got the April dirtwheels, anyone suprised?

[hotshotgoal30]

they picked the new yamaha 450R. what a shocker. seems like every test or shootout i read they pick the yamaha wether its the raptor or the grizzly. they went on to say the DS it to exotic for their taste? lol they also said the ktm isnt much better than the rest, but carrys a $12,000 price tag. i cant wait till some of these writers or testers retire they need some new people to mix it up. lol perferably ones that didnt grow up riding yamahas

it is not about growing up riding yamaha...it is about how much $$$ yamaha throws at the mag...their reviews are good if you read between the lines and don't look at who wins. decide what you want from a machine and read their descriptions of the choices without caring who won...

i just got my issue today, haven't looked at it yet...but how about that new 1700 cc yamaha that is coming out...that looks bad arse....:cool:

[TWISTED]

I remember when it was always a Honda winning the shootouts....

[300ex_#387]

Originally posted by speedyquad
it is not about growing up riding yamaha...it is about how much $$$ yamaha throws at the mag...their reviews are good if you read between the lines and don't look at who wins. decide what you want from a machine and read their descriptions of the choices without caring who won...

i just got my issue today, haven't looked at it yet...but how about that new 1700 cc yamaha that is coming out...that looks bad arse....:cool:

You know thats a joke right.......?

[gbcap]

the yamaha grizzly wins the shoot outs because it is one bad *** utility. it is not the best in all categories but it is the highest average. it wins handling and comfort bar none against any other quad i have ridden and i have ridden most utes out there.

Originally posted by 300ex_#387
You know thats a joke right.......?

notice the :cool: smiley...

i aint that stupid...i have seen many many april fools machines from them...

[bwkcobra03]

I got the same mag. Too bad the yamaha is 405 pounds. LOL

I am waiting for a nice article about our ds's.


The manufacture the spends the most on advertising and pays off the magazine will get all the hype. lol

too bad the can ams 420? is wet weight so thats not bad actually

[MarcM]

420lbs seems high. No pun intended.

Dry Weight is 345lbs.

It has a 3 Gallon Gas Tank. When Full would add 18.45lbs.

I am not sure, but lets say a gallon of water in the radiator. Adds 8.3lbs.

Then Engine Oil, Brake Fluid...I dont know what do you say? 5 to 10lbs?

So Total would be less than 380 lbs.

How did Dirt Wheels come up with 420lbs? Sounds like they took a 420 break before writing the article.

[ProspectorJim]

Originally posted by MarcM
420lbs seems high. No pun intended.

Dry Weight is 345lbs.

It has a 3 Gallon Gas Tank. When Full would add 18.45lbs.

I am not sure, but lets say a gallon of water in the radiator. Adds 8.3lbs.

Then Engine Oil, Brake Fluid...I dont know what do you say? 5 to 10lbs?

So Total would be less than 380 lbs.

How did Dirt Wheels come up with 420lbs? Sounds like they took a 420 break before writing the article.

that's the dry weight of the base model, the mx is right around 360 dry, still wouldn't add up to 420lbs though.

[bwkcobra03]

The 09 Yamaha yfz has a dry weight of 405 pounds and the ds450 has a dry weight of 340 pounds the ds450x has a dry weight of 357 pounds the ds450x xc has a dry weight of 360 pounds and the ds450x mx has a dry weight of 359 pounds these are all much lighter than the yfz. But you can get every part that you need for the yfz in 1 day so maybe it is better to get an atv that has parts avalible. I have been waiting 3 months to get the parts for my recall's done. :(


2008 DS450X FOR SALE LOW HOURS ADULT RIDDEN

[Quadevil]

Originally posted by bwkcobra03
The 09 Yamaha yfz has a dry weight of 405 pounds and the ds450 has a dry weight of 345 pounds the ds450x has a dry weight of 357 pounds the ds450x xc has a dry weight of 360 pounds and the ds450x mx has a dry weight of 359 pounds these are all mych lighter than the yfz. But you can get every part that you need for the yfz in 1 day so maybe it is better to get an atv that has parts avalible. I have been waiting 3 months to get the parts for my recall's done. :(


2008 DS450X FOR SALE LOW HOURS ADULT RIDDEN

The yfzR has 405lbs wet not dry. The X MX is 1lbs lighter than the X XC?
I mean, the X MX has chromoly a-arms (not AL like the XC), it's wider front and rear and still manages to be lighter?

[GE4x4]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Quadevil
The yfzR has 405lbs wet not dry. The X MX is 1lbs lighter than the X XC?
I mean, the X MX has chromoly a-arms (not AL like the XC), it's wider front and rear and still manages to be lighter? [/QUOTE

Tires. Mx are much lighter then XC.

[OzLinc]

Originally posted by Quadevil
The yfzR has 405lbs wet not dry. The X MX is 1lbs lighter than the X XC?
I mean, the X MX has chromoly a-arms (not AL like the XC), it's wider front and rear and still manages to be lighter?

I was wondering that??????.......seems a bit funny. Those XC wheels and tires must weigh a lot.......

Yamaha have always talked through their ***** when it comes to weights.

[MarcM]

Originally posted by bwkcobra03
The 09 Yamaha yfz has a dry weight of 405 pounds and the ds450 has a dry weight of 345 pounds the ds450x has a dry weight of 357 pounds the ds450x xc has a dry weight of 360 pounds and the ds450x mx has a dry weight of 359 pounds these are all mych lighter than the yfz. But you can get every part that you need for the yfz in 1 day so maybe it is better to get an atv that has parts avalible. I have been waiting 3 months to get the parts for my recall's done. :(


2008 DS450X FOR SALE LOW HOURS ADULT RIDDEN

You can still ride your quad before the recall parts are installed.

Unless, you are a super hardcore rider that has been beating on your DS 450X for a Year.

It took about 4 weeks for the parts to come in for me also. But dealer said I could ride while I waited.

Still stinks it takes Can-Am that long to get those parts out for you.

[ProspectorJim]

Originally posted by MarcM
You can still ride your quad before the recall parts are installed.

Unless, you are a super hardcore rider that has been beating on your DS 450X for a Year.

It took about 4 weeks for the parts to come in for me also. But dealer said I could ride while I waited.

Still stinks it takes Can-Am that long to get those parts out for you.

He broke his clutch, so the riding is pretty much done until he gets the parts.

[bwkcobra03]

I am just upset that I cant get it fixed quickly. I am not a hard core rider and didn't beat the **** out of my ds. I only have about 20 hours on it. I just got it for Christmas. I never broke my Banshee or my 89ltr500 or my z400 that my wife still rides. The only thing I had to do to my other quads was change pistons and rings. I think I had the orignal clutches in all of them.


I know the ds is lighter, faster, stops, and handels better than all the all rest in it's class. BRP really needs to get on the ball if they want to stay a float in an economy like this.

BRP jusr make your parts faster so we ar not inconveninced.


And the yfz is still too heavy @ 405 pounds

[TNT]

Grass is always greener on the other side of the fence? We have owned two YAMs since the first design came out in 04 and I don't care if they redesigned the piece of junk or not I will NEVER own another lol. They had to "totally" redesign it since it was not good!...and now that it's a "Totally New" design the learning curve starts over for the most part!....and in this competive market the new parts may be hard to get a hold of too, most OEM's need sales volume to keep parts on the shelve.

We still fight on a daily basis to keep the one YAM we still have together as a practice bike and hope it makes the race this weekend since our DS is not ready. I have put a ton of money is to maintaining YAM I hate the word YAM….lol! The OEM parts have the worse design, the triangular frame even when made out of steel needs lots of gusseting(we cracked 3 w/gussets), let's hope their aluminum frame differs? I'd rather wait longer for quality BRP parts that last then get junk YAM parts fast. Now mind you I am not saying BRP in it's first year 08 did not have issues it has addressed in 09, but relatively speaking the reliability and maintainability compared to YAM and HON and a few others over the past five years is incredible, and if you consider the push and program incentives to sales volume compared to YAM and HON this issue of not being able to get a hold of BRP parts fast won't last long, end of 09 at best. While Hon has done nothing to improve or promote it's quad and do little for their pro's, YAM is still questionable and backing out of racing(no factory rigs at the races) do little for pro's and ams too, Can am full steam ahead in 09 w/ programs and factory support, contingeny, like no other for am's and pro's.

Read the writing on the wall…..Can Am!
:cool: :D

[Justwin]

An 09 Xmx weighs in at 400lbs (182kg) with half a tank of fuel, with a 52.7% bias towards the front according to my corner weight scales.

Dont forget that over the base model you have - nerfs, heel guards, wider axle, steel a-arms, beadlocks, longer stem with more elaborate bar clamps, bigger body shocks etc. I t all adds up!

I had thought that it might have been lighter but then again I never had my race prepped YFZ on the scales - I do know that it was way heavier though by the time I had added the gusset kit, 6 point subframe, axle, a-arms, nerfs etc etc

[TNT]

I'm going to try and weigh our YFZ tomorrow with a bunch of after market parts......I could compare that weight to our stock DS since both are configured to handle the same racer(it will be much higher).....Point is it don't matter we can't compare weight unless the quads are at least configured for the same rider or class(IE: Pro), otherwise it's mis-leading. If you want to compare stock quads for recreation riding ok, but check the cost per pound too of the show room floor. :D Of course the more you pay the less after market parts are needed in theory and the less after market weight you have to add. In most cases, the factory can optimize the weight and after market(not always) will produce more weight and in locations that may not be desirable to the center of gravity and handling of the quad.

[ProspectorJim]

Did they add nerfbars to the yfzr, that'll add more than 10lbs depending on what kind you get.

[bwkcobra03]

I was looking at the yfz at the dealer and it did not have nerf bars, skid plates it was stripped nothing on it.

[choadium]

It doesn't surprise me that they picked the new YFZ over the rest. It's a really nice machine. I'm not just saying that because I bought one either. It may have it's share of problems like my DS did, but that's a chance that I'm willing to take. I wish that I still had my DS, but the fact is, mine was a lemon. :mad: My dealer didn't help with that fact either. I might still have it if they were more cooperative. I guess they "forced" me to spend my money elsewhere and the Yammy dealer was across the street...

[ThePhantomRider]

Look we all know the bias the magazines have towards Yamaha...That's a moot point. What we have to understand here is the very reason we have a selection to choose from, there is no clear cut best quad as that is a wholly speculative issue....
Arguments for and against any quad is easy to create...Can-Am is the most advanced quad...It' is too advanced....Honda is archaic...Honda can be built to be a winner...KTM is race ready out of the box...KTM is expensive...Suzuki has the most MX championships over the past few years....Suzuki is a fat tank of a quad..you get the picture, so where one quad is a lemon to one, it's lemonade to another.

TPR

[tach13]

its like talking religion, your never going to change someone's mind or convince them your right and there wrong. just ride what works for your preference's.

[TNT]

I just got to see one of those YFZr's at lunch all stripped down, all I got say is good luck with that frame it's no where near as strong as the DS....It's main cross members are c-channels [ where the DS has rectangular [] .......As you see the rectangular is much, much stronger in bending.

[hotshotgoal30]

so needless to say it sounds like maybe after a little while of racing the reports will start coming in of people tweeking frames on the yamaha. which seems impossible for something like that to happen. lol its a perfect quad

[TNT]

Got a chance to look deeper at the YFZr today at lunch and it gets worse. Here’s a breath of fresh air for DS owners….

I found some rectangular frame sections like the DS but they were sand castings known for poor strength. C-sections are terrible this has on it and sand castings are worse. We only use them in aircraft for what we call “secondary structure” like toilet paper holders. Primary structure like this no way! And especially out of aluminum. What were the YAM engineers smoking, YAMAWEED? Lol!

Reason sand castings or any casting are weak is because of the porous surface they create. The extruded sections like on the DS are much stronger. An extrusion is ramming material through a die, a casting is using sand to form material around it or matched dies called investment castings.

To make matters worse look at the pictures….see the bends in the casted aluminum…those bends are asking for trouble, asking for bending to occur. Look at the lower arms where the majority of load comes into the front frame, see the down turn gull wing design….then look at a 09 DS it bends in a manner to get load to the frame better, more of s-shape with reinforcements at the turns for the shock mounts and shock dampening to absorb load at the bends.

Look at the big structural hole where the engine is, no cross(forward to rear or up and down beams)....bad!

Oh and then they put a lower steel skid member, well hard steel and soft aluminum don't mix 9 times out of ten not on frames.

The spindle on the YFZr has a huge hole for the axle the DS has no hole. Holes make structure weak.

Then to top it off the YFZr frame is bolted together with nuts and bolts, small ones 3/16, nuts and bolts can break loose especially on a frame and the nut and bolt is no where near as strong as the huck bolt aircraft fastener, the DS using large ones, 3/8 in diameter. The huck bolt has to be drilled out and is permanent, there are no threads.

This YFZr frame is a disaster, I would not let an advanced racer run it, too dangerous! It’s a recreational product that needs a lot of work to make race ready. My question is where is the MX and XC versions? I’d race their old steel frame with gussets before this.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/YFZr1.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/YFZr2.jpg

My buddy and mechanic test quad, He has a pipe, intake, cams, port, high compression piston, got around 48 whp, about the same as a DS with the same mods.

[griffin32]

I have a yfzr and my friend has an 09 x mx ds and the only thing that seems to better on the ds is the suspension its like landing on pillows very nice for stock but the feel of the bike is so different it just really depends on what you like

[griffin32]

I have a yfzr and my friend has an 09 x mx ds and the only thing that seems to better on the ds is the suspension its like landing on pillows very nice for stock but the feel of the bike is so different it just really depends on what you like

[X400EX]

Good post Terry, happy to ear that! :)

[matt14c]

I'm not doubting anything you say tnt i dont know shiot about all that you said but Yam has been pioneers in both atv and dirt bike frames for years. Im sure they wouldnt risk anything with putting out a sub par chasis. I could be wrong and hope I am but what they do this year that works the other companies will be doing the same 2-3 years from now.

[hotshotgoal30]

how so 2-3 years when the ds already beat them to the punch?

Originally posted by matt14c
I'm not doubting anything you say tnt i dont know shiot about all that you said but Yam has been pioneers in both atv and dirt bike frames for years. Im sure they wouldnt risk anything with putting out a sub par chasis. I could be wrong and hope I am but what they do this year that works the other companies will be doing the same 2-3 years from now.

[Quadevil]

Originally posted by matt14c
I'm not doubting anything you say tnt i dont know shiot about all that you said but Yam has been pioneers in both atv and dirt bike frames for years. Im sure they wouldnt risk anything with putting out a sub par chasis. I could be wrong and hope I am but what they do this year that works the other companies will be doing the same 2-3 years from now.

This yfzR is a very good quad but it brings nothing new. AL frame the DS already has that, it's not the most powerful also (ktm is), electronic injection is nothing new too (Canondalle, LTR, DS...)...

[griffin32]

the yfzr frame has seen no problems and has not been a concern of anyone else that owns one and even though it may not be bringing anything new it has a proven motor and almost everything on it was tested drastically for years with the raptor 700

[GE4x4]

Well Quad mag just did there 450 mx shootout, and DS guys won't like this article either. They gave the win to the KTM. The only complaint was the price. Next was the YFZ450R, then the LTR, and finally the DS450 X MX. There price for the 450r wasn't right as they had it at $7999, in which they are now $8299. The KTM prices have come down where I'm seeing dealers selling at around $10000. So the $3500 price differnce they have in the mag is much closer to 1/2 that at $1700. It was a good read and they broke it down to many catorgories. The big complaint fro the DS was lack of low end power, and front shock valving.

[TNT]

I've done enough trade studies in my life to know these articles are misleading are not worth the paper they are written on and are just to sell magazines. Also got to wonder what OEM is paying them the most to say the things they do.

In reality there are a lot of playing fields quads have to be put on equally to make a comparison. Lots of data that’s not even available yet to compare to. The KTM and YFZr has practically none!

First order of business in any trade study like this is cost and weight, or cost per pound per factors of reliability and maintainability. Take each quad and set the build and cost equal, or build them to where they compete in the same class, same rider, run them for a year in several environments(mx, xc, dunes, drags, rec) to collect the data needed for comparison.

Up front pretty hard to compete with the DS with a Racer Support Program that gives qualified racers(and it's easy to qualify) factory incentives $500 off(dealer more), $1,000 parts account, $1000 stage 1 performance kit( pipe, louvers,etc), decal set, trailer wrap, canopy, gear, apparel, race contingencies, to factor down the cost and make it more sales competitive. With the money saved one can EASILY take care of the low end torque issue and put top shocks like FOX, ElKA's, PEP,s AXIS on, no KYB's to equal out cost to competitor's making the DS win any real "shootout" hands down! Do the math.

DS450 has three models, KTM one with different engines(450, 505 SX, catering the 505 to the dune rider), YFZr one, HON one, most one, they all design to something different. The OEM's with only one model and not a base, MX, XC, are still putting out Hybrid's to sell to the mass population recreational, dune rider, not racers! With that intent those models will not be designed with more of the racer in mind, the integrity will not be as high, now and especially in the future in this new enviroment. Can-am as it evolves it's design will make the separation better than the rest and win the race. Why? Because they put more capitol investment up front into the future. It takes more money investment to develop separate models with differ a-arms, etc…..

Another largely neglected comparison and investment most are interested in is reliability and maintainability, which in the long haul can add or reduce cost. Like I said, little info is available on the KTM and newly designed YFZr, so we can't do this comparison for at least another year, can't compare to their bikes either, different models, and in some cases like the YFZ previous models. What good does it do to buy this great powerful quad off the show room floor that I have to put lots of money in to make race ready, reliable, and maintainable, or that I can't find parts for. Also part cost and availability, first years quads may cost more to maintain depends on thier reliability since there is not enough volume in sales to make it worthwhile producing mass quantities to lower part cost, holds true for the OEM and After-Market industry.

Weight per power would be a good comparisons, handling, mass centers, , etc...

At best these shoots outs lack info and neglect key comparisons, "stock outs" that have no comparison to one another from a recreational or race standpoint, more so they lack information and are misleading.

There ya go a real TNT 450 Shootout…tell it like it is! :blah:

[Quadevil]

Originally posted by TNT1
[B]DS450 has three models, KTM one with different engines(450, 505 SX, catering the 505 to the dune rider)

I couldn't understand here. Were you talking about DS 450 "mx" models or all models (including XC)? and the comparison with KTM you were only thinking in the SX model?

Thanks

[TNT]

Originally posted by Quadevil
I couldn't understand here. Were you talking about DS 450 "mx" models or all models (including XC)? and the comparison with KTM you were only thinking in the SX model?

Thanks

Didn't word it that great, sorry! KTM is actually doing a better job than most or as good as the Can-am by offering different models, in that respect they will be able to focus & offer better quads in the future for that rider base.

[crixal]

looks like the ds finished last in the Quad magazine too. anyways, i raced a yfz450r today w/ full hmf, trinity intake, and pc5 and tied it once & beat it by a quad another. the 08 w/ the same mods other than the pc5 was faster than the yfzr. he let me ride it and i must say it is a very nice ride, the power comes on great, and handles great. i honestly liked it way better than my ds.

[Sick0]

yamaha has the best lineup of any manufacture.... He new yfzr has all the features we want at a price we will pay for... Its has the best fit for the most people.... The can-am seems like quality doesn't compare... power seem low on power is has a weird power band... the ktm is sweet, but is not in most poeples price range... Just remember not everybody races, not everybody is hardcore atv's...for 8000 you pick up a sweet little package deal that everybody would love....

Same thing about the raptor... probly the best allround, any body can handle quad....

They made the first solid 450 and really made the 450 class,, they made the first utv and also made that class.... the grizzley has alway been a strong contender... The banshee is been the king of the dunes for decades.... the blaster been been a decent cheap quad....

Yamaha has deserver been the best all around company over the years...

[Sick0]

yamaha has the best lineup of any manufacture.... He new yfzr has all the features we want at a price we will pay for... Its has the best fit for the most people.... The can-am seems like quality doesn't compare... power seem low on power is has a weird power band... the ktm is sweet, but is not in most poeples price range... Just remember not everybody races, not everybody is hardcore atv's...for 8000 you pick up a sweet little package deal that everybody would love....

Same thing about the raptor... probly the best allround, any body can handle quad....

They made the first solid 450 and really made the 450 class,, they made the first utv and also made that class.... the grizzley has alway been a strong contender... The banshee is been the king of the dunes for decades.... the blaster been been a decent cheap quad....

Yamaha has deserver been the best all around company over the years...

[OzLinc]

Your job on the Yamaha help desk is safe.

[hotshotgoal30]

dude no offense but your argument holds no water. the raptor 700 anyone can handle? i dont think so. alot of people "think" they can but end up selling it cause they cant. how can you say the yfzr has the best fit for most people? how the hell would you know? lol maybe it fits you right but not "most" people. and quality doesnt compare on the can-am? wtf kind of statement is that? can-am uses top notch stuff. they built an aluminum frame before yamaha. the girizzly has been around for awhile but i do belive the polaris sportsman series has been the best selling. and yeah the banshee was sick but honda and their 250r's were strong contenders in the dunes and on the track. and you say that yamaha has been the best all around because they build a machine for everyone of every size? so has honda so has polaris for a long time.

Originally posted by Sick0
yamaha has the best lineup of any manufacture.... He new yfzr has all the features we want at a price we will pay for... Its has the best fit for the most people.... The can-am seems like quality doesn't compare... power seem low on power is has a weird power band... the ktm is sweet, but is not in most poeples price range... Just remember not everybody races, not everybody is hardcore atv's...for 8000 you pick up a sweet little package deal that everybody would love....

Same thing about the raptor... probly the best allround, any body can handle quad....

They made the first solid 450 and really made the 450 class,, they made the first utv and also made that class.... the grizzley has alway been a strong contender... The banshee is been the king of the dunes for decades.... the blaster been been a decent cheap quad....

Yamaha has deserver been the best all around company over the years...

[TNT]

Originally posted by OzLinc
Your job on the Yamaha help desk is safe.

That’s funny! It be more secure at the parts dept speaking of which I need a new oil gear for mine third one blown in the motor in the past three years. Can't wait to split the case and clean out all the shaving's AGAIN!! Oh I'll need a new cylinder, piston, head gasket, maybe lots more AGAIN TOO!! God knows what else the shaving's ruined!!!

I'll stop there spare the guys job at the help desk the economy is pretty ruff! Thanks Yamahahahaha! I apreciate the dumb years and years of dumping money into your YFZ450 thinking I could win this POS!!! So much I decided to sell my two YAMs and buy a 09DS450. Big mistake I made this season is thinking I can maintain the junk YAM! Anyone want to buy one, Sicko dude buy mine, I got $18K in it and will sell it to you for say $4,000. Don't try and chew me down now you said it's worth alot so buy it. PLEASE!!! LOL!

YAM makes me so made I could scream please don't put that name on this site. :mad: