AMA RD2 PELL CITY, USA NATIONAL CAN-AM WINS!!!!

[TNT]

:D

[JRP]

lmao dude, thats not the results. thats just the pros that are racing! They dont race till 12, and 3 tomorrow

[THEMACHINIST]

Is there any pro (privateer) who race with ktm??? just to know how they are doing with the big boys.hope can am are going to be on podium

go can am go:macho :)

[ml450r]

The ktm's seem to be doing very well in the amateur classes, didn't see any in the pro class though. There were a few in th pro am production class. We'll see today how they do. Everyone seems to really like them.

[TNT]

Two Can-ams top 5 Lawson and Natalie today's results...

Pro Fast Qualifiers:
1. Wienen: 152.697
2. Dustin Wimmer: 153.48
3. Lawson: 154.25
4 Byrd
5 Natalie
6 Warnia
7 Upperman
8 Creamer
9 Gee
10 P Brown

Pro Am Fast Qualifiers:
1. Grant
2. Gibson
3. Williams

[spanky101]

Josh Upperman is doing pretty darn good this year! I gotta root for the local guy! But there seems to be alot of people who love the KTM in the ametur classes. I cant wait to see how they hold up and do

[TNT]

Originally posted by spanky101
Josh Upperman is doing pretty darn good this year! I gotta root for the local guy! But there seems to be alot of people who love the KTM in the ametur classes. I cant wait to see how they hold up and do

Im a KTM fan too but I went through alot of the classes at Pell yesterday and seen very little Can am's and KTM's.....I think those two came out during a rough recession and have not had the chance they deserve yet....Entries at Pell 776 lowest I have ever seen.

Hon seem to be the most, followed by Suk, then YAM, Kawi coming up strong too....

[bigbad400]

reason for that being that a KTM and a Can Am are easy thousand more than any others and with the money saved the modding prosess begins, and a honda 450 with a thousand in mods will beat both ktm and can am. they dont even have fuel injection either, its hard to bring yourself to pay that for a quad when you look at it in my eyes, i have 2300 into my quad total, and my little honda 400 would smoke your stock can ams, STOCK i said. not being cock but it will. i can beat the 450s most of the time, less weight more low end grunt, and alot easier to muscle around a hard corner and stuff, i chose practically. these guys on ktms and can ams choose the name, put your can am rider on a honda and he'll do just as good, its the skill not the machine. ktm is top dog but with the money saved you could make a yami honda or kawi just as fast or faster. then its all rider.

[bigbad400]

im talking stock ktm and can am vs. modded others. no doubt that the can am and ktm are top, in stock form. but like i said with the money saved you can make your others just as good. they do deserve a fighting chance but as long as price is so high why ride them? the other brands are still ranking in and with no changes, whats so grat about fuel injection anyhow? just another thing to go wrong.

[TNT]

Only reason HON, YAM, SUk, then KAWI are abundant and cheaper is they have been around longer, HON/YAM since 04, five years! Can am, KTM, 1-2 years, give it time and if HON don't do something soon they will loose the market in time. Ask HON why they put EFI on thier bike this year, eventually it all goes EFI and aluminum frames. I don't seen HON up front, lots of Suk's, Can-am Byrd is putting it up there still...agree lot of is the rider but quad too AND luck!!.

Pro Moto 1
huge first turn pile up claimed 2 of the 3 Kawies... Then Wienen broke down leaving Kawasaki with 18th, 19th and 20th.... Natalie broke after being in second for a while...

T Brown was on the gas and past a
zillion riders in route to the front...

Pro Am Prod Moto 1:
Gibson
Grant
Hienes

[TNT]

Can-am makes top 5.....

http://escoremx.tracksideresults.com/results/atvamx/2009/class.asp?e=2&c=139

[spanky101]

If you look at it its due to the length of time that the big 4 have been out... Even tho Kawi has been out for only a year and a half or so, they dont have the higher end price tag because they dont have the higher end quality components. Just about everything on the ktm and can am mx is mx ready except for minor mods that any person would do to a bike like preference mods and then minor motor mods like a pipe and jetting/efi change. I dont have much experience with the canam but i know that imo the ktm is the most race ready out of the box followed very very closely by the can am. Both are amazing machines and will be pretty capable stock or lightly modded. I know with a full exhaust and some carb work the ktm will make over 50 hp easy. The 505(actually a 477) makes 50 hp with uncorking the exhaust and changing the jetting. And from there with a hmf full exhaust and appropriate jetting made 54.7 on the same dyno in very similar weather conditions. I would imagine that the 450 is only 1-3 hp less then the 505 due to it only being 28cc's. I know these are all dyno numbers but its showing that the stock motors with minor mods are GREAT! Imo its the most powerful 450cc motor. I would love to see a canam on the same dyno and see what they put out because they seem like a great machine!!

[TNT]

Interesting lets do some math…Retail in my area.....

KTM: 450 SX $11, 398 (selling at MSRP and slow around here)
505 SX $11, 698 (selling at MSRP and slow around here)
Limited production.

09 Kawi: $7, 549, on sale $6,799 (3 in stock not selling)

09 Suk: $8,999 (hard to get no stock)

09 Hon: $7149, sale $7, 049….08 same as 09, sale $6, 749

09 YAMr: $7, 999

09 Can-am: $9, 300
Factory Discounts:
- $500
- $1,000(stage 1 performance kit)
- $1,000(parts & accessory account)
-$1,000-$3,000( tank/trailer wrap graphics, jersey, canopy, etc..)

09 Can am 4-$5,800 (depending on level of support)

+ $2000 (motor mods to 55-58hp)
+ $3000( PEP, FOX, ELKA, AXIS, shocks)

DS450 TOTAL: ($9,000 for one fast, light, good handling, reliable A-Class/Pro-AM race ready quad)( plus 1 mil USD contingency money)

Need more reliability info in the KTM and YFZr to make an accurate comparison. We know the 08 Can-am has had it's problems resolved in 09. Kawi has had it's problems. HON/SUK has it's problems but no improvements for 09 to speak of anyway. HON, SUK will have lower maintenance replacement cost due to availability more quads currently in the market.

[GE4x4]

Well the KTM dealers in my area are selling all the 09's under $10000. Plus KTM has a $1500 stimulas parts program to go with a new model. Don't for get that. Also, the Polaris grassroots program if excepted gives you a 09 Outlaw for over $2200 off msrp plus big discounts off parts and gear. So there are others out there giving out just as much as Can-am.:macho

[coryatver]

if can am wants to resolve there problem they will have to redesign the whole bike so they can move the radator so it isn't a roost guard

[TNT]

Originally posted by GE4x4
Well the KTM dealers in my area are selling all the 09's under $10000. Plus KTM has a $1500 stimulas parts program to go with a new model. Don't for get that. Also, the Polaris grassroots program if excepted gives you a 09 Outlaw for over $2200 off msrp plus big discounts off parts and gear. So there are others out there giving out just as much as Can-am.:macho

That's good can anyone qualify? Take $1500 and put it towards shocks & some motor work, so we have KTM $10,000(for some) minus $1500 plus $1500 more in shocks plus lets say $1000 in motor mods to get it to 55-58hp. $11, 000 to get it to where I have my DS $9,000(w/ 55-58 hp I got PEP shocks @ 3,000 included in that price)…I still got $2K to spend on my DS….Lets see, hydraulic clutch KTM has $120, Louvers for the radiator roost DS needs $150, I'm still a good $1500 ahead on the DS built both quads to pro-am level. Replacement parts will cost more on the KTM since it's a first year quad and KTM parts are expensive even bike parts are. Can-am this weekend is rolling a 18 wheeler into my city here in the middle of no where, Wichita, KS, unleashing 09's 450 mx/xc and Spyders for free test rides, they make a stong presence at races w/factory rigs promoting more and more sales. Don't know how well the KTM will do this year and what the issues are or parts availability, but as more DS quads are sold part cost should go down. Take a look at the any first year quad there will be issues, high part cost and availability issues, includes the Polaris…Hon, Suk has the rest beat to longevity right now but it won't last unless they do something to revolutionize the industry, especially Hon! All Hon is making money on is volume part sales right now(5 years worth of it) the rest want to take that market over and will. KTM IMO made a mistake putting out the most expensive quad in their first year, it's all around an expensive quad. Nice but expensive!

One good thing about the KTM and DS is the more factory designed by computer the better, it will be stronger (well not always) but lets say it's mass center and handling will be better for reliability than if left to after market companies, racers, or primitive knowledge. So to say you can take a cheaper Hon, Suk, Kawi, YAM, and design it yourself to factory specs and save money is wrong. I have seen the problems in doing that with steel frames and other OEM parts that don't hold up from a poor hybrid design, the after market geometry was not designed on the same computer model. In the future I'd personally rather put more money into a debugged factory race ready quad than get a cheaper one and try and build it myself…by doing so I will save money in the long haul, as I have with the DS, just doing engine mods, shocks, and a few other little things.

Another good thing Can-am has done which is unheard of is make available race team parts to amateurs. We'll be running some of the same parts the pro's do in the A-Class and 16-24. I never could understand why more factories don't do this since there is no way an amateur is going to keep up with a pro even with their race parts

BTW: Radiator up front is good and bad, good for cooling in drag, rec riding, bad for racing muddy conditions. Racers solve the problem with a cheap set of louvers.

[Mr. Big Time]

i got accepted for a ktm support and polaris support. KTM would sell me a bike for dealer cost, which was still over 9,000, and polaris would sell me theres for 5200. I declined both seeing as I already had my can-am built for racing, and they sent me the offers so late, ktm didnt call me untill the beg. of jan, and ploaris untill feb. I had already started the worcs series by then.

[GE4x4]

Originally posted by Mr. Big Time
i got accepted for a ktm support and polaris support. KTM would sell me a bike for dealer cost, which was still over 9,000, and polaris would sell me theres for 5200. I declined both seeing as I already had my can-am built for racing, and they sent me the offers so late, ktm didnt call me untill the beg. of jan, and ploaris untill feb. I had already started the worcs series by then.

I am a Polaris Grassroots guy, and I will not argue that they need to get these programs out a lot faster. They should be done no later then the end of Dec. If I was racing GNCC, I would not of got the quad before the first race. Hopefully they will do better next time.:macho

[k4f5x0r]

Originally posted by TNT1
That's good can anyone qualify? Take $1500 and put it towards shocks & some motor work, so we have KTM $10,000(for some) minus $1500 plus $1500 more in shocks plus lets say $1000 in motor mods to get it to 55-58hp. $11, 000 to get it to where I have my DS $9,000(w/ 55-58 hp I got PEP shocks @ 3,000 included in that price)…I still got $2K to spend on my DS….Lets see, hydraulic clutch KTM has $120, Louvers for the radiator roost DS needs $150, I'm still a good $1500 ahead on the DS built both quads to pro-am level. Replacement parts will cost more on the KTM since it's a first year quad and KTM parts are expensive even bike parts are. Can-am this weekend is rolling a 18 wheeler into my city here in the middle of no where, Wichita, KS, unleashing 09's 450 mx/xc and Spyders for free test rides, they make a stong presence at races w/factory rigs promoting more and more sales. Don't know how well the KTM will do this year and what the issues are or parts availability, but as more DS quads are sold part cost should go down. Take a look at the any first year quad there will be issues, high part cost and availability issues, includes the Polaris…Hon, Suk has the rest beat to longevity right now but it won't last unless they do something to revolutionize the industry, especially Hon! All Hon is making money on is volume part sales right now(5 years worth of it) the rest want to take that market over and will. KTM IMO made a mistake putting out the most expensive quad in their first year, it's all around an expensive quad. Nice but expensive!

One good thing about the KTM and DS is the more factory designed by computer the better, it will be stronger (well not always) but lets say it's mass center and handling will be better for reliability than if left to after market companies, racers, or primitive knowledge. So to say you can take a cheaper Hon, Suk, Kawi, YAM, and design it yourself to factory specs and save money is wrong. I have seen the problems in doing that with steel frames and other OEM parts that don't hold up from a poor hybrid design, the after market geometry was not designed on the same computer model. In the future I'd personally rather put more money into a debugged factory race ready quad than get a cheaper one and try and build it myself…by doing so I will save money in the long haul, as I have with the DS, just doing engine mods, shocks, and a few other little things.

Another good thing Can-am has done which is unheard of is make available race team parts to amateurs. We'll be running some of the same parts the pro's do in the A-Class and 16-24. I never could understand why more factories don't do this since there is no way an amateur is going to keep up with a pro even with their race parts

BTW: Radiator up front is good and bad, good for cooling in drag, rec riding, bad for racing muddy conditions. Racers solve the problem with a cheap set of louvers.



uhm. the kawasaki has an aluminum frame and probably is one of the best front end geometries out right now. its the closest to the 400ex which is very similar to the 250r... the god of the motocross world. im not bashing the can am because i like it and every quad has its issues. but as far as i know the kawasaki's STOCK havent had any problems.

i look at it this way. STOCK. all i care about is STOCK. the canam stock had its problems, the trx, the yfz, the ktm might have some problems im not aware of, im sure the yfzr will, the kawasaki has some dumb little annoying issues stock but nothing major.

kfx450 first year problems were the leaking gas tank which caused fires(fixed right away in recal) and a slow leak from somewhere in the wiring harness which lead to a dead battery over a few weeks of no running.

also there is a good reason i judge the bikes in stock condition.. if the bike is already unreliable when its stock, why would a built motor make it any better? if its over heating stock, then it will deffinatley over heat with alot moreponies. I beleive you should take the best stock bike, whatever may suit you(exactly what you and your racer are doing TNT props to you guys for doing it the right way) and building it around your needs.

Sorry i just had to post my opinion. i dont like seenig my bike bashed :o

[RATPACK Z400]

Id like to see the dyno,s on that ds450 doing 55-58 not saying your BSing just like to see ! the guy with the 400ex that faster thanktm,ds 450,s with no minor mods(you can put all the mods and still you would lose!) needs to stop with these BS 400ex story,s PLEASE! ktm,s a great deal! $10,000-11,000 only needs national kit $1500 revalve shocks for weight$200-300 unless your a top pro and get free shocks, but to buy honda,kawi,outlaw then go with all thats needed would cost more than KTM. Ds450 dont seem to have any reliably as of yet, they seem to brake down every race john N, rides it!And the reason no one,s racing the KTM,s,DS450,s is they have,nt proved them self,s anuff for racer,s to take chance on buying one yet! People stick to what they know is good in there minds really hard to change to the unknown!IMO.Oh yeah honda,s 450 suks compared to the rest for MX!

[ml450r]

Originally posted by RATPACK Z400
Id like to see the dyno,s on that ds450 doing 55-58 not saying your BSing just like to see ! the guy with the 400ex that faster thanktm,ds 450,s with no minor mods(you can put all the mods and still you would lose!) needs to stop with these BS 400ex story,s PLEASE! ktm,s a great deal! $10,000-11,000 only needs national kit $1500 revalve shocks for weight$200-300 unless your a top pro and get free shocks, but to buy honda,kawi,outlaw then go with all thats needed would cost more than KTM. Ds450 dont seem to have any reliably as of yet, they seem to brake down every race john N, rides it!And the reason no one,s racing the KTM,s,DS450,s is they have,nt proved them self,s anuff for racer,s to take chance on buying one yet! People stick to what they know is good in there minds really hard to change to the unknown!IMO.Oh yeah honda,s 450 suks compared to the rest for MX!

Thanks for your insight, Makes perfect sense.:confused:

[spanky101]

I wasnt trying to start anything in this thread, but where there are opinions will be controvery :blah: But everyone has their own opinions on bikes and what suits them. I personally feel the ktm is the best race ready bike on the market. For around 9.5k i have a bike with a stout STOCK internal motor. The canam program with all the rider support is absolutely PHENOMENAL, i wish more companies would do something like this, but ktm also has a support system which isnt as good as canam's but, any help is better then no help. Its all with what you can personally justify imo. I can personally spend 9.5k and feel comfortable with having a great machine out of the box and only doing minor tweaks for my preferences. Also the parts thing with ktm is a pretty weak argument imo, because this is almost identical bike motor since 07 the parts are very easy to get at a dealer, or if not at a dealer, one of the numerous ktm specific online shops and you will have the part within a couple days.

[spanky101]

Also, I reread your post TNT1, and your quad is only coming out at 9g if you get the highest level of support. No everyone here will be getting a ds450mx for 4k, most of us will be around the 5800 if not full retail id imagine? Sorry if i reading this wrong, been a long day and its a little late. haha Also, would you mind posting pictures of your bike, im very curious how it looks. I love seeing modded can ams and ktm's because not everyone has em unlike with hondas and others.

[THEMACHINIST]

what i would like to see it's a race with all the pro on a production bike or with minor mod like (full exhaust,air filter,tire axel,aarm and revalving shock only noting inside the motor)and we would be able to say after that wich one is better.cause i think all bike are great some need to be updated some need be check for there small trouble,because they a new.we can not say this atv is better because one pro guy win with or it not a good one because he break at the race,the pro guys modifie so much there atv and push the limite so much that the bike can blow at any time.honda give us the chance to race in quad suzuki bring us efi kawi bring us the reverse yam bring us the 4 stroke polaris indepandent suppention,ktm the most ready to race, can am with his new desing frame. they all bring someting good to the sport,so bashing any brand i think it bad cause we love that sport because of them.Too bad canondale is not there any more we would have one more atv on the gate.More brand we have more guy got the chance to be sponsored:)

only my 2 cents

[TNT]

Spanky, true I put the DS at lowest cost level as I did the KTM. A granny can qualify for the DS racer support program from what I hear it’s easy. Like I said KTM is selling at retail only around here, $11,300 + set-up, tax, and surcharges.

You can’t compare quads in stock form or at different cost levels. Most quads, and some more than others, are still primarily designing to the rec weekend warrior, dunes, etc. Most that don’t offer a base rec, mx, xc model(s) will suffer in the future as their Engineer’s compromise and try and design a low cost hybrid “race ready” machine with weak parts that are not race worthy. It’s the old rule, “you get what you pay for”! To make an accurate comparison the cost and build has to be set equal. Take the racer out the equation. If it’s mx your designing to then run a test rider on them all for about a year to collect reliability and maintenance info for each quad built to the same level (mx, xc, ft, class, weight, etc).

That’s why we continue to see failures on the race track, especially at the pro-level. You’d have to understand the design process to fully understand what I am saying. There are FEA and other computer design models. If Joe blow racer or even a top notch race team mechanic tries something different without going back to the model, that model is no good and problems begin. Until the day comes that Engineer’s design real race ready machines out of the factory, this dilemma will always exist. Were getting close but have a ways to go still. That’s just fact there is no argument about, you can not argue with logic and the computers that have been used to design the best machinery in the world for centuries. In the meantime, it’s just a matter of who will release the most hybrid designs and sell out to the mass population rec rider. Our sport is unique and demanding in many respects. The demands and requirements are high; light weight, high reliability, low maintenance, a vast array of racers, riding styles, many variables to design to and at a reasonable cost, very difficult!! The OEM;s don’t have large populations of racers to market to either hence recreational.

KTM, Can-am, by offering xc/mx models and investing in their future have the best chance if the numbers increase in the future and in this economy who knows? Although you may pay more you get closer to race ready out of the factory leaving less to primitive knowledge and chance, or racers trying to figure it out on their own. These quads when debugged as they evolve should offer a higher level of reliability and maintainability (once the volume of sales is up). I won’t be surprised next year if we see the other OEM’s breaking off different models so they too can focus the design on those markets, if the economic market allows it? Yes lots to look forward to in the future thanks to KTM, Can-am, setting a competitive model basis for others to align to. I bet Hon has something up it's sleeve in 2010. Polaris will be interesting too.

Another aspect we have not considered is depreciation, as EFI and aluminum frame technology sweeps the industry, the models without it will depreciate faster. It’s supply and demand, in the next several years as EFI evolves to more efficient closed looped systems like auto’s, the carb will become obsolete and depreciate fast! I tired to put a closed loop PC 5 auto tuner on my quad but it won’t be available for a few more months, so I got PC3 yesterday(will sell soon lol). There’s nothing like PC 5 no carb can compete, no way! First year quads will depreciate fast too as the DS did. Not all fast, but some will more….. Most are used for field testing and R&D, happens in all industries, auto, aircraft, and those first units are sold at a discount and depreciate faster.

I’m not out to bash any quad, year, make or model, they all have strengths, weaknesses, purpose in the evolution of our sport, just looking at the pro’s am con’s. Even the DS has issues, some big like the clutch, flywheel, and the big air motor head is hard to deal with, valve train a work horse and heavy.

I’ll post some pics of our 09 DS soon, everything should be in this week then we start assembling and testing. It’s been a long and bouncy road. Started by having to make a lot of things that later became available to us by the race team. We did not get in on the program, purchased it too early but still got a great dealer support cost program we could not refuse. I’m guessing we’ll see at least 55 hp at a very light weight which is key!!!. I’ll post dyno results soon. We’re blackening it out should be cool and fast!!! Lots of hard work, time, money, and patience….I’m hoping it holds up! Can’t be any worse than our past 5 years with two Yams…

Sorry another long one! :D What I live for, interesting!

[spanky101]

This is a pretty interesting convo and im really enjoying it! Im also looking forward to seeing your DS all done up and ready to go TNT!

Quick question about the canam support, do you fill it out and after your accepted/declined are you given the discount price of the quad or what? Sorry, i havent looked into it much because i really havent looked into the canam much lately. Thanks for all the help guys

[TNT]

Yeah I would fill out the form fax it in get accepted prior to buying so you see the level of support first. Then negoitiate for everything you can get! :D

[spanky101]

Hahaha Thats exactly what i was hoping to hear! Im still sorta unsettled on a quad... dang the choices!