Titanium a-arms

[altimpact]

Hi, quys and qals. Dan with Alternative impact here. I am the owner of the company, and have building Titanium suspension parts for snowmobiles for 9 years. Just thought i would join this forum to see what the interest would be for Titanium in the ATV world. Any help or comments would be welcome. If anyone is interested in knowing the reputation of the company, you can check any of the snowmobile forums such as www.snowestforums.com, dootalk and several others. Thanks again, and looking forward to the feed back. Dan

Any new a-arm to be made for the ATV industry is nice because it adds to variety and competition. How much would it cost?

[altimpact]

Thanks for the reply. Most arm kit for the sleds run around $800.00 and i dont see why the atv arms would be much more.

[altimpact]

What really drew my interest was i did a search on titanium a-arms for atv's and came up with zero. The arms were all cro-moly and ranged from $600.00 to $1600.00. Seems extremely high for steel.

[Extremeracer167]

Lonestar used to make titanium parts, i think their big thing was their titanium chassis. i dont think it ever caught on becuase it was so dang expensive. That and if it did ever crack....its hard to find someone to weld it.

[altimpact]

That is a drawback of ti, but usually, if its welded right and it cracks, something has happened making the crack the least of the problems. But i do see your point.

[Langbolt]

Hey Dan....Welcome

I have upper a-arms made of TI & Subframe on both, my hybrid & 250r are TI.

Didn't go TI on the lowers because we couldn't get thicker walled tubing to take the abuse.

It's incredible the weight difference between Steel (beit mild steel or 4130 chromoly)

So far I haven't broken the welds or the tubes.

Do you have a website so we can check out your products ?

What sizes of tubing (diameter & wall thickness) do you use for the sleds ?

Cheers,

John

[altimpact]

Hi, John. Thanks for the positive feed back! The web site is www.alternativeimpact.com Most of what i use on the sleds is 7/8'' with .045 wall and 1''with .051 wall. I can get the 1'' with thicker wall, but sure exactly how much thicker. It seem that the atv's take a bit more abuse that sleds.

[motofreak2772]

cant you get titanium a arms from walsh?
Its super expensive and bends easily. and it doesnt even save that much weight. I think its just something for pros who can get that stuff for free or rich people who have nothing better to spend it on. It would be cool to see some more advancements in ATV technology so anything that makes a quad lighter or faster and still holds up is a good thing.

[altimpact]

Thats exactly what i am shooting for. Check out the introduction on the home page of the site. I would like to change the way everyone thinks about being able to afford ti. Yes it can be costly, but doesnt have to be out of range. The process in which you weld ti is very time consuming, and the material is also costly, but we still manage to put products out that are quality. I have found that you can build a very sucessful buisness on honesty, quality and reasonable prices without taking people for all they have.

[Extremeracer167]

Originally posted by motofreak2772
cant you get titanium a arms from walsh?
Its super expensive and bends easily. and it doesnt even save that much weight. I think its just something for pros who can get that stuff for free or rich people who have nothing better to spend it on. It would be cool to see some more advancements in ATV technology so anything that makes a quad lighter or faster and still holds up is a good thing.

not to pick, but the weight savings of Ti is HUGE, and the main problem is it DOESNT bend. Its so hard that its almost to brittle. There is no give in it and thats what causes it to crack more. Atleast thats what i was told by Lonestar. The frame that i personally got to look over and pick it up weighed only 20-25 lbs and that was an entire quad frame. It is what there setup was for the TT quads. I know that they can get away with using lighter material for TT, and thats the reason they used it.

[altimpact]

There are over 100 different grades of ti. I have no idea why. Ti is really quite spongy, and acts as a natural shock absorber to a point. It will bend and has a great memory, but as you said, will get to a point, if taken there, and fail. If you take grade 2 (comercially pure) ti, it is very malible and can be bent to extreme angles, but has very little strength. So really it all comes down to the grade.

[motofreak2772]

Originally posted by Extremeracer167
not to pick, but the weight savings of Ti is HUGE, and the main problem is it DOESNT bend. Its so hard that its almost to brittle. There is no give in it and thats what causes it to crack more. Atleast thats what i was told by Lonestar. The frame that i personally got to look over and pick it up weighed only 20-25 lbs and that was an entire quad frame. It is what there setup was for the TT quads. I know that they can get away with using lighter material for TT, and thats the reason they used it.

Ok but how much wait can you really save in the top a arms?
And I thought Ti was really brittle too but someone who had some Ti a arms said they got bent very easily after one crash. and i dont think they cracked or broke. so idk the main thing is i dont think its reliable enough for the price.

[altimpact]

I agree, ti is not for the guy that is just happy to get to ride every weekend, and works from payday to payday, but it can be just as reliable as steel if built right. With the sled upper arms you can lose just under 1lb. Not a real bargain. The real savings come with the lowers. An average kit of four can save 7-9 lbs. Any time you add strength to a structure of the same configuration using different metals, the stronger unit will be more brittle. Thats the down fall. Its all a matter of grades and wall thickness. I'm wondering about all those factors in the arms you mentioned, because really, it all makes a difference. This so far has really been interesting and some great concerns and questions.

[Langbolt]

Hey Dan,

Have a look here:

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=388006

This is a TI chassis 250r....Do you have access to a good bender ?

:devil:

[altimpact]

Looks real nice. The one thing that jumped out at me was the discoloring in and around the welds. Some of my early stuff was like that before i new any different. The welds should be all silver. A full chassis like that would be a fun job. I

[altimpact]

wrong key. Anyway, i do have nice bender. Not CNC, but will bend 1'' x .051 to nearly a 90 degree before it kinks. Thats not an easy task with grade 9. I avoid any bends when possible, because it causes the tube to stretch and thin out on the outer side. Thanks for the reply!

[RATPACK Z400]

Dirtwheels If Im not mistaken had a yamaha450 with TI frame,arms and swing and the frame was around $6000Alone, then more for arms,swingarm, steering stem all in TI,And I think lonestar was the builder? but If I could afford It Id have it.Imagine the weight /power ratio that thing would fly! not that it would be aloud to race, it would be agains,t rules but fun play quad! And anyone that broke Ti parts must be doing something wrong.

[altimpact]

That would be interesting to see. Thats where its at in the rec. industry. Light weight means horsepower, quicker excelleration, etc. Power to weight for sleds is huge, not to mention being able to throw everything around without being 6'+ 200lbs. Puts the fun factor back into something that may be slightly big for a smaller rider.

[derbyking]

there is defintly a market in the drag world for affordable Ti parts from a builder with some experiance using it,i would concentrate your efforts toward the dragrace side if things though,youll have less issues with breakage and customers trying to break it :p

[altimpact]

I absolutely understand. I get at least one a year that really cant afford ti arms in the first place, but buy them anyway, then end up hitting a stump, rock, etc. and give you the " it just broke going down the trail" trick. On the other hand though, 99% of these guys realize this stuff isn't bullet proof and tell you straight up what happened, thank you for building a great product and come back every year. Thanks for the input!

[quad97]

You're located in Livingston huh. I go to school in Bozeman. You will have to let me know if you start making atv components and need a KTM for mockup. I wouldn't mind having a Ti steering stem. Stock one is a nice lightweight aluminum unit but I would like it to be a little stronger. Would the arms come with new ball joints or use stock ones to keep the cost down?

[derbyking]

im a montana boy also,im in laurel

[altimpact]

That works for me, and thanks for the offer. It sounds like ktm is one of the more popular brand, and thats usually the best place to start. If you would shoot me an e-mail and i will save it for future contact. Thanks again.

[protraxrptr17]

Dan, thanks for the interest in our sport. I think you should go ahead with it. I'm also a fabricator and machinist and have handmade most of the parts on my bike. I would love to see some fresh ideas come into our sport. I think you should market to the motocross side of it as well. 4130 arms are pretty heavy. Of course 7 or 8 pounds doesn't sound like much, but you gotta do all you can. If you can design a swingarm that can hold up for a reasonable amount of time you could really save some weight. Keep us posted on what's going on.
Zeb Beard

[altimpact]

Thanks for the input Zeb. Things are kicking into high gear already on this thing. I have several guys very interested, and the response from this forum has been nothing short of exciting. Because of the number of e-mails i have recieved, it will be hard for me to keep everyone up to speed any way other than the web site. www.alternativeimpact.com I will keep it as updated as possible. The ti tube is in the process of being ordered. This takes about 6 weeks before i see it in the shop. The site will stay the same, but my e-mail address will change probably by the end of the week. That info will be on the home page of the site or everyone can use the forum here. The 7-8 pound savings mentioned was on the sleds. I expect to be above that by i hope 4-5 lbs. A guy just doesnt want to get a black eye by using thin wall tube. Just need to get a group of people and committ. I would invite all these local guys that havent seen my products in their hands to stop by the shop for look. ( guy from Laurel and Bozeman)

[elementryder]

i wouldnt see anything wrong with making ti subframes, stems and upper A-arms, in fact its been done time and time again already, along with ti hubs. id be willing to be a mx test dummy :devil:

[motofreak2772]

the only thing wrong with them is the price...

[EXKid416]

It's all about application really. I work at a Honda dealer as a mechanic and we do on average 100k a year in high performance. Having focused a lot for flat track quads and dirt trackers, I think a lot about your mission plan will depends on certain applications of our beloved sport.

First off, no woods rider will dare buy any serious parts. You'll get some MX guys, especially serious ones. As noted before, anything on a drag quad can be lightened, it only has to go in a straight line. TT bikes and quads can always use weight savings, and they will handle very good if you lighten up the swingarm and lower a-arms. Lightening up any unsprung weight will give the best response in steering on race quads and bikes.

I think if you make a quality product and have decent prices then its like anything else in this industry; someone will buy it. You should try to make some engine parts, I wouldnt mind Ti connecting rods for my Ducati street bike =)

[THEMACHINIST]

I'm living in canada and for us there is no restriction for TI so it could be a good market for you.I own a can am and it's already a light atv but 1lbs it's always good to loose and if you are saying we could loose 4to5 pound with the Aarms WOW go for it.Here we race on ice so your product would be perfect for us.I am maybe dreaming but if you could do a axel it would be a huge weight save.

It's alway good to have some one who is from a nother side of the fence and bring some new ideal for the sport

keep the good work my freind:macho

[altimpact]

Thanks for the support! I have a great market in canada for the sled parts, in fact 70% of everything this year went to Canada. Just to keep everyone updated, the tube for the atv arms is expected to arrive at the end of the month. I will be working with possibly two quys from this forum. Pretty excited to see what comes of this. I see you have a pretty detailed site. Looks great. May be able to work out some sort of dealership program. Keep in touch. Thanks again!

[born2ride14]

is it possible you can make ti tie rods?

[altimpact]

Not a problem.

[born2ride14]

how much would those set me back?

[altimpact]

I would need to know the total length, diameter, and what type of an end they need to have. I'm assuming they would be a threaded end for a heim.

[born2ride14]

They would be 13 inches long, maybe 1/2 around and they would be rods not tubes with threads on each end

[motofreak2772]

Hey if you start to get this thing going you should definatley do strength tests comparing your quality to some of the bigger brands like LSR and walsh. Subframes sound like a good idea for mx if they dont break.

[quadracer85st]

i think there is a big potential for mx riders. we are always trying to cut down weight and get tougher parts. a ti swinger, anti vibe stem and a arms would save alot of weight but it has to hold up to mx abuse. i would be all over a ti swinger for mx if it would hold up no questions asked. to my knowledge there isnt an aftermarket mx swinger that is as light as the stocker for most atvs. the rear of quads are heavy especially mx riders using an after market axle. but i understand this would be very difficult to do.

[altimpact]

Too 300maniac, rods would run you about $75.00 each.On the swing arms, i am working with derbyking on one for i think is for drag. Not totally sure, check with him. He will know all the details. I'm just the fab guy. Thanks for the mail!