Beware!!!!

[dcarter]

Hello all,
I have been away from this forum for a while and this post may be pulled!
I am going to spell out something plain and clear so evewryone will know. I recived a call last week from racer 65 and he told me that bobby and jerry havrett had given him my name as to who they had gotten there slipper clutch from. In talking to him i remembered he owned precision racing and i ask him about the beef he had with les from ext. mini quads last year over a tranny saver being knocked off he said his was different. He told me that he needed a slipper clutch for his sons bike. I was a little bit leary , but i sold him one shipped it overnight last thursday and he got it on friday. Then i got a call from bobby that it was for sale on this forum. She called and ask about it and he said that he was selling it because he had already made some copies of it and he was going to seel them for $350.00. mx 423's dad called and he told him that he chewed my tail last week about the price of the slipper clutch. That is a lie!!!!
This very thing is what bothers me about this industry some people work very hard to develope a product then other people come along and knock it off.
I like every one in this sport who takes the time to spend with there kids and do all they can to put them on good products. i know times are hard and you have to watch money, but it is bottom feeders like this that make my blood boil!! if i am out of line sorry!! dave

[Bill Lemans]

That is certainly distressing. I can understand him making one for himself to use, but this is kinda like crapping where you eat:rolleyes: All the help and knowledge shared here, that just isn't enough for some people.......not to mention you guys who help keep minis moving forward.
I really hope it's not true :(

[mxdad423]

Dave you are not out of line at all, I agree with you 100%. Sure he can sell them for 350.00, Now that you did all of the R&D and testing, He has nothing in it but buying the parts and copying your work, just as he did with Less.
If these were so easy to figure out and build WHY didn't he build them before, WHY did he have to buy one of your's so he could KNOCK IT OFF. Here let me answer that one for you, BECAUSE he couldn't do it without seeing yours, just like most of his other KNOCKED OFF PRODUCTS.
Some people are builders and fabricators, some are WANNA BE builders and fabricators, wanna be meaning they need other peoples work to copy, I think we know wich one's are the WANNA BE's.
Dave don't let WANNA BE's discourage you, sure they might sell there product a little cheaper, but is the quality going to be there? No it won't, I live by the words YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. I have bought many products from you over the years, He** Brandon's Kasea isn't even a Kasea, it's a DC/WRH quad. Out of many differant sets of A-arms, swing arms, steering stems, ect ect. that we have bought from you over the last 5 or 6 years we have never had one issue, always been TOP NOTCH products. It's guys like you and Billy that keep these kids on the track winning and safe.
Here let me put this in to prospective, if you had a product that cost 1000.00 and this guy built the same product ( that he copied from you) and he was selling if for 100.00 I would spend the 1000.00 and buy from you. Some may say well why would you want to spend 1000.00 instead of 100.00, the answer, because I know that what I am buying from Dave is authenic and quality, not knocked off, and because I know Dave cares about my son being safe, and because I know if I have an issue and I'm at the track Dave will make sure it's taken care of before the next moto, and I could go on and on, but I don't think I need to, I believe my point has been made.
So anyway, Dave you just keep up the GREAT work you do and don't worry about the WANNA BE's, every dog has his day.

Kevin Smitley

[mxdad423]

Originally posted by Bill Lemans
That is certainly distressing. I can understand him making one for himself to use, but this is kinda like crapping where you eat:rolleyes: All the help and knowledge shared here, that just isn't enough for some people.......not to mention you guys who help keep minis moving forward.
I really hope it's not true :(

Oh believe me it's true, I was on the other end of the phone with him and it came directly out of his mouth that he copied Dave's and he has them on the market, this is not here say, this is straight from the horses mouth.

Kevin Smitley

[mini racer #39]

Thank you knockoff guy... I don't know who you are but I Jerry Havert will no longer tell anyone any parts were using...and to all the people who save, sacrifice,w ork overtime etc. to give their kids good quality parts from small specialty shops thanks keep it up. If you don't have your own idea don't steal, yes steal, someone else's idea because you steal there hard work, research, development and product improvement etc. So again thank you knockoff guy for making it hard for all small shops with good products everywhere!
Jerry Havert PS. see me at sunset so i can tell you the rest of what i think

[Pappy]

1st, there is no reason to pull your thread or remove it.

2nd, you have every right to be upset...BUT....if the product wasn't protected by copyright or patent then you havent a leg to stand on beyond being mad.

3rd, werent there alot of folks talking up the new flex bars from atvfourplay that were in every essecence a copy of flexxbars? Im not singling any one person out, but on this forum alone folks were excited to have a competing product that was cheaper. Just an observation...seems whats good for the goose isnt always good for the gander....

Youre correct, industry(thats across the board worldwide) as a whole is evil, but if you dont take the steps needed to protect yoruself, your products and your creation then youre wide open for this kind of thing to happen.

Hopefully you had the forthought to apply for a patent and have legal means to distrupt or deny any copies.

[JAG Motosports]

Not surprised to hear that Dave....Just from this forum alone I would never buy from Racer 65.... We also run all your stuff on both our quads and am very happy with it and never had an issue :D Ken

[Ryko racing]

I do not know RACER 65 but i do know Dave, he is always accomodating to talk and help even if you ride another brand, keep it up Dave.

People will come and go but true decent people will always be around to help...to the others KHARMA will take care of them....

We hope everyone has a safe trip this weekend.

[etondaddy]

Whats a matter Dave didn't you think the gravy train would end. Now people have a choice......choice drives the market price down so Joe the plumber can buy a clutch for his kids quad with out breaking the bank. If he's making money at $350.00 whats that tell yea. Just my two cents.:devil: :blah:


Floyd R. Turbo......in rebuttal

[edwardsp&b]

hey guys just go back and read racer65's post's. i agree with ken, just from reading what he says on this forum i wouldnt buy from him. i feel sure that if you do, and have a problem, he wont be their to back that product up. i not super wealthy but i will spend more money on products from somebody i like, than to get a deal from somebody i dont.
bryan

[Bowhunter69]

One of the fathers at are track bought one of your Slipper Clutchs for 650.00 from you. With about 75.00 worth of LT80 parts in it and 2 machined parts you could have sold it for less and sold a ton of them. But instead you charged so much it made it easy for someone to under cut you and still make hundred bucks for their pocket. Maybe you should have made only a couple of hundred in profit instead of 500 in profit.

[marsrace2]

If you read his post in the Classifieds it says he is selling it because his son crashed and he needs to pay medical bills. This all seems a little fishy to me. The one thing I would really be mad about is if he is selling his own version claiming that it is the DC.

[rookiewrench]

It seems to me that I would be upset too if I just lost my cash cow. Selling things at a high mark up and then being upset when someone sells them for a lesser price, If people would make a fair buck off of their product and not try to overcharge you may sell more and people may not try to copy you. I understand that there is some design or fab time involved but I do not see the cause for the price. If I had to guess someone is going to go to Taiwan and have them make it for pennies on the dollar. Its a good thing you made your money early.

I guess long story short I agree with etondaddy.

[dcarter]

well i like all the replies, yes fair market prices should be expected. I spent 4 months designing and testing this product at my cost and time. If you think my prices are to high that's okay. If someone builds a product as good for less money then that's fine. the problem i have is when some one lies to me and other people like mx 423's dad and thries to make a quick buck off of the hard work i put into something. but that's life i know. I simply posted this so people would know what is happening. I did not patten this because a simple 10% change is all needed to get around that.
I like to think that all the work i do at the track on other peoples bike's pays off, i spend more time helping evey one at the track and less time on my own son's bikes. Yes i did put a clutch and tranny gears in wards bike at the track, but you should also know he had not completed a moto this year to this point. His dad ask me to do this and i did. Ron his mechanic was not there yet with truck trouble so i tried to help him out. Guess what he raced the rest of the weekend with no tranny failures and completed every moto.
Last year at lorretta's castin's bike broke in half, his father and i did not see eye to eye all year. He was also riding for atv four play, when justin came to me i looked at the bike and gave my thoughts on what it would take to fix it. then tom from atv four play came over and wanted to fix it so i let him use my trailer, welder and recources to fix the bike so this young man could race, i do not want to see any young rider not get to ride.
I try to help all people out and enjoy doing it, but it cost to do this. If people think i am getting rich, i will show them my check book, haha . any way thanks for all the post's i value all the opinions and hope to see evey one at the races. thanks dave

[kartracer8j]

Hey guys , I just thought I would let everyone know that I have dealt with racer65 alot locally and I have never had a problem at all . Everything he has sold me has been decent , never had a problem that he did not back ! I don't know of anything being copied , but their is alot of products on the market that are very similar , which leads to alot of choices and prices ( sounds good to me ! ) . As for his son being hurt - I see he got a dnf at the mx race at Dutchman on Sunday ...... so maybe instead of bad mouthing everyone before anybody really knows , maybe we can find out some facts . .. thanks Jamie Fink

The facts have already been found wether you know it or not.

[wvspeedfreak]

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s106/wvspeedfreak/smileypopcorneating.gif

[quadrider79]

His son did have a pretty bad crash on Sunday in the 90cvt class at the start. Badly sprained knee and on crutches for a few days.

[mxdad423]

Originally posted by kartracer8j
Hey guys , I just thought I would let everyone know that I have dealt with racer65 alot locally and I have never had a problem at all . Everything he has sold me has been decent , never had a problem that he did not back ! I don't know of anything being copied , but their is alot of products on the market that are very similar , which leads to alot of choices and prices ( sounds good to me ! ) . As for his son being hurt - I see he got a dnf at the mx race at Dutchman on Sunday ...... so maybe instead of bad mouthing everyone before anybody really knows , maybe we can find out some facts . .. thanks Jamie Fink


Yes your right his son did get hurt, that was never questioned, Again I spoke to him on the phone and I know what he told me, he bought Dave's clutch, copied it, and is now marketing them, THAT IS THE FACTS, so I think you need to get more facts yourself.
As far as everything else I have missed on here while I was working, I agree there is nothing wrong with having choices, but I do have a HUGE problem with somebody that isn't smart enough to create something of their own so they stoop down to KNOCKING OFF somebody elses hard work and then lying to somebody they THINK is a potential customer by bad mouthing the person that put the effort and hard work in creating what they are now trying to sell. That is just down right ignorant and gutless. I know most of the products that he sells and I know for a fact that they are almost all knock offs of other peoples work.
Dave just keep your head up and keep building all the great products that you build, you will always have good customers out there that want the best. You got my card number on file, send me one of everything I don't have, if there is anything I don't have, HA HA. H*ll send it to me even if I already have it, I will put it in the trailer for all the other guys that are running the knocked off junk so when they break I will have the good stuff on stock to get them back on the track.......

Kevin Smitley

[Nichols Atvs]

Originally posted by wvspeedfreak
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s106/wvspeedfreak/smileypopcorneating.gif


Cool pic wvspeedfreak:D :D

[jread14]

Originally posted by Nichols Atvs
Cool pic wvspeedfreak:D :D

HAHAHA!!!! I cracked up when I saw it as well!!!

Cheesman... I think the the kart guy is just trying to give us an idea of what racer 65's rep is around where they live... I dont think he is questioning what others are saying but just trying to give light to the fact that he has had good luck with him.... So questioning his rep is not what this is about... Needless to say, lets not jump people for speeking their mind on the facts that they have been made privy too...

I love DC products and both of my boys bikes are decked out with every long travel, and clutch mod he offers. So, I am not in favor of what is going on here. This type of stuff is what takes a great mind like Daves away from the mini world and to the big quad world.

[LT80]

I don't blame Mr.Carter for being upset.
It's disappointing but common.
A giant name in the industry has copied my motor work. The Midwest-mini guy got a motor from me, immediately disassembled it and made a C&C program for the head, at least he told me. A shop in Kansas sold a cylinder that I did and claimed that he did the work. He did keep the small bore motor I built to scream around Lil Sahara, guess what,,he built that one too.
Sour grapes my friend. Might as well get used to it, I had to.


On the other side of it, I've been contacted by many about the LT80 slipper clutchs being modded to fit the Tiawan stuff. Hope ya'll don't mind if I build a few. :devil:

[stoopidbot]

Yeah it sucks but that is business. With no patent or copyright, it is not your design. You may have come up with it but you don't own the design. Look at the Dynatek CDI boxes. For the UTV market they have nearly a 25% fail rate. Do you have any idea how many companies sell the exact same box with different stickers on it?

[THARNESS]

If it is true that racer65 stole Dave's idea and is now profiting from it, then he is a true lowlife. If any one buys his stuff knowing what he did, than they are no better than him.

Let's forget about the slipper clutch for a moment, and think about everything that Dave does for the sport of miniquad racing. Every race I see quads lined up at his trailer to be worked on so thier kids can make the next moto. Dave always helps, no matter how late or early it is, or how tired it is, or what needs to be done to his own kids bikes. He always tries to help everybody. Think about all of the stuff he has come up with over the years that have made our kids quads safer, faster and more reliable.

Where would alot of you be right now without Dave Carter? My boys wouldn't be racing without him. He has done so much for our sport.

Dave is a very talented person. He has lots of offers from people outside or the atv industry to make alot of money. He continues to design and build atv parts because he loves this sport and all the riders and families that go with it.

If we continue to support people who steal from him by buying thier knocked off stuff I don't know how much more Dave is going to put up with. He does this because he wants to. He dosen't have to. It wouldn't suprise me at all if Dave gets fed up and does something else. Then where would alot of us be. I guess theres always baseball.

We should all show our support by purchasing quality original products, and by not buying anything from a thief.

[stoopidbot]

You know, I don't know either guy. I'm not doubting that Dave is a great guy and it certainly sucks. But you better believe that if I'm looking for a part and guy A. designed them and sells them for 650 bucks, or guy B. copied the exact design and sells them for 300 bucks less; even 50 bucks less...that's a no brainer. I work hard for my money, I won't give it away.

[THARNESS]

Originally posted by stoopidbot
You know, I don't know either guy. I'm not doubting that Dave is a great guy and it certainly sucks. But you better believe that if I'm looking for a part and guy A. designed them and sells them for 650 bucks, or guy B. copied the exact design and sells them for 300 bucks less; even 50 bucks less...that's a no brainer. I work hard for my money, I won't give it away.

If a 60 inch plasma is $1000 at the store, but some guy pulls up with some in his truck for $300. You know they are hot. What do you do. People steal tv's because they know there is a market. They also steal designs because there is a market. If there were no market for stolen stuff there would be no thefts.

Right is right and wrong is wrong. There is no gray area as far as I'n concerned

[stoopidbot]

No I wouldn't buy a stolen TV nor would I buy I stolen ATV part. The part had no patent or copyright therefore it is no theft.

It happens everyday in aftermarket parts. Someone makes the part and sells it for a while and makes killer sales and then his design is copied by of MFGs and they sell the same thing for less. It is no gray area.

When Black Rhino Performance puts their sticker on a Dynatek CDI box and sells it for less...is that stealing?

[rookiewrench]

Dave did what everyone else would do, he sold a product for what the market would bare. If he wants to continue to sell the product he may have to lower his price. I think that I would spend more for the product from someone I know but I don't think that I would spend double.

I wish Dave nothing but the best because I know many people that he has helped out at the track and probably more that he will continue to help.

I am not sure I agree with the entire stole tv comparison because someone is still having to produce a product but I see what you are getting at.

[etondaddy]

It's the American way....supply and demand, Dave saw a demand and come up with the supply and charged what he thought the market could bare and got away with it as long as he could (still think it was to much...but what ever. ) Then a market developed for a cheaper alternative...... how many people have you heard say "man I would like to have a slipper clutch for my kids quad but $650.00 is way to much". DC had to know it was going to happen sooner or later...... it happens with everything every day. The part I don't like is you sell a bunch of them at that crazy number then cry when someone comes out with a cheaper one. And another thing they've been using that set up in TT racing before DC came out with his. Once again just my option. :devil: :blah:


Mike Kozura

[THARNESS]

Originally posted by etondaddy
It's the American way....supply and demand, Dave saw a demand and come up with the supply and charged what he thought the market could bare and got away with it as long as he could (still think it was to much...but what ever. ) Then a market developed for a cheaper alternative...... how many people have you heard say "man I would like to have a slipper clutch for my kids quad but $650.00 is way to much". DC had to know it was going to happen sooner or later...... it happens with everything every day. The part I don't like is you sell a bunch of them at that crazy number then cry when someone comes out with a cheaper one. And another thing they've been using that set up in TT racing before DC came out with his. Once again just my option. :devil: :blah:


Mike Kozura

Is it the American way to lie and steal to try to get ahead? Not where I come from Mike.

[etondaddy]

The part that makes me mad is they set the dude up like a bowling pin having someone call him........that's when dude talked to much



Mike Kozura

[etondaddy]

Originally posted by THARNESS
Is it the American way to lie and steal to try to get ahead? Not where I come from Mike.
Not tring to be a smart a** here.............but yes it's the American way nice guys always finish last....... it's sad but true my friend. If they would have been like $400.0 or so none of this would have happened.




Mike Kozura

[THARNESS]

Originally posted by etondaddy
The part that makes me mad is they set the dude up like a bowling pin having someone call him........that's when dude talked to much



Mike Kozura

The person who was "set up" was Dave. This guy calls him and says he would like to have one for his son's bike, when his intent was to steal the design.

Anyway, I've said my piece.

Hope everyone traveling to Illinois this weekend has a safe trip.

Have fun and be safe out there guys, I hope to see everyone at Steel City if Ryan is healed up by then.

See ya,

[JAG Motosports]

I personally think the way Racer 65 went about it was chicken sh*t, but....like it or not....right or wrong....it's the nature of the beast.

[mxdad423]

Mr. Harness you said it all, I couldn't of said it better myself. That is theft the way I look at it, Like Dave said why put a pattent on it when it only take a 10% change to get around it, H*ll you could probably do that by changing the color or something stupid like that.
No he was NOT set up, I was going to buy the part from him just to get Dave's out of his hands, but because of his poor attitude I basically told him to stick it. So again he was NOT set up, he lost his own sale. I do not like a thief and a liar and that is what he is in my book.

Kevin Smitley

[etondaddy]

Originally posted by mxdad423
Mr. Harness you said it all, I couldn't of said it better myself. That is theft the way I look at it, Like Dave said why put a pattent on it when it only take a 10% change to get around it, H*ll you could probably do that by changing the color or something stupid like that.
No he was NOT set up, I was going to buy the part from him just to get Dave's out of his hands, but because of his poor attitude I basically told him to stick it. So again he was NOT set up, he lost his own sale. I do not like a thief and a liar and that is what he is in my book.

Kevin Smitley
$650.00 for a part you have about $200.00 in I call that a blank. Never shipping parts when they say there going to I call that a blank............ fill in the blanks. Have a nice day Kevin hope your having as much fun as I am with this.:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:

I have to make more popcorn............

Mike Kozura

[qcitytile]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by etondaddy
[B]The part that makes me mad is they set the dude up like a bowling pin having someone call him........that's when dude talked to much






Whats the difference in what racer65 did in buying one to copy that sounds like a set up. Its one thing to copy something for personal use but to make a profit on somebody else expense is another I would never buy from him just because that proves hes a shady guy.

[mcwilly]

However you feel about it, it says a lot about a persons character to do what racer65 is accused of.
The fact that he hasnt replied to this post speaks volumes as well.
I don’t know jack squat when it come's to fabricating a product so I cant argue either way about the prices it costs to make one. I'd love to have a slipper clutch, but current finances wont allow it…..but even if I did have the cash, my money would be spent on Dave's product - even at the higher price. If what racer65 did is true, it's just ANOTHER reason why I'll never do business with him. His previous actions, replies, and attitude alone on this board made up my mind a long time ago to never do business with him.

[stoopidbot]

Let's call the product "chicken soup". Let's say Dave invented chicken soup and did not put any kind of patent on it or a copyright, Then Campbell's, Progresso, and a bunch of other companies use the same recipe to make their soup and sell it for less than what Dave was...is that stealing? No, it's marketing.

[Bowhunter69]

Dave, I was wondering what the cost of the 2 parts you make for the kit would be? 650.00 is awful lot for me to spend right now so I got the rest of the kit from BikeBandits for 71.00 shipped to my door. I will be back from Walnut on Monday. Thanks

[Reimer Racing]

Originally posted by Bowhunter69
Dave, I was wondering what the cost of the 2 parts you make for the kit would be? 650.00 is awful lot for me to spend right now so I got the rest of the kit from BikeBandits for 71.00 shipped to my door. I will be back from Walnut on Monday. Thanks

That's an easy one 650.00 :grr: - 71.00 :D = 579.00 :mad: for the 2 parts. :blah:

[etondaddy]

Originally posted by stoopidbot
Let's call the product "chicken soup". Let's say Dave invented chicken soup and did not put any kind of patent on it or a copyright, Then Campbell's, Progresso, and a bunch of other companies use the same recipe to make their soup and sell it for less than what Dave was...is that stealing? No, it's marketing.

10-4 good buddy.......thank you that's the bottom line my friend. The problem is this DC dude has some people bs'd and think there's going to be some kind of pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.



Mike Kozura

[Reimer Racing]

Originally posted by etondaddy
10-4 good buddy.......thank you that's the bottom line my friend. The problem is this DC dude has some people bs'd and think there's going to be some kind of pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.



Mike Kozura

Just might be an empty pot now.

[mxdad423]

Originally posted by etondaddy
$650.00 for a part you have about $200.00 in I call that a blank. Never shipping parts when they say there going to I call that a blank............ fill in the blanks. Have a nice day Kevin hope your having as much fun as I am with this.:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:

I have to make more popcorn............

Mike Kozura


I always have fun when I get to voice my opinion. :D 200.00 in parts, + coming up with how to make it work + time making it work + materials making it work + price of every set of tranny gears you don't have to replace that you was replacing every race (if you were one that had tranny problems and not as fortuate as those who don't) = PRICELESS.......... By the way did you ever price some of the equipment that it take to build some of this stuff? There is alot more involved in building this stuff for these mini's than just the price of parts. Some understand that and some don't. I am one that does. I will spend the extra now on the one I know was done right and will last.because in the end you will spend more replacing the cheap knock off s*it that you have to replace because it broke.

Kevin Smitley

[etondaddy]

Originally posted by mxdad423
I always have fun when I get to voice my opinion. :D 200.00 in parts, + coming up with how to make it work + time making it work + materials making it work + price of every set of tranny gears you don't have to replace that you was replacing every race (if you were one that had tranny problems and not as fortuate as those who don't) = PRICELESS.......... By the way did you ever price some of the equipment that it take to build some of this stuff? There is alot more involved in building this stuff for these mini's than just the price of parts. Some understand that and some don't. I am one that does. I will spend the extra now on the one I know was done right and will last.because in the end you will spend more replacing the cheap knock off s*it that you have to replace because it broke.

Kevin Smitley
First of all the parts used on the knock off clutch as you like to call it are the same parts that are used on the million dollar one........ people are tired of hearing how much his machines cost no one held a gun to his head and made him buy them. If paying to much for stuff makes his followers happy then it makes me happy. And buying all the bs about why it's not shipped yet that's cool.......just do me a big favor if he tells you to drink the purple cool-aid and put a white sheet over your head***** don't do it man*****


Mike Kozura

[riding4fun]

You guys are killing me. ROFL

[stoopidbot]

Originally posted by mxdad423
I always have fun when I get to voice my opinion. :D 200.00 in parts, + coming up with how to make it work + time making it work + materials making it work + price of every set of tranny gears you don't have to replace that you was replacing every race (if you were one that had tranny problems and not as fortuate as those who don't) = PRICELESS.......... By the way did you ever price some of the equipment that it take to build some of this stuff? There is alot more involved in building this stuff for these mini's than just the price of parts. Some understand that and some don't. I am one that does. I will spend the extra now on the one I know was done right and will last.because in the end you will spend more replacing the cheap knock off s*it that you have to replace because it broke.

Kevin Smitley If he copied the design exactly, which is what the argument is over, that makes the 2 parts identical. So wouldn't that mean the Dave's stuff is cheap knock off too? If it's the same thing...

[LT80]

I'm with mike,,Too much is too much especially when another option is there.
I spent an hour figuring out how to make the LT80 rear clutch pack pads throw the opposite direction for your motors.
What was the rocket science to build these?
The only difference between LT80 stuff and the slippers are the shoes put on backwards, the splined part and a spacer.

I bet ya'll go to walmart even tho they just shut down your local store. And it was you that wouldn't pay 50 cents more at the local store.
650 for a clutch,,400 for a mini pipe,...when will the insanity stop?!

[quadrider79]

Here is a way to think about things in this crazy world that we live in today.

Driving down the road your fuel light comes on, you need fuel.
There are two gas stations side by side. One has a price $2.24 per gallon. The other one's price is $1.99 per gallon.

Are you gonna have to think about which station your gonna get your gas. NOPE. Your gonna stop at the one that is the cheapest.

The way things are today if you don't watch for deals and ways to save money, You will sooner or later find your back pocket BROKE.

I'am not knocking anyone here but if I was looking to buy anything, whether it be a car, furniture for a house, tools, and so forth. I would shop around and buy what was cheaper.

[coryatver]

Originally posted by Pappy
3rd, werent there alot of folks talking up the new flex bars from atvfourplay that were in every essecence a copy of flexxbars? Im not singling any one person out, but on this forum alone folks were excited to have a competing product that was cheaper. Just an observation...seems whats good for the goose isnt always good for the gander....



That comparison isn't fair. Flex Bars and ATV four play bars are totally different designs they are not any where close to being the same thing they don't even do the same function just a similar thing.

This guy actually copied the thing exactly which is a totally different situation. It is wrong but if atv four play actually copied flex bars exactly down to each piece looking exactly the same fassst has patents so they would be in big trouble but they just came out with a new design not copy fassst. As far this design there were no patents so you are out of luck. Still its pretty unethical and messed up what they did.

[redonkulousruntsracing]

Wow, this is good stuff, I just spent 30 minutes of company time reading all of this, and it has been AWESOME!!!!:D Yea hard work and design costs$$ but if isnt protected it will get copied and if someone buys the copy , oh well. It happens in all aspects of life, it does suck but that is the nature of the beast. Ya think Micheal Jordan got pissed when Wally-world started selling Air Plastics?? Now the broke kids can look cool too!!!:p :p :p

[Reimer Racing]

If Dave would have sold this slipper clutch at a decent price than nobody would have tried to copy it and make a buck.

But he chose to get top dollar and probly did not sell alot of them because of the price. Now someone selling one simlar to it at half the cost and will sell a ton of them.

The all mighty greed or just bad marketing.

Hell if someone was smart they would get a hold somebody in Taiwan and order the splines before they weld them on to the bells and just sell the splined parts.

[etondaddy]

Originally posted by Reimer Racing
If Dave would have sold this slipper clutch at a decent price than nobody would have tried to copy and make a profit buck.

But he chose to get top dollar and probly did not sell alot of them because of the price. Now someone selling one simlar to it at half the cost and will sell a ton of them. The all mighty greed.

Just bad marketing.

Hell if someone was smart they would get a hold somebody in Taiwan and order the splines before they weld them on to the bells and just sell the splined parts.

Hey Paul didn't you get into this because of a nother guy that did the same thing back in the day............ I think they know each other............ lol :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:


Mike Kozura

[Bill Lemans]

Just a couple thoughts. First ,and i'm sure there is, is there anyone that knows the real costs of r&d for this stuff ? I don't think saying anyone can throw this market with a cheaper price tag fully envelopes all the details. Has anyone spec'd out the costs of having this stuff made with the exact tolerances, materials,treatments, etc. Is it 6061 series al. or 7071 aircraft grade , and which family is it in ? Or is it any ole cheapo aluminum that someone could get and remake? How about steel ? Is it 4140 , 4150, preheated, air hardened tool steel ?
Maybe it's simply case hardened low carbon steel, or not hardened at all.
I have never seen one up close and don't know all the componenets, but I do think comparing apples to apples is a wise choice. I could make that thing twice it's cost just by changing specs and it would still look the same.Or half the cost. Anyone know mill or lathe time per hour if you don't own them ?Or the cost of certain heat treat processes or anodize ?How about the cost of cutting a spline or gear ?
I only bring this stuff up because having an educated opinion is the difference.
Also , the number of times it has to be remade due to the natural process of product development. I don't blame him for wanting to recoup those costs from people that are willing to pay. Quite franky I think he knows it's the only way to recoup his costs, since this mini quad stuff doesn't sell in mass quantities.
Does anyone have a perfect # of what it should cost. NO. Only he knows the true cost, cause he knows all the specs.You get what the market bears.
In my opinion , i wouldn't spend that much considering the ratio of money spent/performance on these little quads.But i'm a cheap *******.:D

How many of you guys can actually say,when you first started, you expected to be paying 3500 and up on theses little demon money sponges ?:eek2:

I just got one question that no one has mentioned really HOW MUCH DOES DAVE GOT IN HIS EQUIPMENT???? Thats what cost so why not get your money back on the wear and tear of those real highly priced machines? What if one breaks down and need fixed? No one thinks of that they think with there wallets. I always look at it like this ( Would you buy your tool set at the Dollar Store or would you go to Sears and buy Craftsman or order SK or MAC?) You get what you pay for I highly believe that!!! IMO:macho

[etondaddy]

Bill please take off the white sheet and put down the purple kool-aid........:D to answer your question....YES... like Jack Moore said it took him an hour to figure it out. The normal priced ones have been in testing for some time now. They're the same damm thing. That's all I can say at this point...... stay tuned to this same bat channel for more details.



Mike Kozura

[mxdad423]

Damn Mike I didn't know you was a machinest now, sure seems that you know alot about it.
By the way did you get your stuff back for the 90? Huh you must of drank his purple kool-aid.
It all comes down to this, everyone has their own opinion and their guys they like to deal with. I ordered my clutch from Dave Thurs. morning, I just got home from work about 5 min ago and it was on my porch, thats a little over 24 hours to my door from his, I would say thats pretty good service.
As far as his machines, it costs money to build things that he builds for these money pits, some of those costs are machines and they aren't cheap, I know I sure as hell can't afford one. I look at things like that when buying products, I don't try to beat someone up when I know there is way more to it then I know, just like just about eveybody else. I remember when I had the local guy do a cylinder for me a few years back, I was at his shop bs'n with him while he was working on his lathe, while we were bs'n his chuck in his lathe broke, when he told me what it was going to cost him to replace that chuck I about fell over. So lets think about it, all it takes is one high price part on a machine to break and you are in a hole. Yes it is the persons choice to be in that perfession but it is also there choice to figure out what they need to sell there product for to recoup there money.
Oh yea and you know when you stay loyal with people, most people take care of prices when you buy. So anyway I will continue to deal with those that treat me good and help me out no matter what time of the day it is, 2 pm or 2 am.
Our we still having fun?

Kevin Smitley::devil: :devil: :devil:

[Bill Lemans]

Originally posted by etondaddy
Bill please take off the white sheet and put down the purple kool-aid........:D to answer your question....YES... like Jack Moore said it took him an hour to figure it out. The normal priced ones have been in testing for some time now. They're the same damm thing. That's all I can say at this point...... stay tuned to this same bat channel for more details.



Mike Kozura

No purple kool aid here, didn't see anything on jack Moore's response, musta missed it. As for the white sheet , we'll save that for the haters....:p :D

Like I said , I wouldn't spend it. But I do this stuff for a living and quite often people don't have clue what it takes to manufacture a low volume item.It was more of an out loud thought than a get on anyones bandwagon. A little devils advocate if you will....:devil:

Hell, Harley's are the biggest overpriced vehicle on the market , but there sellin'.
Plenty of knock offs there , too;)

[Pappy]

Originally posted by coryatver
That comparison isn't fair. Flex Bars and ATV four play bars are totally different designs they are not any where close to being the same thing they don't even do the same function just a similar thing.


It was close enough that the two companies had to reach an agreement:p The point is, I saw folks in this section happy for the product and the price. The idea behind flexxbars is what sprurred the atvfourplay design so I do understand there are differences. the diffence ehre is that SUPPOSEDLY someone has copied the product but I havent seen any verified proof its being marketed.

Didnt Rich Hetrick originally design this slipper clucth anyway:confused:

[mxdad423]

Originally posted by LT80
I'm with mike,,Too much is too much especially when another option is there.
I spent an hour figuring out how to make the LT80 rear clutch pack pads throw the opposite direction for your motors.
What was the rocket science to build these?
The only difference between LT80 stuff and the slippers are the shoes put on backwards, the splined part and a spacer.

I bet ya'll go to walmart even tho they just shut down your local store. And it was you that wouldn't pay 50 cents more at the local store.
650 for a clutch,,400 for a mini pipe,...when will the insanity stop?!


Well jack that's because you are much smarter than me, I could of messed with it for a week and not figured it out, and when you work hours like I do, you don't have time for that sh*t, so to me the money is well worth it, maybe I will be as smart as some other people on here and be able to figure Sh*t like this out for my self. till then I will just spend my money. Why not, I make more everyday I go to work, and if im lucky, one day I will get one of those fancy 40.00 an hour jobs, then I can go real crazy.

Kevin Smitley:D

[mxdad423]

Originally posted by Pappy
It was close enough that the two companies had to reach an agreement:p The point is, I saw folks in this section happy for the product and the price. The idea behind flexxbars is what sprurred the atvfourplay design so I do understand there are differences. the diffence ehre is that SUPPOSEDLY someone has copied the product but I havent seen any verified proof its being marketed.

Didnt Rich Hetrick originally design this slipper clucth anyway:confused:

No Rich did not. And if you want proof it's being marketed just give him a call, he has no problem telling you all about it.

Kevin Smitley

[mxdad423]

Originally posted by quadrider79
Here is a way to think about things in this crazy world that we live in today.

Driving down the road your fuel light comes on, you need fuel.
There are two gas stations side by side. One has a price $2.24 per gallon. The other one's price is $1.99 per gallon.

Are you gonna have to think about which station your gonna get your gas. NOPE. Your gonna stop at the one that is the cheapest.

The way things are today if you don't watch for deals and ways to save money, You will sooner or later find your back pocket BROKE.

I'am not knocking anyone here but if I was looking to buy anything, whether it be a car, furniture for a house, tools, and so forth. I would shop around and buy what was cheaper.

I agree with you on the shopping around thing, I do it all the time, but only on ceartin things. Some things you are just better off spending the extra money, most of the time it saves money in the long run. JMO

Kevin Smitley

[mxdad423]

Originally posted by stoopidbot
If he copied the design exactly, which is what the argument is over, that makes the 2 parts identical. So wouldn't that mean the Dave's stuff is cheap knock off too? If it's the same thing...

They may have the same parts but is his machine work as good? Is his tig welding as good? is the quality of the metal he is using as good? Many questions that people who buy whats cheapest don't think about., than when something goes wrong they are the first to wine about it like a kindergardener .I will say again, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. again JMO

Kevin Smitley

[Pappy]

Originally posted by mxdad423
No Rich did not. And if you want proof it's being marketed just give him a call, he has no problem telling you all about it.

Kevin Smitley

I have no way of knowing who originated the idea, I can only go off what info I am being sent over this issue. Personally I dont really care, the originator failed to patent it and if its being copied, thats on their failure for following the safeguards this country affords.

I dont take sides on an issue such as this, I try and distinguish the facts from those with *** kissing lips on versus those with an axe to grind.

So far i've come to the conclusion that we have folks in the industry that have no business sense:p But i've come to that conclusion in many business genre's:D

You guys can continue this until the cows come home, but remember, alot of folks look in this section expecting to find info on mini atv's and fixes to their issues, not a pissing match between parents and builders.

[mxdad423]

Originally posted by Pappy
I have no way of knowing who originated the idea, I can only go off what info I am being sent over this issue. Personally I dont really care, the originator failed to patent it and if its being copied, thats on their failure for following the safeguards this country affords.

I dont take sides on an issue such as this, I try and distinguish the facts from those with *** kissing lips on versus those with an axe to grind.

So far i've come to the conclusion that we have folks in the industry that have no business sense:p But i've come to that conclusion in many business genre's:D

You guys can continue this until the cows come home, but remember, alot of folks look in this section expecting to find info on mini atv's and fixes to their issues, not a pissing match between parents and builders.


I don't know all of the facts either, I know Rich was working on something or other at one time. And just so there is no confusion in my statement that Rich didn't, that was not a smart a** comment towards Rich or anybody else, after I read it I realized it could be taken that way, so before it is I am letting everyone know that it wasn't meant that way.
Ok I think my cows came home, I have typed enough, myself and everybody else just keeps saying the same thing over and over. It's no fun now, time to find something else to get into a pissing match about. :D :D :D

Kevin Smitley

[etondaddy]

Originally posted by mxdad423
Damn Mike I didn't know you was a machinest now, sure seems that you know alot about it.
By the way did you get your stuff back for the 90?
Kevin Smitley::devil: :devil: :devil:
That's the part your not getting here you don't have to be a machinest to do this.......

I'm drinkin the red on that deal and ready to get out of that vortex also.

How much did you pay for your clutch........come on tell us.

Any butt head can tig weld it's the easyest welding you can do...... and not as good as a good mig weld.

Let me guess you still don't have your motor.......... what color cool-aid does he have.

Hell yea you got it quick....how manys he sitting on at $650.00 retail........ the way things are today he's going to run out of sugar daddy customers like you. He has you in the boat.

Hey I here DC's pretty good at hiding from people that want to beat his a** at the nats. That one should get the fire going.

Sorry Pappy I'm done man....it was fun while it lasted. Lets get back to helping people. I just walked a dude through rings on a 70....... great feeling when it all gos good.

Yea you need a fancy job............... Dc could buy a new house....:devil:


Mike Kozura

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g278/etondaddy/kool_aid_man_glass.jpg

[jetmedic]

This whole thing makes me puke. No patent thats your fault period. I would have liked one of those as well but 650 times 2 bikes dont think so. Oh ya my boy this my boy that my quad. this my quad that. please give it rest. isnt your neck gettin tired from goin up and down.

[jetmedic]

Sorry guys just had enough of this forum.

[Reimer Racing]

All right I think this is getting out of control.

[mxdad423]

Sounds like I hit a nerve. I tried not to get personal with a FRIEND but you can only take so many shots before you can't let it go anymore.
Motor is in and running, I could of had it a long time ago but I chose for him to get the other kids engine's done that run the Nats every week before mine, I didn't want to see kids that are running for points loose points when Brandon and I only get to attend a couple of them. Unlike alot of people I care about other kids to, not just mine. Hell why would of I wanted it any quicker you buddy wasn't giving us any where to race anyway, talk about a line of BS.
Anyway I am done with this sh*t, I don't need to be acting like I know more than I know. All I do know is I am very happy with the quality and service I am provided by all the guys that work hard fo my son to keep him racin, and as long as my son is happy I am happy and could care less what other people think.
As far as what I paid I wouldn't say on here even if I did know, see I haven't even paid for it yet, things like that we take care of when we have time to, when you deal with people regularly and stay loyal money is just what it is and not the first thing that needs to be takin care of.
If you feel that you need to continue any more of this with me I will be at latrobe tommorrow, weather permitting, getting things dialed in. Have a wonderful day, I'm going to watch the penguins game.

Kevin Smitley

[LT80]

BTW, the originator of the slipper clutch was Suzuki. Maybe they should get excited. :)

[wvspeedfreak]

Originally posted by LT80
BTW, the originator of the slipper clutch was Suzuki. Maybe they should get excited. :)

They have probably been wondering why there was such a run on lt80 bells lately :p