Performance difference between A/C and L/C [Archive]

mxdad423

01-15-2009, 08:30 AM

I have talked to some of the best engine builders in the bussiness, and for what the kids do there is really no advantage to the L/C, unless you are running alot of laps. Most of the races these kids are only running 4 to 5 laps. If you was running higher number laps then yes the L/C would be an advantage just for the cooling purposes. If you do the same work to the L/C and the A/C, on a Dyno I don't think you would really see any differance in performance.

Kevin Smitley

01-15-2009, 08:36 AM

one more thing we went from a a/c to a l/c half way through the year last year and we improved on our starts and finishes thats all i'm saying and our ac was ported our lc was stock

tntauto1127

01-15-2009, 08:39 AM

Thanks everyone for your replies.

tireman43

01-15-2009, 08:43 AM

The biggest reason L/C is better is the cooling part. You can run tighter tolerances in the motor when it comes to compression, porting, etc. It is a constant variable when it comes to the build. With the A/C you are betting on the weather(temp) and how the air is getting to the motor. As DAVY'SDAD said, heat kills HP. I don't personally care either way, I'm just adding reasons why people and myself choose L/C over A/C now a days. By the way the rider makes a HUGE different in how a machine works regardless the HP it makes.

Kevin

DAVYS DAD

01-15-2009, 08:44 AM

cant we all just get along lol i agree on running lc if you are running alot of laps but the ac should be just fine i ran a ac 2 years and beat many lc but im sure we had a stronger motor

should i bring my boxing gloves to the next race or do you guys want to have a beer drinking contest LOL
LATER GUYS

tireman43

01-15-2009, 08:47 AM

mxdad423

01-15-2009, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by tgcheeseman
Thanks Kevin thats what we was looking for as some people like Racer65 dont understand the meaning of how would it be better. Thanks for your advice Kevin!!!

No problem, and like I said that's not my opinion that came from some very tallented people in the bussiness. glad to help.

Kevin Smitley

mxdad423

01-15-2009, 08:52 AM

Originally posted by DAVYS DAD
cant we all just get along lol i agree on running lc if you are running alot of laps but the ac should be just fine i ran a ac 2 years and beat many lc but im sure we had a stronger motor

should i bring my boxing gloves to the next race or do you guys want to have a beer drinking contest LOL
LATER GUYS

Thats ecactly right, I seen your boy ride, and man he can fly, thats what alot of people don't understand, you can put a slow rider on the fastest quad in the world and a good rider on the slowest, and the good rider will come out on top, it's more the rider than the machine.

Can I borrow a pair of boxing gloves, I think I retired mine a long time ago. LOL

Kevin Smitley

01-15-2009, 08:53 AM

apparently people don't like others making money and inproving stuff to save money for low budget racers so they can compete at the same level with people who have unlimited funding

ww228king

01-15-2009, 09:14 AM

http://www.liquidcooledairpower.com/lc-ridofheat.shtml

more gas and more air means more fire power meaning more heat... stock AC and stock LC might be the same power... but start to add more engine mods and changing the engine RPMs will add heat... then the LC will pay off to save the engine form internal damage by keeping the temp down... saving bearings and seals on 2 stroke engines... try reving a 2 stroke AC engine at 10,000 RPMs for 5 mins.... then do the same test with an LC engine.... the internal components in the AC engine will be red hot and the LC engine will not... i studied this when the 450s went to LC.... wondered why because the 4 stroke RPMs will not reach over 9,000 ... but the valves will be thankfull... kinda like saving a rebuild every year.. only 1 and not 2 or 3...

Also... i will add this.. metal over a period of time will expand and break down with heat.. and with the AC engine inter walls of a cylinder getting really hot then pounded with pressure, the cylinder will start to expand and you will have blow by (Lost HP)... then when it cools by down, the cylinder will start to strink by to its form... but with this happening over and over and over.. the form will be lost and not be the perfect cylinder anymore...Things will swell during the heat of the moment..LOL ....LC will keep that from happening and keep the horse power there....
dirt bike motors went with LC years ago for this purpose

Wish they made LC springs....!!!

mxdad423

01-15-2009, 09:23 AM

No I haven't had a chance to check it out yet but I will. Thats COOL, I know my son was excited out about it.

Kevin Smitley

ww228king

01-15-2009, 09:30 AM

added more info to my post above...

ww228king

01-15-2009, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by tgcheeseman
Originally posted by ww228king
http://www.liquidcooledairpower.com/lc-ridofheat.shtml

yes but this is on a 4 stroke which is totally different than a 2 stroke as the two stroke pulls cool air in and pushes the hot air out . The dirt bikes have way more rpm then these little minis. They also hit 14,000 rpms right now not over a period of time.Im not trying to argue but this is just my opinion, A 4 stroke has valves cam everything as the car so yes it does get hotter faster than the 2 stroke. IMO thanks Toby

oh not arguing at alll... this is a good debate..
true... the 2 stroke is pulling air in and pushing out. (turbo time to keep the pulling part out..lol).. but with this going on, it will also add to the engine being cooler with the water already cooling the engine and keeping the cylinder walls from ballooning out and causing blow by... I only see the waste in LC in drag racing with these little engines... run one lap then wait 20 mins... AC and LC would be about the same... now if we can figure out how to put cold air intakes on these things then LC might not be such a big thing...lol and also put an ice container to keep the gas cool ...coold gas burns better than hot gas...
it is just the moving up in times..LC has been proven to keep HP longer than AC...
:macho

like i said before... love this debate

mxdad423

01-15-2009, 10:37 AM

That was going to be the next thing I said, you can get either the elecrical pump or the mechanical. Up our way we don't run the battery and get rid of all the elecrical stuff not needed so that means we would have to run the mechanical pump off of the crank, yes the fan runs of the crank to but to me water is harder to push then air so I would think you would loose a bit of HP with the pump for the water, again I don't think it would be a noticable differance but I don't think there is a noticable differance in HP between the L/C and A/C anyway, not from what I have seen anyway.

Kevin Smitley

#404's Dad

01-15-2009, 10:47 AM

I have had both, still have both, they both run great!

Water Cooled is a lot heavier after you figure for all the added parts and coolant as well as the added strain on the crank having to turn the water pump.

"My notes from last year show the Water Cooled setup to weigh in at 11.7 pounds "Dry" and the Air Cooled to weigh in at just under 5 pounds at 4.9 pounds that's like 6.8 pounds difference!! "

Air Cooled runs fine and stay consistent even after having it's butt whooped during Ironman 60 minute races where the laps are consistently about 1.15 throughout the entire race.

I think Water Cooled is better for the guy that is not real good with tuning as it will be more forgiving to jetting errors (Heat) than the Air Cooled will be.

Which one can make more power? Heck I dunno but you better do the test with a couple cylinders that have exactly the same ports to start with and have them CNC copy ported to be sure they are identical when finished or the results are meaningless. Apples to Apples or nothing.

Just my OPINION

ww228king

01-15-2009, 10:48 AM

water is running through the cooling fins to keep the water cool... not just a closed loop...kinda like an oil cooler on the 4 strokes...

you still have that fan pulling air and pushing to your engine...
the dirt bikes didn't have that and the LC pump still dont starve thr power... it helps to make it... ask ant KTM 50 dad about thier LC vs AC engine...

and for the testing... i think the R&D has done been there and you see where the power is made today...LC!

Cheeseman... i have an 82cc topend that is bolted on that Monsoon.... I don't know if you can use it, but the piston should be 50cc

ww228king

01-15-2009, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by tgcheeseman
yes it would be a 50 mm piston as its a 42 50 motor and im needing the 50mm piston and rings. let me know ww228king.
I can send you the whole topend... I will not need it. The topend compression was 140psi, so it is pretty good. The problem with the engine was the crankseal.. I will PM you the details .... don't want to ruin the debate..lol

Logan #34's Dad

01-15-2009, 12:13 PM

As someone said on here, The engine builder can get more aggressive with the porting on a l/c cylinder because of the constant temp. of the l/c. The builder can only go so far with a a/c because of expansion of the a/c cylinder. Builders can make the metal in the cylinders thinner creating volume. So we can't really compare apples to apples.
Also, someone said to have them run for 10 minutes wide open and compare the temps. You need to remember how the cooling works with a radiator - like your car - when it pushes air through the radiator as you move is cools the coolant thus keeping the temp close to constant. It will take ALOT longer for the l/c to get overheated than an a/c as long as it's moving. If they had a thermostat you could guarantee the engine temp to be constant. JMO

hotquads1

01-15-2009, 01:18 PM

I will throw in an opinion, first thing to condsider is heat is energy , a two stroke needs heat, this is the driving force of the piston(expansion of the gases as temps rise ), though the desired temp must be kept somewhat stable and consistent to provide desired performance. OVERHEATING robs power, detonation and increased friction from to much heat is the reason for the power loss. Most of my experience with these jog engines has been on MX tracks for 4 laps of racing which is about 12 minutes (on a national track), I personally have not known of any aircooled quads having overheating issues in this amount of time, my hands on experience as well as my observance of other machines has brought me to the conclusion that all things being equal , there is no significant difference in power output .
With that being said I have noticed a difference in the "out of the box" performance betwqeen the a/c and l/c , I attribute this to the fact the l/c cylinder just recently( last few years) being developed having more desirable port timing and compression ratio than the 20 year old a/c design, (note)recently DRR upgraded the A/c port timing to be similar to their l/c. I think younger drivers (50cc class) that are going to be racing competitvly that will be porting and blueprinting the engine will benefit from the a/c just by shaving the approximate 10lbs of l/c equiptment off the front of bike, I say this because these little guys nose diving after every jump will not drive as fast as a kid that is able to land square and level( more seconds per lap will be gained by consistentdriving than any percieved small HP gain ) just as others have said drivers win the races not power. For older drivers 70cc or 90cc or soon to be 70cc , I think the l/c option has some advantages in the fact that most aftermarket upgrades and future r/d will be focused on the liquid cooled bike and buying the bike with l/c option is much cheaper than converting it. IMO ( the comments above are mainly based on 50cc stock limited quads)
marc

marsrace2

01-15-2009, 01:21 PM

just my 2cents but I like the Liquid cooled for what we do. We race Flat track on 1/4 to 1/2 mile tracks. My son runs almost wide open lap after lap for 12 laps. We have seen several Air Cooled cylinders burn down and never had a problem with ours.

#404's Dad

01-15-2009, 04:11 PM

Air Cooled bikes don't melt down simply because they are Air Cooled, they melt down because they are tuned improperly mostly, a Water Cooled bike can melt down too if tuned wrong its just more tolerable to improper tuning than the Air Cooled because of the added cooling ability.

If an Air Cooled bike is tuned properly they have No Issues with over heating even on 1/2 mile WOT tracks.

On a 50cc DRR I agree, Air Cooled is a better way to go ONLY due to saving the weight although we beat the air cooled bikes and won the championship this year with Water Cooled.

To each there own, We all have our opinions and beliefs.

ww228king

01-15-2009, 07:04 PM

Last words.... Catch up with times, go LC! lol LC is so easy a cave man can do it...lol Just messing...

:macho

cheeseman... i sent you an email

dirttrack86

01-15-2009, 08:27 PM

Well, heres another unneeded opinion. LOL. I have both AC and LC. I have tested over and over and over for days on end. I have spent I don't know how much money trying to stay ahead of those knuckleheads Trevor Thatcher, Trevor Haggerty, Levi Sey, and Brett Walsh ! lol. And it always came out the same. The AC was always just a shade faster than the LC. I have bought every cylinder that I know of on the planet and tested with all kinds of combinations. And it still always comes out the same. Now we are only talking a couple tenths, but a tenth is a tenth. And for what it's worth, this motor has never been beat by an LC. Now this is for modified 50 motors only. 70's and up, it's a totaly different ball game. :)

#404's Dad

01-15-2009, 08:53 PM

Look what the cat drug in!! Where the heck you been Mark?

Originally posted by dirttrack86
Well, heres another unneeded opinion. LOL. I have both AC and LC. I have tested over and over and over for days on end. I have spent I don't know how much money trying to stay ahead of those knuckleheads Trevor Thatcher, Trevor Haggerty, Levi Sey, and Brett Walsh ! lol. And it always came out the same. The AC was always just a shade faster than the LC. I have bought every cylinder that I know of on the planet and tested with all kinds of combinations. And it still always comes out the same. Now we are only talking a couple tenths, but a tenth is a tenth. And for what it's worth, this motor has never been beat by an LC. Now this is for modified 50 motors only. 70's and up, it's a totaly different ball game. :)

cardinalhvac

01-16-2009, 05:57 AM

as of right now the air cooled engines built by the qualified engine builder are way faster. there is a new cylinder in development for the liquid cooled but it hasn't been perfected and quote from one of the best builders in the country "I don't know if they will ever get it right" I guarantee you my 90cc a/c will blow the doors off any 90cc liquid cooled out there. again i spent a lot of money on engine work so we are by no means stock but we out motor every 90cc liquid cooled we come against and our partner has done it at the atva duro extreme TT nationals over and over with the exact same engine we have.
also we never have any heat problems on our a/c except for tearin' up some clutches

dirttrack86

01-16-2009, 08:33 AM

Hey Corey,
Haven't been around much, with the economy slow and everything, they really tightned up on the work release program. LOL. And with Hot Quads and G-Force not taking aluminum cans anymore, I haven't been able to buy very much. :p

#404's Dad

01-16-2009, 08:40 AM

Originally posted by tgcheeseman
Now thats what im talking about right there a man positive in his motor. So where is our first race and this debate will be over hey L?C quads you wanna try your luck against an A/C???? But anyway we love the A/C motors as were less weight for the flat tracks. JMO

I'm ready when you are Cheesyman, I think we are close enough to make it happen too LOL. 50cc quads asphalt drag racing sounds like a friggen blast to me!!!

#404's Dad

01-16-2009, 08:46 AM

Originally posted by dirttrack86
Hey Corey,
Haven't been around much, with the economy slow and everything, they really tightned up on the work release program. LOL. And with Hot Quads and G-Force not taking aluminum cans anymore, I haven't been able to buy very much. :p

Damn sorry to hear Mark, I thought you were done with the whole Work Release deal a few months ago? Lose all your Good Time or what man?

Yeah Aluminum Cans are not worth squat anymore, last season around here they were like .78 a pound now they are like .23 looks like we won't be racing if this keeps up!! lol

Ok holler when you get some free time if ya want.

#404's Dad

01-16-2009, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by tgcheeseman
Well I was talking about for cardinalhvac hes the one who said he would I guarantee you my 90cc a/c will blow the doors off any 90cc liquid cooled out there. again i spent a lot of money on engine work so we are by no means stock but we out motor every 90cc liquid cooled we come against and our partner has done it at the atva duro extreme TT nationals over and over with the exact same engine we have.
also we never have any heat problems on our a/c except for tearin' up some clutches

so I was looking for a race as he gauaranteed to blow the doors off any L/C. My motor is not done and our quad is getting powder coated anidized red. So know I cant take you up on this but I will see you at the nationals this year promise you that then we can see whats up! Im positive in our motor too and never ran it yet lol. but i know your super fast thats a fact look at what you did in 08 that tells me your fast. And why do I have to be Cheesyman?? lol

Dang I was all happy too!! Nah just playing but if you two hook up be sure and record it for us all to see man.

Who is your partner that does the EDT series and which ones will you be running this coming year?

Hoping this season is good but it sounds like attendance will be down and I am not sure why, smaller schedule and they are spaced out perfectly!!

ROFL, I dunno I remember someone else called you that before and I laughed my butt off for like 2 whole minutes !!!

#404's Dad

01-16-2009, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by tgcheeseman
we will run all , but 2 the farthest away. Partner? The only partner I have is my son who races the quad. We cant wait for the EDT. Now do you know Keagan Adamson? Hes fast.

I dunno who the "Partner" is, you had said

"and our partner has done it at the atva duro extreme TT nationals over and over with the exact same engine we have."

we too are anxious for the end of May to get here!!

marsrace2

01-16-2009, 10:25 AM

what is IFTA?

hotquads1

01-16-2009, 12:57 PM

INTERNATIONAL FEDERATION TECHNICAL ASSOCIATION

IFTA

marsrace2

01-16-2009, 01:55 PM

I can understand the argument that a LC and AC can make the same power, I dont see how you can say that the AC makes more?

tireman43

01-16-2009, 02:09 PM

Unless it's one of those 90cc stroker motors. Which I'm not saying any of you have, but most strokers are not legal 90cc motors as per ATVA(90cc or less) unless its using a 50mm bore or less. And still the rider is the X factor. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Kevin

JIM GRACE

01-16-2009, 02:15 PM

tom, you will be able to form your own opinion on this topic

when you get your air cooled 50 i have for you. :)

the best comment so far ( the rider makes the biggest difference)

tntauto1127

01-16-2009, 02:16 PM

This has turned into an interesting thread. I'm glad I started it. Lots of good info. And it's kinda fun seeing you guys go back and forth.

tireman43

01-16-2009, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by tntauto1127
This has turned into an interesting thread. I'm glad I started it. Lots of good info. And it's kinda fun seeing you guys go back and forth.

It is a good thread so far and it really comes down to preference. Everyone who has spent the kind of money we do on these things "hopes" they have the best and fastest no matter A/C or L/C.

Kevin

cardinalhvac

01-16-2009, 04:39 PM

My partner/ good friend is sean seabaug and his son is kyler ya know that white dinli tearin it up

To all you out there one name Justin at maximum rpm thanx for the awesome horsepower

quadscrib

01-16-2009, 07:46 PM

I think really we're splitting hairs but in the long run theres a reason that most engines in most applications have evolved to liquid cooling. Liquid cooling if its done properly (which in this case I beleive it is) offers a more consistant operating temp(s) than air cooling, period.
Wether one is faster than the other comes down to the hair splitting infantismal variables that determin who crosses the finish line first.

mini racer #39

01-17-2009, 01:30 PM

hey cheeseman erik wants to race . he has a l/c motor and we live in IND. so it would be close for both, what do you say erik havert #39

mini racer #39

01-17-2009, 02:03 PM

cool...you can pick the track and all that stuff we dont care lol see ya soon ps if you need a bike you can use one of ours:D :D :D

mini racer #39

01-17-2009, 02:26 PM

we have never flat tracked but it sounds cool as for #204,#7,#44 we race them every other weekend so its just another race for us:devil:

DAVYS DAD

01-17-2009, 03:12 PM

sounds to me the dads need to race,leave the kids out of it. it is for the kids right or is it???:confused:

later

Logan #34's Dad

01-17-2009, 08:13 PM

Why not just a simple straight Drag race? Figure about 200 feet in total length, start with 50ft then again at 100ft then 150ft up to 200ft. Like mx racing - first one to turn one is the fastest.

drxracing

01-17-2009, 11:14 PM

i am with DAVYS DAD you guys should race (dads)

Logan #34's Dad

01-18-2009, 02:02 AM

I got my money on Erik's Momma!

DAVYS DAD

01-18-2009, 07:18 AM

i always put my money on mama lol

later

ww228king

01-18-2009, 07:41 AM

so we gonna have 35+ Pit ATV Racing? do they make 5000RPM torq springs...lol

ww228king

01-18-2009, 08:53 AM

me too...lol 31 here.. i was just messing with you guys....

mini racer #39

01-18-2009, 10:34 AM

#34 do you remember bobbie with the golf cart at muddy creek i have seen her race . i think it would be alot safer for everyone... to keep her off the track!!!! i will be 36 on the 22 i must be the old man now. :huh and the cabin fever has set in for all of us up here in the snow. a quick ? how many springs can you stack for 5000 rofl til it hurts

mini racer #39

01-18-2009, 11:22 AM

Dusenberry you must have forgot how you had to come and save me when i had problems with the golf cart!! I don't think Jerry knows how close I came to catapulting Erik out of the golf cart....LOL. I did try to race a bike...ok more like ride one..IT WAS NOT A PRETTY PICTURE:huh !!! I think i will just leave this forum ti the snowed in and cabin fever dads!!!.......LMAO:blah:

ww228king

01-18-2009, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by mini racer #39
#34 do you remember bobbie with the golf cart at muddy creek i have seen her race . i think it would be alot safer for everyone... to keep her off the track!!!! i will be 36 on the 22 i must be the old man now. :huh and the cabin fever has set in for all of us up here in the snow. a quick ? how many springs can you stack for 5000 rofl til it hurts

lol... they should rate the torq springs by weight ...or foot pounds....
and we might have to modifiy the belt pullies to make it a dual belt setup to help in the stretching and slipping with the adult weight...well, some of us adults..lol

DAVYS DAD

01-18-2009, 06:07 PM

heres a thougth, gate drops lc takes the lead hose pops off coolant leaking ac takes the lead lol just kidding

later guys

Logan #34's Dad

01-18-2009, 07:53 PM

Hey Bobbie - You know that if Erik had been on the cart he'd been thrown 40 feet! That would have won you some money on America's Funniest Videos for sure. You get a way to strap that bad boy down?
Davys Dad - Believe it or not it happened to Logan at Loretta's this past year. It made it all the laps until about 100 yards from the finish she just would not get moving and Logan got passed by two quads like 10 feet from the finish! LOL :mad: I put the hose on after it cooled down filled 'er up with coolant and ran a hurt engine in the 70 cvt class.

bulldogfallon

01-19-2009, 06:32 AM

Originally posted by JIM GRACE
tom, you will be able to form your own opinion on this topic

when you get your air cooled 50 i have for you. :)

the best comment so far ( the rider makes the biggest difference)

Great comment Jim!!!

I'll take the slower quad with the better rider every day of the week!!

Our liquid cooled 50 won both motos Saturday night (Congrats to Dillan) at one of the most competitive tracks in FL? I seem to remember and air cooled coming in 2nd ? :)

Some great points made here and really it comes down to weight being a big factor in 50s, but if that really was the case the the bolt on nerfs bars wouldn't be added then? They add about an additional 10lbs to the quad?

So we fight to save 6 lbs on AC vs LC and then put even more back on?

Interesting :)