The current 15w50 Mobil 1 (?)

[MtnEX]

I know the stuff has changed, and I know you EX guys are some of the biggest users of it... and keep up with it...

So is it still absolutely safe to run in quads?


I would be putting it in my new KFX450R so it would be a bit more severe duty application in the clutch, gearbox and engine.....

[hypersnyper6947]

Originally posted by MtnEX
I know the stuff has changed, and I know you EX guys are some of the biggest users of it... and keep up with it...

So is it still absolutely safe to run in quads?


I would be putting it in my new KFX450R so it would be a bit more severe duty application in the clutch, gearbox and engine.....

I run the 15w50 gold cap extended performance mobile one full synthetic

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by hypersnyper6947
I run the 15w50 gold cap extended performance mobile one full synthetic

Did you know that's slated to be discontinued next month?

The replacement product is this one...

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Images/Products/M1_15w50_top.gif

API SM/CF

That's what I have here.

[hypersnyper6947]

guess its time to buy a whole bunch

Originally posted by MtnEX
Did you know that's slated to be discontinued next month?

The replacement product is this one...

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Images/Products/M1_15w50_top.gif

API SM/CF

That's what I have here.

Thats what I still use. The red label.

[Red02EX]

Same here. Just switched to it and my 400 runs alot cooler and smoother.

[NacsMXer]

Originally posted by SuicideMFNdoors
Thats what I still use. The red label.

X2. I use the red label 15w50, but the gold cap stuff is fine to use as well. Didn't know they were discontinuing the gold cap extended performance but doesn't matter, it was more expensive so I never used it.

[beags86]

Originally posted by NacsMXer
X2. I use the red label 15w50, but the gold cap stuff is fine to use as well. Didn't know they were discontinuing the gold cap extended performance but doesn't matter, it was more expensive so I never used it.



X2 :D

[MtnEX]

Cool... I just wanted to make sure it was still wet clutch safe before considering putting it in my KFX450R.

[Red02EX]

As long as you read the label on the back of the bottle and in the lower half of the rating circle it doesn't say "Energy Conserving" it is alright to use in a wet clutch application since it doesn't contain additives that will make the clutches slip.

[NacsMXer]

Originally posted by Red02EX
As long as you read the label on the back of the bottle and in the lower half of the rating circle it doesn't say "Energy Conserving" it is alright to use in a wet clutch application since it doesn't contain additives that will make the clutches slip.

Exactly. This has been pointed out before, but it doesn't hurt to get the correct info out there.

If the API certification seal on the back does not say "energy conserving" on the bottom, it is ok to run and will not make the clutch slip. This is how it will look on the back of the Mobil 1 15w50 bottle, and is why it is ok to run in our clutches. 15w50 is the only automotive grade Mobil 1 that is ok to use.
http://www.dansmc.com/oilright.jpg

If it says "energy conserving", stay away!
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/tips/api2.gif

[MtnEX]

I understand that... but to be honest, I'm skiddish of the blanket statement...

Matter of fact, I'm to the point where the next time I am bored, I'm going to challenge that with some research.

Here's why....

No oil that I know of above 10w30 carries the energy conserving classification....

So I find it hard to believe that no 10w40, 15w40, 15w50 or 20w50 contains any friction modifiers.

I'm sure many don't... but none of them?


I think there is more to the classification than that. I think that viscosities above 10w30 just can't qualify as "energy conserving" because of the fluid viscosity at temperature.

So what will I be looking for?
Moly?... And what else?

[NacsMXer]

Originally posted by MtnEX
I understand that... but to be honest, I'm skiddish of the blanket statement...

Matter of fact, I'm to the point where the next time I am bored, I'm going to challenge that with some research.

Here's why....

No oil that I know of above 10w30 carries the energy conserving classification....

So I find it hard to believe that no 10w40, 15w40, 15w50 or 20w50 contains any friction modifiers.

I'm sure many don't... but none of them?


I think there is more to the classification than that. I think that viscosities above 10w30 just can't qualify as "energy conserving" because of the fluid viscosity at temperature.

So what will I be looking for?
Moly?... And what else?

Couldn't tell you if those higher viscosity oils don't contain friction modifiers since they aren't labeled energy conserving. I can't make any guarantees about oil I haven't researched and personally dealt with. You are correct, it is somewhat of a blanket statement, but through my own research about who's running what synthetic in what machine (dirtbikes, ATV's, streetbikes, etc.), the general consensus is to stay away from any oil that is labeled energy conserving.

I don't know that a lower viscosity in and of itself, qualifies an oil to be labeled energy conserving. I believe it is the additives that may make the extra difference. And yes, when it comes to clutch slippage, it is molybdenum disulfide (MoS2) that is the culprit. I understand that in order for an oil to carry the EC label, it must exhibit an improvement in gas mileage over a reference/control oil when operated in the same engine under the same conditions. From that, you can infer that it is the extra additives, and not just the viscosity that is qualifying an oil to be EC. I could be wrong, but that's what I get out of that statement.

You bring up some good points, I have never really noticed that the higher viscosity oils tend not to carry the EC label. I'd be interested to find out as well, if it is just the additives or the viscosity that is making an oil EC or non/EC.

Please post the results of your own research if you can. The more info we can find out about this subject the better :)

[MtnEX]

I was called inside to stay with the baby for a bit, and was a little bored, so here is what I found in a short time....

ALL of the 15w50 Mobil 1 formulations contain MOLY.


I don't know how much in comparison to others, but will find out later...

[beags86]

let us know as soon as you find something out. and i have another question. do we KNOW for sure moly hurts wet clutchs..cas i have that in now and doesn't seam to be hurting anything.. but i would change it as soon as i know otherwise..

[NacsMXer]

Originally posted by MtnEX
I was called inside to stay with the baby for a bit, and was a little bored, so here is what I found in a short time....

ALL of the 15w50 Mobil 1 formulations contain MOLY.


I don't know how much in comparison to others, but will find out later...

That is surprising to hear, so I did some more digging and I found a very in depth article from Sportrider magazine about motorcycle/auto oils. They analyzed various oils in a spectrometer to break the oils down into the additives/components that comprise them. Not sure if you heard this from the same article...

Some interesting data on moly from that article:
"Moly is often referred to as a friction modifier, but it is actually a solid metal dispersed in some oils. Because it has such a high melting temperature (4730 F versus 2795 F for iron), it works great as a high-temperature, high-pressure antiwear agent. Some claim that because moly is so slick, it can cause clutch slippage. In fact, some motorcycle manufacturers specify oil without moly due to this problem. The moly issue is such that Honda offers its HP4 both with and without it. Looking at the moly graph data, however, shows that even Honda's "moly-free" product contains 71 ppm. Many of the products contain less than five ppm of moly, which is the threshold measurement on this test (meaning any amount less than five ppm will not be detected). Both Torco oils contain a significant dose of moly, while the Maxum Ultra and Motul 300V Factory contain far less. The Mobil 1 automotive oil contains 92 ppm, while the MX4T motorcycle-specific version has an undetectable amount. Only six of the 19 motorcycle oils we tested use moly at all. Those that do, however, average 298 ppm. Considering that many oils contain five ppm or less, 298 ppm is a significant dose."

Interesting to note, that Honda HP4 without moly, indeed contains 71 parts per million of moly. Automotive Mobil 1 contained 92 ppm, while the 6 motorcycle oils that did contain moly averaged 298 ppm. 71 ppm of moly in Honda oil designed for motorcycles, and 92 ppm of moly in Mobil 1 designed for cars is not a huge difference....especially considering other motorcycle oils averaged a whole 298 ppm! Motul 300V designed for motorcycles actually contained a slight amount more than the automotive Mobil 1. Check out the graph:
http://image.sportrider.com/f/8958423/146-0310-Moly.content-zoom.gif

Considering myself, and many others on this forum have been running Mobil 1 15w50 for quite some time with no clutch slippage issues, maybe moly is not as bad as we all thought? Definitely an enlightening subject, i'm glad MtnEX questioned it, and i'm anxious to hear what else he found out.

More from part 1 of the article:
"Can synthetic oils cause my clutch to slip? To answer this in one word: No. Clutch slippage is caused by many things, but the use of synthetic oil alone is usually not the culprit. The truth is that some bikes seem to suffer clutch slippage no matter what oil goes in them, while others run fine with any oil. This is most likely caused by factors other than the oil, such as the spring pressure, age and clutch plate materials. If you have a bike known for clutch problems, you may have to be more selective in your oil choices. Moly is often blamed for clutch slippage, and it can have an effect-but moly alone is not the problem. We wish there was a hard and fast rule to follow, but it is just not that easy. Simply put, you will have to try an oil and evaluate it. If you experience slippage with the new oil, and have not had problems before, it may be the oil. The plates and/or springs could also be worn to the point that they have finally started to slip. Simply change back to the previous oil and see what happens. You can also check the test data in next issue's article to see if that particular oil has a significant amount of moly. If so, try one that does not have as much moly next time. We talked to Mark Junge, Vesrah's Racing representative, who has won numerous WERA national championships using Vesrah's clutches. He said that in his years of engine work he has yet to see a slipping clutch that could be pinned on synthetic motor oil. Junge felt that nearly every time the clutch was marginal or had worn springs, the new oil just revealed a problem that already existed."

some good reading:
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0308_oil/index.html
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0310_oil/index.html

[MtnEX]

I found it on actual oil analysis lab reports.

It matches up the the ppm listed above.

Maybe that's not considered a lot of moly.
I don't know.


I have read quite a bit of argument about rather or not moly really causes a problem... or if it's only a problem on certain bikes.



Another point brought up on using auto oil in bikes is the zinc restrictions, which reduce that last line of defense before metal to metal contact.

But there again, I read another report put out... and in the end with shear testing, it turned out the protection level was more about the QUALITY of the zinc additive and not the quantity/ppm.... as some oils with less performed better and some with the most performed the worst.



I just scratch my head. :ermm:

[beags86]

NacsMXer - you the man for finding that.

i wanted to look but i thought i would do another type of test. i went outside and beat the hell out of my 400ex for an hour. and i can say i had no clutch issues
;)

with the diff being only 21 parts per million more i would say that mobil 1 is just fine for running in a ex and i plan on continuing using it.

[NacsMXer]

Originally posted by MtnEX
I found it on actual oil analysis lab reports.

It matches up the the ppm listed above.

Maybe that's not considered a lot of moly.
I don't know.


I have read quite a bit of argument about rather or not moly really causes a problem... or if it's only a problem on certain bikes.



Another point brought up on using auto oil in bikes is the zinc restrictions, which reduce that last line of defense before metal to metal contact.

But there again, I read another report put out... and in the end with shear testing, it turned out the protection level was more about the QUALITY of the zinc additive and not the quantity/ppm.... as some oils with less performed better and some with the most performed the worst.



I just scratch my head. :ermm:

I think that 92 ppm of moly in M1 15w50 is small potatoes and almost negligible when you compare it to synthetics designed for motorcycles like the Maxima Maxim Ultra 4T which are well into the 300 ppm range and Torco's motorcycle oils which are off the chart nearing the 600 ppm range. And like I said before, when you compare that to the 71 ppm of moly in Honda HP4 (which a ton of people run, and works fine with the clutch), 92 ppm is not that far off.

I am definitely surprised to find out the M1 15w50 has moly, but i'm not scared off from it either after seeing this hard data. Go ahead and run it in your KFX, I honestly think you will not have a problem being that so many others have run it in their quads without issue. If you are still leary, go with the Mobil 1 MX4T (now called 4T racing), which as the results show, has no apparent moly content. The price difference is the only reason I don't run the 4T myself...it costs like $11-12 a quart vs. around $5 for what I pay for the regular 15w50.

I'm still just as puzzled as you about the whole energy conserving thing. It's now apparent that an oil can contain moly and NOT be energy conserving at the same time. You were absolutely right about that, so my "blanket statement" was indeed incorrect. I think that if an oil has a certain amount of additives, coupled with its viscosity index, and performs better in fuel economy compared to a reference oil....then it can be labeled as "energy conserving". Whether or not the oil contains moly is not the deciding factor in the EC label.

[NacsMXer]

Originally posted by beags86
NacsMXer - you the man for finding that.

i wanted to look but i thought i would do another type of test. i went outside and beat the hell out of my 400ex for an hour. and i can say i had no clutch issues
;)

with the diff being only 21 parts per million more i would say that mobil 1 is just fine for running in a ex and i plan on continuing using it.

Yeah i'm glad MtnEX questioned what I had to say about it, otherwise I would have never found this info! :blah:

I totally agree, i'm gonna continue running the 15w50.

[MtnEX]

Personally, I'm starting to think the whole thing is a big bunch of B.S.

The only way to "know" it's going to be OK is for the oil to be tested and pass the wet clutch certification... which I am sure many more oil formulations will exceed than are tested...

So if you want to know it's certified, you pay the price... the JASO/Motorcycle label premium...

Out of all I have been able to find, I believe Amsoil and Mobil 1 motorcycle oils are the best you can get... but the best compared to other motorcycle labeled oils.

It would do my heart good to see a test published that also included 15w50, diesel oil, and some 10w40 and 20w50 car oil.

[MtnEX]

Best I can tell so far is that this KFX450R might well be a "proving ground" for how tough oil really is for high performance motorcycle applications.

I say that for 2 reasons.

One is that it has a sight glass, so I can very easily see the level and condition of the oil... and I can also see if there is foaming, air entrainment, or thinning going on.

Two is that it seems I can feel the oil going downhill just by the transmission feel.

The trans on this thing is like a work of art with fresh oil in. It has very smooth, short throw shifting, and a very positive snap into each gear.... and everything just works so perfect.

But soon, the trans starts to feel more normal than supernatural. Change the oil and it's like flipping a switch.

Kawi oil goes downhill QUICK. Rotella 5w40 synthetic feels like it's starting to degrade too.

I was thinking of going heavier to see if oil stands up better... like 15w40, 15w50 or 20w50.


If I find I have to drain this often, I'm just going to run 15w40 diesel oil and change every ride or two for cheap.

But I think I will try the 15w50 first because it's synthetic and economical... and if that doesn't work, the Amsoil or Mobil 1 motorcycle.... and if that doesn't work, then revert to the 15w40.

[RaceinCircles]

Very interesting read...Thanks for the research guys! Mtnex..Let us know how your tests go with which oils!!

[MtnEX]

I will.

[MtnEX]

Well, I actually squirmed around with it a little and diverted from the plan...

I moved from 5w40 Rotella to 15w40 Rotella instead.

I put the 15w40 in both the 400EX and 450R.

I have to say I am impressed with the stuff. I actually like it better than the synthetic version. It holds it's viscosity longer, and it is cheaper per gallon. So I find it to be a much greater value, and sensible for the service life we are talking here.

My 400EX has way more hours on this oil. But it still looks fine, and will be staying on until it starts to look like it doesn't.

The KFX on the other hand seems to have beat it's smaller fill up already though. So it's time for a drain.

I am going to try the 15w50 Mobil 1 I think... to see if it gives me any longer drain interval I am comfortable with.

If it does, I am willing to stick with it, buying by the bulk 5 qt jug. The price is not that much more and if I can save a filter here and there, I'm good with it... just so I don't have to change so often.

If not, I'm going back to the Rotella 15w40 and that will be the end of it.... because I will not pay the "per quart" price for synthetic motorcycle oil to run this short of drain intervals.

I can't see the point protection-wise, and if I did... It would not take me long to spend the cost of a rebuild for the stuff... so where is the point?

$22 for 5 quarts of 15w50 Mobil 1 I can see.

If that don't work out, I can see a gallon of Rotella for $11 a lot better than $12-13 per quart for synthetic motorcyle oil.

[MtnEX]

Well, I have the Mobil 1 in the KFX now.

We'll see how it goes....

[VTredneckgames]

Ive had 15w 50 Mobil1 in mine for the past 3 months. No problems

[Flynbryan19]

I do not think you will find a difference. I have ran Rotella in all my quads for the past 4yrs with 0 problems. ;) If you have the $$ by all means run synthetic, but if your on a budget the Rotella will more than suit your needs.