Why buy the DS450 and not ltr

[KrazyKeith]

can anyone tell me why to buy a 08ds for 6200+tax
and not an 07ltr for 4995 OTD help me out here guys Gonna buy one or the other real soon....which one hmm.......

[dbkbushwacker]

Get the ltr, I love my ds but I should of waited a year before purchasing one.

[TNT]

Originally posted by KrazyKeith
can anyone tell me why to buy a 08ds for 6200+tax
and not an 07ltr for 4995 OTD help me out here guys Gonna buy one or the other real soon....which one hmm.......

Whoever is trying to sell you at 08 at that price is trying to rip you off. You can get a 09 cheaper than that with all the perks the Racer Program offers and have a much better quad. Make sure all the bulletins are done!

[KrazyKeith]

Originally posted by TNT1
Whoever is trying to sell you at 08 at that price is trying to rip you off. You can get a 09 cheaper than that with all the perks the Racer Program offers and have a much better quad. Make sure all the bulletins are done!


so what is a good price for the 08. and where do you get a 09 cheeaper than that?

[TNT]

I wouldn't buy a 08, theres more problems with them alot of people don't know about...it's a first year quad, look at any in the inagrial year they all have learning curves.

I'd go online to the BRP site and apply for the program up front get it in front of you depending on your qualifications what they are willing to do....You'll need a very impressive resume and sales pitch on how you will promote thier products fax it in, like any OEM factory support. Then at the point I'd shop for one and look for dealer discounts too(contact me at that time), make sure the 09 has the clutch updated since not all do and get all the bullitin's and your engine # and cross check them, then make the dealer do all the updates if any before you purchase the quad.

[Blizzard24]

I love to disagree w TNT, so here is how I see it.

If you can get into the racer program they will take an additional $1000 off the 08 price. You will get $500 off off 09 prices with the program.

With the 08 you will also receive in your racer kit alot of the upgrades to the 09 like the twin row carrier.

With a new 08 you will also be able to have the recalls done like the flywheel bolts, motor mount, clutch update as the quad is still under factory warranty. You can have your dealer reset the ECU for the limp mode increase or if you do have the racer program you are sent a new ECU without the limp mode anyway.

You would also be eligible to get the 09 suspension upgrades if you are racing XC or MX for 75% off.

I would however work out a better price than $6200... shoot for the $5500 mark and work on that racer support program!

[KrazyKeith]

thanx Bliz

[TNT]

I didn't mean to knock the 08's. Just last week I had a guy call me who was blowing fuses couldn't understand why? Well come to find out he called a Worc's Race team lead and they told him they had blown them all through the beginning of the 08 season and that the factory had installed the wrong size fuses. He aslo said he's had nothing but problems, endless! The team bumped them up a few amps. At the same time I had noticed on the 09's the fuse sizes called out in the shop 08 manual are wrong and the 09 has bigger fuses in it. So there was an electrical design change most do not know about, no recalls or service bulletins, and that was not made known to the public. Made me wonder what else?

Anyway, I guess Blizzard has a point if you could show a substantial saving's through the racer program for an 08 do it, but just don't expect as much. A lot of 08 owners, and there are a number on this site are disappointed, but that can be due to what they expect for what they paid. Again back in 07/08 some paid a lot and have a legit complaint, others later got discounts... you get what you pay for 9 x's out of 10.

I think another thing to considers just like an automobile or anything is depreciation, you may get it cheaper now but bear in mind resale and book value if someone wants to get a loan or buy it from you in the future.

[Blizzard24]

Originally posted by TNT1
At the same time I had noticed on the 09's the fuse sizes called out in the shop 08 manual are wrong and the 09 has bigger fuses in it. So there was an electrical design change most do not know about, no recalls or service bulletins, and that was not made known to the public.

Good to know on that TNT, which fuse and what Amp Rating did they go with?

As for the 08-09 deal- I went with an 08 this past Oct, The quad has been out a year now and I saw what needed updating and recalls were starting to appear so I know some things were worked out.
I saw some weak areas and being around quads a long time I believe I can build a better mousetrap.
The two things that were concerns were the frame and the engine and those two things have held up from what I have seen.

The clutch is an easy fix (I went w a Hinson Basket and now the clutch update from Can Am)
The Limp mode I had adjusted the day I picked the quad up, I also changed out the coolant for Engine Ice.

The flywheel and motor mount recalls I had done almost immedietely.

My only issue right now is the radiator being up front, I am not sold on how to keep it from getting clogged in a 2 hr mud race. I will be running the louver kit and installing a screeen type material on the front of the "X" package bumper.

I believe Bithell is using a "PUSH" fan on the front of the radiator and is using some type of "cage" to create a pocket of protection to keep air flow, so I am looking more into that.

I raced a 2hr race this past weekend in Georgia and the track was under water (4 inches of rain fell that day) and muddy, the quad performed flawlessly. 2.5' of water and red clay. No airbox lid, and the quad never once hiccuped, never ran hot and I took 2nd place, not bad for a new first year quad in its first xc race.

I will also add, the quad has a full HMF Exhaust and the pink wire cut... this quad fires up in less than 2 cranks and from a dead engine start took the holeshot.

[hotshotgoal30]

that is one thing i do love. i hit the start button and its like instantaneous when it starts. even in the dead of winter which around here some nights is -10 give or take a few.

[crixal]

get the ltr. sticker on an 08 ltr today was 5699. if i could go back, i'd get the 09 yfz or ltr.

[hotshotgoal30]

not trying to start an argument but i spent a few minutes in the ltr450 thread. seems they have a good amount of problems themselves. alot of problems with running and not starting

[hotshotgoal30]

how many people do you know with a ds? sucks to be them then. i cant say the same. i havnt had any major issues. stupid little things that were fixed quickly. and there are many people who race alot who are saying that they have been great machines and what not. so i think the saying goes six one way half dozen the other or something like that

[RATPACK Z400]

I read all 450 posts and the suzuki by far has the least amount of motor problem by far ,thats a great deal go for the suzuki ! parts are easier to get ,probably cheaper.

[grantmi]

Originally posted by KrazyKeith
can anyone tell me why to buy a 08ds for 6200+tax
and not an 07ltr for 4995 OTD help me out here guys Gonna buy one or the other real soon....which one hmm.......

Question #1.....what do you want to do with the quad???? Rec Ride, XC, MX??

Each quad has its good merits.....just depends what you want to do.

LTR450 looks 100x better. :macho

[Blizzard24]

Originally posted by hondarider11
That's becuase the ltr is 100 times better. The can am is not proven and breaks constantly. I would rather go with a proven machine and I am sure the reason people stick up for can am is becuase they have some kind of racing program or else they have one and don't want to admit they got robbed of 8 grand or whatever they are.

Breaks constantly?
TRX45R- Crank and tranny problems, valves needing replacement every other adjust, Frames cracking.
YFZ450 (04-05)- Electrical issues, 04-06 Oiling issues causing pistons to break, crank problems
LTR- Shift pin problems, 08- Weak tranny's
KFX- Electrical issues
KTM- Frame issues, overheating issues

All of them have issues, pick your poison! Maybe it has or maybe it hasnt happened to you, but all of the above are common issues on all of these quads.

[TNT]

Blizzard we're on the same page, good post!

Hondarider, I’m assuming you’re young under 30 at least and got a lot to learn. Seems like you’re a bright young man, inquisitive in your own way lol, enjoys quads got a appetite to create challenges for others but present little fact behind your post. So heres one for you to better your post so people will listen to you more and you can learn something while your at it. Rather than spatting out statistics like 100 with no substantial fact as a basis or back up data, go do some homework and get some. The internet has great search engines and info you can gather before you post. Go do some research on reliability and maintenance; there are actually mathematical formulas to determine it statistically. Go collect some data on the Can-am and LTR, maintenance and reliability statistics and probabilities of failures based on those formulas. You need data to make your determinations and to solve the formula’s you can get from repair shops, cyclic failures, Mean Times Between Repairs called MTBR, MTTR –Mean Time To Replace, Mean Time Between Failures(MTBF)….go look those up on the internet, learn something then come back and post some good info. Good luck!

[Quadevil]

Originally posted by Blizzard24
KTM- Frame issues, overheating issues

Nope. Doesn't have frame issues till now. Only heard of two people that broke them but that was because they hit trees etc at 50mph. Any other quad would brake the frame at that speed lololol
It's more a question of fame than the truth...
Overheating yes, if you run constantly at high rpms...

[grantmi]

[i]
Go do some research on reliability and maintenance; there are actually mathematical formulas to determine it statistically. Go collect some data on the Can-am and LTR, maintenance and reliability statistics and probabilities of failures based on those formulas. You need data to make your determinations and to solve the formula’s you can get from repair shops, cyclic failures, Mean Times Between Repairs called MTBR, MTTR –Mean Time To Replace, Mean Time Between Failures(MTBF)….go look those up on the internet, learn something then come back and post some good info. Good luck! [/B]

Can you post this data TNT?? I would love to see the statistics comparing brands.....but have never seen this available on the internet. You seem to know...enlighten us with the data!

[TNT]

In order to determine means, you have to have an accurate samples of production quads. You know how the hour intervals are calculated in maintenance manuals, by MTTR, MTBF, and MTBM. Looking at the maintenance hours in the repair manuals will give you a better idea of how reliable a quad is. It's not all you need but a start. There are professionals that track those statistics to probabiliities to generate the maintenance schedules and repair manuals. That info is not generated by small production samples like many of you try and do out here that means very little.

I think it would be good for Hondarider to take on the challenge so he can learn something and give us some good info. MTTR, MTBF, MTBM, using accurate samples, statistics and probabilities.

These OEM's can actually test parts to failure too. They build test fixture that cycle parts under say vibration, to what we call "ultimate failure" or "limit loads" or "yield strengths". Limit loads are a design load, yield is where the part begins to fail, ultimate load is where it actually fails. We have those numbers we design to from years of gathering data and computer models. Other forms of testing of bending and twisting a swing arm to see what it's compression or tension capabilities are. Same type of data gathering in electrical, mechanical, lubricants, etc...

Lots to learn out there for the young restless and inquisitive rather than spending too much time out here posting with little research and knowledge.

[TNT]

Originally posted by grantmi
Can you post this data TNT?? I would love to see the statistics comparing brands.....but have never seen this available on the internet. You seem to know...enlighten us with the data!

No I want you to I'm too old been there done it. :D

I just enlightened you gave you some hints now go do it.....lol!

[ScottB125]

I bought my 08 DS a little over a year ago. I'm no professional, but do ride mx tracks. I have had zero issues with the quad. I ride it at least once a week during race season.

[Blizzard24]

I am not putting any one of them down, I am saying they all have their own issues, you are the one putting the Can Am down, and just as you havent had any problems w your TRX or your buddy with his YFZ I havent had any issues w my Can Am.

And I have had two YFZ's and neither gave me problems but I have friends that did have problems w their YFZ's and know quite a few people that have crank issues w their TRX's... and ALL of them have gone through mutiple sets of valves.

Again, I am not bashing any one of them, but none of them are perfect or even close to perfect.

PS, the Tranny problems are more frequent on the new 08 and 09 LTRs than the older ones.

[hotshotgoal30]

some of these people must get aroused by coming into forums of machines they dont have and bashing them. get a life. all machines have their problems. and you say ohhh my friend has a yfz no electrical issues. did he say every yfz has electrical issues? nooooo. do some DS450's have problems yessss.. do all? nooo. has the yfz and ltr been around longer than the DS? yesssss have they had time to work out the kinks? yesssss.. give me a break. noone has claimed the DS to be perfect and i dont think anyone expects them to be. its a great quad and in the next 5 years when can am gets everything worked out it will be a well rounded awesome machine

[Quadevil]

Originally posted by hotshotgoal30
It's a great quad and in the next 5 years when Can Am gets everything worked out it will be a well rounded awesome machine.

I agree with you but i hope it doesn't take them 5 years to perfect it...:confused:

[Blizzard24]

Originally posted by Quadevil
Nope. Doesn't have frame issues till now. Only heard of two people that broke them but that was because they hit trees etc at 50mph. Any other quad would brake the frame at that speed lololol
It's more a question of fame than the truth...
Overheating yes, if you run constantly at high rpms...

I was involved in a conversation with an "A" rider at last weeks AMA National Harescrable in GA, last year he was on a KTM and this year he is back on a Honda... he had frame issues until KTM stepped up and got him into an 09 Frame, the 08 frame would not stay together. He also suffered from overheating and a lot of little things going wrong with it. He is not the only one I have heard from about frame issues and overheating.

Again, I am not saying this is happening to ALL of them, but I am seeing the same patterns with every quad I listed, not just some hear-say.
The KTM is a great quad but it is not perfect and has its weak points just like any other quad out there.

[TNT]

Originally posted by Quadevil
I agree with you but i hope it doesn't take them 5 years to perfect it...:confused:

Whats wrong with the 09?

[Blizzard24]

Whats wrong with the 08's?

Can Am has stepped up and is either recalling or updating the main issues with the 08's, name another company that has done that with known problems

01-02 Raptor- Bad tranny's... Yamah updated the -3's with correct parts but never offered to help the 01-02 owners.

04-05 YFZ- Charging issues, rectified in 06 w the addition of a capacitor; Oiling issues- 07-09 have the "Oil Squirter" built in to help with this. No recalls for the previous owners on any of this

450r's- Bad cranks- yep nothing, if it goes out, its your problem

LTR's- bad shift pins that destroy cases- You need to go out and buy a bracket and install it yourself to fix this, has Suzuki stepped up... nope its all on you too.

Can Am isnt perfect, but they are doing more for the owners than other companies have.

[Quadevil]

Originally posted by TNT1
Whats wrong with the 09?

Like we're talking, there's always things that need improvement and i was referring to that.
One of the things with the DS i don't like is they have excessive roll compared with the other quads. This is in part due to the shock position/inclination, they are too vertical. I think that's one thing they could change just to give you an example...

[TNT]

Body roll has nothing to do with the shock positioning or angle. It's based on the Cg, fwd spindle locations, a forward and rear axis through the cg, the spindle relationship in a g-dive to that axis as it moves off center or "rolls", and the amount of cornering G force applied at the CG, its location. That roll can be adjusted out by many means. Majority of population out there does not know how to deal with roll(in plane or out of plane) or set up shocks up properply. We found the DS to handle corners better than any quad we own but I know how to set the quad up for it.

Ok what fun! lol! ...Whats next? I'm talking about failure points not rider preference stuff...I mean thats what started all this how the can am breaks down all the time. Someone tell me where the 09's are breaking down?

[TNT]

Ill try and get the time to draw up and diagram of the effects of shock angles on quads next week, there is little change to dampening. The spindle location is used to determine the body roll axis in a g-dive.

[Quadevil]

Originally posted by TNT1
Body roll has nothing to do with the shock positioning or angle.

I see you are a knowledgeable person and you know what you're talking but in this one you're wrong. Shock angle indeed affects in body roll. Everything else you said is correct, CG etc but this one is wrong.

The more inclined shock angle (like KTM SX for example):
- Softer initial shock damping.
- More progressive damping.
- Improved lateral traction.
- Less body roll
- Handling will be more forgiving.
- Good for high traction or bite tracks, will make your quad more stable.

Less shock angle, standing up the shock (like DS450 is almost vertical):
- Stiffer initial shock damping.
- Less lateral traction.
- Makes your quad more responsive.
- Can make your quad have a more direct feel.
- More body roll
- Can be best suited for tight, technical tracks with many low speed corners.

As you can see and i'm sure you have the knowledge, in terms of handling, this is always a "trade". You win in some aspects, you lose in others. But the fact is, the body roll is greater and in fact, all magazines said in the shootouts that the DS450 has a bit more body roll then the others and that IN PART is due to this aspect.

I can go deeper into this if you're not convinced...

[TNT]

Ok, thats good info but I am going to challenge it next week. I just got off working thinking hard all day take breaks out here love this stuff......but good put. I'll start a new thread and show you what I found, pretty technical but I am still trying to get a grip on it.

I'm still wanting to know where my 09 in my garage is failing? Breaking?

I noticed you do your homework Quadevil good for you, but did you ever consider changing your name you don't seem like a evil guy???? :confused: :D JK!

[hotshotgoal30]

what i meant when saying in the next 5 years was because thats basically hom long the yfz has been out. and i know the yfzr is new and updated but they had something to go off of. and i think thats what these other people dont understand. the DS was built ground up from people who were committed to building a 450 that was not only at par but better than the competition. there was no other model from can am for them to go off of. im not saying there was anything rong with the 09's. heck i got an 08 that is getting the 09 clutch. and no i have not had any problems with the clutch im just thinking ahead knowing there could POTENTIALLY be a problem id like to get it taken care of now. other than that just my coolant leak which who cares it didnt stop me dead in my tracks or even stop me from riding

[TNT]

Originally posted by hotshotgoal30
what i meant when saying in the next 5 years was because thats basically hom long the yfz has been out. and i know the yfzr is new and updated but they had something to go off of. and i think thats what these other people dont understand. the DS was built ground up from people who were committed to building a 450 that was not only at par but better than the competition. there was no other model from can am for them to go off of. im not saying there was anything rong with the 09's. heck i got an 08 that is getting the 09 clutch. and no i have not had any problems with the clutch im just thinking ahead knowing there could POTENTIALLY be a problem id like to get it taken care of now. other than that just my coolant leak which who cares it didnt stop me dead in my tracks or even stop me from riding

Hotshot my question was not directed at you, you have good valid points right on the money.

Guys Merril is at Ballance today running A class national MX against HON, YAMS, KTMs, Suk, last race he got like 3rd in a heat on a practically stock 09 DS...Now he has a few mod's hc 13.5 piston, cams, port, pipe not sure he got the PC 3 maybe just pink wire, I bet he has no trouble and puts it on the podium this weekend. Lets watch and see they post result on the website. What more proove do we need?

[TNT]

Oh and he's running stock KYB when I bet the rest are running high dollar shocks. We run that class they all well most got big mods and big buck shocks. :blah:

[Quadevil]

Originally posted by TNT1
Ok, thats good info but I am going to challenge it next week. I just got off working thinking hard all day take breaks out here love this stuff......but good put. I'll start a new thread and show you what I found, pretty technical but I am still trying to get a grip on it.

I'm still wanting to know where my 09 in my garage is failing? Breaking?

I noticed you do your homework Quadevil good for you, but did you ever consider changing your name you don't seem like a evil guy???? :confused: :D JK!

I'm looking into that info.
About the name, i picked it at random :D
Nice talking to you man, guys like you are real assets to this forums ;)

[TNT]

Ok yeah last race at Pell City he has 520 HON there too and got lap times not far from the stock DS....Lets see what they are now?

[coryatver]

Originally posted by TNT1
[B What more proove do we need? [/B]

Today's PM GNCC race all the ds's didn't even finish. This is there second season 4th race into it and they still can't even finish the race:ermm: Oh by the way a LTR won the race.

[TNT]

Hendrix won the 09 Worc's season opener on a DS ....

Ya got admit tho those LTR's are doing well too...they been around a while and should be more of them out there to increase the odds, just like HON's, Yams....

[TNT]

Outside of getting a screaming sponsorship deal on ours the main thing I am excited about is when we got it done here we hope next week there will be nothing like on the gate. Nobody has alot of parts they are a first build. Well see, I don't have enough info on the 09 to tell you if it holds up or not. We are putting alot more unique mods into it than most. Parts were hard to get so we made them, piston, intakes, cylinders, custom made throttle body... it's been a pain in the ***** and we are late getting it out missed races...I'm hoping it pays off the way things are shaping up I think it will. We'll have dyno's and pics soon. I think you guys will be impressed so far.

[TNT]

Originally posted by coryatver
Today's PM GNCC race all the ds's didn't even finish. This is there second season 4th race into it and they still can't even finish the race:ermm: Oh by the way a LTR won the race.

What baffles me about that is the Worc's series pro's run 2hr races I believe? Desert, trails, mx right? So why does Hendrix bike hold and he is one fast, fast, hard on the quad racer, and the XC don't?....We're not XC racers but you guys run how long?

[TNT]

Two Can ams top finishers beat honda...:D

http://www.worcsracing.com/Videos/2009_atv_round3.html

[TNT]

http://www.atvrideronline.com/newsfront/0903_atvp_brp_racing_weekend_gncc_itp_quadcross/index.html

[TNT]

Check out the first 3 pro rounds dominated by Can am..

http://atv.worcsracing.com/results_2009/results_main.asp

Go Can AM!! :D

[ml450r]

http://escoremx.com/results/atvamx/2009/laptimes.asp?s=1&c=102&e=3&rn=1&rt=H

My results in open A here at ballance. I was in the faster heat once again. I got a great start with my new rossier motor. Came out of turn one in 3rd, Chase Cunningham passed me in turn 2, Derek Swart***er got around me pretty quick also, but he crashed in the roller section leaving me to finish 4th.

The info about the shock angle clears up what I feel my bike is doing. I said it transfers weght too much. I feel like the front end is always heavy. I played with my shocks alittle and got it working quite a bit better. I think there is definately some truth to the shock angle doing what quadevil is saying. He nailed my issues with handling perfect.

[spanky101]

Congrats on the good run with the ds! Id love to have a ds450mx and they seem to be doing pretty good.

[spanky101]

All of the 450's had to have bugs worked out. Its part of the process.

[TNT]

Good job Merril...go get em today! Ol Chase got ya ehh, hmmmm I'm going to have to have a little talk with that young man and see what he's been putting in his energy drink! :D

HondaRider, you continue to not impress me lol! How can say you the Worc's series has little credibility in our racing? It's the fastest, it and IPT Quadx series on the west coast deserving NATIONAL series status. It's says ALOT to run that series. I'd like to see you do it. If I were Frederick or Baron on the HON even, I'd be insulted by your comments, lets show some respect to these fellow racers they worked hard to get where they are. I have still yet for you to tell me whats wrong with my 09?

AMA Lawson and Natalie top 10 finishers RD 2, lets see what happens today. DS is not getting the breaks in GNCC but it's not the only one, BRP did well 2nd in College A and is doing very well in the 4x4 classes.

The shock angle is located in a perfect place on the DS right where the lower arm bends back up to gain ground clearance. Look at where it is mounted on the YFZr and you will appreciate this. All of the force comes in from the tire patch and gets transferred mainly by the lower arm to the frame attach axis where there is a moment reaction. The moment value is the force times the distance from the tire patch to the frame. A component of that force gets applied at the lower shock mount axis, forward-rear/in-out/ up-down/ and a component vector up the shock. If you change the angle and move the shock closer or further to the tire patch, the moment arm change to the tire patch will be so small it will have very little effect on the component shock force. Nothing that could not be adjusted out with a good shock. Changing the angle of shock will do little if anything to this force, it's just there to dampen it out not react it out by a counter moment. Changing the relationship of arms, spindles, front end geometry with respect to the CG(or mass center), or weight distribution, or "roll axis", will have a LARGE impact on body roll and the force applied up(and down) the shock.

Merril your problem is the KYB's are not a very good shock and if you don't weigh 170-180 not set up right for you(my son and Marine World said you were a pretty big guy so that explains it), try our PEPs or a better shock valved and pre-loaded right for you, I think you'll notice a BIG difference. :D

[Blizzard24]

Not sure what happened to Bithel but some other posts are saying Sturdivant had a shock problem, if thats the case it is not the machine, its an aftermarket part.

[coryatver]

its not just one thing at the first gncc race the women's can am racer brand new motor blew up. Then they put in a new motor for the next race and KABOOM again. she got second yesterday luckily it held together for her this time the pro guys was smoking by the 3rd lap and eventually called it a day. What happen at the last mx race to john natalie first moto he had to pull off? I mean come on I bought the factory I see how many guys they got working on these bikes full time and they still haven't gotten it figured out by now how to even get them to finish the race consistency without breaking? And I don't even think they sold many last year that is why they are giving 08's away to racers becuase they need to get rid of them. I don't really care how they are doing in worcs it is a totally different type of racing.

The local xc series i run is ran by a can am dealer and they have unbelievable deals on can-ams and with the race program and parts and everything on top of that they have huge contingency. I would love to ride one and take advantange of the benefits they have but I need a quad that will at least finish the race and if those factory teams with there mechanics, money, parts, and everything they can't even finish the dang race how am I going to? chris bithell shows up to a lot of these races and he never even makes a lap before the thing blows or breaks. I just need something to give me more confidence in these bikes. I really would like to own one with all there support they are giving but I want a quad that will finish the race. I am hoping maybe in future models they will move the radiator somewhere where it isn't a roost guard and make the motor more reliable.

[TNT]

Weinen went from Worc's to Pell city nothing but probs on a KAWI, don't buy one of those either. Shall I continue last season and this with the rest? Last season I seen Byrd break at LL on a HON, common after five years of race teams mechanics on it????? Natalie on a HON seen him break...Now you got to choose your poison? :D Or maybe at this point based on your metrics you have nothing to choose from since if you consider the time frames for HON, YAM, SUk with respect to the DS, KAWI, KTM and volumes in the racing circuits they should NEVER BREAK AT ALL! :rolleyes: :D

In retrospect the KTM, DS, KAWI are looking pretty good! Do the math!

Some of you people crack me up!! :D

I got to go fix all my problems on the DS today by the pool drinking beer and a good cigar! :D

See ya later I got a lot of work to do. :rolleyes:

[coryatver]

Originally posted by TNT1
Weinen went from Worc's to Pell city nothing but probs on a KAWI, don't buy one of those either. Shall I continue last season and this with the rest? Last season I seen Byrd break at LL on a HON, common after five years of race teams mechanics on it????? Natalie on a HON seen him break...Now you got to choose your poison? :D Or maybe at this point based on your metrics you have nothing to choose from since if you consider the time frames for HON, YAM, SUk with respect to the DS, KAWI, KTM and volumes in the racing circuits they should NEVER BREAK AT ALL! :rolleyes: :D

In retrospect the KTM, DS, KAWI are looking pretty good! Do the math!

Some of you people crack me up!! :D

I got to go fix all my problems on the DS today by the pool drinking beer and a good cigar! :D

See ya later I got a lot of work to do. :rolleyes:

:huh Do you work for can am? Or involved with them some how?

[TNT]

I got to admit tho I look at what some of these race teams are doing and scratch my head, Warnert included. But what they are doing has little effect on the mass population of users and the general reliability of quads.

You wouldn't judge a Ford and whether you were going to purchase one based on how well it did at NASCAR. Most of the parts and designs the race teams run the public will never be exposed to or have access to. Looking at what the mods are in the class you run would be a better indication, but even then susceptible to the knowledge of the person or company doing them. Your best experience with any quad will be your own. I did not go with what the pro's used just because they are pro's, not everything they do is perfect, look at history of any quad and you will see that. Use your own discretion.

[TNT]

Originally posted by coryatver
:huh Do you work for can am? Or involved with them some how?

No I'm an Aerospace Engineer work for a US Aerospace giant. Maybe I should send my resume to Warnert put them on the straight and narrow road to the Podium. I told Natalie to hire me but he could not afford it.....lol! Dang DS...lol! I'm too old and washed up anyway.... LMAO!

[coryatver]

ok can am pounds it into the consumers this is a race ready quad. IN many many interviews with the head marketing guy he has said they run it stock other than suspension but the only thing they do is motor work. In a racer interview i forget on what site but they said they had found that the stock motor was the best for what they do to reduce heat and for reliability i don't know what they are running now. This is nothing like nascar. Nascars are not even anything like the cars you can buy. Also many xc racers they do not hide there mods they will tell you straight up what they have and these are off the shelf things you can buy yourself from aftermarket comany's. If can am needs some trick parts to make there quad work thats even another reason for me not to get one i can't even buy the parts i need to get the best setup for it?

[TNT]

Forget the pros look at the ams unless you are one they are in a different class. My buddy quit were I work and went to work on a NASCAR Team as an Engineer, point is don't be mislead by them pro's.

Merril(MLR450) ran a stock can am Pell City got 3, top runner. He got 4th yesterday with a few mods.

I watched the KTM video they said it's a pro-am quad, Chase who beat Merril is running stock KTM. I'd say Merril put maybe grand in his and he's still under the KTM. If Merril puts some good shocks which seems to be his only complaint he will put it on the podium.

Lets watch Merril and Chase battle it today. I need to go look but in the large A-class at Pell there was only 1-2 Can-ams which drastically decreases their chance of survival and winning, they are a minority.

This will be interesting...:D

I think Chase is running a stock KTM I need to go look.

[TNT]

Nope Chase is on a Suk, my bad, but look at this class Merril is the only DS running 4th, the DS has little chance based on the odds.

http://escoremx.tracksideresults.com/results/atvamx/2009/class.asp?s=1&c=102&e=3

[TNT]

Not many can ams in most classes. Thats too bad, if BRP can not justify their existence in the sport they will pull out leaving no competiton for HON, YAM, SUK, which will drive the prices of them back up, then there will be nothing anyone can complain about anymore or blame on can-am. KTM too, needs more sales or they are gone! Mark my words.

[coryatver]

It would be a loss for the sport to loose can am they put so much money into it. Like i said before I really like the quad and love the support they are offering but in my opinion they have way to many issues to spend my hard earned money on I spend a lot of money to get to a race I want to at least finish the race and from there results in XC racing I am not to confident in that and probley a lot of other people feel the same way. I hope they make some design changes to make it more reliable and give the consumers some confidence in the product.

[RATPACK Z400]

Whats I see is that the DS450 looks bad as in breaking down on the track alot it first two years there ,s other brands doing same ,but dont have big name riders dnf on them.those things stand out for someone wanting to buy/race one IMO.The Suzuki has lots more R&D and IS an awesome quad!IMO.

[coryatver]

I just watched the live feed from the ama mx race second moto natalie and lawson both DNF. Come on can am :(


Originally posted by TNT1
Forget the pros look at the ams unless you are one they are in a different class. My buddy quit were I work and went to work on a NASCAR Team as an Engineer, point is don't be mislead by them pro's.

Merril(MLR450) ran a stock can am Pell City got 3, top runner. He got 4th yesterday with a few mods.

I watched the KTM video they said it's a pro-am quad, Chase who beat Merril is running stock KTM. I'd say Merril put maybe grand in his and he's still under the KTM. If Merril puts some good shocks which seems to be his only complaint he will put it on the podium.

Lets watch Merril and Chase battle it today. I need to go look but in the large A-class at Pell there was only 1-2 Can-ams which drastically decreases their chance of survival and winning, they are a minority.

This will be interesting...:D

I think Chase is running a stock KTM I need to go look.

[TNT]

Originally posted by coryatver
I just watched the live feed from the ama mx race second moto natalie and lawson both DNF. Come on can am :(

Oh really man thats crazy...Im beginning to wonder whats up with the Race Team Mechanics? Cant necessary blame this on the quad or BRP, the quad is only as good as the mechanic. You'd think they have some knowledgeable Engineers on that team but from some of the things I seen I wonder?

Off to see the Fast and Furious......Vin Diesel he ought a race a DS450 MX AMA! :macho

[TNT]

Originally posted by coryatver
I just watched the live feed from the ama mx race second moto natalie and lawson both DNF. Come on can am :(

Not sure what you were looking at but heres the end of the day results. Miller got 5th, no DNF's. Two Cans in top ten not bad!

http://escoremx.tracksideresults.com/results/atvamx/2009/class.asp?s=1&c=139&e=3

[TNT]

Im proud of our buddy Merril too, this is a fast class....Good job! 5th overall....

http://escoremx.tracksideresults.com/results/atvamx/2009/class.asp?s=1&c=102&e=3

[coryatver]

Originally posted by TNT1
Not sure what you were looking at but heres the end of the day results. Miller got 5th, no DNF's. Two Cans in top ten not bad!

http://escoremx.tracksideresults.com/results/atvamx/2009/class.asp?s=1&c=139&e=3

as i said i was talking about the second moto and they did not finish the race as in they did not do all the laps. lawson made it 10 laps natalie didn't even make it 10 laps before pulling off smoking. Same thing happen to him last race first moto. Im glad cody miller got some luck on his side and finished the race he deserves it but 1/3 can ams finishing the race thats not very good!

[ScottB125]

I'm gonna have to say, I think its a pretty badass bike in stock form. I have never raced in my life and went out this last weekend and won the amateur class at my local track. I have a Rossier filter and MX tires/wheels. All the other bikes had at the very least was a pipe. I was second out of the gate in both motos.

For a stock quad, it runs circles around most others. For my 37 year old *** to go out there and do what I did, says alot about the bike.

[TNT]

Originally posted by coryatver
as i said i was talking about the second moto and they did not finish the race as in they did not do all the laps. lawson made it 10 laps natalie didn't even make it 10 laps before pulling off smoking. Same thing happen to him last race first moto. Im glad cody miller got some luck on his side and finished the race he deserves it but 1/3 can ams finishing the race thats not very good!

Well lets take at look your way…..

Hon has 7 in 24 chance in winning top 5, gets 1. (5 yrs R&D)

Can has a 5/24, gets 1 (2 years R&D)

Kaw has a 4/24, gets 2 (3 years R&D)

Yam 2/24, gets 0 (5 yrs R&D)

Suk 4/24, gets 1(4 years R&D)

KTM, 1/24, gets 0(last) (1 yr R&D)

Plrs, 1/24, gets 0 (3 months R&D)


Now lets look at who has the highest probabilities based percentage of racers in the race and years of R&D and rank them in order of performance top down......

Plrs: 4% X . 3 = 1.2

KTM: 4%/0 X 1=4

Kaw: 16%/2 X3=24

Can: 20%/1X 2= 40

Yam: 8%/0 X 5=45

Suk: 16%/1 X 4= 64

Hon: 29%/1 X 5= 145

I think thats a much better assesment of a quads perfromance based on the amount of time they been in the business and racers the have on the track.

[Fred55]

Shouldn't the Polaris be 4% * .4? I'm assuming you took the .3 as 3 months, but for the same units it should be .4

[TNT]

Lets try M-years, Manufacturing years. KTM had a good base off the 08 XC year so I gave them 1. Polaris this is thier first year I gave them a discount s/b 1 but if we use .4 it won't change the results for them much. So this would be Can-ams second m-year, Suks 4, YAM/HON 6, KAW 3, lets redo it...

Plrs: 4%/0 X . 4 = 1.6

KTM: 4%/0 X 1=4

Kaw: 16%/2 X 3=24

Can: 20%/1X 2= 40

Yam: 8%/0 X 6=48

Suk: 16%/1 X 4= 64

Hon: 29%/1 X 6= 174

Made HON and YAM look even worse thats about it.
:p

[coryatver]

You can play with numbers all you want to get some that look good for your point lol. But when a factory bike pulls off the track smoking every weekend it just doesn't look good in both top series mx and xc.

I understand the other bikes have been out a while but it didn't seem to bother the other manufactures the first year the honda is out farr got 3rd and won his share of races, Chris borich got second in xc. First year ktm won many XC races and both got top 5 in the championship. First year suzuki came out and the mx team pretty much dominated. First year yamaha ballance won the gncc championship on it.

First year you can say "Its a new bike we are still working on it", or "we have had bad luck" but second season saying they need lots of time to set up is bull it is just a bad excuse. It just means the bike is not good enough and the teams are trying to figure out a way to make it work and haven't yet. Like I said if the factory teams can not get them to work how is a weekend racer like me sopposed to and when i go to the dealer there is no limit to other proven to be reliable choices sitting right next to the ds. They know this and they are offering huge racer discounts and contingency to try and get them out the door but it still isn't worth it to me at least.

[TNT]

Originally posted by coryatver
You can play with numbers all you want to get some that look good for your point lol. But when a factory bike pulls off the track smoking every weekend it just doesn't look good in both top series mx and xc.

I understand the other bikes have been out a while but it didn't seem to bother the other manufactures the first year the honda is out farr got 3rd and won his share of races, Chris borich got second in xc. First year ktm won many XC races and both got top 5 in the championship. First year suzuki came out and the mx team pretty much dominated. First year yamaha ballance won the gncc championship on it.

First year you can say "Its a new bike we are still working on it", or "we have had bad luck" but second season saying they need lots of time to set up is bull it is just a bad excuse. It just means the bike is not good enough and the teams are trying to figure out a way to make it work and haven't yet. Like I said if the factory teams can not get them to work how is a weekend racer like me sopposed to and when i go to the dealer there is no limit to other proven to be reliable choices sitting right next to the ds. They know this and they are offering huge racer discounts and contingency to try and get them out the door but it still isn't worth it to me at least.

You remind me of my 5 xwifes try to argue with logic and present very little….lol! Jk about the X's.

You do however site all the bad about can-am and present no good. I'd suggest you don't buy one go to a different forum where people place more value than we do on your opinion on the bad bad job can-am is doing. I am sure all the big name pro's and magazines are dying to get an interview and access to all the facts you have presented thus far. I'm betting you'll be the lead producer in The Factory 2...LMAO!

Just kidding, it's been fun but I'm moving on to people that can use my help making the quad better, not knocking everything about it. Good day!

[coryatver]

I had stated the good about can am as I said before they seem to be in this sport for good and are throwing a lot of advertising dollars at it for sure and they are not giving up and are still trying to figure out hopefully they can make it work and share with the consumers how to fix them.

I don't design bikes I really don't know how to all i know is from watching races the can ams don't finish the race a lot of the time and thats bad it doesn't take a aerospace engineerer to figure that out its common sense. And for a recommendation on how to fix them im no atv builder like i said but what were they thinking with the radiator location? seems like common sense to put it somewhere else where it isn't the first thing rocks and roost hit. Maybe they can relocate it. Then maybe they won't overheat and blow up every race becuase it seems like overheating is one of the main problems with them.

I really wish the race teams the best of luck and I will buy one someday if they keep offering the racer support they are and they make them more reliable. I am not going to pay to be a test rider for them. You were asking why a lot of people are not interested in the can am and that you are afraid they will pull support and I am just saying what a lot of people are thinking.

[TNT]

Well you could go buy a YFZr….we've, well my buddy, and 25 year ATV engine builder has one in his shop since it came out trying to get power at the darn thing. We got a HC piston, tried all sorts of cams, port, PC5, intake $ filter, pipe, got great low end torque, 32 ft-lbs, 48hp then at 8500 rpm's it drops off all we can get brand new Eddy Current dyno. Tried everything, we think we can get more from the ignition more revs, not sure yet. Same mods I'll show much more power out of the DS soon. I'm guessing mid-upper 50's, lots of wide ban torque. Don't get me started on the YFZr frame sand casting's, and stock arm wish bone design up front no where near the DS quality.

Yeah when your oem's throw this latest technology frame and motor out there like this you got to expect more problems. Happens in all industries….pay offs are the patents.

Your just missing a lot of info in your opinions in these products as well as their future. Actually they all bring something good to the table no matter what the pro's are doing or their results. We're ams, who cares what the pro's are doing. Where are they or the race team on any other OEM other than Can-Am that gives Am's the same Race Team Support and products they do their pro's? I'm running pro parts on a am quad, who else is allowing ams that luxury? And the thing is no am will ever run at the loads, durations, temps, that the pros do, they are a very small part of the am's world if any!

That’s why I said above lets do it your way, pro's, #'s of pro's, years of OEM development, and the DS looks pretty good. You can not argue with that logic do not try. If you want to present bad do some research gather all the facts for all the oems over time from their first year to now, I will put that info into perspective for you. I bought a first year YAM don't get me started on years of problems I seen at the pro level in 04 as well as the hon. I mean that is how all industries have done it over decades, the quad racing industry does not determine it's merits based on opinions with little fact.

Don't point me to those dumb magaizines and sales hype that have little knowledge of the real world like in our shop either. We have all the laterst quads in our shop are running test on them all. Engines on all spread all over and going out the door world wide. Pretty sure we know a few things or two.

We're all dying to see what we can do with the DS. Motor will be assembled at the end of the week and I'll put it in this weekend. We'll see soon! :macho :D