Ds450 Intake

[TNT]

Started this thread to get help and inform the site of my progress....

Looking at the DS450 intake/frame looks tight is anyone offering metal or ? intakes to replace all the rubber? DASA said they were working on plastic and used sheet metal last year race team. Ron Woods talked to them they have nothing for the intake.

Woods also said they have built intakes that improve the air sensor(AAPTS) readings in the box.....if you run no box he says mount it in the rubber boot. I wouldn't think that be very effective in rubber.

[DGS]

Had a look today and some of the Sea Doo jetskis run 52mm throttle bodies. They also run slightly bigger injectors..! I am trying to get my hands on these 2 items. I think the injector will swap out no problem ...will wait and see...!!

[mike_1985]

The guy at Jetworks in Margate knows about ski's . You need to tlk to him as he does quads and ski's

[fastford]

Dont know the difference between the Can-am 800 injectors and the DS450's but a Ford MotorSport injector off a small block will clip right into the fuel lines on the 800.

[Claas900]

Does anybody have a pic of a ds450 injector?

[ScottB125]

Putting a bigger TB isn't an issue, but depending on how much larger the injector is, you can't just swap those out. It may fit, but the computer needs to know that its larger. It'll run too rich.

I'm not sure if the software out there can acount for this?

[DGS]

Originally posted by ScottB125
Putting a bigger TB isn't an issue, but depending on how much larger the injector is, you can't just swap those out. It may fit, but the computer needs to know that its larger. It'll run too rich.

I'm not sure if the software out there can acount for this?

Would you not be able to change that with a PC3..? I have 1 and think i will be able to sort the fueling out...?
This is all new to me but i will find out as soon as my bike gets here..!!

[TNT]

My engine guy was throwing so much stuff at me yesterday I was in overload but from what I understood the system works in a range if you get outside of that range with more air density/temp or fuel then you need a remap….He sells open and closed loop systems and puts them on carb quads for ppl for $1500-$2000. I'll see if I can get a photo of the injector….I want to see how many spray nozzles it has, 8, 16 or? These quad systems are ancient automotive technology been around for years. I think the manu's just didn't want to do major redesigns on thier engines to go to a port system, just a matter of time untill they do….I could put a better EFI on the DS just too much $$.

[ScottB125]

I've seen some snowmobiles and street bikes with DFI and BS3 on them, so I'm sure you could adapt it to a quad. You would definately pick up power with either.

As far as the stock system handling a new injector, it would all depend on how much larger the new one is and how lean the tune was in the first place. You can fudge it if you have access to the VE table. If there is an inj flow rate table, its easier to do it there. Several ways to do it, but I'm not sure the programmers that are out can do this.

With the PC, is it a WOT only tuner or can you tune your part throttle and idle?

[WesDS450X]

My dealer has factory bigger fuel injectiors for the ds

[TNT]

Originally posted by ScottB125
I've seen some snowmobiles and street bikes with DFI and BS3 on them, so I'm sure you could adapt it to a quad. You would definately pick up power with either.

As far as the stock system handling a new injector, it would all depend on how much larger the new one is and how lean the tune was in the first place. You can fudge it if you have access to the VE table. If there is an inj flow rate table, its easier to do it there. Several ways to do it, but I'm not sure the programmers that are out can do this.

With the PC, is it a WOT only tuner or can you tune your part throttle and idle?

Most will do WOT only that don't know how to tune properly. There are 860 different variants or RPM vs throttle positions in tabulated form.....Graph RPM and Throttle position, at 10% increments to determine fuel requirements. IE: 10% throttle at 6,000 rpm= fuel requirement not to exceeed 80%, so if we get 60% under applied load we have room. What we will do many do not is run a full speed GPS check then go to the eddy current dyno and simulate the load to that max rpm which will include wind and track drag then tune to different throttle positions.

[DGS]

Originally posted by WesDS450X
My dealer has factory bigger fuel injectiors for the ds

I think the "Factroy" injectors either belong to the jetskis or Spyder..!! I work at a dealship and have access to all the BRP parts possible. I am waiting for my DS to arrive so i can see which parts will be interchangeable. I know the 990 heads are similar but they wont fit without major modification. The 990 runs single ignition or HT leads per cylinder where as the DS has to 2 (twin spark plugs). This makes the bore slightly different.

[WesDS450X]

Naw there def. for the ds450, says right on the packaging (2008/09 DS450).

[DGS]

Hey Wes, do you think you can get a part # for me..? I am meeting with the team on friday next week to discuss our racing for the year and what mods worked for us and what didnt last year. We are also getting some info on what some of the Factory guys are running and reccomend we do to our race machines...
I would like to bring up the injector deal if its not in the schedule..

[ScottB125]

Originally posted by TNT1
Most will do WOT only that don't know how to tune properly. There are 860 different variants or RPM vs throttle positions in tabulated form.....Graph RPM and Throttle position, at 10% increments to determine fuel requirements. IE: 10% throttle at 6,000 rpm= fuel requirement not to exceeed 80%, so if we get 60% under applied load we have room. What we will do many do not is run a full speed GPS check then go to the eddy current dyno and simulate the load to that max rpm which will include wind and track drag then tune to different throttle positions.

Ok, if you can do that, then you can add a larger injector and tune for it at all points. What you described sounds like the old...old way of tuning, called Alpha-N.

DGS, I was wondering if the 990 head was the same, thanks for that info.

[TNT]

Originally posted by ScottB125
Ok, if you can do that, then you can add a larger injector and tune for it at all points. What you described sounds like the old...old way of tuning, called Alpha-N.

DGS, I was wondering if the 990 head was the same, thanks for that info.

Yeah as long as you stay in the injectors capacity range 60-80% and 14.1:1 f/a, a larger injector may not be needed and not work. Whats the "new way" of tuning?

[ScottB125]

It's based off volumetric efficiency. It uses a MAP sensor, so you have MAP(kPa) vs RPM, whereas the Alpha-N has TPS vs RPM. The Alpha-N is fine for what we do with these quads.

[DGS]

Originally posted by ScottB125
It's based off volumetric efficiency. It uses a MAP sensor, so you have MAP(kPa) vs RPM, whereas the Alpha-N has TPS vs RPM. The Alpha-N is fine for what we do with these quads.

The DS does have a MAP sensor...!

[ScottB125]

Originally posted by DGS
The DS does have a MAP sensor...!

I thought it did.

So is the PCM Alpa-n or VE based?

[DGS]

No Idea.... I will find out but i think its the VE based...

[TNT]

I don't think the MAP(vacuum pressure) is necessary for EFI but can provide more accuracy in our case. The Ambient Air Pressure & Temperature Sensor(AAPTS) in the air box is reading barometric pressure, temperature, partial pressure of water or vapor pressure(humidity), along with MAP in the TB sends pressure info to the ECU to calculate the differentials. I think the MAP is there for pressure differential to the AAPTS then the ECU has tables based on the density formula that include the gas constants for dry and humidity air. In that respect, since the ECU makes the density calculations the tuning method I described is accurate. The EFI technology on these quads is old, we get there but not by the most efficient methods. In a closed loop O2 system w/ actual MAP(not TB MAP)we could use a VE or Alpha-N tune method for more accuracy.

I suspect when we replace our intake with a better chamber(metal or plastic) the air/temp sensors will become more efficient.

[ScottB125]

I guess it really doesn't matter, being we only have the power commander to tune with...lol

[TNT]

Thats the area I am struggling with a little understanding. I was told I need to go get a PC3, its the interface to the ECU correct. That will allow my engine guy to put different MAPS in correct? What does it have to due with tunning?

I have yet to see all this for the first time soon when we get on the dyno and I am new to this EFI stuff.:confused:

Power Commander is a company so where do I buy it? Its a model #3 I want?

Also how does my limp mode get removed and my rev limit changed up?

[dbkbushwacker]

Originally posted by TNT1
Thats the area I am struggling with a little understanding. I was told I need to go get a PC3, its the interface to the ECU correct. That will allow my engine guy to put different MAPS in correct? What does it have to due with tunning?

I have yet to see all this for the first time soon when we get on the dyno and I am new to this EFI stuff.:confused:

Power Commander is a company so where do I buy it? Its a model #3 I want?


You can buy power commanders from Fuel moto usa, they're use to tune fuel maps. You can download basic maps via laptop, but when you do engine mods you'll need to use a dyno with the laptop to make a custom map for ur set up. TNT1 you should of research all this stuff before you started bashing on ltr311 cuz he does all this tuning on fuel injected quads with a laptop and dyno.

[TNT]

Originally posted by dbkbushwacker
You can buy power commanders from Fuel moto usa, they're use to tune fuel maps. You can download basic maps via laptop, but when you do engine mods you'll need to use a dyno with the laptop to make a custom map for ur set up. TNT1 you should of research all this stuff before you started bashing on ltr311 cuz he does all this tuning on fuel injected quads with a laptop and dyno.


Thats what I thought. For the record I was never bashing 311 for his ability to tune...I just dont agree with using the dyno as the only means to compare hp there are sooo many other factors and dyno results out there, dyno tunes period and to each their own imo...Now after seeing this PC3 I see what Dale means limited!....dont want to get into that all again lets move on.

How about the limpo mode who can remove it?

[DGS]

A Dealer can remove the Limp mode. They use BUDS to remove it...!!!

[Blizzard24]

I do not believe the dealer can remove the limp mode, they can reset the temp setting that triggers the limp mode so it doesnt come on as early.

to remove the Limp mode you would need an ECU from Can Am's race department and they are only available to their race teams.

[DGS]

We removed my Limp Mode. I work at a dealer and i will double check which software was used. I was not working there at the time they removed it but was told they used BUDS... I will let you know tomorrow...!!!

[TNT]

I talked to Fuel Moto today mid to late Feb the PC5 will be available for $269 along w/ a Auto Tune Module w/ a O2 sensor you put in the exhaust that automatically adjust the F/A tune as you ride for $229. The PC 5 will no longer have a wide range Fuel/RPM PC3 tune and you can go in there and make tweaks to the maps. PC5 will offer more increments over the PC3 10% and still be based on throttle position/RPM. He said the MAP tuners are not more efficient its based on the MAP and tune.