sparks timing key installation gone wrong somewhere.

[Bridgewater]

alright well i printed out, studied and followed tri5ron's superb guide to the key installation but somehow i still get something to go wrong.
the only thing i didn't do was use a impact? which i read you could do without right?

heres my problem..i finished the installation and figured id just stick the key in really fast to make sure she fired up and responded like usual (or hopefully better).
when i started her it was much louder. it still had the same basic sound but it was like you could hear the gears turning 100x's louder and more high pitched. then id give it a little gas with the chock on and it would die very quickly, i couldn't keep it going for more than maybe 4 seconds?
and i just gave up and came in cause of how aggravated i was and didn't want to cause any damage by trying to get it to start. did i maybe possibly line it up wrong and not turn it all the way to the left? im just thinking maybe its something simple since it still wants to start and all the gears sound like there turning.

any idea's here guys? i seem to have horrible luck with mechanicing sometimes and this is what i want to do with my life..LOL.

[tri5ron]

is it possible that you may have put it in backwards?
did you have the red tip pointed AWAY from the engine?

did you get it to sit all the way in the keyway on the crankshaft, (Flush with the crankshaft)?

did you hold the crank/engine, and rotate THE FLYWHEEL to the left, (counter clockwise)?

did you Properly Torque the flywheel upon reinstallation?

[Bridgewater]

i believe i did all these things. i was abit confused with leveling off the key though. do u level it off so where the left side of the key sticks up abit farther while its flush with the notch (i did like this). or to where the key is jammed all the way in so the left side of the key is flush? i might of possible messed up on turning the flywheel to the left (thats what im thinking has to be wrong) if it is do u think it would make this kind of noise and react like this? i just dont want something much bigger to be going wrong lol.

im going to tear it apart again tomorrow to check over everything and just pretty much re-do it.
like i said i dont have a torque wrench, im sure i could barrow one though.
tri5ron do you mind if i pm you if i have any more questions?

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by Bridgewater
i believe i did all these things. i was abit confused with leveling off the key though. do u level it off so where the left side of the key sticks up abit farther while its flush with the notch (i did like this). or to where the key is jammed all the way in so the left side of the key is flush?
im going to tear it apart again tomorrow to check over everything and just pretty much re-do it.
like i said i dont have a torque wrench, im sure i could barrow one though.
tri5ron do you mind if i pm you if i have any more questions?

the key should "seat" into the keyway, on the crankshaft, completely, just like the original stock key.

the "notch" should be towards the rear, ...
the taller side should be towards the front.

and it is IMPERATIVE that the flywheel be PROPERLY TORQUED, using a TORQUE WRENCH.

An impact, or a Breaker bar, is no subsitute for a torque wrench.

Impacts are for 2 things,....
Loosening/removing stuck bolts,...
and tightening Car/Truck lug nuts.

yes you can pm me if you need to.

[Bridgewater]

alright im still abit confused sorry on my part.
so the taller side of the key needs to be level with the crankshaft. not the notch. i made the notch lever with the crankshaft. could this noise have possibly been something turning in there hitting the taller side of the key since it was sticking up just abit?
anyway i can save my gasket since i just put on or should i just buy a new one.
ill be in town tomorrow and buy a torque wrench and possible new gasket

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by Bridgewater
alright im still abit confused sorry on my part.
so the taller side of the key needs to be level with the crankshaft. not the notch. i made the notch lever with the crankshaft. could this noise have possibly been something turning in there hitting the taller side of the key since it was sticking up just abit?
anyway i can save my gasket since i just put on or should i just buy a new one.
ill be in town tomorrow and buy a torque wrench and possible new gasket

Quote-
so the taller side of the keyneeds to be level with the crankshaft?
Answer-
No.
The Taller side of the key will be protruding above the Crankshaft.
(this is what your flywheel will rest up against).

The NOTCHED portion, is what will be flush to the crankshaft surface.
(with the notch to the REAR of the quad)

Quote-
could this noise have possibly been something turning in there hitting the taller side of the key since it was sticking up just abit?
Answer-
No.
I'm guessing(Note this IS a GUESS), one of two things could possibly be making the noise,...
either you did not get the keyway in the FLYWHEEL properly aligned with the new key, and therefore not properly seated on the crankshaft, and is now rubbing on the sidecase,...

OR

you did not get the starter gears properly meshed back together with BOTH the starter shaft, AND the flywheel/crankshaft gear, at the same time.
(I'm assuming that you DID reinstall the starter gear Shaft, AND Shaft Spacer)

One other thing in your original post bothered me.
You said that you understood that a Impact was not necessary.
This is true, BUT,...
The context that you used it in, leads me to think, that you were confusing a Impact with a Torque Wrench.
(correct me if I am wrong here).

also, in my write-up, the only reference to a IMPACT, is during the REMOVAL. (And Yes, it can be REMOVED without using a Impact)
BUT,
For the INSTALLATION, I Specifically refer to using a TORQUE Wrench, not a Impact.

I am curious to learn the actual source of your loud noise, and am confident it will be self evident upon yor disassembly tommorow.
(Look for something, or some area that is unusually "Shiney" from rubbing, or ground out.)

In reguards to trying to save your new gaskets, I would suggest that AFTER you remove a the bolts again, that you try spraying some WD40, or PB Blaster on, and all around, the gaskets, and let it soak for awhile, BEFORE you remove the starter cover, and side case cover.

[Bridgewater]

alright this morning i went outside and took it apart again.
i believe my only problem is over tightening. (yes i did get impact and torque wrench mixed up, i went over the plans to fast i guess i just took the torque wrench for a impact. super bad on my part)

<a href="http://imageshack.us"><img src="http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/5184/grindingkc7.jpg" border="0" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us"/></a>
here shows were i think i just tightened the gear so much is was just grinding away which would explain the sound. correct me if im wrong?
..but would over tightening also explain these?
<a href="http://imageshack.us"><img src="http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/1830/rollerspq2.jpg" border="0" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us"/></a>
here you can tell the "rollers" are scuffed up abit from possibly this just being pressed to hard against them?
<a href="http://imageshack.us"><img src="http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/1567/spintt6.jpg" border="0" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us"/></a>.
last this picture is the backside of the flywheel with a few scratches in it which i also believe is from over tightening.
<a href="http://imageshack.us"><img src="http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/7384/cutkb4.jpg" border="0" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us"/></a>.
i have barrowed a torque wrench now and i believe i have saved my gasket.
im also working on getting my key back out because the notch isnt completely flush with the crankcase like it should be (pressed down a little to far).
any techniques to get this out again, trying to avoid damage and it seems much harder then the stock key.

[tri5ron]

It appears that you have found the source of the noise, but it's a little hard to tell due to the pics are rather blurry.

Also, I don't understand why you removed the crankshaft gear for the original installation of the Advance Key. That was unnecessary, and I will need to look at my factory manual to determine what may have gone wrong there.

Did the large crankshaft gear get reinstalled exactally the same way that it was removed?
Is there possibly a thrust washer or something behind it that did not get reinstalled?
I wont know these answers until I check the factory manual.

At this point, I do not understand what would have allowed the large crankshaft gear to come into contact with the engine case.

Scuffs on the Rollers?, You've got me there,... may or may not, be related to the cause of the crankcase gear/engine case issue.
Again, it was unnecessary to remove that, and I will need to go look at my manual.

next issue is,...
when you DID reinstall the large crankshaft gear,...
What means did you use to tighten it?, and how did you determine the proper required tightness/torque upon reinstallation.

Could it have possibly been too loose, allowing it to wobble?,(and therefor coming in contact with the engine case?), as opposed to being too tight, and causing it to rub?

Or is all of this null and void with the possibility that the smaller starter gear being reinstalled backwards?

bottom line is,...
yours is the first time I have ever heard of these noise issues, and it is also the first time that I have seen where someone has removed the large crankshaft gear and the smaller starter gear unnecessarily.
I have a suspicion that these are directly related.

[Bridgewater]

Originally posted by tri5ron
It appears that you have found the source of the noise, but it's a little hard to tell due to the pics are rather blurry.

Also, I don't understand why you removed the crankshaft gear for the original installation of the Advance Key. That was unnecessary, and I will need to look at my factory manual to determine what may have gone wrong there.

Did the large crankshaft gear get reinstalled exactally the same way that it was removed?
Is there possibly a thrust washer or something behind it that did not get reinstalled?
I wont know these answers until I check the factory manual.

At this point, I do not understand what would have allowed the large crankshaft gear to come into contact with the engine case.

Scuffs on the Rollers?, You've got me there,... may or may not, be related to the cause of the crankcase gear/engine case issue.
Again, it was unnecessary to remove that, and I will need to go look at my manual.

next issue is,...
when you DID reinstall the large crankshaft gear,...
What means did you use to tighten it?, and how did you determine the proper required tightness/torque upon reinstallation.

Could it have possibly been too loose, allowing it to wobble?,(and therefor coming in contact with the engine case?), as opposed to being too tight, and causing it to rub?

Or is all of this null and void with the possibility that the smaller starter gear being reinstalled backwards?

bottom line is,...
yours is the first time I have ever heard of these noise issues, and it is also the first time that I have seen where someone has removed the large crankshaft gear and the smaller starter gear unnecessarily.
I have a suspicion that these are directly related.

thanks for the quick replys to my problem.
im just getting home from town and got my own torque wrench and few other nicnacs.
The only reason i removed the large gear was simply because it slipped right off after removing the flywheel. I just slipped it off to allow abit more work more. As you may know the gear sits on a "bed of rollers" and has a washed behind and in front of it correct? i installed everything back just the way i had it taken out.
I wanted to stop by the honda shop today to pick up a manually but it being sunday they were already closed.

[tri5ron]

O.K.,
I'm back at the computer for a little while, and have my factory manual in my lap. lets see if we can figure out what caused this to rub.

First, Am I correct in thinking that the LARGE crankshaft gear, is what was hitting the engine case?
or, is it the smaller gear that was hitting?
(it's hard to tell in the pics, due to they are too blurry)

[Bridgewater]

yes sorry about the pictures i had a tool in one hand and my phone in the other.
yes the large gear

[tri5ron]

Sorry 'bout that, got called to come get my dinner.
give me a minute to download a couple of pics from the manual, and i'll post them for you.

[Bridgewater]

its cool man dont worry about it, no rush i understand.
thanks.

[tri5ron]

Ok, Here's some pics from the factory manual
below is the full page, then I'll give you some close ups

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n148/tri5ron/03%20400ex/IMG_9170.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n148/tri5ron/03%20400ex/IMG_9171.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n148/tri5ron/03%20400ex/IMG_9173.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n148/tri5ron/03%20400ex/IMG_9167.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n148/tri5ron/03%20400ex/IMG_9172.jpg

are you sure the washer, (on the crankshaft), between the bearing and the engine case, is in it's place?
I.E.- spacing the bearing out and away from the engine case?

[Bridgewater]

that looks just like mine.
the only question i have is the second washed between the flywheel and the large gear sits inside the flywheel correct?
and doesnt sit somewhere on the gear.

[tri5ron]

the second washer simply sits on the crankshaft, between the large gear, and the flywheel.

but you need to be focusing on "Why did the gear move inboard so much, so as to allow it to contact the engine case"?

now back to my question,
are you saying that the washer between the BEARING and the engine case IS in its proper place?

[Bridgewater]

yes it is correctly placed where it needs to be

[tri5ron]

ok,
how about the bearing then.
does it appear to be crushed in in way ?
do all of the rollers turn freely within the bearing race ?
it there any binding of any of the rollers ?

what we are trying to establish here is,
What has let the gear, move closer to the engine case, than it normally should.

so with that understanding,
and imagining the bearing assembly as simply a "spacer",
does it appear to be damage-free ?
or,
is it possible to be thinner/shorter than it should be?

[Bridgewater]

i understand what ur saying by simply thinking of it as a "spacer". it all seems to look/feel/move like it use to when i first took it off.
no damage noticeable besides just few scratches, nothing major enough to push the gear so close to the inside of the case.

[tri5ron]

Hhmmm,...
Well to be honest , now I'm kind of at a loss here.

If every thing that is supposed to be between the gear and the engine case is in good condition,...
there is no reason that the gear should have been able move closer to the case and allowing it to make contact.

does anyone else want to chime in here with any other ideas???

[Bridgewater]

yeah im also at a loss.
cause i have no idea.
tomorrow after school ill go check it again and look/go over everything and throw it back together and try it again.
the only conclusion i can still come to is mass over tightening.
which i tightened it myself and applied alot of force but i still wouldnt think i could get it that tight.
thanks alot for sitting here and helping me with some trial and error, also thanks for the pictures.
ill post here tomorrow again with my results.

[tri5ron]

your welcome,
that's what this forum is for,
for members to try and help other members.

But now it makes me wonder if we are really looking at the right things.
Are you positive that the marks on the engine case, are only there as a result of, and after you attempted the key installation?

I mean, this is simply not making sense to me now.

[tri5ron]

here's another thought.

Is it possible that the bearing/rollers, are supposed to go on in a specific direction?

in other words, and while removed from the crankshaft,
if you were to test fit the bearing in the large gear, note how it rides, then take it out and flip it over the opposite way, does it fit the same?

or is it sitting taller in one direction than the other direction?

this may seem like a dumb question, but since I do not have the parts in front of me, and can't see it for myself,
I'm basically "grabbing at straws" now.

[Bridgewater]

FINALLY.
problem resolved =].
wow i feel much better. today after school i went out and already had my cover off and saved my gasket from last night. i took my gears out. pushed my key back a bit. re aligned all my gears and threw it back together, increasing my timing.
this time i had my torque wrench i tightened it with.
the only thing i could think of that i did wrong was with one of the washers. i was at first putting the outer washer just resting it in the inside of the flywheel then slipping the crankcase threw it and threw the flywheel. this time i put it directly behind the key on the crankcase and well it worked if that was my problem.
maybe since i didn't do it this way before the washer wasn't getting pushed into the correct position and was allowing the gear to "flex or wobble".
also the tightening with the torque wrench made a difference cause i noticed i didn't have to try near as hard as before which makes me think i was over tightened it.
thanks to all those who helped,
special thanks to tri5ron