TNTs 09 DS450 Build [Archive]

TNT

04-15-2009, 06:38 PM

Check out the difference in stock vs web cams the duration increase and size…

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/Cams-1.jpg

Smoothed out the elbow this had a real bad inner bend bad for turbuance looks a lot better now….
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/elbow.jpg

INTAKE port..
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/exhaust.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/exhaustcloseup.jpg

Exhaust port….
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/intake-1.jpg

Head big valves….
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/head.jpg

Check out the 09 peg much better than the 08 and tie it into the nurf bolts will help keep the casting from breaking….the bolt in the upper right common to the nurf take load away from the casting the peg bolts too…..We seen Crix crack this recently. Interesting sice we got to grind the same casting to get the rear PEP in but not by the peg mount...whey!
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/PEG.jpg

DS so far, Ill be shock if my boy gets it running tonight…..
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/TNTDS.jpg

My son left working on jetting a customers quad…dyno in trailer...
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/Trevworking.jpg

Motors and more motors…these guys put out a dozen/week all over the world, race engines, mainly Sadia Arabia, rich oil tycoons…Theres our rotax at the end my boy will start assembling it after work...hes probably working on it now why I relax at home, well! Who pays the tab?...lol!
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/motors.jpg

Our YAM…..it races this weekend if DS is not done tonight….
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/ouryam.jpg

YFZr we have tried 100 cams trying to get more than 48/34 hp/tq…..
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/ltr1.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/ltr2.jpg

We got a similar Fuel Custom intake for the DS....
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/ltrfci.jpg

Shop…customer?
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/shop.jpg

End of show for now hope you enjoyed! :D

hotshotgoal30

04-15-2009, 06:43 PM

looks like u guys are livin the dream. nice toys and shop. wish i knew more about that stuff. or i wish i had the money to pay someone to do it. lol once again i thank you for all your help on this site. your info is always great

X400EX

04-15-2009, 07:35 PM

Nice shop!

crixal

04-15-2009, 07:37 PM

when can i get that fci intake? :)

Blizzard24

04-15-2009, 07:57 PM

Terry, time to disagree again :D

The peg mounts are the same on the 08, I just went downstairs to compare to your pic and they are identical. I checked Pro Armors website and the pro pegs are for 08 and up (only one model for both years).

ScottB125

04-15-2009, 07:58 PM

In the quad world, do people ever flow heads?
Any idea what the stock cam specs vs your webcam are?

BTW....nice looking place...looks like more work than you can handle!

spanky101

04-15-2009, 08:00 PM

Im loving the pictures man! Dangit, im torn now between building a bike or buying a built bike. EFF! haha

cdoskocil9

04-15-2009, 08:38 PM

How did you get a black swing arm man or do my eyes deceive me? And what did you have to grind for the PEP got any pics?

spanky101

04-15-2009, 10:46 PM

I would imagine its just powdercoated but i could be completely wrong!

TNT

04-16-2009, 05:10 AM

Lets start w/ Mr. Blizzard - Actually I went and looked at a 09 yesterday and 08 side by side and there are some subtle difference in the casting at the peg. Im guessing since they put the nurfs on the 09? One of things again they don't publicize. It don't matter, the casting with the integrated peg attach boss is a bad design concept all together they need to change to make this quad more maintainable. I hoping the strong nurfs help keep the casting from breaking like Crix's.

Mr. Crixal - As soon as we prove the prototype the FCI will be available. I thought you had a Rossier intake….this FCI is sized to K&Ns, I would hope you can find adapters.

ScottB - Not sure what you mean…..competitive racer most flow the head. As far as micing the cams I don't have the numbers but can get them if you want, or BRP/Web has them. Those are the same Cams the race teams use.

As far as the swing - It looks pretty good, we tried a tuff liner and it worked out well. You can hit it with a hammer and it doesn't chip easily. It has rubber pellets in the paint so it's a ruff interesting texture. A little weight, few onuses no big deal. Well see how it holds up. No I would not powder coat a swing with all the bearing and such or chance taking it out of spec. Good eye tho Mr Cdoskocl9 I was wondering who would notice it first and was not going to show it till the quad was done blacked out w/graphics.

I'll go at lunch or after work and see how much progress the boy made last night and today. He's determined to race it this weekend. :rolleyes: :cool:

andiboy123

04-16-2009, 05:38 AM

hey tnt no more love for me bro!!!!!!!!!!
built look great are those web cams are the ones rossier do?
im thinking to get my motor out to built it but im scared of that throtle sensor you said to never remove i dont have nobody here to suport me with the budd system, but i see many people sending engines out to built nobody said anything about the sensor, hit me back bro to see if i get those cams or send my engine to rossier!!!!!!!!! gl this week end

Blizzard24

04-16-2009, 08:42 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TNT1
[B]Lets start w/ Mr. Blizzard - Actually I went and looked at a 09 yesterday and 08 side by side and there are some subtle difference in the casting at the peg. Im guessing since they put the nurfs on the 09? One of things again they don't publicize. It don't matter, the casting with the integrated peg attach boss is a bad design concept all together they need to change to make this quad more maintainable. I hoping the strong nurfs help keep the casting from breaking like Crix's.

Didnt intend to start crap w ya Terry, just busting chops. They look the same from the pic, if they strengthened it, great, if not, w Crix w can now see what might happen under the wrong circumstances.

Tell your son to stop slacking and get some work done, we want to see how the build performs!

TNT

04-16-2009, 09:04 AM

LOL! Oh no worries Chris! You should see some of the Engineer's I work around here nothing I or anyone for that matter can say is right they always know more, in front of the boss that is. I decided not to say anything to them anymore. In my profession is all about making the other guy look dumb so we have a lot of busting chops I am use to. I try and not act that way, I mean with you guys anyway. I'm older than most almost 50 so I've been around longer and should know a little more. My son thinks I think I can't learn anything from him, but he's 19 what does he know…..lol!

Know really if I come across as a know it all let me know. I learn from all ages and don't mean to.

Boy told me last night he'd get it done today, even drive 3 hours to the dunes, Waynoka, Ok, to get it dyno's since it's out there now. I don't think we can run on the pink only for the race this weekend, we may need the PC3/dynoed.

Angle - There's still lots of love in the house still bro from a different mo. Cams call WEB and see if they will sell them to ya, ask for the ones the race team use or for a 08 DS grind that works. The book said not to mess with that TB sensor but we had a guy from the UK on here that has several time with no problems. If you have a dyno out there it can tune the quad after the mods. Send your motor to the shop in the PICs above, we have all the latest parts I am showing. You'll beat everyone on the Island, then you can send me some good Havana Gold Premium Fatties(cigars)!

Call JSR Performance for the MOD's I am doing including cams…..316-706-3658

I get some photos up soon including the PEP rear shock install and FCI…..

cdoskocil9

04-16-2009, 09:13 AM

Do you know what brand the stuff was you used for the swingarm? Also any guess on power out of this motor? How much was it I just might do the same build if it turns out right....

spanky101

04-16-2009, 10:37 AM

Hey TNT, just out of curiousity but correct me if im wrong, isnt jsr performance the old nmotion? Please correct me if im wrong, i just see all the nmotion products looking relabeled is all. Sorry for the off topic post, just curious. But i cant wait to see more pictures of the build and how its progressing.

Also, where did you go through for the PEP shocks? Thanks

TNT

04-16-2009, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by IOWAracer
TNT1 give me a call again got another problem this one is serious motor is out of the frame and disasembled.... my number should be in ur old messages....

Sorry I have not been able to call. I PM you my sons # call him at the shop they can help you w/your motor. But call today they leave for the dunes later. (you got to clean your box out I can't send it)

Spanky, yeah John at JSR used to work for Nmotion who has went commercial sales. JSR heart and soul is into racing so he's back on his own with some good help such as my son. :D

Ill try and get more info and prices on my mods up asap.

The boy was up till midnight and probably tonight again. :rolleyes:

cdoskocil9

04-16-2009, 01:35 PM

Awesome let us know man and what about the coating?

crixal

04-16-2009, 06:11 PM

i'll sell the rossier intake on here for cheap if the fci comes out. we might be welding my peg back on tomorrow. wish us luck!

TNT

04-17-2009, 05:37 AM

Originally posted by cdoskocil9
Awesome let us know man and what about the coating?

Plastic Coat makes a do-it-yourself truck liner I used I got at Walmart or try a auto store, Target, etc... Comes in a kit if not sand the whole swing with 60grit then clean all the grease and dirt off it w/acetone. Then use a self-etching primer, 2 coats(this is important). I just masked the axle, sprocket, mating surfaces, install bolts so the stuff don't get on threads, and used several size brushes applied two coats. Took the guards off. Then once it dried I applied a 1-2 coats of a high gloss plastic paint on top just to make it shine a little and give a more uniform look.

I looks pretty good next time I take photos I'll take some close ups for ya.

Crix I'm sure we can find an adapter to hook up to your Rossier. Good luck with that weld, follow what I layed out it will be strong you don't want a nurf flying off.

spanky101

04-17-2009, 08:19 AM

Did your son end up gettin the bike all together or just ran out of time?

TNT

04-17-2009, 09:30 AM

I just talked him and he said "Man thats alot of work the DS" ......he said the motor is done and was ridiculous hard to get in and he wants to modify the frame for next time? :confused: :eek:

I said politely, "modify that frame without me seeing it first and I'll modify the way you ride for life! 19 or not I got a big ol belt!!! HA!
:mad: :grr:

We'll get back on it early next week when the dyno gets back from the dunes. I want him to take his time and do it right! Told him to focus on the YAM and the AX tonight.

Im kinda glad he didn't get it done and jump right into a AX with that much power not riding for a month and on a new quad.

Ill go out Monday and get some pics of the progress.

:D

andiboy123

04-17-2009, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by TNT1

Angle - There's still lots of love in the house still bro from a different mo. Cams call WEB and see if they will sell them to ya, ask for the ones the race team use or for a 08 DS grind that works. The book said not to mess with that TB sensor but we had a guy from the UK on here that has several time with no problems. If you have a dyno out there it can tune the quad after the mods. Send your motor to the shop in the PICs above, we have all the latest parts I am showing. You'll beat everyone on the Island, then you can send me some good Havana Gold Premium Fatties(cigars)!

Call JSR Performance for the MOD's I am doing including cams…..316-706-3658

I get some photos up soon including the PEP rear shock install and FCI…..

hey tnt!!
i was doing some reserch today, my intrest is to gain some power but also be able to ride for a couple of hours like gncc type/off road on woods mud all that, now web cams, they dont have on their site the cams but do i have to change valves and springs for those cams? im not going with a 500 cc piston but cp ofer a 12.5 piston on the same 97mm bore, that i think it will gave me some power (low end and top) plus wont damage the engine under severe race, now i saw u port your head intake and exhaust i have a real good atv mech to do that here, these mods are not that hard to do now, i dont think i need to bore my throtle to 50 mm or pc3 will be enogth to compensate gas needed? or i will be needing new injector, also do you think if i decide to do all theese thing i can send you the emc to rice the limp mode to the 09 , i really dont whatn to eliminate it decition will be made soon after y pay mu kid school for next year, remember i dont have a 50' trailer hehehee, im a architectural draftman not an engineer .......

peace bro!!!!!!!!!!

ps :you forgot about the heel gard? hehehe

fastford

04-17-2009, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by andiboy123
hey tnt!!
now i saw u port your head intake and exhaust i have a real good atv mech to do that here,
hehehe

I would talk to Rossier before porting your intake on the DS. They tried porting and lost power cuz of the long intake track. They were filling them in to get port velocity to see power gains..... Just my 2 cents

ml450r

04-17-2009, 07:30 PM

Fast ford, this is true. You should see what they did to my intake. I am wondering how that porting will respond with the big bore though.

crixal

04-17-2009, 09:45 PM

good or bad on the porting, ml?

ml450r

04-17-2009, 09:56 PM

good, I was just saying the epoxy it instead of opening it up.

crixal

04-17-2009, 10:01 PM

ohhh, good. how much faster is it w/ the motor work over the pipe & intake?

ml450r

04-17-2009, 10:04 PM

It runs much better, alot more low and mid, makes the bike much better to race.

andiboy123

04-17-2009, 11:48 PM

Originally posted by ml450r
It runs much better, alot more low and mid, makes the bike much better to race.
1-so you send your engine or only the parts?
2- web cams or re grind cams?
3 so you spend like 1500 for the mods?
4-did yo need to get the gasket kit
you have the 13.6:1 in thinking 4 me a 12.5 cp piston and a custom head pipe, hmf whant me to send my pipe and they will charge 250 more for the head pipe now the way they make head pipes they start with the sock diameter and start growing on the curve orrrrr ask rosier for theirs an then mod it her

ml450r

04-18-2009, 06:44 AM

I sent him the head, they are web cams, closer to 1800, and yes I got a new top end gasket set.

I have a 13.5-1 piston.

I would use a Rossier pipe.

TNT

04-18-2009, 06:58 AM

We kept the ports large since we have a big bore, we'll see what it does. We think it will work perfectly w/the big valves and ports.

Angel - Call John at 316-706-3658 to get the Cams he can hook you up with a 12.5 CP too at stock bore. The port is for better flow not size. I think DGS did it and he added a bigger injector like we did, 449 motor. Devin can get you the green injector BRP recommends for this level of mods. I know DASA and Protec(not sure about Rage) adds epoxy for more bottom, but John(JSR) doesn't care for it, has another way. Just depends on how far you want to go with it………. That elbow needs some reshaping at least. The FCI would be a good move too, and yes the bigger TB will help. John can do this all and has a butterfly valve for it. John can help you decide how far to go for your needs, give him a call tell him Terry sent you. He gets motors from all over the world. Theres several good engine builders out there Rossier is not the only one.

ECU call Devin and see if he can help you out, you have to send it to Canada to remove it or Devin to raise the temp. You might try your mods first where you live and if you don't go into the limp mode don't sweat it.

TNT

04-22-2009, 11:51 AM

TNT''s quad is on the dyno. Predict the HP & Torque and DYNOMAN LTR311 will give you his KTM.

I'm just messing with ya LTR! LMAO! :D

andiboy123

04-22-2009, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by TNT1
TNT''s quad is on the dyno. Predict the HP & Torque and DYNOMAN LTR311 will give you his KTM.

I'm just messing with ya LTR! LMAO! :D

i hope some 58 hp and 46 torque
im really waiting for this result i will call jr as soon you port what i predict!!!!!!!!

ltr311

04-22-2009, 12:33 PM

52-54whp 35-37fltbs. is my guess

andiboy123

04-22-2009, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by ltr311
52-54whp 35-37fltbs. is my guess
i hope more , i know all dynos are diferent but here my friend took his trx, trinity exhaust, stage 2 hot cams no air box with big intake and filter and jetted and hit 48 hp 36 torque
ds are supose to be a beast!!!!!!
:)

Blizzard24

04-22-2009, 12:51 PM

54 hp 38ft/lbs

TNT

04-22-2009, 01:19 PM

List of MODS:

495CC
13:1 CP
50MM TB
Web Cams
Ti Retainers
Port
Oversize Injector
FCI/Large K$N(prototype)
Rossier Pipe(full)
Race ECU
PC3
CV4 fuel tank boot(prototype)
PEP(PD1) Shocks
Race Team Louvers
ECU protector
Custom Race Team graphics by SSI(coming soon)

Im going out to the shop in a couple hours after work to get some pics and results….will post later or tomorrow unless somethng goes wrong. Will work on getting cost later.

ml450r

04-22-2009, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by ltr311
52-54whp 35-37fltbs. is my guess

I would say this is the best guess. The bike will not make over 40 ft lbs of tq unless your dyno is a cheater...:D

38tq is alot. I would say low 50's on the hp.

TNT

04-22-2009, 02:47 PM

Just got a call the motor blew......Piston blew apart or something like that ruined the cases....Someones going to pay! Sounds like CP! :mad:

tearing the motor down now to find out WTF happen?

crixal

04-22-2009, 02:55 PM

did you get any runs before it blew? that sucks, man. tough luck.

ml450r

04-22-2009, 03:31 PM

That sucks Terry, let us know what happened. Hopefully someone else gets to pay for this.

ltr311

04-22-2009, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by TNT1
Just got a call the motor blew......Piston blew apart or something like that ruined the cases....Someones going to pay! Sounds like CP! :mad:

tearing the motor down now to find out WTF happen?

My guess is not the piston. Crank and rod if there is case damage. Cp pistons are pretty stout! keep us posted.

joeyds450x

04-22-2009, 03:48 PM

all that hard work and $$ for nothin..

coryatver

04-22-2009, 04:15 PM

what kind of crank and rod where you using?

TNT

04-22-2009, 05:23 PM

TNT DYNO RESULTS: 0

We boroscoped in this hole it looks like the top half of the stock rod came off. This hole and the one in the rear must be were it punctured through.
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/FRONTHOLE.jpg

Theres a smaller hole to the right of the header in rear….
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/REARHOLE.jpg

Needless to say I am already drinking…..AND PISSED and disappointed!!! Tomorrow we take it apart and see all the damage, hopefully not more than the rod, cases…..We may put a Falicon. I get it all at cost but still a big loss.

Don’t think for a minute this cannot happen to other motors, we seen plenty heres a Honda…..
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/HONDA1.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/HONDA2.jpg

The FCI turned out great!!
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/FCI1.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/FCI2.jpg

Too bad Bike was sounding great and looking sharp…
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/DSWBLOWNENGINE.jpg

Oh well that’s racing, we’ll rebuild and see what caused this and avoid it next time..

Thanks for all the PM’s and support.

Anyone got a used engine or know of a good rod/crank to put in let me know.

TNT
Terry and Trever

TNT

04-22-2009, 05:56 PM

Well God works in mysterious ways...Got a message from Can-am wanting to know how they can help while I was at the shop. Ill call em tomorrow.

crixal

04-22-2009, 06:02 PM

how did can am find out so fast? you should send that fci to driver for a test. :)

TNT

04-22-2009, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by crixal
how did can am find out so fast? you should send that fci to driver for a test. :)

Honestly I don't know? You believe in God?

Sorry but getting a FCI to Driver right now is the least of my worries.

Blizzard24

04-22-2009, 06:36 PM

Terry, sorry to hear about that man. I was really looking forward to seeing what you built there.

X400EX

04-22-2009, 06:43 PM

Damn... I was looking to see the result too. Don't give up!

Positive thing great job on the intake, I was wondering how it was going to be!! It looks sick!

ml450r

04-22-2009, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by crixal
how did can am find out so fast? you should send that fci to driver for a test. :)

You would be surprised who watches this forum...;)

hotshotgoal30

04-22-2009, 07:27 PM

not gunna lie thats pretty cool they emailed you. lol sucks about the whole thing blowin up. you were so close. iv put a few bikes together in my day. nothing goes as planned

andiboy123

04-23-2009, 05:18 AM

dammmm doggggg!!!!!! dont worrie the engine is still there few this and that but thats how mec. works better on the garage than the track. my dads friend had a car more than 65 grand on the engine, he spend the first 4 month working all week to go to the track to test it and brake something once he finish he was running low 6 on a 1/4 mile so if you have a custom built **** will happend!!!!!!!!!

im going for those 58 hrses no matter what

ltr311

04-23-2009, 07:46 AM

Originally posted by TNT1
Honestly I don't know? You believe in God?

Sorry but getting a FCI to Driver right now is the least of my worries.

if you decide you do wanna see what it will do on a stocker, let me know. I have fast turn around. I can test it within a day of getting it and ship it right back.

Sorry for your luck bro. I know the feeling. I build my 08 ltr up completely and then the first time I rode it, I lost an oil line and blew the motor. Then I rebuilt it and rode it for the first time and blew the tranny. Then I rebuilt it and rode it two times and totaled it. Hows that for luck????Keep your head up.

ScottB125

04-23-2009, 03:16 PM

Damn, sorry to see that happened.

How did you guys get the extra cc's? Bore or stroke...or little bit of both? Offset ground stock crank?
What about balancing?

TNT

04-23-2009, 07:49 PM

We bored it up stock crank/rod. Guess we'll see soon what the crank and rod looks like. Top half of the rod went flying out the motor. Maybe a stroker might have been a better way to go here? I just didn't want to split the case, but maybe this is just bad luck. I know others have bored them successfully. We'll get it figured out. We may put a stroker in it now. I just wished I got some dyno results to see where we are at so I can decide what more if any to do. It's all guessing right now.

The FCI does not fit it's a prototype that needs some reshaping still not worth testing until we have the right configuration. We had to grind some frame out to get it to fit and we have to take the whole FCI out to change the filter, but when this beast is done it will be like no other and awesome or "sick" as you all would say.

joeyds450x

04-24-2009, 07:25 AM

tnt, dont wanna get off topic here but wut kind of nerfbars you got? are they the pro armor fatbars?

ScottB125

04-24-2009, 08:30 AM

I would do a stroker setup. Anytime you add stroke, you add torque and hp. Adding a larger piston alone will make more power, but not like a stroker setup does.

With the right cam, you could have that bike making some really nice torque.

I was also wanting to pick your brain on the porting. On the intake side, where the runner splits into each valve, I noticed at the split was a sharp edge. Maybe in quads/motorcycles its different, but in the car world, that is a huge no-no. Think about an airplanes leading edge of its wing....its rounded, not sharp. A sharp edge creates turbulence, which is bad for airflow. I've seen several motorcycle heads done this way....I'm wondering why?

TNT

04-24-2009, 09:11 AM

Yeah those are pro-armor nurfs.

The intake we want turbulant to mix and atomize the fuel better, the exhaust we smooth out. I think I got my pics mislabled. Sorry!

TNT

04-24-2009, 09:26 AM

BTW Scott the aircraft wing is a little different there the bull nose shape increases velocity decreases pressure on top of wing and the opposite on bottom to gain a pressure differential and lift. We deal with turbulance in different ways, vortex generators, etc...

Same concept tho in much of the engine tracks with repect to airflow, like in the intake track FCI we decrease velocity increase pressure by down sizing(converge) from the filter. Just the opposite on the exhaust where we want to increase velocity decrease pressure(diverge) although there are times it's desirable to create back pressure and pressure differentials for sound and increased flow.

Fred55

04-24-2009, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by TNT1

Same concept tho in much of the engine tracks with repect to airflow, like in the intake track FCI we decrease velocity increase pressure by down sizing(converge) from the filter. Just the opposite on the exhaust where we want to increase velocity decrease pressure(diverge) although there are times it's desirable to create back pressure and pressure differentials for sound and increased flow.

It's pretty cool that you do post this stuff here. This is just the stuff we finished in my Fluid Dynamics and Thermo classes this semester. It's a lot nicer to be able to see ATV stuff and understand whats behind it all.

cdoskocil9

05-04-2009, 05:13 PM

TNT any word on the motor???

TNT

05-04-2009, 05:17 PM

Still waiting for parts. :confused:

cdoskocil9

05-04-2009, 05:23 PM

Can Am parts??? Have you tried talking to Warnerts Parts Dept???

TNT

05-04-2009, 05:38 PM

Yes and Yes! :confused:

cdoskocil9

05-04-2009, 05:59 PM

Sorry to hear that I thought they could for sure help goodluck man

dbkbushwacker

05-28-2009, 06:23 PM

Any updates TNT1?

TNT

05-28-2009, 06:44 PM

Yo! Hey guys sorry I have not been around much lately. I got relocated from Wichita, KS to Charleston, SC for work. I'm in Birmingham, AL at Walmart in my racing rig bored reading the forums lol and s/b in SC tomorrow.

Anyhow, last I heard from my son Trever is we have all the parts except the cylinder/sleeve(supplier is on vacation) and should have it running in the next week. We were at 48 WHP when it blew at 1/2-3/4 throttle so we are expecting good power. I hope to post the results soon. I'll be real busy with this new job, helping get the new Boeing 787 Dreamliner in the air and in mass production in a beautiful part of the country, so Ill post some 09 DS450 results asap.

Terry

TNT

Lata! :D

dbkbushwacker

06-08-2009, 06:26 PM

Any word on the FCI intake TNT?

TNT

06-09-2009, 07:55 AM

We should be testing it and a few other things here real soon. I'll post results asap.

ml450r

06-09-2009, 04:52 PM

TNT,
Where was Trevor saturday, I came down to Wichita and raced. I figured he would be there on his Yamaha. Is he still going to try to qualify for Moberly race.
Merrill

TNT

06-09-2009, 07:30 PM

No to be honest we're not having a very good season. We had problems with the Can am motor as everyone knows but that should be resolved in the next week we hope, and the Yamaha has got to the point where it is so old it's unsafe to race. Then to top it off I got tranfered to Charelston, SC so I'm not as involved as can be seen by the reduction in my post, but we will be back on track here soon Trever racing KS locals and whats left of TQRA.

If I stay here long term and Trever stays in Wichita we'll hit more nationals between us. Guys if you never been to Charleston, SC it is absolutely beautiful here. On the ocean surrounded by 1000's of Island's, literally, lots of revolution and civil war battle fields and history, plantations, York Town, Fort Sumter, and it's so close to sea level here they call it "low country".

Doubt we make HLR Merril but Trever is meeting me out at Loretta Lynn's what Aug 15 weekend I think it is. I got my big rig here living in it right now at a RV park, even got 7-8 foot aligators in the swamp behind(my back yard lol), so look us up anyone that goes to LL I'll be wearing new aligator cowboy boots :D

coryatver

06-10-2009, 10:50 PM

so your putting together the same combination of parts that blew? Or did you figure out what when wrong?

TNT

06-10-2009, 11:32 PM

What went wrong had nothing to do w/the parts or combination of parts. It was human error in the build. People make mistakes. I'm sure it won't happen again. Just talked to Trever today, the guy making the cylinder sleeve had been on vacation and is catching up and should get to ours in the next day or too. Once we have that the quad will be on the dyno the next day. I'm anxious to see what we get and proove some parts... The motor's big bore and the FCI is imo the best on the market...it needs some tweeking still but it delivers the most non restrictive air to the intake along with the other track mods we did. I think we have a good configuration, just ashame it's taken this long to proove it. Oh well thats racing!

TNT

07-26-2009, 02:57 PM

We had our first SX race last night under the lights on our 09 and won the pro class, it was a local sponsored by our Can-am dealership so the pressure was on my boy and the DS delivered. He beat fast riders on YFZr and 09 LTR w/simular mods and shocks. He said it ran awesome, and the PEPs where the best shocks he ever rode. It’s still not fully tuned but I will say this when we did a quick tune it put out more torque then YFZr we have in the shop with similar mod’s. Not bad since the YFZ has small valves and we are beating it at the low-mid-high.

Hopefully they get it dialed soon so we can see where we are at.

I just want to thank Can-am and our dealership Marine World, Wichita, KS and JSR performance our Engine Builder for all the support in getting this quad back on the track.

Team graphics on the way ....

Next Goal: Top 5 A-Class Loretta Lynn.

ml450r

07-26-2009, 06:17 PM

Congragulations on your win. So the bike is working good for you?

I had the incident where the light was flashing and went into safe mode. I took off the ported head and race cams. The motor is now stock with a slip on motorworks pipe, pink wire cut and Rossier intake. I pulled a second place start and won the final moto today at Moberly in +30. The bike seems to run great in this configuration. I have the handling figured out with the +1 forward a arms I put on it. It is still underpowered to run the nationals with but an awesome bike for local racing. I only bought the bike too chase contingency money at nats. I have not had the best of luck with that..lol. So I will probably be selling it soon.:(

craigmacphee

07-26-2009, 06:32 PM

Congrats on a long road well travelled. I am glad to see your build and work has paid off. Keep up the good work. Craig

TNT

07-26-2009, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by ml450r
Congragulations on your win. So the bike is working good for you?

I had the incident where the light was flashing and went into safe mode. I took off the ported head and race cams. The motor is now stock with a slip on motorworks pipe, pink wire cut and Rossier intake. I pulled a second place start and won the final moto today at Moberly in +30. The bike seems to run great in this configuration. I have the handling figured out with the +1 forward a arms I put on it. It is still underpowered to run the nationals with but an awesome bike for local racing. I only bought the bike too chase contingency money at nats. I have not had the best of luck with that..lol. So I will probably be selling it soon.:(

Yes it's working good so far knock on wood but you know as well as I that the more hours the more problems on any quad, so I want him to take a little more time with the shocks getting use to it then park it for LL and use the dirty ol yam for practice (hate that quad...lol)....I may send him to Red Bud.

So Mobelry was this weekend and you won the Champ in 30+, what about pro-am how you do I'm guessing on your HON. I forgot the top class is it pro-am they changed it from last year. Anyway, thats awesome! on practically a stock quad....Funny cuz all this talk about hp's, torque, dyno results, etc.....means very little race results speak volumes.

Thanks Craig, yeah it's been a long haul.

ml450r

07-26-2009, 08:24 PM

it wasnt the championship race, just another qualifier. +30 was moto 1, The A class was moto 4. Way to exhausted to keep pushing. I pulled both holeshots and faded to 3rd. Jeff Robbins took a 2-1 and jason took 1-2.

TNT

08-11-2009, 07:23 PM

Got ours all tuned on the dyno today we a producing some awesome spiked bottom end torque (about 35) then we flatten out. Leaving for Loretta Lynn tomorrow morning to give it a run in the A/16-24-class when we return put some adjustable cam’s on and see if we can peak out some more HP. Wish us luck! :D

Will post photos when I get back

TNT

11-10-2009, 02:20 PM

We finally concluded our 2009 DS 495 big bore project on the dyno today after completely tearing the motor down to clean out the sump and deal with some crank gears that grinded when our oil squirter failed, with a whopping 35.22 ft-lbs of torque and 50 hp on E-85 gas. Don't have the graphs to post you'll just have to trust me..We start dropping off about 8,000 rpm so some shifting a little early will be needed. That’s some pretty good torque which I am more concerned about on this quad than HP so not disappointed at all. This will be a competitive national MX Open A-Class quad. IF we stroked this kit w/a Falicon it would SCREAM!!!!....be concerned about reliability tho...

Now we are going to run it hard starting at the “GNC Good time National” this weekend Oak Hill, TX in one of the top classes and see how it performs. Probably run some CCP indoor arenas this winter then may go to a 450 for MX Nationals in March.

Thanks BCS, Motoworks, FCI, CV4, CP, Marine World Wichita, KS and BRP for all the support it was a long haul!!!

ScottB125

11-11-2009, 02:52 PM

Good to hear you got it all worked out and running.

TNT

11-11-2009, 03:07 PM

Thanks! Just talked to my boy Trever, he just got off the track with it and said it's running great has incredible torque, must be the light weight. Kids 20 in top condition and said it was wearing him down hard to hold on and he now needs to get in better shape lol......Good!

I need to look at some gearing now, to bring the torque up for
longer tracks.........Who is it that sells gears Tag?

Soon as I talk to him again I'll find out what he has to say about PC 5 vs PC 3, we had 3 now got 5.

Dale you going to Oak Hill? He'll be there #101.

TNT

11-12-2009, 10:55 AM

Trever says BIG improvement in throttle response w/PC5 autotuner compared to PC3.

HOBS DS450

11-12-2009, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by TNT
Thanks! Just talked to my boy Trever, he just got off the track with it and said it's running great has incredible torque, must be the light weight. Kids 20 in top condition and said it was wearing him down hard to hold on and he now needs to get in better shape lol......Good!

I need to look at some gearing now, to bring the torque up for
longer tracks.........Who is it that sells gears Tag?

Soon as I talk to him again I'll find out what he has to say about PC 5 vs PC 3, we had 3 now got 5.

Dale you going to Oak Hill? He'll be there #101.

TNT- Tag has 13 and 14 tooth fronts, 38 and 39 tooth rears if I remember correctly.

TNT

11-14-2009, 06:54 PM

So we got throttle probs at the race practice today in Tx after running fine at home, bogging down w/qiuck throttling probs out of corners etc, bogging so I gave him a list of things to check tomorrow morning. I think its fuel or air, more like an air prob somewhere. I hope we figure it out otherwise i am so sick of this quad and will go somewhere else. Motorworks or BCS or BRP give him a call and help he is running VERY strong and very fast for the DS450 pro class at "GNC good time national" in TX can-am and will win or place it top 3 it once the prob is fixed...316 644 9975 Trever out of Wichita, KS, or we got to run the ol YAM in A-class but people are getting tired of our issues and the Can there are no other cans at this level besides Cody and he is gone so we need some more help!

We are running a full indoor national Ax CCP an Arena Cross Tours series to get inshape for MX nationals and see how the quad does on a can on this quad this winter in MS, TN, OK, and need it to work to get to top of the pro-class, so call em. early TX time. thx. Terry

TNT

11-14-2009, 07:28 PM

Sorry 400Ex but we need a little help from some pros I want this quad to win this national pro class or place I will address your prob soon so I bumping this up for now! BCS, BRP, Motoworks call Trever 316-644-9975 in TX at a National early in the AM b4 the racing begins please!...thx, Terry

TNT

11-15-2009, 06:58 AM

Now this morning he says the neutral light pc5 and everythings stays on when he turns the switch and key off. :confused:

Only thing I can think is the switch, anyone seen this b4?

TNT

11-15-2009, 09:06 AM

Update: He didn't have enough gas in it was the darn problem lol.....Just got done with the first moto. He took a step up nobody was jumping then got in some soft sand after landing it and flipped it making a pass for 2nd....still got 3rd hole shot, 4-5th finish he thinks not sure in Open Expert.....If he does good in moto two he can get that overall up.

Guess the plastic seat bracket got a worse crack is all that happen looks like its time to get rid of it.

Missed the practice this am working on the quad that hurt. He says this quad is totally different shifting than the YAM.

One other wreck in that class yesterday, Johnney Hale, a rear shock failure of a jump.

LTRracer4

11-15-2009, 10:15 AM

Its so crazy how you can totally on top of checking every little thing on the quad and then its something minor that is overlooked that bites you.

TNT

11-15-2009, 11:46 AM

2nd place moto 2 whoo-hoo! 5-2, maybe 3rd over all....Right behind Johnney 2 bike lengths in M2. Johnney runs about upper mid pack national pro-am on a HON. I guess some other top national pro-am guy named Kyle or something like that was in first till he wrecked. Man sounds like a few wrecks in that class must be the sandy Oak Hill track, stuff stops you dead in your tracks if you hit the wrong pocket.

I know both Johnney and Trever went accross the finish line with wounded knees....

Anyhow not bad he says he needs more practice getting use to the quad and shifting. The PEP shocks he says are amazing super easy to dial in.

We'll get ya next weekend Johnney back in TX, Badlands, Can-am #101 is climbing to the top. :D

BCS Performance

11-16-2009, 05:43 AM

lol, sorry I was not around to see this post. Funny story actually, we were racing at the last neatv event this year and our rider had come in from practice in the morning complaining the bike was popping, sputtering ect. Checked everything over replaced all the sensors to be safe and turns out it was just low on fuel. Wish I would have seen your post I probably would have caught on to that one right away and called you. Anyways congrats on the finishes and I'm glad you figured it out.

TNT

11-16-2009, 08:11 AM

Thanks BCS....Trever is going to call you later today we need a seat bracked over nighted for the race this weekend, and find out where your at on the harness. Also I don't think he has figured out why the nuetral light and PC5 is staying on all the time even with the key off. I think it's the switch...need to get the new harness soon so we don't have these problems anymore. We're doing alot of traveling and AX this winter in difference states. It's hard for me to help since I'm in SC he's in KS and I can only go to a few races.

That seat bracket I am wondering if it goes over the recovery for now or we got to remove and do all the rad mods now since we don't got time leaving for TX Friday night and our plastic seat bracket is broke pretty good.

BTW: We got 3rd overall :D

JH Racing

11-16-2009, 09:55 AM

It was not a shock problem the bike popped out of gear on the face of the finish line. The shock shaft was ripped out of the body when it flipped. I rode a bone stock except pipe and twist throttle KTM 450 sunday. The other guy was Cody Frew.

TNT

11-16-2009, 10:09 AM

Well your a good rider and so is Cody both mentors and benchmarks for us. That KTM probably has a much torque and hp as we got so I am still proud of what we accomplished, especially with less than half your time racing. :D

Thank goodness Chase, Cody Miller, and Thomas didn't show.....lol!Too busy at GH I guess.

PS: Trever's going to call you about some gear we need some.

Go to Badlands we need all the help we can get. :D Bring some gear. Need a helmet too.

THEMACHINIST

12-27-2009, 12:55 PM

:) Hey tnt give us some news,how's that quad is runing so far?
And do you know if rekluse are going to do one for us(clutch)?I'm asking you that one because you always know all the top secret stuff haha;)
have good one

TNT

12-27-2009, 05:14 PM

Well we were blowing copper head gaskets(2 in a row) now back to modified stock seems to be holding up for couple AX’s last couple weeks we got another I think next weekend and will see how it goes. Motor is pulling around 50hp and close to 37 tq. Clutch is holding real good and quad handles great!

We’re waiting for BCS to test their latest race harness weather permitting soon and will be working with them to put in a simplified cooling system and looking at a 450 as soon as we prove this big bore and need a top end.

One could get falicon to build a stroker crank for this big bore and this quad would be VERY fast, how reliable would be the question. The 450 has come a long way since a year ago when we started this build we plan on going back to 450 now to run Production next season, but I am glad we got a big bore option on the market that works although it cost us a lot of time and $.

Sorry I don’t know much about the Rekluse.

Here’s our latest mods we are currently running .....

495CC
13:1 CP
50MM TB (BRP)
Web Cams
Ti Retainers ( BRP)
Port (JSR)
Oversize Injector (BRP green)
FCI/Large K$N(prototype)
Rossier Pipe(full)
Race ECU
PC5
CV4 fuel tank boot(prototype)
PEP(PD1) Shocks
Race Team Louvers
ECU protector
Custom Race Team graphics by SSI
Dom 1 Axle
BCS Battery Box

Claas900

12-28-2009, 12:14 PM

For your head gasket problems,try giving this guy a call. 1-814-796-6667 his name is Tim. Leave a MSG if he doesn't answer. I was talking to him about this and he said the built Yamaha's have a lot of problems with head gaskets also. He said he just steps the head about 3tho I think he said and so far they have held up very well. You never know what he might say or come up with.

TNT

12-28-2009, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by Claas900
For your head gasket problems,try giving this guy a call. 1-814-796-6667 his name is Tim. Leave a MSG if he doesn't answer. I was talking to him about this and he said the built Yamaha's have a lot of problems with head gaskets also. He said he just steps the head about 3tho I think he said and so far they have held up very well. You never know what he might say or come up with.

Thanks for the info...we tried to catch up with the guy that put the sleeve in but he was out for the holidays...I wanted a check so we checked it ourselves and it looked ok. Not sure I'll invest any more in it if it fails again lets hope not. :D

I'm half tempted to put a stroker in with it but my son wants the Production class not Open. :D Unless we find some good 450 power he'll be hard pressed with this quad w/a 450 in Open. We're talking to Motoworks as soon as Kye calls him back and BCS to see what we can do to put it on the 2010 A-Podium.....:D

I'll be sending the prototype FCI in soon as we get a break in racing and or YAM running again, few weeks I think.

Blizzard24

12-29-2009, 04:55 AM

Terry, not sure why you would be hard pressed to find power w a 450, the National Pros have to run a 450cc max limit. I'm pretty sure they have some power coming out of them :p

xrxmxcx

12-29-2009, 08:41 AM

I am with Blizzard with that one, maybe you should look into having the head done by someone?

TNT

12-29-2009, 09:55 AM

Hard pressed I meant $, I've talked to some and read some post out here that claim HP/TQ in the 55-60/37+ tq, some with just 3 mods.......others with more but makes me wonder what there smoking what dyno they are using and thier correction factor.....lol....also how much I will have to spend race after race to maintain these mods.

U know I always get a kick out of these hp/tq claims....what the stock DS puts out about 38-40hp/30-32tq, member LTR311 #'s or so and poor bottom end tq, how you can gain 15-20hp/7-8tq with a port/pipe/pc3 baffles me.

I talked to all the big motor builders about a year ago, they told me I can get alot out of the 450 but not reliable, some said no more than 52hp/33tq.....then and still now I heard them challange each other. I said I'll give you your $2-3, 000 to get me there 55hp/37tq but we got a brand new eddy current dyno jet and when we put it under the same load we should get the same results or I'll send your motor back......Well I think we should be within +/- 2 to the numbers I paid for sounds fair! Most lost interest in me......lol!....lots of problems back them in the motor too so I decided on the big bore and to stay local it can't be any worse little did I know...lol....not that these #s mean everything bt they are a good indication of performance.

I'll try again starting with BCS and Motoworks and I'll be hard pressed to see what it cost, how reliable, how fast the work can be done, how they back thier numbers and product, etc........maybe I'll have more luck this time if not we'll stay at home again and do it ourselfs we got a new mechanic thats pretty good named Kyle Robi.

A lot of our mods should be usefull, our pipe Rossier is a good one, our Cams are the same grind the race team usued a year ago, etc......Guess I'll send them a list of mods and see how much they can use and want to sell me then go from there.

xrxmxcx

12-29-2009, 10:01 AM

You make it sound like your head is already "ported"?

TNT

12-29-2009, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by xrxmxcx
You make it sound like your head is already "ported"?

It is we did it local I stated that above are you being sarcastic again?, but of couse MWs wants to redo it to get the numbers.....I look at this way how much is a port going to change my tq/hp? What LTR and others have shown a port only adds 4-6 hp, pipe the same.

XRX tell me something usefull :confused:

xrxmxcx

12-29-2009, 10:08 AM

I know "porting" can be taken many ways, but what exactly did they do to the cylinder head? Many engine builders are having trouble getting power out of these heads because of the large intake tract. I'm sure you have heard it before but the top builders are adding large amounts of epoxy to the head and mounting elbow to reduce the excess volume in the head.

Is your head filled, or just made shiny?

TNT

12-29-2009, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by xrxmxcx
You make it sound like your head is already "ported"?

You know you come out here with a sarcastic attitude to just about everyone that is concerned about spending money, from frames, to axles, to now motors.....I take it from your post you either work for a dealer, have good sponsors and get things cheap or are a spoiled rich kid who has parents that buys him anything....well most of don't and have to pay a lot of money to get these parts.....I have spent a ton on this quad and it is well equiped, no I'm not going to buy a new pipe, new everything or send the head accross the country just for a port. Someone can tell me how to get good 450 power out of most of what I got without spending a forture I will listen.....

TNT

12-29-2009, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by xrxmxcx
I know "porting" can be taken many ways, but what exactly did they do to the cylinder head? Many engine builders are having trouble getting power out of these heads because of the large intake tract. I'm sure you have heard it before but the top builders are adding large amounts of epoxy to the head and mounting elbow to reduce the excess volume in the head.

Is your head filled, or just made shiny?

No it's not filled and we got a big bore and lots of air flow and we use a larger injector to match fuel I don't get why we need all this epoxy and how I am going to gain 10hp and 8lbs of tq with epoxy lol????? :confused:

TNT

12-29-2009, 10:16 AM

Look at the YFZr it has small ports and we cant get more than 55hp and less tq than our ds same mods except the bore....it has small valves too, we got bigger ones with smaller ports you say....makes ALOT of sense but ok.....what do I know.

miles Machine

12-29-2009, 10:48 AM

im thinking what hes getting at is more air velocity take a 2 inch pipe and force air through it its gonna come out the end at the same velocity as its going in now take it at 2 inches at the beginning and put a 1 inch pipe on the end force air through the 2 inch opening and theoretically the air is going to come out twice as fast in this case the intake tract is the 2 inch pipe and the hear ports would be the 1 inch pipe....just my thought so no getting all worked about it

TNT

12-29-2009, 11:23 AM

I'm no engine builder either but it is my understanding that you don't want high velocity but more pressure/turbulance and the more volume/turbulance you have means more atomization of the fuel injection so you don't polish the intake port real smooth.....carbs different story just the opp.

Restricting air flow to big valves just makes no sense to me, I remember hearing Protec/rage epoxies these ports year ago....we decided not to every engine builder thinks different not that there is not something to it but I just don't think I'm going to gain huge 450 reliable power from it alone.

xrxmxcx

12-29-2009, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by TNT
I'm no engine builder either but it is my understanding that you don't want high velocity but more pressure/turbulance and the more volume/turbulance you have means more atomization of the fuel injection so you don't polish the intake port real smooth.....carbs different story just the opp.

Restricting air flow to big valves just makes no sense to me, I remember hearing Protec/rage epoxies these ports year ago....we decided not to every engine builder thinks different not that there is not something to it but I just don't think I'm going to gain huge 450 reliable power from it alone.

The one point you are missing is that with fuel injection (well TB) you get relatively good fuel atomization. Carburetors on the other hand are not near as perfect of a spray as a timed injector. With most carburetors the porting is left with a small amount of roughness to help displace the fuel and encourage atomization.

Fuel injection on the other hand atomizes quite well and it is not as much of a problem getting the proper air to fuel ratio on a large scale. The problem with the DS intake tract like milesMachine said, is that it is to wide and has too much volume to create a proper vacuum and the intake tract is so long that it requires it to be slimmed down to perform well.

I must say, if you are all about a big bore stroker, and go +1 with exhaust and intake there is a chance you might make SOME HP with a bigger throttle body, injector, and whatnot.

In order to make the power out of the 450, you've got too much going in and not enough coming out, and it is a waste to keep opening up the tract larger and larger.

TNT

12-29-2009, 05:05 PM

XRX -The one point you are missing is that with fuel injection (well TB) you get relatively good fuel atomization.

TNT - Really? I’m sure that statement depends on a lot of factor’s and that is very loose way of looking at it.

XRX- Carburetors on the other hand are not near as perfect of a spray as a timed injector. With most carburetors the porting is left with a small amount of roughness to help displace the fuel and encourage atomization.

TNT - Well sorry I have several engine builder's that have been doing quad motors over 30 years on flow benches that think differently....I personally have not seen the flow bench test so I won’t act like I know something I don’t, but this does not make sense and may just depend on the motor and mods.

XRX - Fuel injection on the other hand atomizes quite well and it is not as much of a problem getting the proper air to fuel ratio on a large scale.

TNT – Not necessarily depends on the configuration...you can get a feel for this by pressurizing a combustion can then squirting high velocity fuel directly into it unless there is something to cause some mixing there won’t be much atomization, pressure alone from straight smooth intake ducks won’t do it. Fuel injection is efficient at keeping 14:5:1 or close to it on any scale a carb can’t.

XRX - The problem with the DS intake tract like milesMachine said, is that it is to wide and has too much volume to create a proper vacuum and the intake tract is so long that it requires it to be slimmed down to perform well.

TNT – First off go back and reread Miles post thats not what he said and he had things backwards as far as increase velocity.....You can take any air track and manipulate the pressure and velocity by stepping up or stepping down the flow by cones, the diameter means very little cone sizes(lengths) more, the longer the better! Normally on the intake it’s about building pressure and decreasing velocity in a venturi, on the exhaust just the opposite steping up by cones to gain velocity and decrease pressure, the manipulation of back pressure and pressure differentials.

XRX - I must say, if you are all about a big bore stroker, and go +1 with exhaust and intake there is a chance you might make SOME HP with a bigger throttle body, injector, and whatnot.

TNT - Interesting you say that defies what the race teams suggest I go to even a bigger 52mm TB @ 450 than I got now 50mm and 495cc’s......Don’t remember them saying +1 exhaust if anything everyone agrees the valves are too big and heavy! Pipe can be designed to expel what goes in I think MW’s has come a long way since a year ago at understanding that better.

PS: I like your joke about me have a ported head on my shoulders better but I had just woke up when I read it......lol........maybe I’ll test your theory with a quality cigar and martini New Years eve afterwards maybe blow some cigar smoke down the intake outa prove your theories...j/k! :D

Originally posted by miles Machine
im thinking what hes getting at is more air velocity take a 2 inch pipe and force air through it its gunna come out the end at the same velocity as its going in now take it at 2 inches at the beginning and put a 1 inch pipe on the end force air through the 2 inch opening and theoretically the air is going to come out twice as fast in this case the intake tract is the 2 inch pipe and the hear ports would be the 1 inch pipe....just my thought so no getting all worked about it

What you described above where going from a 2 inch pipe to 1 inch pipe the velocity will DECREASE and the pressure will increase. Any time there is a change in velocity pressure does the opposite....In our intake track we go from a large K&N filter, down size into a FCI venturi shape(like a intake port shape) or intake shroud into a 50mm TB into an smaller elbow and intake manifold/port. It can be as long as you want as long as long as the step down cones and tapering are placed right to enter the combustion chamber under max pressure where the air is combined with adequate injected fuel...Nice thing about the EFI systems is through a series of input ECU parameters(coolant, air pressure differentials, crank speed, etc) it can maintained to a near perfect 14:5:1 stoichiometric mixture of fuel/air the carb cannot, add a PC5 and O2 sensor to keep the ratio “tuned” at all times puts the closed loop EFI system much more efficient than the carb....what you’ll see mainly out of all this is improved throttle response not huge gains in hp/tq.

As far as the pro’s, some I have seen get slower on the Can over the years so I’m skeptic about the 450 comparatively, others I know like Chad in MX can run any quad fast Wimmer put him on a Can same deal...I don’t follow XC much but have seen similar reports out here. I don’t go by what the pro’s are getting could care less, I can’t afford what they do nor do I got that kinda support.

I don’t build quad motors for a living, if I did I’d make a fortune lol, but may be less than my career who knows so I am in the hands of half a dozen people that all have bright costly ideas but little proof of what REALLY works on such a new quad and strange 450 rotax motor......again that being said I am not referring to pro’s or 1-2 engine builders I’m sure got it figured out and the money/support to back it. Hopefully in time either BRP will do something about thier motor or more will figure it out!

:D

TNT

12-29-2009, 07:15 PM

Just got off the phone with my engine builder and we both agree it would be hard to say what would happen with smaller epoxy ports with our Rossier pipe, cams, timing, etc.....we don't think there is ALOT to be gained there, maybe 2-3 hp.....We run E-85 which doesn't detonate as much and is slow burning think we can get more out of advanced timing, adjustable CAMs, and might try micropolishing our internal working parts to reduce friction increase power.

Think we're going to put a 450 hc piston/cyl on what we got no small epoxy ports right now anyway play with timing and cams see what we get on the dyno with our particular MODS......I'm guessing we gain some top lose some bottom... We'll see soon! :D

miles Machine

12-29-2009, 11:14 PM

"Normally on the intake it’s about building pressure and decreasing velocity in a venturi" ok are we talking in a carb or the intake tract because in a carb your wrong as air velocity increases pressure decreases anything that is at a higher pressure=the carb bowl (which is why there vented to atmosphere) will try to go to the area of lower pressure......and thats how a carb works lol

xrxmxcx

12-30-2009, 08:59 AM

Are you running stock compression?

I would imagine if you go to a CP high compression piston (13.6:1), and use a race fuel C12, Sunoco supreme, etc. you would see good results

TNT

12-30-2009, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by TNT
Well we were blowing copper head gaskets(2 in a row) now back to modified stock seems to be holding up for couple AX’s last couple weeks we got another I think next weekend and will see how it goes. Motor is pulling around 50hp and close to 37 tq. Clutch is holding real good and quad handles great!

We’re waiting for BCS to test their latest race harness weather permitting soon and will be working with them to put in a simplified cooling system and looking at a 450 as soon as we prove this big bore and need a top end.

One could get falicon to build a stroker crank for this big bore and this quad would be VERY fast, how reliable would be the question. The 450 has come a long way since a year ago when we started this build we plan on going back to 450 now to run Production next season, but I am glad we got a big bore option on the market that works although it cost us a lot of time and $.

Sorry I don’t know much about the Rekluse.

Here’s our latest mods we are currently running .....

495CC
13:1 CP
50MM TB (BRP)
Web Cams
Ti Retainers ( BRP)
Port (JSR)
Oversize Injector (BRP green)
FCI/Large K$N(prototype)
Rossier Pipe(full)
Race ECU
PC5
CV4 fuel tank boot(prototype)
PEP(PD1) Shocks
Race Team Louvers
ECU protector
Custom Race Team graphics by SSI
Dom 1 Axle
BCS Battery Box

Originally posted by xrxmxcx
You make it sound like your head is already "ported"?

Originally posted by xrxmxcx
Are you running stock compression?

I would imagine if you go to a CP high compression piston (13.6:1), and use a race fuel C12, Sunoco supreme, etc. you would see good results

XRX: I’ve answered your questions above at lease once latest last Sunday(see above) and many times prior. I noticed this thread is getting ALOT of visibility, please read the thread before you post so I don’t have to keep posting the same redundant info for people to re-read.

Originally posted by xrxmxcx
I would imagine if you go to a CP high compression piston (13.6:1), and use a race fuel C12, Sunoco supreme, etc. you would see good results

We found on the dyno with our mods E-85 not only cost less $2.50/gal vs C12 $12/gal in our area but there was no loss in power and it’s available at the gas station. As I stated it burns slower and detonates less so we will see how far we can advance timing.

TNT

12-30-2009, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by miles Machine
"Normally on the intake it’s about building pressure and decreasing velocity in a venturi" ok are we talking in a carb or the intake tract because in a carb your wrong as air velocity increases pressure decreases anything that is at a higher pressure=the carb bowl (which is why there vented to atmosphere) will try to go to the area of lower pressure......and thats how a carb works lol

Both the carb and EFI work off Bernouli’s principles of fluid dynamics. It states “an increase in the speed of the fluid occurs simultaneously with a decrease in pressure or a decrease in the fluid’s potential energy”....... Valid for compressible low Mach(less than Mach .3) number fluids such as air with no viscosity except at the boundary layer which are small and negligible.

Here’s a pic to illustrate what I am talking about,

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/VenturiFlow.png

Look at the water level in the tube to see the pressure differential, more coming in than out.

Now let’s take Bernoulli’s principle over to the carb for Miles........

Here’s a pic.....

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/598px-Carburetor_svg.png

Basic operation – As we can see the carb is basically a straight pipe with a ventrui in the middle that narrows and widens again, airflow increases speed at the narrowest part. The butterfly valve can restrict or allow airflow. This valve controls the quantity of air therefore fuel therefore engine power and speed. The throttle is connected to the accelerator or thumb throttle on the bars by cable. Fuel enters the narrow part of the ventrui through a series of jets and responds to pressure drops due to low/ high velocity flow.

As the throttle valve opens from closed position and idle it uncovers additional jets where there is low pressure by the throttle plate restricting flow. What I mean by that is as the throttle opens higher velocity air will pass by the walls of the pipe creating low pressure compared to the center of the plate. This allows more fuel to pass as the plate opens as well as compensate for reduced vacuum that occurs when the throttle is open. Reduce vacuum meaning the pressure difference between the center of the venturi to the throttle plate, remember in the venturi center velocity is high pressure is low after velocity low pressure high by the valve as it opens. As the throttle plate opens further velocity increases pressure drops at the venturi and increases at the plate, the pressure difference or vacuum is reduced, thus smoothing the transition to metering fuel flow through regular open throttle.

As the throttle becomes fully open the manifold vacuum and pressure at the venturi is lessened allowing more fuel to be sucked into the higher velocity airstream. As the throttle is closed the airflow through the venturi drops again allowing the idle circuit to take over again.

Problem with the small carb is Bernoulli’s principle becomes inefficient at slow speeds, or as the result of temperature or density changes, or work(potential/kenetic energy change, loss due to viscous flow). EFI by means of Ambient Air Pressure and Temp Sensor located in the air box, MAP in the TB/manifold,) O2 sensor in the exhaust accommodates such inefficiencies.

If you followed all that you did good if not ask questions...Hope that helps understand the carb better and some of the EFI differences.

miles Machine

12-30-2009, 11:35 PM

that just a way higher detailed explanation of what i said higher air velocity equals lower air pressure .... carb bowls are vented to atmosphere which is higher than the pressure being produced in the carb venturi because the velocity is greater.......you need to stop trying to sound so smart all the time with your high detailed explanations of stuff no ones herd of (space time continuum bull lmao) because its way annoying listening to you every time someone asks a question, you must have been one of those kids in school no one liked because they always tried to sound so smart...no offense.

im leaving it at that xrxmxcx because this guy will never listen to anyone else because hes to fat headed....but know im on your side because i didnt see one post were he claims your being sarcastic hes just got a stick up his ***.

TNT

12-31-2009, 07:09 AM

Originally posted by miles Machine
that just a way higher detailed explanation of what i said higher air velocity equals lower air pressure .... carb bowls are vented to atmosphere which is higher than the pressure being produced in the carb venturi because the velocity is greater.......you need to stop trying to sound so smart all the time with your high detailed explanations of stuff no ones herd of (space time continuum bull lmao) because its way annoying listening to you every time someone asks a question, you must have been one of those kids in school no one liked because they always tried to sound so smart...no offense.

im leaving it at that xrxmxcx because this guy will never listen to anyone else because hes to fat headed....but know im on your side because i didnt see one post were he claims your being sarcastic hes just got a stick up his ***.

LOL....Well your wrong I barley graduated high school 25 years ago, your wrong about venting to atmoshpere and your example going from a 2" to 1" pipe no where close to how a carb venturi-straight pipe no change in diameter works....You obviously don't understand whats written above how it REALLY works nor do you want to, just want to defend yourself like a HS kid when I was not attacking you just trying to help you...I won't comment on the rest of your comments that lack knowledge if you don't like what I write on my thread VERY simply DON'T READ IT!!!......Most of what I wrote I got from other sites which is VERY obvious called research before posting try it, and learned from it myself and don't take credit for it(no big head here) I struggled understanding parts so I broke it down....That's why I put it out here for other people to learn from and yes broke it down to more detail to make it easier to understand, hopefully some did and most I know appreciate my efforts sad you don't despite your mockery.... people like you make me question why I even bother, just an honest attemp to help people out including you and I understand how carbs and EFI work, sorry! ........Happpy New Year!!! :D

XRX" I know him quite well he's ALOT smarter than this likes to learn and your post don't leave it to him to back your post your on your own buddy! :D

Here another tid bid of info you may not understand or what to challange, the DS450 HAS NO CARB......try your vast knowledge on the subject over on the HON site ask your questions there (which I doubt you have or we would have seen a detail explaination on venting and how it works with the venturi?) and STOP hi-jacking this VERY informative "CAN AM DS450 TNT BUILD" thread....Thanks! :D

miles Machine

12-31-2009, 09:10 AM

ok the pipe thing was a poor example but i dont think your understanding. you say pressure is high in the venturi and yes the way Bernoulli principle states your correct but thats the dynamic pressure....static pressure is lower....and i am right about the vent...serves to purposes maintain atmosphere pressure and prevents the bowl from hydro locking
http://www.motorcycleproject.com/motorcycle/text/newcarbs01intro.html

go to this link and look at the first part under the carburetors beginning.
try not to look at such advanced stuff next time and confuse yourself....course ik your gonna reply with some smart *** comeback because you wont let anything go and admit your wrong...because ooo god forbid if you didnt know something...one thing ive learned is no body knows everything and its to much of a pain in the *** to try and claim you do....take what you want from that.

TNT

12-31-2009, 09:18 AM

miles Machine

12-31-2009, 11:47 AM

fine....you were the one starting it tho with miss information and all i was doing is as what you say educating you...you were wrong just admit it...and now that you know it your threatening me....whos the hs kid now....i had alot of respect for you too because ik your are smart and know alot but when your wrong and dont want to here it from other ppl you get upset...respect right out the window for thos kind of ppl. and as far as me being disrespectful thats all you buddy trying to prove everybody wrong on every post you go to...take your childness else were.

officially done here wont bother you guys again

TNT

12-31-2009, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by miles Machine
fine....you were the one starting it tho with miss information and all i was doing is as what you say educating you...you were wrong just admit it...and now that you know it your threatening me....whos the hs kid now....i had alot of respect for you too because ik your are smart and know alot but when your wrong and dont want to here it from other ppl you get upset...respect right out the window for thos kind of ppl. and as far as me being disrespectful thats all you buddy trying to prove everybody wrong on every post you go to...take your childness else were.

officially done here wont bother you guys again

If you read many of my post and ask most anyone out here on the Can-am site I am the first to admit when I am wrong.

Present fact to back your arguments, present it in your own word’s or at least try to explain how it relates to the topic (EFI) at hand , don’t give links....much of what you find or read doesn’t make it complete, right, or apply.

Ok now that I am sensing somewhat of an apology out of you, although this is not a carb quad we will look at your link YOU understand and I will disifer it.....

http://www.motorcycleproject.com/motorcycle/text/newcarbs01intro.html

Ok reading, yes carbs have an air to RPM relationship, makes sense the ratio of fuel to air is over 10 times over the RPM curve.....I can’t imagine many mechanics struggle with that as the article states but ok, let’s read more.....

"Carb is more of air instrument than fuel ok", I think my initial post about cones and stepping up-down pipes as a venturi explained that and the latest on how the butterfly valve works with the venturi. Ok reading more......

Ok two paragraphs on the importance of air...got it!

Ok more on the venturi got it.....what we already went over....good!

Ok see the vents I think you were referring to in the fuel delivery passages, vent to atmosphere since it is higher than the venturi...mind you this has nothing to do with the venturi itself or static air, it’s dynamic fuel/air they are referring to. What we are doing in putting bleed air into the fuel so it ‘vaporizes” or turns to a gas. Thats where we get atomization too, not the ports.

Ok idle mixture screw try’s to adjust ½ air capacity, different method than one above and I can see how this method changes the fuel/air ratio and the old one above does not. Prob was mix in the cyl was uneven lack combustion, hard to adjust poor atomization ok.....

Ok more on the evolution of the idle “bleed air” screw moving it down stream fuel for more impact to “fuel/air”/ screw, to offset conditions (absolute temp, density changes I gather) allowing “fixed” atomization with fuel/air changes, moving more toward EFI, I observe.

More on how adjustable screws became fixed.......

Then this, ah ha!...more on vapor venting....

"Eventually, the carburetor wasn't even allowed to vent to atmosphere unless the engine was running, and then only through a system of vapor traps and automatic valves."

If that preventing vapor lock or reducing fuel vapor or the perforated fuel tubes in old carb designs is what you were referring to that change the pressure of incoming air in the carb/efi you are mistaken......The first removes fuel vapor, the holes in fuel tubes help promote mixture but did not work on acient carbs......those little .050 or whatever fuel tubes w/small holes will have no effect on the pressure in the venturi especially when they are combined with fuel. You have to change velocity to change pressure, you will see more mixing thats it from this technique. You may see some very, very, small pressure drops at the output fuel port/venturi boundry layer resulting from turbulance but not worth mentioning, again mainly to mix fuel not get more air velocity or pressure to the cyl.

So I’m confussed, teach me something? Where did I state something wrong? Explain to me what you were talking about?

Otherwise be nice, sweet, and HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!

I wish I were in school again it was 30 years ago not 25......So long ago I forgot what year I graduated 78 or 79 and my high school sweetheart always gives me sh** for it...LOL! :D

Everyone BE SAFE TONIGHT! I want to see ya all next year at the track! 2010 in 7.5 hours here on the east coast...Woo-hoo! :cool:

miles Machine

12-31-2009, 04:35 PM

"If that preventing vapor lock or reducing fuel vapor or the perforated fuel tubes in old carb designs is what you were referring to that change the pressure of incoming air in the carb/efi you are mistaken"

i wasnt suggesting that...i was simply stating that the pressure indifference between the venturi and the bowl is how fuel is made to flow from the bowl up the jets..venturi pressure lower than bowl pressure which is atmosphere pressure makes fuel flow to the lower pressure area of the venturi....like you stated the emulsion tube that has all the holes in it is simply to atomize fuel better...as well as the air bleeds....srry to get this off topic but i seen a part were it said something about a carb and to be the way it was explained it seemed wrong but i think this was all a big misunderstanding between how we both are interpreting each others statements.......and yes ik the ds's have fuel injection which i love fuel injection more than carbs ne day, i build computers and electronics are my thing so thats mainly y just seems natural to me.....srry for any flaming, lets all try to get along

TNT

12-31-2009, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by miles Machine
"If that preventing vapor lock or reducing fuel vapor or the perforated fuel tubes in old carb designs is what you were referring to that change the pressure of incoming air in the carb/efi you are mistaken"

i wasnt suggesting that...i was simply stating that the pressure indifference between the venturi and the bowl is how fuel is made to flow from the bowl up the jets..venturi pressure lower than bowl pressure which is atmosphere pressure makes fuel flow to the lower pressure area of the venturi....like you stated the emulsion tube that has all the holes in it is simply to atomize fuel better...as well as the air bleeds....srry to get this off topic but i seen a part were it said something about a carb and to be the way it was explained it seemed wrong but i think this was all a big misunderstanding between how we both are interpreting each others statements.......and yes ik the ds's have fuel injection which i love fuel injection more than carbs ne day, i build computers and electronics are my thing so thats mainly y just seems natural to me.....srry for any flaming, lets all try to get along

Ok now I see what your saying and yes you were right, but I think they are referring to an old design thats 180 degree from efi, did not work nor atomize well....not sure if we perforate fuel tubes in modern small carbs, but I can see the probs using the venturi since at idle or closed throttle there is no vacuum..when the throttle is fully open and more rich fuel is required that small venturi may not be adequate especially in slow flow small carbs, why there are accelerator pumps and efi now, not to mention can't compare to efi computer tracking of crank speeds, absolute/MAP temp, pressure and carbon monoxide/deoxide(O2) changes, coolant temps/pressure, etc....one of the things that places the DS450 above the rest!

If your a PC/computer/electronics guy get into the ECU time line and frequency(pulse) monoriting of EFI, learn how to change the pressurized fuel requirements of the efi fuel pump and how to elimminate it and the battery/starter solenoid effectively. Design a effective fuel/air ratio "lean" wire harness & programable state of the art fully digital after market ECU that requires no supplemental IE: PC5/input-output sensor(s), or some facimility there of.

But yes good article my friend no hard feeling's here happy new years be safe if you go out.......Terry :D

miles Machine

01-01-2010, 02:57 AM

well i build computers like desktops and laptops lol i dont think im smart enough to design anything like a ECU....but ik cannondales and dont laugh but they have the most adjustable ecu's there is so much you can change on them from injector pressure...fuel curves and ignition curves....i hope a company steps it up like they did eventually because they were way ahead of there time and i think in a way they still are.

TNT

01-01-2010, 05:40 PM

Here since like us some may own carb motors too and Miles got me into this, I put together some notes for my own benefit based on my understanding thought I share it w/those interested.....recap on the differences and commonalities between the carb and DS450 efi.

1. To atomize (take fuel-air, mix, vaporize to a gas, covert to atom components with atomic structure) under all operating conditions. This chemical reaction occurs in time as determined by the flash point of fuel, gas pressure and temperatures.

Carb- completed in the carb or venturi or a low pressure area relative to higher atmoshere vent where fuel is delivered and/or manipulated. Coned down by venturi high pressure/low velocity air entering the venturi, needs as much velocity as possible from the intake track since the faster it travels through the venturi narrow center or lower pressure area the better it atomizes draws w/fuel. As air exits the venturi and carb into the port it is coned back up, velocity goes back down pressure rises again. As atomized fuel/air under pressure enters the head port to once again be coned down increase velocity decrease pressure for delivery to the intake stroke, we have a pressure drop at the port for vacuum delivery to the combustion chamber.

EFI- fuel pump pressure enters the intake manifold by injector where combined with air or vaccum pressure from the intake track. The intake track is coned down by venturi shape from the filter(like a carb intake) but there is no venturi in the throttle body, intake manifold, or low pressure area to combine with fuel. EFI intake track builds velocity to be combined with fuel pressure in the intake manifold where atomizing takes place pre-port, a rough port would promote atomization to the intake stroke-combustion chamber. More so in smaller ports where airflow is narrower and more turbulent.

Here’s an animated link try playing with the venturi watch flow rates: Try coned down and cone ups....Take down the size of the cone down ports like epoxy does and see what happens....the pressure drops velocity increase like a carb entering the center of venturi....animation takes a little while to load be patient then scroll down.

http://home.earthlink.net/~mmc1919/venturi.html

Here’s pic of my intake,

INTAKE rough port..
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/exhaust.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/exhaustcloseup.jpg

Note: smaller ports epoxy down does two things: may help promote fuel atomization depending on the duration of turning fuel/air gas to atoms based on temp/MAP, provides a lower pressure area relative to the intake stroke. How much usfull HP provides in this motor TBD, guess little HP, little more TQ, 1-2 ft-lb.

3. Utilize the venturi to manipulate air flow and fuel delivery (velocity and pressure)

Carb- more dependant on the venturi where fuel is delivered by multiple jets, a downside since it relies on restricted air flow throttle response can lack “punch” which an accelerator pump can help, also changes in temperature and density require rejetting and are not accounted for by the system like EFI.

EFI has sensors (Ambient Air Pressure and Temp(AAPTS) in the air box, Manifold Absolute Pressure(actual pressure at manifold not relative to ambient, (MAP)), O2 sensor in exhaust sent to the ECU/PC5 as input parameters.

4. Both work under vacuum pressure to manipulate pressure differentials over the RPM range but differently.

Carb- has butterfly valve that works in conjunction with the venturi, as the valve opens the pressure difference between it and the venturi lessens and visa-versa which controls fuel delivery. Some carbs incorporate piston spring controlled needle valves that control fuel delivery and operate off a vacuum bleed from the carb.

EFI- the butterfly valve in the throttle body is calibrated to the ECU and is the base timeline for sensor inputs or voltage pulse frequency signals. When combined with coolant temp and crank speeds deliver fuel quantities based on injector size.

IMO EFI wins hands down!

:cool:

X400EX

01-01-2010, 06:46 PM

Thanks for this terry, I've learned a lot. Great post!

ZX11

01-01-2010, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by TNT

Note: smaller ports epoxy down does two things: may help promote fuel atomization depending on the duration of turning fuel/air gas to atoms based on temp/MAP, provides a lower pressure area relative to the intake stroke. How much usfull HP provides in this motor TBD, guess little HP, little more TQ, 1-2 ft-lb.

Raising the velocity of the air/fuel charge also gives the cylinder a better swirl effect. When formula one engines where built with too large intake tracks, the engine wouldn't make power compared to competitors. Lotus lowered the size of the intakes ports with epoxy to raise the velocity of the air/fuel charge and made the engine competitive. It was important to them to get a lot of movement of the charge when it was in the cylinder. This ensured the best burn of the fuel charge. It had something to due to the fact that the spark is contacting only part of the fuel charge in the cylinder. And that the air/fuel charge is of varying densities in the cylinder due to the very short amount of time it has to fill the space.

I gave up on porting my sport bikes (750 ninja, ZX-11) heads when it turned out there was more to making power than simply flowing lots of air :ermm:

TNT

01-04-2010, 08:53 PM

Let’s take a closer look at the ECU and piggy back fuel controllers......I did some research for a better understanding if you have more or clarity please post. Could not find anything related to our quads specifically so pieced together from other sources.

As I stated above several ECU input parameters generates fuel delivery to the injector.....Piggy back fuel controller’s intercept the fuel signal and modify it’s pulse(band width), what I mean by pulse is frequency band widths or duration of spray to some percentage (IE: -100%/+200%) based on RPMs. Some modify ECU input parameters or “trick” the inputs from air sensor signals to do what you want. Let’s take the MAP sensor for example, the piggyback tricks the ECU into thinking there’s more or less airflow so the ECU “jumps” to the fuel command to add or subtract the time the injector stays open (more on commands soon). Disadvantages are piggy backs do not have limp mode/rev limiter control, direct ignition commands. The PC and ones we use on our quads modify the fuel signal and therefore airflow and timing based on tables we will look at later and how. There are dyno “tuning points” on the RPM curve that the program in the piggy can modify by a PC program, by changing the fuel delivery table, AFR air-to-fuel ratio, trim as w/PC 5 auto tune,. With piggy backs we are still dealing with the stock fuel commands only since the ECU and its fuel program (tables) are still working, again the piggy back only modifies fuel not air on ours. For a given level of “engine load” (as indicated by O2 sensor and rpm/tire sensors on the dyno), there is a preset program for how much fuel is delivery to offset lean/rich conditions. All we do w/piggy backs is change the fuel delivery to thinking the engine load has changed pair it with fixed values from the factory ECU(more on that later).

So let’s recap, the ECU has fixed non-programmable tables that determine fuel deliver based on several input parameters, the piggy backs based on MAPs stored internally or created (dyno/O2) modify in-line fuel delivery or voltage only.

I wanted to throw that out to see if anyone knows more or differently. If not I’ll continue with some tables/programs and how they work in detail. Also the benefits of having an ECU that is programmable.

:D

miles Machine

01-04-2010, 09:26 PM

pretty damn spot on with description. I see one thing tho. were it says "Some modify ECU input parameters or “trick” the inputs from air sensor signals to do what you want. Let’s take the MAP sensor for example, the piggyback tricks the ECU into thinking there’s more or less airflow so the ECU “jumps” to the fuel command to add or subtract the time the injector stays open (more on commands soon)" most fuel controllers i have installed (pc's, yosh, fmf, and hmf) run in series between the injector and the ecu altering the feed FROM the ecu to the injector not from the sensors to the to the ecu with the exception of the TPS.....if it was the other way each sensor would hook up to the fuel controller unless the ds's are different which is very possible, but for kfx and ltr there how i described

TNT

01-05-2010, 07:59 PM

I agree our DS piggy backs are the same as the rest they don’t read incoming ECU sensors, see or reprogram the ECU. I just threw that in for ppl to understand some of the more advanced costly ones do this.

Here’s a flow diagram to make it clear,
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/EFIPRESENTATIONpic1.jpg
Let’s take a look inside the ECU, it’s program then we'll look inside Piggy Backs too.....

Here is the “table” I was referring that makes up the ECU program...ignore the numbers just illustration purposes. I could not find an actual table so I made this one up of our ECU how I believe it works......

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/EFIPresentation2pic.jpg

Vertically you can see all the inputs from sensors which are voltage inputs or bandwidths, output: just fuel and fuel delivery (how long the injector stays open). Horizontally throttle positions which everything is calibrated to. The voltage pulse or band width from the sensor(s) and its design corresponds to a value in the table and are varied by engine load/rpm. So let’s take MAP for example, as air flow increase the sensor is designed to put a different frequency that the ECU can convert to a tabular value or units of mbar which is air flow. Each input parameter makes its conversion accordingly and the program determines a fuel delivery based on combined inputs at that throttle position. The actual table is much larger than this, with 100’s of values, I am only showing just one set of conditions that are programmed in by the factory. For every set of input parameters there is a corresponding fuel delivery. When you cut the pink wire to access a “RACE MAP” all that is doing is changing the values in the table to lean out or reduce the amount of time the injector stays open for more power over the rpm curve. BUDDS at the dealer has limited capability to adjust this too based on altitude, when the AAPTS is reading higher barometric pressure and temperatures. The fuel numbers shown in the table are in ROM editor not milliseconds, the injectors durations are not liner and vary based on water temp and air temp (humidity). The ECU is measured by it’s ability to accurately supply fuel and spark timing, or, the speed at which the ECU can measure parameters and adjust fuel. Also how fast it can open and close injectors and fire spark plugs measured in +/- 2-3 milliseconds.

Regardless if a piggy back is installed or not these ECU operations are always in effect at all times, except fuel which as we said is interrupted by the piggy back signal, it’s table and in some cases inputs such as an O2 sensor determine it’s output signal.

More coming on programming the tables or ECU and piggy backs..... As you can see piggy backs have limited capibilites since they are missing the input parameters going to the ECU.

Comments, questions feel free to post I'm still learning too....stuff ain't easy to figure out and simplify but I think I'm at least getting close. Interesting! :D

TNT

01-11-2010, 07:58 PM

Since there were no comments or questions let’s continue,

As I stated above the ECU fuel delivery tables are stock, they can be intercepted by a piggy back that changes the pulse or duration of spray. The fuel delivery MAP in the piggy back makes adjustments to stock output values or tunes them by its MAP program, on the dyno by load and an O2 sensor. This tuning in essence changes the fuel-air indirectly, what I mean by that is the MAP created on the dyno is set, or airflow/coolant temp/RPM's/etc to the ECU are not being directly paired with fuel which is a pitfall of piggy backs.

Programmable ECU’s on the other hand allow for greater capability. On the DS450 BRP holds the software and I believe the race teams will need to go through them to reprogram the ECU, last I heard anyway, and hopefully we are not far from that. One day this capability will hopefully be passed down to the armature so they can tune their ECU’s to their engines, have the capability to remove rev limits and limp modes. This capability of programming the ECU directly allows for fine tuning fuel delivery to direct engine parameters. You basically add and subtract fuel as the table shows below using the fuel-air ratio as a guide(lean out or richen). You don’t use or modify the output of stock values anymore eliminating piggy backs all together.

That concludes my finding’s on the EFI systems hope others benefitted from it.

Terry

Our DS-495 big bore has been performing superbly at AX races lately, I think we FINALLY got the bugs worked out knock on wood. :D

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/TABLE2pic.jpg

We're still ordering 450 parts and will see what happens when we loose 45cc's, try some different porting, timing, overlaps, and things.

grantmi

01-13-2010, 09:32 PM

TNT,

I just caught that you were running E85 in your quad, care to elaborate on why? I fully understand the higher octane enabling more compression and the potential for a cooler operating motor, but are you seeing these benefits at 13:1?

I am no motor builder, just curious.....

I am a full supporter of E85 (grew up on a farm), but at the end of the day E85 has a lower energy content than gas (~84k BTU/gal vs. ~120k BTU/gal on pump gas)

Just curious, if it would ever be worthwhile for you to retune your big bore to run on race gas as a comparison?

Thanks,
Grant

TNT

01-13-2010, 09:45 PM

Grant,

I dunno my motor builder a guy that owns a brand new eddy current dyno and rebuilds motors, bikes and quads for a living all day about 15+ hours a day 7 days week, I'm serious probably 5+ motors per day plus dynos/week says he dynoed several bikes and quads on E-85 and race fuel and can get more power out of the E-85 because it's slower burning and detonates less he can advance the timing and change the intake/exhaust over-lap(depends on the motor some like a retard on exhaust, some intake, and visa-versa.

I'm no motor builder either nor petro-chem engineer nor do I got that kinda time to put into motors so I'm taking this guy's word for it. My son has noticed NO difference between expensive race fuel and E-85 on our quad....we have had both our DS495 and YAM450 tuned on both race and E-85 w/HC pistons in both 13.5.

I guess all one can do is try it.

Terry

grantmi

01-14-2010, 12:59 PM

Fair enough.....just stood out.

john willhoite

01-17-2010, 12:32 PM

what happened to your quad last night?

TNT

01-17-2010, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by john willhoite
what happened to your quad last night?

Trever my boy noticed the clutch going out Friday night, we talked on the phone about changing it but we have no experience changing this clutch did not want to risk needing some part we may not have if something goes wrong. It had lever play still, it has lasted a long time so we figured we make it through both moto's sat night. We had all new clutch's in the rig. He made it through M1, but M2 MAIN it failed he said he finally got in front the guy he was racing or battling with was some good competition. Thats good I am glad he had a few in the pro class to race. Last weekend in Claremoore there were no pro's, I guess it's the economy. We'll be in Tulsa CCP Kicker in two weeks. I'm flying to this one need a vacation. :D

Now we know the life of the stock clutch better and will change it earlier, we are still learning this quad getting it ready for next season. It's really running good now this was our fault we should changed it and I was thinking that it's been a long life before we left.

Did you go? Race, how did it go for U? Or were you the one racing a HON up front w/Trever? I heard the stadium was packed. Did that Monster truck do a back flip? :eek2:

Guess everyone had a good time good wish I was there.

TNT

01-17-2010, 01:35 PM

“TNT in other words the stock ecu with the pink wire acts the same as a pc5, except it does not have the ability to adjust the map. It however does calibrate for external climate/fuel changes.”

I want to talk to this I pulled from another thread, there still seems to be some confusion,

The stock ECU map is based on input parameters such as Coolant Temp, Ambient Air Temp and Pressure, MAP or air flow rate, Throttle position, Idle Air, sensors of sorts. There’s a fuel delivery pulse based on tables that are derived from all those sensors values I illustrate above. The ECU MAP is a program in essence that leans out or richens the quad for more power, its delivery is still based on ECU tables that are derived from these sensors.

The PC3 has NO direct input from sensors; rather it has tuning capabilities based on throttle position and engine load (totally different animal than the ECU), 02 sensor and dyno. You can also download MAPs to it ECU cannot. It intercepts the pulse output of the ECU fuel and changes it totally independent of the ECU, it never see’s the ECU or its sensors.

PC 5 has more tuning capabilities and tables and three different “tuning points” if you will, including Fuel, AFR and trim or auto tune table.

What does all this mean? Better throttling more precision MAPs w/PC3-5 due to more tables and capabilities to pair the motor load to the fuel delivery, some hp since I think max power is achieved around 13. 5 – 14:1 AFR.

So while PC 3/5 are working based on a dyno tuned MAP the sensors to the ECU are still working too but independantly, remember they were used indirectly to program the new MAP into the PC3/5 and when we made mods to the motor the sensors read the new values and delivered them to the ECU as we tune on the dyno. If a sensor failed the PC3/5 MAP will be less or ineffective and the quad will still run in some cases but maybe bad. If you changed a mod the quad may still run but not as good depending on the mod, the PC5 has an autotuner on it that is better than the stock ECU since the stock ECU does not see oxy out the exhaust 02 meaning PC 5 has added potential to keep the quad at 13.5-14.5:1 for optimum throttle performance and power.

Stock RACE MAP not as efficent at throttle response and maintaining max power AFR works completely different relative to sensors and independant of PC3/5.

Hope that helps. :D

xrxmxcx

01-17-2010, 02:59 PM

Performance wise I can see the reason, I just hope your DS doesn't end up like the rest of the BRP products we have been working with, replacing fuel lines, injectors, and fuel pumps due to high alcohol content and fuel degregation.

Originally posted by TNT
Grant,

I dunno my motor builder a guy that owns a brand new eddy current dyno and rebuilds motors, bikes and quads for a living all day about 15+ hours a day 7 days week, I'm serious probably 5+ motors per day plus dynos/week says he dynoed several bikes and quads on E-85 and race fuel and can get more power out of the E-85 because it's slower burning and detonates less he can advance the timing and change the intake/exhaust over-lap(depends on the motor some like a retard on exhaust, some intake, and visa-versa.

I'm no motor builder either nor petro-chem engineer nor do I got that kinda time to put into motors so I'm taking this guy's word for it. My son has noticed NO difference between expensive race fuel and E-85 on our quad....we have had both our DS495 and YAM450 tuned on both race and E-85 w/HC pistons in both 13.5.

I guess all one can do is try it.

Terry

TNT

01-17-2010, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by xrxmxcx
Performance wise I can see the reason, I just hope your DS doesn't end up like the rest of the BRP products we have been working with, replacing fuel lines, injectors, and fuel pumps due to high alcohol content and fuel degregation.

Bike customers my engine builder has been tunning and running E-85 all last season no probs w/fuel line, pump hmmm mainly cres steel pressurrized pumps, injector? does not break down from alc-fuel. Bare Mag and Al will. Seals might over time but we replace them often enough in racing. Bikes running great on it and my gas cost is waaaay down.

john willhoite

01-17-2010, 04:55 PM

I was just a spectator.
I couldn't get our quads ready.

We plan to be a the tulsa one.

My kids are a bit younger 12 and 8.

We wer rooting for you guys though.

ZX11

01-18-2010, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by TNT
can get more power out of the E-85 because it's slower burning and detonates less he can advance the timing and change the intake/exhaust over-lap(depends on the motor some like a retard on exhaust, some intake, and visa-versa.

I am not understanding this. E-85 does not have as much specific energy in it as gasoline. E-85 can make as much power as gasoline only if you are talking about using the E-85 in a high compression engine and the the gasoline in a low compression engine In other words it is only equal to gasoline when the playing field is unequal. Race fuel will make more power for a given flow of air and the same compression ratio. E-85 is 95 octane and race fuel is 100 octane unleaded and 110 leaded (I think race fuel is still like this). Your E-85 results do not match what info on E-85 says should happen given a equal setup with the race gas. Did you never set up the ATV properly for race gas? But proof is in the dyno, I guess.

Valve timing (overlap) affects how much fuel/air charge you can move at high RPM's. Ideal valve timing does not care what fuel is being run.

He doesn't get an advantage due to the ability to advance the ignition timing due to the E-85's slow burn. He "has to" advance the ignition timing due to the E-85's slow burn. The whole point in advancing the ignition timing is to ensure the max cylinder pressure is achieved at the right place in the piston stroke. I think the right place is 8 degrees past top dead center. Slow burning fuels have to start their burn process earlier to ensure that max combustion pressure is maximum when the piston is at that 8 degree point.

The CDI takes care of timing needs due to changes in rpm but not due to fuel octane/quality changes. High rpm requires advanced timing due to the piston getting to that point so much faster that the fuel burn must be started earlier.

TNT

01-18-2010, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by ZX11
I am not understanding this. E-85 does not have as much specific energy in it as gasoline. E-85 can make as much power as gasoline only if you are talking about using the E-85 in a high compression engine and the the gasoline in a low compression engine In other words it is only equal to gasoline when the playing field is unequal. Race fuel will make more power for a given flow of air and the same compression ratio. E-85 is 95 octane and race fuel is 100 octane unleaded and 110 leaded (I think race fuel is still like this). Your E-85 results do not match what info on E-85 says should happen given a equal setup with the race gas. Did you never set up the ATV properly for race gas? But proof is in the dyno, I guess.

Valve timing (overlap) affects how much fuel/air charge you can move at high RPM's. Ideal valve timing does not care what fuel is being run.

He doesn't get an advantage due to the ability to advance the ignition timing due to the E-85's slow burn. He "has to" advance the ignition timing due to the E-85's slow burn. The whole point in advancing the ignition timing is to ensure the max cylinder pressure is achieved at the right place in the piston stroke. I think the right place is 8 degrees past top dead center. Slow burning fuels have to start their burn process earlier to ensure that max combustion pressure is maximum when the piston is at that 8 degree point.

The CDI takes care of timing needs due to changes in rpm but not due to fuel octane/quality changes. High rpm requires advanced timing due to the piston getting to that point so much faster that the fuel burn must be started earlier.

We’re ARE using E-85 in a high compression engine, 495 cc; think we got a CP 13.6. Yes we ran VP 110 on a dyno tuned DS495 and YFZ450 then switched to E-85 about 2 months ago, both noticing no power loss on the dyno or track(Trever is still placing the same in races), only thing that got reduced was my gas expense. I may have regurgitated what he said wrong, I am no engine/dyno tuner, but he said he changes the timing to get power since E-85 is slower burning and detonates less.....Again don’t quote me on that, something like that. Like when we were running race gas MW’s taught him a way to change the timing and overlap to gain more power and we did, don't quote me on that either...lol! Now we're going to get adjustable cams for dyno tuning. I guess we can read all this theory as I do allot, but can’t argue with results. I’d imagine like alot of things when it comes to engines there are so many variables and tuning points who know what one can do that defy so called “theory”. I am shocked in my 30+ yr career how this is often the case. I mean look at the variances we hear on dyno results on this quad with the same mods.

Since there is no return line to the ECU I would not see how it can change timing based on fuel quality, with an 02 oxy level indirectly, maybe, but I would think the ECU is programmed to put out ignition based on input sensors, some piggy backs timing is programmable, someday ECU’s.

Like I said proof is in the pudding, want to know if E-85 or aviation fuel(100 leaded) is another that I have seen some use with no power loss that cost less, try it!

Good post ZX11 enjoyed reading it made me think a bit.

The electric properties of E-85 have me a little concerned with a electric fuel pump in our tank, maybe premature seal wear, shouldn't see much bare aluminum or magnesium think we’ll be all right no probs yet running it super hard 8 regional pro races now.

TNT

01-21-2010, 05:16 PM

FYI: We broke a 09 stock clutch basket WITH the 2009-9 update, digging the chips out of the motor now.... Appears the update DID NOT fix the problem. :mad:

Now we know updating to a better after market basket.

xrxmxcx

01-21-2010, 05:39 PM

I thought you were running a 2009-9 cover and a different basket? These DS's have been known to tear through stock baskets even with the update cover. They're alright up until you start adding a piston/cams/etc. ANYTHING more then stock HP is hit or miss with these. We are sponsored by Hinson, and even they have tested the stock basket and found that the problem lie's in the OEM basket having a stepped last plate, and a lot of extra force is being put on it, along with the weakness in the basket because of the double-notching. Straight from them, anyone that is looking to upgrade, your best bet and bang for your buck is ordering the updated clutch cover, removing your stock basket, and installing the Hinson, EVEN if you leave the 8 plate setup and dont add the 9th.

Either way the setup is a great improvement over the stock cast aluminum basket, if you need any help give them a call and ask for Nick!

TNT

01-21-2010, 06:26 PM

Well no I had confidence BRP finally got it right but did not but I wanted proof myself and here it is, yes I thought about the hinson long ago but wanted to see what stock did. The BRP basket even with the update is NO GOOD! So now people get the update, some spending money to in parts and labor, and still may break a basket due to the reasons you stated.

"Hit and miss" as defined by some torque value or motor mods? How about stock motors, will a pipe, pink cut, lid off need a new basket? Where is the line drawn? Who knows? Knowing what I know and have seen the past year on this site on certain things like the clutch and frame THERE IS NO CLEAR SOLUTION AND NOTHING BUT A RISK.

So I say to all owners, stock, any level, wanna a decent clutch don't run a stock basket. Who knows to what level of guarantee the 2009-9 updated clutch cover, hub, and added friction plate provides even the stock quad, your on your own your guess is as good as mine.

The stock basket broke a friction plate we think then it broke a basket tab that ended up in our motor and torn to shreads!

Anyway no biggy we are flushing the shaving's out looking at better baskets. Just bites need more money for the clutch basket, add that to the list of "must haves" to make this quad reliable.

Racers Dad 37

01-21-2010, 07:12 PM

TNT when your son is in this deep have him replace the shift drum and pawls they have been updated part numbers
420257803 Drum Shift
420257821 Pawl 2 need
420239251 Spring 2 need

TNT

01-21-2010, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by Racers Dad 37
TNT when your son is in this deep have him replace the shift drum and pawls they have been updated part numbers
420257803 Drum Shift
420257821 Pawl 2 need
420239251 Spring 2 need

09's need that we searched all the updates when we purchased the quad and this didn't come up...thanks will check.

LTMFB

01-21-2010, 08:04 PM

I must say....with all this talk about broken frames and clutch baskets I can't help but feel a little hesitant to buy one of these. Am I over reacting?

Do you guys just run your quads THAT hard? Should this be a cause for concern?

I don't want to have to replace a frame 6 months after purchase or a clutch basket after 6 months or so.....I don't race every race and while I ride hard, it's not MX hard......

Please enlighten me..........and make me feel better about my purchase!!!!:)

xrxmxcx

01-21-2010, 08:18 PM

out of all the units sold, most that show up on this site are full race and pushed to their limits. with proper maintenence and everyday use the life of these atv's is the same as every other

honda's burn clutches and yamaha's break too, but not everyone posts about it.

most info in this section is straightforward, and if you have a good dealer then thats half the battle!

clutch-2009-9 do the update wether its covered or not..

frames, most do not fail unless of extreme crash, just like every honda kaw or yam

worst case, you can order the frame parts and have it repaired!

Originally posted by LTMFB
I must say....with all this talk about broken frames and clutch baskets I can't help but feel a little hesitant to buy one of these. Am I over reacting?

Do you guys just run your quads THAT hard? Should this be a cause for concern?

I don't want to have to replace a frame 6 months after purchase or a clutch basket after 6 months or so.....I don't race every race and while I ride hard, it's not MX hard......

Please enlighten me..........and make me feel better about my purchase!!!!:)

xrxmxcx

01-21-2010, 08:20 PM

Originally posted by TNT
09's need that we searched all the updates when we purchased the quad and this didn't come up...thanks will check.

it is not published info for the public, these are part #'s for the changed shift pawls and drum

help prevent the "false" nuetral under hard riding, much better from our understanding and few bikes that have been done here...

TNT

01-21-2010, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by LTMFB
I must say....with all this talk about broken frames and clutch baskets I can't help but feel a little hesitant to buy one of these. Am I over reacting?

Do you guys just run your quads THAT hard? Should this be a cause for concern?

I don't want to have to replace a frame 6 months after purchase or a clutch basket after 6 months or so.....I don't race every race and while I ride hard, it's not MX hard......

Please enlighten me..........and make me feel better about my purchase!!!!:)

I don't know what to say anymore...I purchased a "race Ready" quad built to modify like the rest, quite honestly disappointed in the axle, clutch, now worried about the frame in about 25 hours. Seen these failures out of others from normal riding, several, and I think we have enough people out here to say we have a good "lot sample", we had one guy fry an 09 clutch in 5 hours locally normal racing.

I will get the clutch basket probably set me back another $250, axle cant remember over $800, frame I am thinking I will take the forward and rear transfer plates off look at the thickness and make some thicker al or steel ones. My theory is that will keep the load even on each side AND keep concentrated load away from any detail component.

If you look at the shop manual page 314,

CAUTION: DO NOT OMIT THIS PLATE. THE STRUCTURAL SOLIDITY OF THE FRAME WOULD BE GREATLY AFFECTED.

"GREATLY AFFECTED" I seen this the other day and it hit home since six months when I drew the diagram below and posted it for people that were breaking frames explaining why. This joint has an impact on other areas of the frame and bearing wear, if it is weak both can be compromised. I thought the race team was having success with these renforcement plates but misunderstood, I thought the BCS/BRP, plates were thicker than the 2009's stock quad. Not the case, now we seen a 2009 under normal riding conditions fail which makes one believe the 2009 design is no good nor kits, BUT as I stated it makes no sense since BCS and MW's have been running it hard.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/Slide2-3.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/Slide1-6.jpg

I'm building my own made of steel it won't add much weight, 4130 same gage or more uf I can as the 09ers made of aluminum, hope for the best.

At this point otherwise working close w/BCS to make a reliable 450.....Jason and Trever getting along great BCS is ALOT of help......Thanks!

xrxmxcx

01-21-2010, 09:13 PM

TNT i hate to say it but your over thinking the frame, as honest as people can say they are, that frame did not fail under normal riding conditions. we knw that quite well, and have seen what it takes for that to happen and it is quite extreme , and if it is during riding (which we have done also) its about 100ft length/40ft verticle drop landing "crossed up" in an isolated case..

TNT

01-21-2010, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by xrxmxcx
TNT i hate to say it but your over thinking the frame, as honest as people can say they are, that frame did not fail under normal riding conditions. we knw that quite well, and have seen what it takes for that to happen and it is quite extreme , and if it is during riding (which we have done also) its about 100ft length/40ft verticle drop landing "crossed up" in an isolated case..

Really so what kit are you running, did you ever go Walsh?

xrxmxcx

01-21-2010, 09:26 PM

Didn't end up going that route, we are using the Stage1/BCS kit. We did add an extra plate to our mounting setup, I will take pictures tomorrow when Im at our shop. One of the biggest things we changed, that you are running as well, is going to Pro-Armor nerf bars. Like you said alot of the load is bieng transfered through the a-arm plates when you come in contact, so that arm plates do help in that instance. The main thing you want to protect on the frame besides that is the lower frame cradle. If you look at how the Pro-Armor mounts you will understand. It greatly increases support across the pivot point that is created at the front part of the cradle when it takes a large force from the side. Piece by piece you can use correct products that are simple yet effective. Although we haven't come up with something to help with the front loop system around the radiator, we have been looking around and will keep you posted.

TNT

01-21-2010, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by xrxmxcx
Didn't end up going that route, we are using the Stage1/BCS kit. We did add an extra plate to our mounting setup, I will take pictures tomorrow when Im at our shop. One of the biggest things we changed, that you are running as well, is going to Pro-Armor nerf bars. Like you said alot of the load is bieng transfered through the a-arm plates when you come in contact, so that arm plates do help in that instance. The main thing you want to protect on the frame besides that is the lower frame cradle. If you look at how the Pro-Armor mounts you will understand. It greatly increases support across the pivot point that is created at the front part of the cradle when it takes a large force from the side. Piece by piece you can use correct products that are simple yet effective. Although we haven't come up with something to help with the front loop system around the radiator, we have been looking around and will keep you posted.

I got tomorrow off, I'm going to call Jason. I see in your title you got an 08 and I'm confused we never did this stage 1 kit but our 09 as I understand has the same plates as the stage 1 BCS/BRP. I wish I had a quad here I'm in SC boy/quad in KS, sounds like Jason will know what your talking about with this xtra plate sounds like the way to go and yes you make sense with the nurfs, I never thought of that all I know is they were a beefy tight install I helped get them on before I left for SC.

Thanks for the help, just sent the boy the shift drum part #'s see if we got them. I fly to Tulsa next weekend to a race and will look at all this.

TNT

01-22-2010, 06:13 AM

Originally posted by xrxmxcx
TNT i hate to say it but your over thinking the frame

Your right I don't have a quad here to help me figure things out so I do my best to help out by thinking too much at times but I'm good at it, why they pay me the big bucks.

Sometimes I do my best thinking when I don't think.....lol!

Woke up this AM and figured out the Racers Dad 37 is your DADDY! LOL! AND you all have something to do with BRP.

You might wonder how I figured that out with just a computer? lol!

Well you own two 08's he said he did once too hmmmm? Go detective TNT thinking.....:confused:

Then he said he knew your MOMMMY!!! Hmmmm more evidence...

Then I notice he is protective of you. BINGO! A dad knows a dad, call a spaid a spaid.

:D

You understand this frame thing better than he does why don't you get with 4play or BCS and get them to make a upper or lower billet part.

TNT

01-22-2010, 08:04 AM

Just found out I was right RD is XRX's dad and they are sponsored by BRP.

xrxmxcx

01-22-2010, 08:35 AM

took you that long to figure that out? :p

ratsracung6

01-22-2010, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by xrxmxcx
TNT i hate to say it but your over thinking the frame, as honest as people can say they are, that frame did not fail under normal riding conditions. we knw that quite well, and have seen what it takes for that to happen and it is quite extreme , and if it is during riding (which we have done also) its about 100ft length/40ft verticle drop landing "crossed up" in an isolated case..

No it did not happen under norm riding. But it did happen under norm racing conditions. The frame has broke 3 different times in the same 2 spots thats not a isolated case. The left side twice right side once.

xrxmxcx

01-22-2010, 09:18 AM

I'd like to hear what the conditions were, because 99% of the failures we see are due to excess loads coming at angles the frame doesn't see under normal racing conditions. Yes they happened during racing/riding, but in crash/etc..

..?

ratsracung6

01-22-2010, 09:39 AM

My son races the A class with TQRA so there are plenty 70 ft plus jumps. You are not going to able to land perfect everytime I dont care what level rider you are. None of these breaks were caused from a wreck. I can see why the area where the a-arm is broke to much sideways stress at that point. the other part where the shock mount is there is no support when the shock bottoms out it pushes the top of the mount up and in which causes the bottom of the mount to push out, and its got to give somewhere.

xrxmxcx

01-22-2010, 09:58 AM

Thanks for the information. We were down working on our bikes last night, and after seeing your pictures think that your modification should work really good. You are, or must know a fairly talented fab guy, and it would be good to see what you come up with down the road. Let us know how that works out for you!

Goes to show that there is something that the cross member in between those two front spars isn't curing the problem of holding out on bottom out...

Racers Dad 37

01-22-2010, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by TNT
Just found out I was right RD is XRX's dad and they are sponsored by BRP.

SO YOUR POINT IS ?

So I guess that show just how bright you are
location of both Southwick MA
All of XRX race photo show his # 37

AND BEING HIS DAD PRICELESS!!!!!

TNT

01-22-2010, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by ratsracung6
My son races the A class with TQRA so there are plenty 70 ft plus jumps. You are not going to able to land perfect everytime I dont care what level rider you are. None of these breaks were caused from a wreck. I can see why the area where the a-arm is broke to much sideways stress at that point. the other part where the shock mount is there is no support when the shock bottoms out it pushes the top of the mount up and in which causes the bottom of the mount to push out, and its got to give somewhere.

DO me a BIG favor BCS and I were looking at your pics and in your original post you said you broke the shock mount. Can you go to Power Point and draw a circle around the areas that failed. We all know the one piece you are pointing to is a prob, it's a bad design, as I said it has a hole in the radius of the a stretch die bend, that part we HAVE to work with but it would good if we can get someone to redo it. I will look at it when I get in front of a quad.

The other thing I think will help is a billet fitting like 4plays at the bottom and top transfer (centers of frame) where the upper and lower arms are. These billet fitting's as I told BCS will keep most of the side bending loads as XRX stated IN THE ARMs where they belong.

I don't got a quad to reference your pics to see the other area, all I see is a bunch of grinded metal. We think we see you welded a shock tab on?

If you don't get the load distribution right on you're quad yours being somewhat unique in tolerance build up, and if you don't use the right fasteners in the right hole you will see this failure again. You might check your frame for square too.

Are you guy's going to Tulsa? I'll be there. I remember you and your son at Village creek we talked about this on the starting line, right thats you?

XRX I was wondering why he always beat me up when we disagreed....lol! HE spends more time out here trying to proove me wrong rather than offering solutions and I cant read his typing....if it's over two sentences. Now I know, hey I understand dads remember I been one for 20 year got experience and grey hair to proove it! :D

Can you ask him what a "PRICENESS" is? lol! Did he call me a baaaaad name? Priceness, hmmmm? Got NO clue!!!

"AND BEING HIS DAD PRICENESS!!!!!"

LOL!!!!!!!!

Sorry RD I typical don't care who's who out here, too busy trying to offer good tech advice. :D

RD you need to CHILLl I LIKE your son he's a good kid and SMART too. :D I don't always agree with him but he has some good info too.

ratsracung6

01-22-2010, 11:31 AM

Yea Terry that was me at village creek. No tulsa for us maybe N40 if we get it all back together. We broke the water fitting off the head when putting the motor back in, got fix it first.

If you look at my pics the last 2 are where the frame broke by the shock mount. At the bottom bolt hole, the shock mount itself did not break.

ratsracung6

01-22-2010, 11:44 AM

Thanks XRX I allways knew my brother in law was good for something, we came up with the ideal together. Now to see if it will hold up.

Scott

TNT

01-22-2010, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by ratsracung6
Yea Terry that was me at village creek. No tulsa for us maybe N40 if we get it all back together. We broke the water fitting off the head when putting the motor back in, got fix it first.

If you look at my pics the last 2 are where the frame broke by the shock mount. At the bottom bolt hole, the shock mount itself did not break.

Ok got it so you failed in the same bolt you did at Village but both sides are failing so you welded some gussets on both sides to take out the side bending?

florentino

01-22-2010, 12:12 PM

xrxmxcx

01-22-2010, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by florentino
frame is junk as it can break after only a year of riding.
i have a 250 trx 1986 frames is perfect , i have had over 14 quads of all kind 650 ds hondas 450s 400s atcs and the 450 ds has been the worse atv ever. why ?? its runs good, its so hard to work on, aftermarket cost 2 times more if they have the parts. mecanics have no clue, how to work on it, its also a pain to have limp mode, i dont ride mine any more. when i had my honda trx 450 all i had to worry about was just to motor, thats it.
also japan as a way of making things easy and good, can am did a good job trying to step up, but nothing is easy on this atv.
tnt said he has 14k on his i bet is alot more than that. also you must have 2 or 3 can ams for racing as there is no way you can race just one, as theres alwals some thing to fix,
not bashing on any one just my 2 cents.

Optimistic attitude you have, just part out the rest of your bike, and go buy another Honda if you want it so bad. This community it all about figuring out how to make things work, and prevention and all you just did was come in and vent about how things fail, not how to avoid failure!

I need a set of front spindles/hubs, and some rear hubs, you got any?

:rolleyes:

TNT

01-22-2010, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by florentino
frame is junk as it can break after only a year of riding.
i have a 250 trx 1986 frames is perfect , i have had over 14 quads of all kind 650 ds hondas 450s 400s atcs and the 450 ds has been the worse atv ever. why ?? its runs good, its so hard to work on, aftermarket cost 2 times more if they have the parts. mecanics have no clue, how to work on it, its also a pain to have limp mode, i dont ride mine any more. when i had my honda trx 450 all i had to worry about was just to motor, thats it.
also japan as a way of making things easy and good, can am did a good job trying to step up, but nothing is easy on this atv.
tnt said he has 14k on his i bet is alot more than that. also you must have 2 or 3 can ams for racing as there is no way you can race just one, as theres alwals some thing to fix,
not bashing on any one just my 2 cents.

Yep, agree, not going well so far more and more money, doubt I run it more than this season or put anymore money in it I have to. 4play said he stopped dealing with the frame long ago when wroking w/Natalie has no parts or Can in his shop since.

Next up RD and XRX to defend it after all thier sponsored. :rolleyes:

florentino

01-22-2010, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by xrxmxcx
Optimistic attitude you have, just part out the rest of your bike, and go buy another Honda if you want it so bad. This community it all about figuring out how to make things work, and prevention and all you just did was come in and vent about how things fail, not how to avoid failure!

I need a set of front spindles/hubs, and some rear hubs, you got any?

:rolleyes:
at the same time there is people out there. that will like someone to say things the way they are.
i cant part out my quad cause its not even paid for.
and yes i show you pics of my frame just facts too, i ride and know how to work on atvs, but heres the funny thing about a year ago i posted that the frame was out of square some thing was not good, to later find out my frame was bad..
also when you replace parts of the frame they will break over and over again too late. cause it cause stress some where else.
and i dont have to be super smart to find out was good and bad .. one more thing the frames you sell are they made from a bunch of spares?? and do you have and frames for sale?

Blizzard24

01-22-2010, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by TNT
Yep, agree, not going well so far more and more money, doubt I run it more than this season or put anymore money in it I have to. 4play said he stopped dealing with the frame long ago when wroking w/Natalie has no parts or Can in his shop since.

Next up RD and XRX to defend it after all thier sponsored. :rolleyes:

Terry, you have been helpful w the DS but you bought the DS and bashed the YFZ as being junk, now you are saying the DS will be done after you dumped a ton of money into it because it is junk. You have stated in many posts that all atv's have work required to make them race ready/ reliable but you are running out of options.

A couple of us said go with the Hinson/Motoworks baskets, you said dont, they arent compatable with the other metals and will create more problems. You said dont do anything w the CG of the quad but then you add a heavier axle because the stock one didnt hold up. About a year ago, I said real world trumps computer models and theories with atv's, you said you would rely on the engineers to make the right choices. Remember that conversation? You taughted the DS as the best engineered quad out there and now bash Can Am for their decisions. I have learned some things from you but you needed to listen to some of us a long time ago and you wouldnt be having some of these issues and feelings now

for anyone that is hitting a track with an atv, it is going to break. we are taking 400lbs machines, throwing them into the air with high hp motors and want the lightest platform to do it on. we can not have our cake and eat it too. You want light, its going to cost durability, you want durability... it is going to cost you weight and performance. You want fast, it is going to cost reliability, you want reliability... it is going to cost you power.

I raced this past week and had it shut off on me while I was in the top three of the class, it sucks, and I will find out what happened and make it work better... why? These quads are badass, handle amazing and are a challenge to make better.

If you dont want that, go ride a TRX or YFZ and have fun, but dont ***** about what you have. Part of the solution or part of the problem, you decide.

outtagas

01-22-2010, 07:19 PM

Hey floentino go back a year and read what you wrote in the would you buy another one topic - jan 10 2009 - top of page 5.
I was the one with the out of square frame not you, you said you crashed!
I do agree - you can complain and vent, but it is best to move on if its really getting to ya!
My last straw was carlos at brp telling me to adjust my riding to my out of square brand new quad.

:mad:

TNT

01-23-2010, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by Blizzard24
Terry, you have been helpful w the DS but you bought the DS and bashed the YFZ as being junk, now you are saying the DS will be done after you dumped a ton of money into it because it is junk. You have stated in many posts that all atv's have work required to make them race ready/ reliable but you are running out of options.

A couple of us said go with the Hinson/Motoworks baskets, you said dont, they arent compatable with the other metals and will create more problems. You said dont do anything w the CG of the quad but then you add a heavier axle because the stock one didnt hold up. About a year ago, I said real world trumps computer models and theories with atv's, you said you would rely on the engineers to make the right choices. Remember that conversation? You taughted the DS as the best engineered quad out there and now bash Can Am for their decisions. I have learned some things from you but you needed to listen to some of us a long time ago and you wouldnt be having some of these issues and feelings now

for anyone that is hitting a track with an atv, it is going to break. we are taking 400lbs machines, throwing them into the air with high hp motors and want the lightest platform to do it on. we can not have our cake and eat it too. You want light, its going to cost durability, you want durability... it is going to cost you weight and performance. You want fast, it is going to cost reliability, you want reliability... it is going to cost you power.

I raced this past week and had it shut off on me while I was in the top three of the class, it sucks, and I will find out what happened and make it work better... why? These quads are badass, handle amazing and are a challenge to make better.

If you dont want that, go ride a TRX or YFZ and have fun, but dont ***** about what you have. Part of the solution or part of the problem, you decide.

Just get a little tired of people that come out here that are sponsored or whatever sugar coating this quad making their points to look good to sponsors that ignore the problems, especially the ones that every time someone puts a frame problem up they call them liars in essence and say they “crashed” or “did something” to make this happen not under “normal” riding conditions, not true! Florintino, Ratsracung, Outagas, the pics I posted of broken frames, and other PM’s I have seen, sorry I don’t call that bashing, I call it “REALITY”....you all can sugar coat this frame all you want but as I have stated that fastener, the stretch formed extrusion with a hole in the radius is wrong period not right for even recreational riding, “NASTRAN” CAD did that? NO WAY! ...that has NOTHING to do with owners trading performance for reliability, power for weight, etc....that’s just a basic design flaw! The BRP kits and 09 frames still have issues.

NOW the clutch, that’s my fault for not listening to a few with 08’s putting a Hinson basket in rather having faith in BRP’s 2009-9 update huh? BRP tells people with 08’s, some 09’s, to go get the update 09s are fine per bulletin Engine #, some having to spend money out of their own pockets just to find out IT’S STILL BROKE, THERES NOTHING RACE READY ABOUT THE 2009-9 BASKET, it has a BAD basket design the bulletin DID NOT address, so now you not only need a costly 2009-9 clutch update but they forgot to tell everyone you need a basket. You can assume if you cut the pink wire, put a pipe on, as designed stock for racing you need a $200 - 250 basket, put THAT in your 2009-9 service bulletin BRP. Yes I had faith in the BRP Engineers, so what’s your point I was wrong! How does that make BRP right? Sorry Chris, you can turn this around and make it the owners fault again, and justify racing as the cause, this and that all day but this is BRP, this quad IS NOT RACE READY!!! Owners own up when justified BRP same. I don’t bash, give credit when do, don’t sugar coat a bad situation either, listen to peoples problems don’t deny them.

Now we are seeing frame members fail and some so call Structural Engineers out here that have ALL the answers and ideas on how to fix it, but can’t even fix their own quad. BRP should own up and release a recall develop kits THAT WORK THIS TIME take ownership of their bad design, in Outgases case frame totally out of square bluntly obvious BRP’s fault!!! They did NOTHING about. STOP SELLING THAT FRAME MEMBER KNOWING IT FAILS!

AXLE – BRP parts in general extremely EXPENSIVE, over priced for what? Stock is unreliable. Some that if you replace stock like frame members as in Ratsraung6 case, the axle and clutch in mine WILL ONLY FAIL AGAIN, so we are driven into situations that are not ideal, with costly clutch assemblies and frame mods of different sorts and materials, axles, that are heavier, etc, that may cause other problems or compromise the best features of the quad, or reliability......tell me who wants to continuously spend money on stock parts THAT DON’T WORK???

Sorry I am not going to be part of solution when BRP should be, I/we WILL however state the problems so they are known and hopefully improved upon, not sugar coat them, that to me is in reality being part of the solution not problem anything less hiding the truth!

Want some justification - Yep they all got their problems, but don’t think for a sec the Can-am does not have it's share! And for a MSRP of over $9K I’d expect more, if not drop the price and don't call it "Race Ready". I want out of the quad, boys likes the way it handles, we disagree, I said we DNF/S first 4 races of the year we sell it!

TNT

01-23-2010, 05:08 PM

Here is a weld design I drew up real fast, it could also be reinforced with sheet metal brackets bolted instead of welded. Now we just need a crafty hands on metal fab guy to try it...I pick up two bolts instead of one through the Z bracket and my holes have lots of tear out room to the edge, I also increase the gage of the extrusion by .020 or so which is still light.

This design needs a new aluminum 2024-T3 Z-bracket(you can buy extruded z sections cut to length, easy) and welded 6061-T6 Front Frame Assembly made of extruded rectangular bar stock you buy and cut to length then weld, left hand right hand opposite(should be able to flip over not mirror or need two different assemblies, just 1).

I only drew the left hand side, right hand side not shown stopped drawing down the center of the radiator. Also drawn side ways left is up. Don't ask why I did that I was looking at the pic that is sideways in the thread lol.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/Slide2-3.jpg

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/DSWELDDESIGN.jpg

This is really an easy fix I could come up with more designs so could BRP or BCS or maybe some of you all, but this is what we need to focus on not bandaiding the bad design, we need to rid of the bad BRP design. If mine failed this is what I'd do and would not buy a stock replacement. :D

xrxmxcx

01-23-2010, 05:43 PM

TNT I love your posts! So good!

First off...

Remember in the past when you were saying BRP and their design team spent all this time time load testing and designing everything, and they are the ones doing all the NASTRAN testing and truely know how to figure these things out?

Now...

"This is really an easy fix I could come up with more designs so could BRP or BCS or maybe some of you all, but this is what we need to focus on not bandaiding the bad design, we need to rid of the bad BRP design. If mine failed this is what I'd do and would not buy a stock replacement."

Make up your mind!

Next...

"Next up RD and XRX to defend it after all thier sponsored. "

That's a good one, maybe showing respect, and giving input to OUR sponsors has gotten us somewhere, and what WE get in return is worth it! I am by far no PRO racer, but the info we share and exchange with everyone that helps us out is still valuable! We have ties with BRP, and I know some people in the CO. Sorry for bieng on top of our social/people skills and networking! Strike me down for it!

Thanks!

...and my last FYI!

Axle - Must be junk, all the FACTORY teams are using it!

Frames - Must be junk, all the factory teams are using it!

Swingarms PC'd - How do you feel about PCing now?

Motors (2009-9 update) - Great service update for your average DS450 customer who trail rides and doesn't beat there machine! Add a basket and its a great improvement and hold fine with full race motors!

All your bad luck shouldn't be ground to start another b""ch fest!

I'm gonna let you come back with 329038420984 more reason's on why I'm an idiot. As much as you dig into me, my sponsors, and everyone else who doesn't completely agree with you, do it if you feel better.

...AND, JUST TO LET YOU KNOW,

I find most of your information valuable, and take time to read through most of your posts, but every time someone posts something you blow holes in it and try and find ways to get around what they are saying and prove your ideas are best!

TNT

01-23-2010, 06:23 PM

1. I don’t believe now BRP designed this frame with NASTRAN .....Now that I have pointed to some of the failures it’s obvious.
2. Don’t come out here and accuse people that have frame issues of wrecking.
3. Axle is junk, seen too many fail don’t care about pro’s that get new ones every race.
4. Clutch is not fixed period! Update did not work, I talked to some of the race teams that are seeing the update fail from novice racers. The ridge on the basket that casues failures could care less whos riding the quad.
5. Modulus of Elasticity and Creep Strengths begin to fail casted aluminum at 250F, loose half thier fatigue life at 400F. Still waiting to see pics of your DS swing powder coated? Or are you too busy out here to debating with me to take the pic like you said?

Now quit yapping out here and go build that frame assembly above, then when your done build BRP a clutch basket that won't fail.

O and tell your dad I said hello get a beer tonight stay off the puter and chill! You too! :cool:

xrxmxcx

01-23-2010, 06:46 PM

"1. I don’t believe not BRP designed this frame with NASTRAN .....Now that I have pointed to some of the failures it’s obvious."

My thoughts..

BRP>TNT

2. Don’t come out here and accuse people that have frame issues of wrecking.

My thoughts..

Didn't accuse, just asked..
Ratsracing = cool guy, great idea and put it at work to try it!
TNT = speculate, good designs, no failure/crash? no test?
Ratsracing = answered my questions and I value his info, even looked over our bikes/parts to look for stress marks
Florentino = admitted to crash/flip ATV like Outtagas stated, looked myself..
XR/RD'=been through two frames, posted pictures and stated/shown what happened, what to hide (NOTHING!) frames replaced and still using same setups, S""T happens!

3. Axle is junk, seen too many fail don’t care about pro’s that new ones every race.

How many have you seen fail? Every axle fails at a point? I'm sure whatever happened to your axle, there is chance that it can happen again even with an LSR solid +4 lb axle!

4. Clutch is not fixed period! Update did not work, I talked to some of the race reams that are seeing the update fail from novice racers.

Glad you looked into something beyond holding faith in the 2009-9. Adding a good clutch basket is something a racer of ANY level should look into! Not only HP is a factor in this, but outside forces apply as well! sudden load or impact can cause clutch problems and failure!

downshift/stall/popstarting/impact/etc!

side by side you can see a big difference in the clutch baskets and when we have them back out our shop ill post pictures for everyone to see

Billet basket VS cast

billet wins!

5. Modulus of Elasticity and Creep Strengths begin to fail casted aluminum at 250F, loose half thier fatigue life at 400F. Still waiting to see pics of your DS swing powder coated? Or are you too busy out here to debating with me to take the pic like you said?

I am sorry I work during the day and have a busy schedule, don't have much time between work/school/gym/riding when i get a chance! We'll be running them all season and will keep ya updated big boy!

Honestly, I don't worry much about your posts but take time to respond when i have a chance to kill some time and give you some food for thought.

I love dealing with "engineers"

"Now quit yapping out here and go build that frame assembly above, then when your done build BRP a clutch basket that won't fail. "

I am no god of design/fab, and admit it, never said I was! if your the ENGINEER, why don't you? that is afterall, what you do for a living isnt it?

Goodnight TNT, gotta get some work done then go to sleep! Have fun, and why don't you crack a beer and chill out! Seem to be "pent" up a bit..

xrxmxcx

01-23-2010, 06:48 PM

TNT

01-23-2010, 07:02 PM

Ok XRX DS is a PERFECT STOCK MACHINE now you and RD can sleep well tonight KNOWING!!!! :D:D

I enjoy your post too cracks me up!!!!!!

xrxmxcx

01-23-2010, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by TNT
Ok XRX DS is a PERFECT STOCK MACHINE now you and RD can sleep well tonight KNOWING!!!! :D:D

I enjoy your post too cracks me up!!!!!!

Glad you care buddy, have a good night sleep yourself!

Engineers = Speculate and think about how to fix it, break out the computer!

Mechanics = Fix it and learn from what happened, apply and get back to riding!

Last note..

TNT, your bike is still together? I can't wait to see you on this forum bashing again when something else fails!

TNT

01-23-2010, 07:28 PM

Originally posted by xrxmxcx
Glad you care buddy, have a good night sleep yourself!

Engineers = Speculate and think about how to fix it, break out the computer!

Mechanics = Fix it and learn from what happened, apply and get back to riding!

Last note..

TNT, your bike is still together? I can't wait to see you on this forum bashing again when something else fails!

Thanks for the education XRX,

TNT - Masters in Aerospace Engineering, Licensed Aerospace Federal Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic....25 year industry experience. TNT>BRP>XRX>RD> LOL! BRP could not afford me, you get it free!

I'm just playing with ya, besides I had enough beer last night!

:D

Last I taked to Trever he THINKS we got all the metal out of the motor, think we drained and flushed it all out with oil part of the alumnum basket probably all got torn up from steel gears. I just hope we got it all out.

Putting a stock basket back in waiting for BCS basket two weeks since he said his does not use rivets like the Hinson, they have a machined in boss that holds the gear on.

I need to look at that shifter thing your dad was talking about in the book tomorrow.

Boy says there is some plastic gear on the stock basket we have to order Monday, got a race next Sat hope holds up two weeks till BCS gets it in.

All else fails just got the 05 YAM rebuilt as a back up.

TNT

01-23-2010, 07:29 PM

Opps!

TNT

01-23-2010, 07:30 PM

Beer sounds good actually! :D

xrxmxcx

01-23-2010, 07:48 PM

Last I taked to Trever he THINKS we got all the metal out of the motor, think we drained and flushed it all out with oil part of the alumnum basket probably all got torn up from steel gears. I just hope we got it all out.

GL with that! A close friend of mine had the identicle thing happen when someone brake checked him and the machine stopped suddenly on impact! Youch!

Putting a stock basket back in waiting for BCS basket since he said his does not use rivets like the Hinson, they have a machined in boss that holds the gear on.

I caught drift of that last time I was over at BCS, for now our baskets/stock basket are at Hinson Racing having the gear and plastic oil gear swapped over. They offered to do ours and set them up, so why not!

I need to look at that shifter thing your dad was talking about in the book tomorrow.

Part #'s and info isn't listed in the book unfortunately, the part #'s are posted in the other thread with the quantity needed after it. They are superceded and replace anything 09 and older, the shift pawls are something right from BRP race dept. and your dealer should be able to get them, not 100% sure.

If you do need parts, contact MARK @ Mark's Motorsports. (860)741-5115, Hard to catch him, but he knows exactly what the deal is with changing your parts to the updated parts and can get them for you no problem. Be sure to tell him the Corliss's sent you TNT LOL!

Boy says there is some plastic gear on the stock basket we have to order Monday, got a race next Sat hope holds up two weeks till BCS gets it in.

Should be alright short term, most of the problem is the stepped last plate and how much strength it takes away from the basket because of the "stupid" design as Hinson says'

As far as the plastic gear you cant save them anyways.. Probably damaged in the shrapnel going through the motor but removing the gear you have to break the tabs to get it off anyways, throw away 1 time use part i guess..

we looked at it and found that out but our new basket can be swapped without removing the plastic gear

All else fails just got the 05 YAM rebuilt as a back up.

Dont feel bad I spend some time riding my old YAM hybrid last year, nothing specific failed, just damaged Can-am PEP shock line :(

hope thats some more useful info.. :devil:

TNT

01-23-2010, 08:25 PM

I tell ya the stock basket is a "stupid design" does not care about the motor mods the ridge and you argue all night, Hinson tells you you listen! Go figure!

Ok so I see the sprawls and drum buried in the tranny in the book. Your telling me 09's need the update? I heard of a false nuetral on 08's not 09's. We've never seen false nuetral on 09's, what is that just a light? Have not experienced it?

That drum is way in the tranny, we just rebilt that from the stupid oil squirter ruining it remember another dumb problem the DS has caused over $500 in tranny damage and you wonder why we complain, got to split the case, hope we didn't tear anything up that deep. :rolleyes:

So now your telling me we got to open the tranny AGAIN?

Do the dealers have access to this info?

xrxmxcx

01-23-2010, 08:43 PM

Clutch...

Spent some time on the phone Fri with the guys @ Hinson. General consensus was the OEM was OK with the 2009-9, a much better setup than a NON-UPDATED setup. They said they would hold up but extended long-term use was inevitable for some wear. They told us most would make it through a season or little longer on a stock setup with mild mods and putting some ease on the bike and not killing it. Anything making some big power and higher compression it is highly recommended to use a different basket and go with the 9-plate hub.

I haven't heard much about the parts either, I will talk to Mark and see what he says about 2009's using the parts, and if they were ever changed.

Whats your engine #? for reference?

TNT

01-23-2010, 08:55 PM

Ok, well to me it's riskey theres no way to quantify the amount of motor mods and fatigue life of this basket and when it fails it's not pretty for that reason I am stating the 2009-9 yes better than the 08 but the 2009 ride at your own risk! Unless Hinson has run cyclic fatigue life to ultimate failure test on a manufactured lot sample.

It's been interesting this clutch, we all thought over the past year it is fixed and actually we put ALOT of torque like 35 ft-lbs hard racing and as I said I was impressed at how long it held but when it failed it went from 1/4 lever play to complete failure and engine damage.

Yes after a short period time we ran a GYTR clutch in the YAM so putting it in perspective playing feild is equal, and Trever agrees with you on the clutch and axle so he talked me into the keeping the DA** quad after we considered the KTM buddy close to his speed frying tranny's, SUK Chase Snapp close freind 3rd all the time, HON cranks, KAWI don't know, POL don't know, YFZr forget it!

Let me know about the drum/pawns. I'll ask Trev for the engine # tomorrow when I talk to him on the phone. Thx!

xrxmxcx

01-23-2010, 09:09 PM

I agree with it being hit or miss because results are all over the board.

Seems that there is a lot to go wrong and it sucks taking chances, DNF's = no fun. I want to get some more info from Jay about the gear mounting and will find out what the deal is, sounds interesting. Probably have some more information by Mon/Tue.

(When I stated the stock basket was okay I was looking outside of the MX/XC scene as your everyday average Joe is a lot less likely to have a failure.)

Going to go down and work on the bikes and finish up a project (upper prec. mount) we have been working on then going to ride indoors MX/SX!

:devil:

Familiar setup huh?

TNT

01-23-2010, 11:03 PM

Originally posted by TNT
Ok, well to me it's riskey theres no way to quantify the amount of motor mods and fatigue life of this basket and when it fails it's not pretty for that reason I am stating the 2009-9 and 08 update yes better BUT 2009-9 ride at your own risk! Unless Hinson has run cyclic fatigue life to ultimate failure test on a manufactured lot sample.

Everyone untill you see test results as I stated whether you ride for rec or racing get the basket BCS has the best one out there.

TNT

01-23-2010, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by TNT
Here is a weld design I drew up real fast, it could also be reinforced with sheet metal brackets bolted instead of welded. Now we just need a crafty hands on metal fab guy to try it...I pick up two bolts instead of one through the Z bracket and my holes have lots of tear out room to the edge, I also increase the gage of the extrusion by .020 or so which is still light.

This design needs a new aluminum 2024-T3 Z-bracket(you can buy extruded z sections cut to length, easy) and welded 6061-T6 Front Frame Assembly made of extruded rectangular bar stock you buy and cut to length then weld, left hand right hand opposite(should be able to flip over not mirror or need two different assemblies, just 1).

I only drew the left hand side, right hand side not shown stopped drawing down the center of the radiator. Also drawn side ways left is up. Don't ask why I did that I was looking at the pic that is sideways in the thread lol.

This is the fix IF it happens to you I dont like steel around 4130 nor does BRP or you see it use 6061-T6 if welded or 2024-T-3 on the Z bracket, pick up two fasteners thats the key not steel!

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/Slide2-3.jpg

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/DSWELDDESIGN.jpg

This is really an easy fix I could come up with more designs so could BRP or BCS or maybe some of you all, but this is what we need to focus on not bandaiding the bad design, we need to rid of the bad BRP design. If mine failed this is what I'd do and would not buy a stock replacement. :D

TNT

01-23-2010, 11:38 PM

Thats the fix above I don't like 4130 steel w/2024-T3 aluminum too many hard points and stress risers on the al nor does BRP or they design it in easy! Keep it all aluminum make it work, look at Cannondale!

TNT

01-23-2010, 11:50 PM

Originally posted by TNT
Thats the fix above I don't like 4130 steel w/2024-T3 aluminum too many hard points and stress risers nor does BRP or they design it in easy! Keep it all aluminum make it work, look at Cannondale!

Yes we got the most technologically advanced quad in the industry just a little rough around the edges. :D

Trever #101 and Terry Portier TNT Can to the mx nat a-class prod podium 2010

Our name behind our post we don't hide behind a computer! :D

TNT

02-01-2010, 01:55 PM

Leaving the site won’t be posting much anymore. I get a lot of PM’s and post from a lot of nice people wanting help and I appreciate it. To those I say thank you it’s been fun. There’s a lot of good info you will find useful in this thread. If you need further help here’s my email address Terrylport@yahoo.com.

motohanks

02-01-2010, 02:38 PM

sad to see you go TNT, you have been the main reason why I've been keeping an eye on the DS450 section. I enjoyed reading your posts and the information you provided about the Can-Am and an engineers perspective on the designs and problems that came up.

If it isn't too much trouble would you mind sharing a little of the information you have learned about the YFZ450 during the years that your son raced one. I have a 2008 YFZ450 that I bought from Thomas Brown and another mostly stock 2005 YFZ450 that I have been racing in a stock class the past couple seasons.
my email is motohanks@yahoo.com if you would prefer to share it that way.

If it's too much trouble, then I just wanted to say that I enjoyed reading your posts about the DS450 and I value the information you have provided.
Thanks,
Brian Hanks

witech

03-12-2010, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by TNT
Well were getting close so I thought I start a thread on some of the new products and our progress. If all goes right I hope to show some dyno runs Wed/Thursday...We found out today we forgot to get a head/seat gasket so we are having over night to us Wednesday from Canada.....

Here the new CP prototype piston, 500 CC...you can see the difference. It's a little heavier than we wanted it but that will make it more reliable.....It will rob us of some power, we'll see but we may machine some out of it.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/Piston.jpg

Also the sleeve..

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/Sleve.jpg

And the heat boot....best way to go on the market....once we get it all together I will call CV and give them the go ahead to start production. You can also see the ECU protector in this pic.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/Bootinstalled.jpg

Ill have more in the next few days....

We're getting excited it's really coming together nice, the motor and the quad.
I just read this post for the first time.
Did this engine fail because the piston was installed backwards?
From the looks of the porting I can easily see why your getting such high torque and low horsepower. If you need I think I know someone who can get you going in the right direction.

TNT

03-15-2010, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by witech
I just read this post for the first time.
Did this engine fail because the piston was installed backwards?
From the looks of the porting I can easily see why your getting such high torque and low horsepower. If you need I think I know someone who can get you going in the right direction.

Engine failed since we forgot to install a wrist pin cir-clip. If you know someone that can point me to someone that can show me flow data from the air filter to atomizing in the combustion chamber I’d be interested otherwise thanks for the offer we can port the head alone on a flow bench. I’d question the smaller ports with a big bore on such a high reving motor and how much of a proven gain you get from just the reducing the port size, we run a larger injector too….it be interesting to see exactly what the pressure drop and velocity gain would be at the port and how it effected fuel-air atomization (combing molecules fast is where you see the torque gains, which I would think smaller ports like the 450r has would result in) vs a higher volume air that can result in the same thing especially in a bigger can under higher volumetric pressure....Think thats what the 450R tried to do but the 3-intakes end up competing for fuel instead of harmonizing. I beleive the DS does not need as much advanced timing as the 450r 5 valve so if this reaction could happen faster it may have some proven benefits, some testing of the entire intake-to-combustion track would tell.