New Fuel Tank Location on the DS

[ThePhantomRider]

Looks like Epic is working on some new fuel tank locations to increase capacity, lower CG and hopefully figure out a more effective way to avoid fuel boil...

This picture clearly shows the main tank and perhaps an additional chamber in front of it, and I do know that on the Renegades they were using bladder fuel cells so that may be the case here.

Also notice the additional frame rail...

I enlarged this picture taken from the article on this site listing the Can-Am teams for 2009. Don't want them to think I took credit.

TPR

[WesDS450X]

Motoworks ftw

[ThePhantomRider]

What does FTW stand for.

The picture comes from here...http://www.atvriders.com/atvnews/canam2009-x-team-atv-racing-teams-p2.html

So I went on the assumption that they were working on the fuel tank which goes along with what I discussed with them a while back.

So are you saying that the fuel tank is actually Motoworks?

TPR

[WesDS450X]

naw idk if its motoworks, FTW=for the win. and i was talkin about the exhuast =P

[TNT]

I cant tell if the main tank is in? Why would you need an aux tank for MX there is plenty of fuel capacity? Seems like the CG is a little high and forward on these quads so that would help bring the nose down for sure!...but so does a lighter pipe. As far as boiling under pressure, humm looks like an al tank but not surrounded by all that plastic will help. I found some additional heat tape from BRP for the tank I am putting on a 09. ...has the boiling really been a big problem?

So rumor is true Hunter is riding CA.

[ThePhantomRider]

Under race conditions fuel boil has been an issue, that's why most put the heat reflective tape under the tank and drill holes in the surrounding black plastic for heat extraction.

I actually think now that I look at it, the front is not a tank but a shorter, wider and thicker radiator....

I'll find out for sure.


TPR

[WesDS450X]

naw in front of the tank, it looks like the oil tank lol

[TNT]

Yeah thats what I'm wondering what happen to the oil reserve tank and the upper rear arm attach frame member. Youd think they put a new radiator in the rear and trash the whole loover thing.

TPR you going to call Johnney at EPIC and find out for us or I will??

[TNT]

The main tank is 14 gal....plenty! for MX.

[TNT]

Now Im wondering what the LTR and new YAM w/pressure fuel is using for there tanks and why just the DS has the boiling problems? DS has a plastic tank.


Now im all fired up! lol! Ill look into this too there HAS to be a better way! That thing looks etrocious(did I spell that right lol) :confused:

[TNT]

+ Precison mounts their steering stabs right there in the way of that tank! :confused:

[ProspectorJim]

Originally posted by TNT1
The main tank is 14 gal....plenty! for MX.

the stock tank is about 3 gallons, like most of the 450's... where did you get 14 gallons?

[TNT]

Originally posted by ProspectorJim
the stock tank is about 3 gallons, like most of the 450's... where did you get 14 gallons?

Opps my bad 14L.....3 gal + .66 reserve....been a long day sorry but still enough for mx.

[WesDS450X]

i havent had any problems with boiling gas. and i ride 14 hour days WOT everywhere i go lol

[TNT]

Originally posted by WesDS450X
i havent had any problems with boiling gas. and i ride 14 hour days WOT everywhere i go lol

Yeah Wes but your close to stock Hunter and Sage and me/others are running motors 55-60HP!! HOT HOT HOT ....lol!

[ThePhantomRider]

It looks like a desert tank to increase the capacity so as not to have to pit every 50 miles.

TPR

[TNT]

Man thats a relief...when I first seen that I thought WTF....! :D

Guess Sage and Miller are doing some desert racing.....:cool:

Thanks for chasing it down.

[OutlawBill]

http://www.atvriders.com/gallery/2009-worcs-racing-01-misc-atv-photos/images/4J7W0172.jpg

[Dale512]

Wow looks like there was some major reworking of the front of the chassis to put that down there. Anybody have any more pics? Also, might just be my eyes but the does the frame rail above the Altec rail look different than stock? Also does the clutch cover look larger than stock?

[ThePhantomRider]

These have to be test units for fitament and performance purposes. I do know that this setup will fit in with very little to no changes to the frame or architecture whatsoever. If there is any change it would be accomplished by anyone with basic skills.

[maconu]

I dropped my ds of to DFR in Phoenix yesterday. He is one of the lead mechanics for the Epic CanAm team. He said:

They moved the fuel tank lower which necesitated relocating the oil tank. They are also running sealed (no overflow tank) radiators. He also said the black rails on their race bikes are steel not aluminium. He has been working with the bike prior to its release.

I'm feeling REALLY lucky to have him in the same area I am.

[dbkbushwacker]

Originally posted by maconu
I dropped my ds of to DFR in Phoenix yesterday. He is one of the lead mechanics for the Epic CanAm team. He said:

They moved the fuel tank lower which necesitated relocating the oil tank. They are also running sealed (no overflow tank) radiators. He also said the black rails on their race bikes are steel not aluminium. He has been working with the bike prior to its release.

I'm feeling REALLY lucky to have him in the same area I am.


What are you getting done to your bike?

[maconu]

He is adjusting my suspension and front end.

It rides fine now but this is my first race bike. He is going to adjust it like he does for the Pro's. It will be nice to know it was professionally done. I will also be interested to see how close my adjustments were. I spent an hour ish adjusting it.

[Dale512]

So did they move the fuel tank to stop the fuel boiling or to add capacity? Also any advantage to the sealed radiator?

[TNT]

The stock cooling system IS sealed and gets pressure tested to 16 PSI….the capacity has to be increased for better cooling.

The metal tank down low is going to do much better in conducting heat and preventing fuel boiling….Picture a metal spoon in boiling water vs a plastic spoon. Which one conducts heat better? Metal conducts 4-500 times better than plastic so will the metal tank be able to conduct heat away from the fuel cell/tank and prevent boiling.

[maconu]

Originally posted by Dale512
So did they move the fuel tank to stop the fuel boiling or to add capacity? Also any advantage to the sealed radiator?

We didn't get indepth but the first thing he mentioned was the change in CG.

When I say sealed radiator I mean.... They got rid of the overflow tank by puting a cap on top of the radiator. They removed the overlfow tank and replaced it with a bracket to hold the seat.

[ThePhantomRider]

Even though the header is close to the tank, the aluminum keeps the fuel cooler than the stock tank. Because it's a desert tank it would seem to me that the capacity would be up to around 4 gallons....

the other thing is that if you wanted to do this setup for an MX situation, you don't have to top it off but just fill it with the required amount of fuel for the moto....with the fuel down low only that would really improve the CG.

TPR

[TNT]

I talked to a reliable source about this and the primary reason for it is to get the CG down not to gain capacity or prevent fuel boiling...That was solved according to my source by heat reflective tape, drilling holes in the plastic, and removing the overflow tank which was subjected to engine heat. It's in the prototype and testing phase and will require a heat reflective tape wrap too.

As far as the new structural steel member, separate issue, has to do with pros bending the frame and changes to the stock suspension set up EPIC is running. Soon as I get home in front of the quad and see what he was talking about I will be able to explain a little more.

[TNT]

Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
Even though the header is close to the tank, the aluminum keeps the fuel cooler than the stock tank. Because it's a desert tank it would seem to me that the capacity would be up to around 4 gallons....

the other thing is that if you wanted to do this setup for an MX situation, you don't have to top it off but just fill it with the required amount of fuel for the moto....with the fuel down low only that would really improve the CG.

TPR

Guy I talked to said the EPIC team is running this tank for MX next season. Good point about filling the tank part way to get the CG down.....Not sure at what point the CG is too low, IMO good on the ground and flat fast tracks, whoops, corners, maybe a problem in the air depending on the weight/strength of the rider but maybe not notiable. But hey Im not arguing w/guys that spend waaay more time than I got at it lol...I hear the quad dives in the corner so a lower CG and adjustments to the suspension is the batltle here..Mind eveyone that this quad is extremely good in handling, we are talking about pros trying to get all they can out of it.

[ThePhantomRider]

You are right and wrong...there will be heat reducing countermeasures to be sure, but that is a desert tank with a large capacity.

The benefit of the design is that you can use 1/2 tank and lower the CG...

Yes you can have too low of a CG and it effect handling if your roll center is too low as well. You actually want a higher roll center than CG ideally so testing like they are doing is a must.

TPR

[TNT]

The EPIC mechanic I talked to said that tank is being tested for MX not oversized for desert, thats why Sage and Hunter are on it mxrs?.....He didn't know the capacity....besides the points.

Couple of problems here, yes aluminum can conduct heat if the surrounding air is cool, with the radiator right in front of the tank and the engine heat behind it, I don't see that happening, heat reflective tape can only do so much....Heat convection, radiation, and conduction are at play here and without going into a lengthy explanation my gut feel is this location opens up a can a worms but we shall see!

Second, the steel interface with aluminum, that structural joint at the fasteners may not work due to the different expansion rates of the metals(I have seen lots of problems as such)....Steel is half of aluminum and 3x more dense than al(hard), and I am not convinced that new steel beam location will keep the frame from lowering or bending over time. Once someone changes the arm geometry the frame design loads change and without going back to the computer(CATIA/FEA) it was designed on its a guessing game. An aluminum pyramid can be just as effective as a steel tube for example if placed correctly. The stock pyramid is a good strong cross section, but again it depends on how it is place or the load it is put under....same as steel, ti, or any material cross section.

Just my .02!

I don't think anyone can say who is right or wrong and the CG and handling is a rider preference thing....Agree lots more testing & time will tell!......:D

BTW the roll center has to be around the CG(the bulk weight is the engine)...all moments and roll(torsion), arm length/angles, shock travel, everything in FEA analysis is taken at the CG(the center of mass).

This quad has a lot of rake to offset that is the diving problem up front...Rake is the angle of the front center frame upward where the lower arms attach. Its there to keep the frame from hitting obstacles.

[ThePhantomRider]

Good points, again this is what testing is for.

As for the tank, it's capacity is over 4 gallons, and the oil capacity has been increased as well.

As for heat, the difference here is airflow. Down low, there is more air to remove heat away from the header. Problem with stock tanks under race loads was they needed the heat tape and holed drilled because the heat from the motor would just pool under the plastic with no real way to escape. If you have more airflow around the tank, and have more fuel it increases the boiling point as it takes more heat or a longer duration to boil more fuel.

As I also understand, the thermal testing of the tank showed that there was no more heat at the nearest point of the header to tank distance than under the tank and the aluminum tank appears to dissipate the heat better.

Again, they ran these quads for testing purposes, on their own and those were not even their race bikes but test bikes with nearly 1000 miles each on them so they in no way represent the final product.

They were designed for desert, but their application is great for short course.

As for the CG, Roll Center issue, it's very much a balancing act, in speaking to my father in law who has engineered and raced NASCAR and IRL cars, he's looking into the dynamics of quads and SXS to improve the amount of body roll without sacrificing performance.

Bottom line though is this is the most comprehensive upgrade project yet seen on the DS.

TPR

[TNT]

Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
Good points, again this is what testing is for.

As for the tank, it's capacity is over 4 gallons, and the oil capacity has been increased as well.

As for heat, the difference here is airflow. Down low, there is more air to remove heat away from the header. Problem with stock tanks under race loads was they needed the heat tape and holed drilled because the heat from the motor would just pool under the plastic with no real way to escape. If you have more airflow around the tank, and have more fuel it increases the boiling point as it takes more heat or a longer duration to boil more fuel.

As I also understand, the thermal testing of the tank showed that there was no more heat at the nearest point of the header to tank distance than under the tank and the aluminum tank appears to dissipate the heat better.

Again, they ran these quads for testing purposes, on their own and those were not even their race bikes but test bikes with nearly 1000 miles each on them so they in no way represent the final product.

They were designed for desert, but their application is great for short course.

As for the CG, Roll Center issue, it's very much a balancing act, in speaking to my father in law who has engineered and raced NASCAR and IRL cars, he's looking into the dynamics of quads and SXS to improve the amount of body roll without sacrificing performance.

Bottom line though is this is the most comprehensive upgrade project yet seen on the DS.

TPR

Yeah interesting stuff.....I got to make a confession. I went and did some research on roll axis since on aircraft I work on its quite simple nose to tail but on a car or quad different story it can vary off the CG in a say .5 g dive, and I found different ways to determine it.......Im doing some studies myself bouncing some stuff around learning a few things......

Wish the EPIC team all the success....I may call them back once I got a better grip on things and shoot the breeze.

[TNT]

Tell ya what these race teams need is a good Engineer on board like NASCAR but they are expensive!.....If BRP would release their CATIA and NASTRAN models to the teams then when these teams started changing the arm/shock and tank geometry they could go back to the models and see what it does to the frame/tank.....vs guessing and putting steel/tanks in places that may not work....My guess is the after market arm geometry changed frame loads causing the frame to bend, the teams are not sure how to offset it so they resort to what we call "reverse engineering" putting steel tubes here and there and testing, lots of testing and a long process even a season to get answers.......

Nice thing about the models is they can do heat flow test and determine the exact effects using CFD. Computational Fluid Dynamics.....

Maybe BRP has a strong hold on releasing models except maybe the Warnet Research and Development dept, not sure!

09 stock steel arms I hope work and I will be trying to maintain the stock geometry and see if my frame bends or drifts under heavy mx racing. :D

[bsmith106]

Originally posted by TNT1
Yeah interesting stuff.....I got to make a confession. I went and did some research on roll axis since on aircraft I work on its quite simple nose to tail but on a car or quad different story it can vary off the CG in a say .5 g dive, and I found different ways to determine it.......Im doing some studies myself bouncing some stuff around learning a few things......

Wish the EPIC team all the success....I may call them back once I got a better grip on things and shoot the breeze.

Not sure if this helps but the location of the roll center is a dictated by the angle of the a arms in relation to each other and distance from the spindle to the ground

can ams suck thats why they need to put redonkulous parts to try and make them competitive

[ProspectorJim]

Originally posted by 121pacheco
can ams suck thats why they need to put redonkulous parts to try and make them competitive

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