any news on the 2010 450r

[KOG]

my 06 keeps falling apart about everytime i go to the track so its time for a new one but i didnt know if i should hold off and wait and see what comes out of 2010 . i could get a good price for like an 08 brand new no use in paying more for the 09 there the same thing

[BlaineKaiser450]

id wait for the 2010. There should be some changes

what makes you say that?:confused:

[Sjorge450R]

Originally posted by KOG
my 06 keeps falling apart about everytime i go to the track so its time for a new one but i didnt know if i should hold off and wait and see what comes out of 2010 . i could get a good price for like an 08 brand new no use in paying more for the 09 there the same thing

why is it falling apart to begin with? I have an 05 and I race all the time (XC and harescrambles) never once has it failed me.... Maintenance is key. If you are an agreesive rider, you are going to need check over the quad after every ride.


for 2010, I hope honda doesnt change much, IMO the trx is the best 450 out there next to the KTM. If you really want to get a new quad, go for the 08 i doubt honda is going to change much.

[Tommy Warren]

I heard they are going to go EFI in 2010 but nothin confirmed yet:o

[BlaineKaiser450]

Originally posted by Tommy Warren
I heard they are going to go EFI in 2010 but nothin confirmed yet:o thats what i was thinking

[rideredms#44]

i keep the maint up om mine! thats just it your racing xc not mx i never had any problems with mine either untill i started racing mx. they need a more mx ready quad, they definatley arent able to stand up to the abuse of mx. im on my second frame and this one is gussteted and its cracking. i really hope that they do change them in some ways. if so ill have the first one that we get here at work.

[hondaracing_13]

I was told in school that all Honda's would be EFI in 2010.

[DEERCHOOPER]

Originally posted by rideredms#44
i keep the maint up om mine! thats just it your racing xc not mx i never had any problems with mine either untill i started racing mx. they need a more mx ready quad, they definatley arent able to stand up to the abuse of mx. im on my second frame and this one is gussteted and its cracking. i really hope that they do change them in some ways. if so ill have the first one that we get here at work.

there not going to change the frame for mx. just the arms and axle

[MX450]

I would just got a good deal on a left over 08 KICKSTART, gusset the frame, put a good set of LT suspenion all around, and try to ride smoother. Eventually you will still crack the frame but if your not casing jumps, or bottoming out all the time, and you have good suspension setup for you and your bike, i bet your frame will last longer.

I agree the frame sux, but the bike is great once you build it up.

Also, dont listen too much to folks on here claiming they know something is coming out... it happens EVERY year and EVERY year they are wrong!!

[Tommy Warren]

I'm not claiming anything...
I'm just spreading the word about what I heard.

I'm a poet and I didn't know it!!

[matt14c]

They will probably put yellow fenders on it since they havent done that on the 450 yet. Then they will put some really really cool new stylish graphics on it!!!

[k265r]

Originally posted by matt14c
They will probably put yellow fenders on it since they havent done that on the 450 yet. Then they will put some really really cool new stylish graphics on it!!!

that would be sweet since my 06 hondas are still pulling the holeshots and winning races.

[sparks 450]

people keep bashing honda for not updating enough but if you build it right in the first place you dont have to. only miner changes are needed.They are still winning races and championships and selling a ton of quads. just as they did with the 1986-1989 250r.

[andrewt]

I hope honda DOESEN'T change. They've got a good thing going for them. If they set up a bike for mx with better shocks, 50 inch scance a arms and axel and put on motocross tires they'll be the same overpriced bike as everone else. Efi isn't a bennifit and just adds to the weight and cost of the machine. if they do all this they'll make the bike unaffordable to most and the guys that can afford it will just pull the stuff they "improved" off so they can put on their sponsors stuff. If you got something that works don't work on it til it doesne't, that's my opinion.

If they do change it up they should atleast do like ktm and can am and make an mx version and an xc or regular version.

[Jersey450R]

I think we will see the realtively unchanged 450R for a few more years to come. Of course...the graphics.

[mad715]

It will either look like the 400ex with efi or same thing with efi and just $500+ more! Just my guess!

[kawabunga]

Originally posted by rideredms#44
they definatley arent able to stand up to the abuse of mx.

Then why are there 3 Honda's in the top 10 for points this season thus far?

[fastredrider44]

I've raced mx and xc. XC is definatley harder on equipment than mx, however mx is harder on frames. You race a fourwheeler, prepare for stuff to break.:)

[duneboy64]

i have the 08..too amazing for words..i race flat track/tt so i don't have to worry about framme much, maybe a few grinds of the track and thats it but it holds up to that, i love the bike soo much i hope they don't change anything it is the best 450 out there, if actually maintain your bike, it wont break down, has always worked for me

[ThumPIN_450R]

Originally posted by kawabunga
Then why are there 3 Honda's in the top 10 for points this season thus far?

probably because they ride brand new machines every time out and don't have to get worn out to the point that they break every race.

[gcart2]

Originally posted by rideredms#44
i keep the maint up om mine! thats just it your racing xc not mx i never had any problems with mine either untill i started racing mx. they need a more mx ready quad, they definatley arent able to stand up to the abuse of mx. im on my second frame and this one is gussteted and its cracking. i really hope that they do change them in some ways. if so ill have the first one that we get here at work.

i run mx with my 05. no problems yet. bent my dominator axle but other than that im still good.

[631kfx400]

i think there will be a stock version and an mx version

[RIDEREDson]

^^ I'm with this guy. They need a base model, and a race ready 450r thats 50 in. wide to compete with Suzuki.

[exrider12]

There aren't going to be many updates or any at all. Honda cancelled their dealer show due to economical reasons..:rolleyes:

Trust me I'd love to see an updated 450r but I don't think it's going to happen..

[MX450]

Originally posted by ThumPIN_450R
probably because they ride brand new machines every time out and don't have to get worn out to the point that they break every race.

so you think that hondas are the only ones that end up breaking all the time:rolleyes:

they ALL do if you ride hard enough and alot, suzuki, kawi, yam, can-am, honda ALL of them!

[ALAMX37]

Originally posted by ThumPIN_450R
probably because they ride brand new machines every time out and don't have to get worn out to the point that they break every race.


You couldn't buy a clue. Look at every class. Honda's are amazing bikes plain and simple/ Good luck finding a more reliable rave proven machine.

[54warrior]

Originally posted by hondaracing_13
I was told in school that all Honda's would be EFI in 2010.

I heard from a neighbor who talked to a guy down the street, who talked to someone at the Post Office, that they were gonna be Fuel Injected. :devil:

[BEAVER.989]

ATV Action seems to think they will be. There is a test of the '09 450R in the newest issue and they make mention of the fact that the new CRF450R bikes have fuel injection and the 2010 quads probably will, as well.

[Snipe]

I dont know much about EFI on a quad but if there anything like EFI on a car it would be a waste of Fn money!

As with any racer knows that when modding with EFI going into serious mods you have to change the EFI controller and that isnt cheap as buying $20 worth of jets to get it right it goes into buying a couple $300 controllers to see what one works best.

Carb motors IMO can simply be modded so much easier and with less money. Dont get me wrong you can get more power out of a EFI motor but you spend alot more to do it.

[crixal]

everyone already knows what controller works best and it's $350. what's another couple hundred dollars for a pc3/5 when you get instant throttle response? efi>carb for me.

[riles88g]

honda is prob not going to change anything soon. but everyone else is. so when honda does come into the efi or somthing like that they can look at the other companies, what worked what didnt and so on. same thing theyv been doing. building srtong ,model after model. its like this. quality not quanity.

[RobRacing]

EFI is the way to go. You can't tune a carb on the fly like an EFI does. I was against the concept when it first came out as well but just think of how much more consistent EFI is than a carb. They may require more when modding a machine but the EFI will be perfect in the morning for practice, be perfect midday for the first moto and be perfect in the evening for the second moto and all you had to do was start the machine! You really can't get much better than that!

[hondaracing_13]

EPA rules is what the push is all about. EFI runs cleaner then carbs and with less emissions. That was what killed 2 stroke's and is now taking down carbs too.

[slosh13]

2010 Trx450r WILL have full injection. One of the top ATV pros who rides for Honda and lives close says the Honda will have EFI. Also in 2010, if you have the new Honda and you race in pro-am, you will not be allowed to swap the EFI for a carb like the suzuki's in years past.

[dirtcrasher]

If the EFI is BULLETPROOF, then I'm all for it. Jetting can be a real PITA but it's simple, it works and and you don't have to worry about electronics being a fuel issue. EDIT - Don't we ALL hate little plastic MYSTERY boxes that wires go into?? :D

It's where it's all going whether we like it or not. All these sensors and switches, I'm surprised they haven't made a small dash with RPM, speed, oil pressure etc etc because basically were all riding miniature Toyota trucks disguised as quads :) LOL

Although we all learn within a couple months after purchase of any inherent OEM design failures; as far as breakdown issues go (on ANY model), my thoughts are:

Get good suspension! and have it set for your weight and riding style. Landing flat with stock boingers is gonna break, crack and stress something else.

Maintain the machine, keep that airfilter spotless, grease it, adjust it, test it and keep your chain lubed and adjusted.

I have ridden with guys that are FAST, and thats' what they're awesome at - going FAST :devil: They don't lube chains, check and change oil, clean and grease swinger bearings; they just do what they do best - GO FAST!

The guys that adjust there valves, take things apart, clean and lube them end up having a smoother, faster and more reliable machine than the person that just beats the snot out of everything.....

Maintenance is cheap, repair is expensive :grr:

[kyleschonert]

This is coming from somebody that has a quad with EFI, its not all that its cracked up to be. Lately on a another forum people are having trouble with their Fuel Pressure Regulator going out, which is a $150 part. Also, this thing has tons of wires which adds more weight, and more head ache. Don't get me wrong, I like my Suzuki and the throttle response from the EFI, but sometimes it can be a headache. I wish I had the money to put an ATP carb kit on it.

[Baxter]

It may only be but I own a 04 450r and always looking for deals on parts. There is quite a few big dealers selling parts for 04 -09 TRXs what I would say too cheap. Just a thought!:devil:

[Dave400ex]

No one knows what is going to happen, but they NEED big changes. Enough of the "they still win races" crap. Everyone says that every year. They need changes regardless of how they are doing on the track. Ballance won championships on the YFZ and Yamaha didn't say, he keeps winning, no need to change. Bottom line they need changes. EFI or not I don't care, but work on the frame and rear shock/linkage setup. Make the motor beefier. I would like to see a twin piston rear caliper. Maybe have some type of mud/rock guards inside the front wheels like Yamaha does.

[coryatver]

I seriously hope they don't change anything. There is a lot of little things that would be awesome if they changed but it is easy to fix by yourself and most people wouldn't even notice and would just raise the price. The best thing the Honda has going for it right now is the price and that it is narrow.

Sorry but most people buying quads are not going to race MX. 50 inch wide and 18 inch tires stock is stupid. The market for quads that come that way they don't even leave those parts stock anyway.

If they put EFI crap on it next year my next quad will be a KTM with a carb. only benefit for efi is the epa emission crap. Other than that for the average joe carbs are an advantage in every way.

[GoldenRider450r]

I agree with you. I hope Honda doesnt change anything for the trx in 2010. They have proven reliable and tough IMO. I mean sure they have changed little things from 04 to 09 like tires, headlight, plastics, ect. I think the EFI system is inevitable for the trx and I know it will make it a better quad but the EFI system cant be tuned/adjusted as simply as a carb.

[BakerRacing40]

well one thing is for certain .. ok well in my opinion i don't think honda is going to rush any thing .. they want to make sure it right before release instead of just throwing it out there.. i've never ridden an efi quad so i can't say ones better than the other on that spectrum.. but until the manufacturer supplies software with full ecm access for free when you purchase i'll just keep my ol carb-a-nators..

[GoldenRider450r]

Ive ridden the EFI 450's (kfx and ltr) along with the new raptor 700r and they have a slightly snappier throttle response. Other then that, none of those quads did anything better then my trx. With a little bit of money, the trx could have a snappier throttle (in fact I feel that the trx has the best bottom end IMO). for myself, I do not like other people working on my quads and I am not a huge fan of bringing my quads to the dealerships. Its much cheaper to work on it yourself. As for the new EFI systems, ONLY the dealerships can tamper with those and parts for those systems are pretty pricey. For those reasons, I will stick to my carb.

[ThePhantomRider]

There will be major changes in the 2010 450r. EFI is still up in the air at this time but you will not just get BNG and color choices. Here's the catch, it will be a 2010 if the economy starts to rebound and sales improve. If not, then it will be a 2011. Changes to the frame, suspension and bodywork are for sure, as for the motor, like I said it's likely to have the new 450 in it, but they haven't decided if going EFI just yet is the right thing to do but it is being tested.

You heard it here, 2010 at the earliest, if sales are flat, 2011.

TPR

[Scro]

Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
There will be major changes in the 2010 450r. EFI is still up in the air at this time but you will not just get BNG and color choices. Here's the catch, it will be a 2010 if the economy starts to rebound and sales improve. If not, then it will be a 2011. Changes to the frame, suspension and bodywork are for sure, as for the motor, like I said it's likely to have the new 450 in it, but they haven't decided if going EFI just yet is the right thing to do but it is being tested.

You heard it here, 2010 at the earliest, if sales are flat, 2011.

TPR

I guess we can wait on 2011 then, with the boneheads in D.C. running this place.:scary:

[whitebros400]

Well it looks like i am getting a yfz450r then

[MX MaNiAc 06]

I think an MX package would be in their best interest. But if it doesn't change I won't lose any sleep over it. It's a good machine. Hell, if none of these quads progress from where they're at.. I'm happy. The progression of these 450s is unreal. Who the hell knows what's next!

[450ice]

i just pray they keep the carb, no need to change

[quadboy-55]

yeah, i have my fingers crossed for a carb in 2010 too! they'll prolly make a new S.E model. like the balck and blue last year, and the really hot orange white 09.

EFI is great... on a car, but not on a quad. im regestered on another site too, LT-********, and the EFI's they put in quads WONT adjust for altitude or air pressure, its just a carburator with a ton of wires and an injector. (not exactly but you know what i mean) true, they do have and o2 sensor but thats it, it doesnt adjust much. i have had quite a few problems with the ''quads of tommorow'' and there EFI, wich is why im hoping to swich back on to a Honda, built like a brick and i hope it stays that way.

Honda probably knows that EFI's are no good on a quad and thats why they, like KTM are keeping a carb.

hell, i think adjusting a carb is way easier than EFI. jet and go. i hate plugging in a lap-top. and downloads never are acurate. $350 for a dyno and $350 for a controller. or 10 bucks for jets.

heres what happened to my LT-R not too long ago.

broke 3rd gear, starter broke, all electrical connections started smoking.

thats enough to swich any one back to a carb and kicker anyday!!

[Scro]

Originally posted by quadboy-55

Honda probably knows that EFI's are no good on a quad and thats why they, like KTM are keeping a carb.



I agree with you, but EFI is on the way. The bikes are EFI, the quads are soon to follow.

[OzLinc]

Originally posted by quadboy-55
yeah, i have my fingers crossed for a carb in 2010 too! they'll prolly make a new S.E model. like the balck and blue last year, and the really hot orange white 09.

EFI is great... on a car, but not on a quad. im regestered on another site too, LT-********, and the EFI's they put in quads WONT adjust for altitude or air pressure, its just a carburator with a ton of wires and an injector. (not exactly but you know what i mean) true, they do have and o2 sensor but thats it, it doesnt adjust much. i have had quite a few problems with the ''quads of tommorow'' and there EFI, wich is why im hoping to swich back on to a Honda, built like a brick and i hope it stays that way.

Honda probably knows that EFI's are no good on a quad and thats why they, like KTM are keeping a carb.

hell, i think adjusting a carb is way easier than EFI. jet and go. i hate plugging in a lap-top. and downloads never are acurate. $350 for a dyno and $350 for a controller. or 10 bucks for jets.

heres what happened to my LT-R not too long ago.

broke 3rd gear, starter broke, all electrical connections started smoking.

thats enough to swich any one back to a carb and kicker anyday!!

WOW......what a rant. Balanced mix of opionion wrapped up as fact, ignorance and stupidity. Congratulations.

[BlaineKaiser450]

Im hoping for the same quad, but a stronger frame. Thats the only change i'd make

[quadboy-55]

Originally posted by BlaineKaiser450
Im hoping for the same quad, but a stronger frame. Thats the only change i'd make

yeah, same here bro.


Ozlinc, i dont consider my post as a rant with ''ignorance and stupidity'' just as my two cents, backed up with my personal experence. i dont want to start a fight or start calling names. and i dont want to sway anyone on a desision between a carb and EFI. im happy with the EFI in my truck, but i dont think the ATV or dirt bike world is ready untill they get some more R&D in there and a MAF sensor.

Suzuki had this some issue adapting EFI to there bikes, they ended up swiching to a carb for the remainder of the year before fixing first year issues.
i believe it was with there 450 line.

either way, if i end up with a TRX450R or keep my LT-R450 im happy with both.

[OzLinc]

Originally posted by quadboy-55


Ozlinc, i dont consider my post as a rant with ''ignorance and stupidity'' just as my two cents, backed up with my personal experence.

I have to commend you in answering my post in a far more tactfull way that I did.

So I will explain. In your first post you stated that........

"It doesn't adjust for altitude or air pressure".......in fact thats the only thing it does adjust for.

"they do have and o2 sensor but thats it".............no they don't

you "broke 3rd gear"..........nothing to do with fuel injection

"starter broke"....................nothing to do with fuel injection

"all electrical connections started smoking"...........may or may not be fuel injection - thats an electrical short that any quad could have.

"you want kick start"...............nothing to do with fuel injection

"i think adjusting a carb is way easier than EFI"........rant & opinion

"i hate plugging in a lap-top"............rant & stupid (how did you post on atvriders)

"downloads never are acurate"...........rant & stupid

"$350 for a dyno".................................you dont have to dyno a FI quad to tune it. It will be better if you do but same goes with a carbied quad.

"$350 for a controller".................You can get controllers much cheaper than $350

"or 10 bucks for jets"................................., $10 for jets is only if you get it right the first time and never change or upgrade your engine.

RANT, IGNORANT & STUPID.............I don't think you got one thing right; if you told me your name I wouldn't beleive you.

Some people talk about Fuel Injection like it's the devils work.........ooooooohhhhhhhh................rock n' roll............the devils music.

no!, you just dont get it.

Linc

[ThePhantomRider]

Originally posted by BlaineKaiser450
Im hoping for the same quad, but a stronger frame. Thats the only change i'd make

That's pretty accurate. Better frame, improved suspension and handling and maybe the new motor.

What you can bet on, is that Honda is looking closer at the KTM than the other 450's. KTM built a great bike and didn't go alloy and EFI. Will Honda eventually go EFI, I think they all will, but maybe not just yet.

TPR

[quadboy-55]

Originally posted by OzLinc
I have to commend you in answering my post in a far more tactfull way that I did.

So I will explain. In your first post you stated that........

"It doesn't adjust for altitude or air pressure".......in fact thats the only thing it does adjust for.

"they do have and o2 sensor but thats it".............no they don't

you "broke 3rd gear"..........nothing to do with fuel injection

"starter broke"....................nothing to do with fuel injection

"all electrical connections started smoking"...........may or may not be fuel injection - thats an electrical short that any quad could have.

"you want kick start"...............nothing to do with fuel injection

"i think adjusting a carb is way easier than EFI"........rant & opinion

"i hate plugging in a lap-top"............rant & stupid (how did you post on atvriders)

"downloads never are acurate"...........rant & stupid

"$350 for a dyno".................................you dont have to dyno a FI quad to tune it. It will be better if you do but same goes with a carbied quad.

"$350 for a controller".................You can get controllers much cheaper than $350

"or 10 bucks for jets"................................., $10 for jets is only if you get it right the first time and never change or upgrade your engine.

RANT, IGNORANT & STUPID.............I don't think you got one thing right; if you told me your name I wouldn't beleive you.

Some people talk about Fuel Injection like it's the devils work.........ooooooohhhhhhhh................rock n' roll............the devils music.

no!, you just dont get it.

Linc

wow, some one grew up and put on the daddy pants around here.

well no $h!t a 3rd gear and a kicker have nothing to do with EFI!! im not brain dead.

and just for the record, you dont need to plug, play and adjust fuel mixtures to post on ATV-riders.

and how is saying downloads are never acurate stupid? they never are. go onto LTR450 hq and ask anyone. heres the link.
http://www.********.com/

we're all PEOPLE on here, and i dont want to start anything. i dont know who pi$$ed in youre cerial this morning, so just go and scratch youre @$$ hole and be happy!!

BTW: im just saying that this is whats going on with my quad, doesnt have to be ALL about FI, and why i think Honda shouldnt make any changes any time soon.

just personal bias, and its youre call if its ignorant or not. and right now, youre post looks stupid and ignorant.

im 16 years old and my name is Shaun. my dad passed away just a few months, and right now im not looking for a fight.

heres a link for that story. http://ltr450.theatvchannel.com/invision/index.php?showtopic=7270

[BakerRacing40]

Originally posted by quadboy-55
wow, some one grew up and put on the daddy pants around here.

well no $h!t a 3rd gear and a kicker have nothing to do with EFI!! im not brain dead.

and just for the record, you dont need to plug, play and adjust fuel mixtures to post on ATV-riders.

and how is saying downloads are never acurate stupid? they never are. go onto LTR450 hq and ask anyone. heres the link.
http://www.********.com/

we're all PEOPLE on here, and i dont want to start anything. i dont know who pi$$ed in youre cerial this morning, so just go and scratch youre @$$ hole and be happy!!

BTW: im just saying that this is whats going on with my quad, doesnt have to be ALL about FI, and why i think Honda shouldnt make any changes any time soon.

just personal bias, and its youre call if its ignorant or not. and right now, youre post looks stupid and ignorant.

im 16 years old and my name is Shaun. my dad passed away just a few months, and right now im not looking for a fight.

heres a link for that story. http://ltr450.theatvchannel.com/invision/index.php?showtopic=7270

my condolences to you and your family. i do know what your going through man. i lost my dad six years ago when i was fifteen. june is a hard month for me still to this day, his birthday on the ninth, fathers day is always the week after that, and he passed away on the 28th.
i know this has nothing to do with this post for the honda thing. but just wanted to say it. quadboy-55 shoot me a pm if you need to conversate with someone that's went through a similar situation...

[quadboy-55]

Originally posted by BakerRacing40
my condolences to you and your family. i do know what your going through man. i lost my dad six years ago when i was fifteen. june is a hard month for me still to this day, his birthday on the ninth, fathers day is always the week after that, and he passed away on the 28th.
i know this has nothing to do with this post for the honda thing. but just wanted to say it. quadboy-55 shoot me a pm if you need to conversate with someone that's went through a similar situation...

yeah, june is a hard month. his B-day was august 17th, but all of the father son things happened in the summer. all he wanted was one good summer away from work and it never happened.. :(

Hondarider: THNX for youre support. this is the last thing you ever want to happen. my dad died back when i was 15. im 16 sice the 27th of april. so that means if i die at like 90 then i will have only known my dad for 1/6th of my entire life, and i gotta tell you, that really does suck!!

[ProspectorJim]

Originally posted by quadboy-55
yeah, i have my fingers crossed for a carb in 2010 too! they'll prolly make a new S.E model. like the balck and blue last year, and the really hot orange white 09.

EFI is great... on a car, but not on a quad. im regestered on another site too, LT-********, and the EFI's they put in quads WONT adjust for altitude or air pressure, its just a carburator with a ton of wires and an injector. (not exactly but you know what i mean) true, they do have and o2 sensor but thats it, it doesnt adjust much. i have had quite a few problems with the ''quads of tommorow'' and there EFI, wich is why im hoping to swich back on to a Honda, built like a brick and i hope it stays that way.

Honda probably knows that EFI's are no good on a quad and thats why they, like KTM are keeping a carb.

hell, i think adjusting a carb is way easier than EFI. jet and go. i hate plugging in a lap-top. and downloads never are acurate. $350 for a dyno and $350 for a controller. or 10 bucks for jets.

heres what happened to my LT-R not too long ago.

broke 3rd gear, starter broke, all electrical connections started smoking.

thats enough to swich any one back to a carb and kicker anyday!!


Actually once the PC5 comes out you can get an 02 sensor with it that will auto adjust to give you the best fuel/air mixture for any engine set up and altitude.

[Quadevil]

Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
What you can bet on, is that Honda is looking closer at the KTM than the other 450's. KTM built a great bike and didn't go alloy and EFI.

Honda is smart ;)

[quadboy-55]

X2

Originally posted by ProspectorJim
Actually once the PC5 comes out you can get an 02 sensor with it that will auto adjust to give you the best fuel/air mixture for any engine set up and altitude.

noooo I hope they dont go o2 sensors. if they make it OBD2 ill beat someone they make things way harder to tune.

[quadboy-55]

yeah, they do look good. the new white/orange/black '09 looks to die for.