DASA for DS450

[Eli F]

I heard DASA will make new Exuase for the 450
Is it true?
I want to buy a new full system for my bike

And what do you people think about the Roon Woods and the Motoworks?

Thanks alot
Eli

[WesDS450X]

if your gona wait for dasa, id just get a motoworks slip on tell then

[dbkbushwacker]

I just called Dasa and they said they aren't making anything yet because there is no demand. We all needs to start calling and asking them to build pipes for our quads. Heres their #951.681.1131

[hotshotgoal30]

are you kidding? everyone had me hyoed up about this pipe telling me there would be one out in the near future. looks like ill be going with the motoworks

[WesDS450X]

Motoworks ftw!

[bwkcobra03]

I just called and they dont know if they are going to make an exhaust for us. They do not have any demand for the product.

[dbkbushwacker]

I would get the HMF or Ronwood over the motoworks.

[Eli F]

So what do you think I sould get? the woods or the motoworks?

[dbkbushwacker]

Originally posted by Eli F
So what do you think I sould get? the woods or the motoworks?

The Ron wood makes more power but I don't like looks. I can wait another month and if Dasa doesn't release their pipe I'm getting a HMf pipe.

[bwkcobra03]

I am going to get the hmf Bill Balanced full exhaust. It is less than $450 and it includes shipping. That's over $50 cheeper than the cheepest Motor works full exhaust and more than a $100 cheeper than the FMF and every one said FMF sucks. I had FMF on my old 2strokes ant they were AWESOME.

If you think about it what is a 1 to 2 peak hp from one to the other. Unless you are a pro rider. It is not peak hp you want. you want the best hp and tq curve depending what kind of riding you do. I trail ride mostly and need the lower end power.

All these exhausts will give you what you are looking for SOUND & POWER. You wouldn't be able to feel the difference unless you are going to dyno your bike.

Why wait for a company to decide if they are going to make us an exhaust and charge us $200 more fore almost the same thing???

[hotshotgoal30]

so i guess we are all back at square one. lol which pipe to get? i dont really like the looks of the ron woods. im thinking motoworks alot of people are satisfied. but as you said the hmf looks nice too. when you get it you have to let me know how loud it is. does everyone think its necissary to get the full slip on? i mean arnt our pipes already good? how much will we benefit really from changing the whole system vs a slip on?

[kellymi]

Im going to get an HMF when I get the money. Frankly the HMF will do just fine for me. I'm not ready to fork out more money for the little extra power I probably won't be able to feel.

[bwkcobra03]

I cant wait to get the exhaust. I should be able to order it next week. Man I am spending to much money on this machine. on wednesday i am picking up a used set of silver itp t9 baja rims with razor tires for $200 I need to get 2000 ice racing screws for $160, and 2 bottles of green tire slime sealent $25. I just got new sprockets to day $95 , the fmi should be hear tomorrow $99 And soon i will get The air box lid $55, K&N air filter kit $105, Bill Balance QRS exhaust $500.

The looke my wife gives me when she reads the credit card statement PRICELESS. LOL :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

[crixal]

well, i'm pissed about dasa. i'd say hmf, rossier, or ron woods would be our best bet. not sure on the intake though. we need hmfdsttiokjjjj450 to dyno his so we can see some numbers. driver311 made 8.3 over stock w/ a ron woods, k&n w/ no box, and pc3 i think. motoworks pipes, filter and fmi made 5.8 over stock. i'd like to see an overlay of the hmf, rossier, and ron woods. we need someone w/ a dyno to do a test for us. :)

[crixal]

those random letters is where my daughter hit the keys, sorry. it was supposed to be hmfds450.

[WesDS450X]

just get a slip on guys, the stock header is best for the bike, just like the yfz. just save ur self some bucks and get a slip on

[crixal]

you might get two horse and better throttle respone w/ a slipon.. i'll pay the extra for real power.

[dbkbushwacker]

If found on ebay Atv Galaxy is selling full HMF exhaust with free sparky, quiet core and free shipping for 442.00 Hopefully I can do my taxes soon so I can order one.

As for a intake I might get a Rossier intake and cut large holes in the air box.

[hotshotgoal30]

yeah id love to see some numbers. that one guy i think it was ltr400 or something was saying dasa all they way and he has a dyno. somebody needs to do a nice test on all these pipes and then do a nice, simple to understand write up. is that to much to ask for? lol hopefully someone can do it by the time i get my tax return.

[dbkbushwacker]

Originally posted by hotshotgoal30
yeah id love to see some numbers. that one guy i think it was ltr400 or something was saying dasa all they way and he has a dyno. somebody needs to do a nice test on all these pipes and then do a nice, simple to understand write up. is that to much to ask for? lol hopefully someone can do it by the time i get my tax return.


Some guys over at ds450hq are putting together a pipe shoot, last I heard they'll waiting for a couple more pipes.

[Mr. Big Time]

All this big hype about the all might dasa pipe....now this is just too funny.......all these people acting like they knew what they were talking about, the funniest thing, is that dasa didnt even have a pipe out, and it was suppose to be the best....and now they arent even making one.....just soooo funny

[crixal]

ron woods, hmf, and rossier still smoke the motoworks, so it's no big deal. way to spend the most and get the least.

[ltr311]

My suggestion for what its worth guys. I live on the dyno so i have a little experience.

For most mid to top power Ron woods hands down.

For all around best power. Dasa but it sounds like a no go. So next suggestion is hmf and rossier. Both make KILLER power across the board. On every machine Ive tested them on they are both in the top 5 for pipes. rossier is a touch louder, but makes a touch more power. It negotiable though.

For the least amount of power. Go fmf. They are garbage and I have proof. If someone tells you different ask them for proof. Guess what, they wont have it. I Do!!!


Good luck guys. Happy modding.


Oh one more thing. Motoworks is overpriced and makes minimal gains. Also sounds like crap. ;)

[WesDS450X]

'Motoworks is overpriced" how so? i paid 240 bucks w/shippin for a slip on, and i got everyone at the dunes tellin em how good my bike sounds AND my buddys got ktm450 with 3 mod fully built 3 mill stroker yfz(04) AND another built LTR450 with teh motor done by yoshi and im spankin them all by atlest a quad length in drag racing.

[ltr311]

My buddie has a carbon fiber full system and it sounds horrible. Didnt mean to hurt your feelings. The pipes just dont make power compared to others. Its just a fact. As far as the races go. It probably rider. My ltr with 3 mods will own a ds with big three. Three mod ds makes 46-48whp with weak torque. Ltr with same mods make 48-51whp and big torque. It is what is it.

Have a good night. I love the ds but its just no power house.

[joeyds450x]

Originally posted by hotshotgoal30
so i guess we are all back at square one. lol which pipe to get? i dont really like the looks of the ron woods. im thinking motoworks alot of people are satisfied. but as you said the hmf looks nice too. when you get it you have to let me know how loud it is. does everyone think its necissary to get the full slip on? i mean arnt our pipes already good? how much will we benefit really from changing the whole system vs a slip on?

i got the hmf ballance slip on and its insane loud it around 104db without the quiet core and wayyy more power than stock i wish i could dyno it to see wut it rly makes for power

i do agree with everyone bout the motorworks soundin like crap lol i dnt rly like the looks either... but just my opinion so it dnt rly matter just throwin it out there

[JAKELTR450]

Here's a dasa for the ds450. i was there in september of 07 and saw this outside and took some pics with my camera phone. just read this topic and thought i should post these up.

i would call there everyday and ask if they make a pipe for the ds450. they obviously have made one. so if you guys show enough interest maybe they will begin making them.

[JAKELTR450]

another.

[WesDS450X]

lets see it then ltr311. go get it on film+switch riders and do the same race.

[TNT]

Originally posted by ltr311
My buddie has a carbon fiber full system and it sounds horrible. Didnt mean to hurt your feelings. The pipes just dont make power compared to others. Its just a fact. As far as the races go. It probably rider. My ltr with 3 mods will own a ds with big three. Three mod ds makes 46-48whp with weak torque. Ltr with same mods make 48-51whp and big torque. It is what is it.

Have a good night. I love the ds but its just no power house.

If you want to talk strictly power and torque and compare results remove the rider from the equation. Factor in room for dyno operator and set up error on any given day with results that can vary from dyno to dyno, operator to operator. In that respect the dyno is only a tool, an indication, and not extremely accurate….Protec agreed with me just the other day w variance in the order of 3 hp since I said if you tell me you can get 58 I will dyno your results when I get your motor on three dynos and I better get at least 55 if I pay for 58….Still waiting for a bid I may have scared them away…..lol!

Now factor in the racer and the type of racing. Look at Cody Miller, John Natalie, Lawson, Hendricks, Can am pro's with proven results that the DS does make power ITR311….you get so wrapped up on YOUR hp/torque numbers even when a lot of times they don't make sense technically, devy pro set-ups and results I have seen and make erroneous statements that the DS does not make power when in "fact" it does, don't neglect race results and variables in dyno results. They other criteria you fail to mention in your comparison is reliability, what good is power if it is unreliable?

Now lets put it all together...At the pro level at least in top 5, on pro interviews I have seen they admit the riding abilities are close to the same it's the bikes power and mistakes that win or loose. Watch Cody Miller on a DS next season if you want to see power!!! He came out of the amature(pro-am) ranks and is moving up fast on a 1st year DS in 08, Natalie with a ton injuries same thing. Look at the pro bikes for pipes and mods you know they are not racing at that level with junk! They may get the most resent designs but those models are usually made available to the public the following year and offer plenty of power for the non-national-pro.

[ltr311]

How bout you do some research before you spit out a bunch of nonsense. Those factory bikes have a completely reshaped head. Talk to johnny at dasa and ask him about the many many hours that goes into the added of material and reshaping of the head to get it to work. Dasa, atp and several others have labeled the can am head as a TRAIN WRECK. lol those bikes can not even be compared to production machines. I live on the track and at the dunes. Everything I see at the dyno corrilates to the *** pounding ds's get there. The ds is light and someone what fast but in the overall big scheme of things it needs a better motor. The head is trash! Thats where these 4 stroke motors get their power. So you do the math. I dont need you to tell me anything I dont already knwo about the machine. Ive ridden bolt on ds's and built ds's/ You have a slip on and want to preach to me about fast! LOL Ive been riding and building fast 450s since they came out. I dont need to listen to you. Ive had two 60whp bikes myself and build quite a few more.Thats all the convincing I need. :rolleyes: Have a good day. Im done arguing with someone who doesnt know what the fack he is talking about

[TNT]

I talked to DASA about a month ago and that’s not the story I got and for all the many many man hours they put into the head the price they shot me for a complete motor(not far in cost to others(Hon/YAM/Suk)) they would be taking a huge loss, not only financially but their reputation for a reliable DS motor would go to pot which means less business, less money!!!! The only additional man hours they quoted me(couple) was in setting the CAM degrees. I'm doing the math and it don't add up?? I will call them today I need to talk to them anyway.

Now for a super know it all DYNO God lol like you that fails to list all the KTM and LTR manufacturing flaws along with the DS, I ask what is your purpose in coming out here saying so many bad things about the DS? Lets see KTM motors blow, ltr trannies blow!....what I heard but I don't know first hand.

Your allright just wanted to give some chit! Bring it to KS my boy will be glad to give you a tour around the MX track on a stock DS450(no slip on btw) like he did a 3 mod ltr and several YAMS/HON full mods last weekend and will again in about a week….

Oh and BTW exactly how many DS heads can you attest to that have failed, why and where, and exactly why are you calling them a "train wreck", and exactly what is the reshaping that is requried and why? I'm sure with all your knowledge you can expalin to us…now go get a DS on your dyno and come back with a full report….lol! I like to run it by DASA before I call them…Protec and Rage too, Rossier too, and ATP and I WILL!!
:blah:

[hotshotgoal30]

so sossier or motoworks? that is my new question. lol

[ltr311]

Just call dasa and ask Johnny how he best describes the head. Like I said before I like the machine. The motor just needs some help. Call atp also. They will tell you the same thing.

Also ask dasa about how much it would cost to make the head work properly. They can make it work ok for 500-750 but to make it right. 1000-1250. Ask them dont take my word. Call and talk to johnny today and dont bs around the question. Ask him specificly if the head could be described as a (TRAIN WRECK) compared to the other 450s. lol

The truth hurts brotha. And trust me you arent gonna school me anywhere. You dont even know how I ride. LOL your funny calling someone out you dont even know. Go ride your stocker and have fun.

[ltr311]

Originally posted by hotshotgoal30
so sossier or motoworks? that is my new question. lol

ill post some graphs for you sir. Im dynoing another ds tonight.

My recommendation. Rossier no doubt. It will blow the doors off the motoworks. Its a nice 4 step desigh with much better transitions. The motoworks only has one step. Equals less bottom mid and top. Its simple math. Good luck sir.

[dbkbushwacker]

Originally posted by hotshotgoal30
so sossier or motoworks? that is my new question. lol

Haven't you read the posts, were telling you motoworks does bad on the dyno. Everyone is recommending the Ron wood, Rossier or HMf.

[hotshotgoal30]

yeah but threads can be decieving. one guy says motorworks is the best thing since sliced bread and another says ron woods and so on and so forth. i think alot of people are just loyal to their decission. im looking for facts, truth, tests, results. anyone can say anything. i could buy an fmf and put it on my quad and say to myself oh yeah i can feel a difference and then tell everyone how great it is but untill you have compared them side by side, same bike, same dyno same tester do we really know?

[TNT]

Originally posted by ltr311
Just call dasa and ask Johnny how he best describes the head. Like I said before I like the machine. The motor just needs some help. Call atp also. They will tell you the same thing.

Also ask dasa about how much it would cost to make the head work properly. They can make it work ok for 500-750 but to make it right. 1000-1250. Ask them dont take my word. Call and talk to johnny today and dont bs around the question. Ask him specificly if the head could be described as a (TRAIN WRECK) compared to the other 450s. lol

The truth hurts brotha. And trust me you arent gonna school me anywhere. You dont even know how I ride. LOL your funny calling someone out you dont even know. Go ride your stocker and have fun.

Your just sore you didn't get that deal on the DS and ended up with that time bomb ticking KTM motor with a carb that couldn't keep 14.1:1 fuel air if your life depended on it…….lol! Geez I'll talk to Johnney while I'm at it about what it takes to keep the KTM motor from blowing up!!!! Lol!…..lets do the math, new KTM motor minus rework DS head work….….Hmmmmmmmmm? = A $3,000 dollar saving's DS wins!!! LMAO!

Hotshot: No you don't know don't take anyone's word for nothing out here, all kinds of factors can change dyno results from barometric pressure, to humidity, air density, that enters in the air intake, combustion can, to the exhaust and the air flow system...you all have noticed the power differences due to atmospheric conditions. You can find deviations in atmospheric conditions on the order of 2-3-hp just in the amount of time it takes to swap a pipe out…..yes I am speculating but think about it how a internal combustion engine works it's very reliant on intake air especially the DS rotax engine. I bet Mr 311 has a formula to equate barometric pressure, humidity, and air density to HP and Torque, right? Loll! Dyno results are just one factor of many to consider, and if you really want to know find a dyno by your own home where you race often, or if you are getting good results from a pipe by test riding noone can argue with that, don't listen to people on forums. I use dynos to tune my quad and that’s where it ends doesn't mean the numbers I got that day on the dyno are exactly the same I got on the track with different operating conditions. It is even possible to improve on the track what I got on a dyno it the pressure is up and with an EFI that’s holds even more true….

[hotshotgoal30]

tnt check your box

[WesDS450X]

well honestly if the motoworks pipe does suck like you say, i dont care im happy with the power gains for 240 bucks. ill get my ds dyno'd soon when taxes come back, whats the best tires to dyno it with? whoops forgot to add, what kind of numbers do u think a 3 mod ds puts out with no airbox?

[TNT]

Originally posted by hotshotgoal30
tnt check your box

There are a lot of good pipes these days that produce low noise and minimum back pressures and power. Many metropolitan areas and GNC's are now requiring low DB, 99-104(pros 99). I don't think you'll find a lot of variances these days between pipes the technology has improved drastically in the past few years, power to DB curve….and like I said there are many factors that have an effect on Dyno results. Listen to what riders say that have first hands on the track experience with pipes and look at cost and looks if you choose and if you are racing DB restricted areas consider that. A pipe is not going to make or break a win if you are racing….just pick one you like and go ride.

[ltr311]

All the numbers I throw out are corrected numbers. So yeah your statements just are based of opinion with no fact to back it. Im throwing out hard fact and the only come back you have it what you think. Good luck with your ds. Hopefully one day my stock ktm will meet you and your end to all end ds on the track. Im show how good the back of the ktm really looks! ;)

That is if your clutch will last a whole moto one you mod it.

[WesDS450X]

i got 130hours on my stock 08 clutch!! and i abuse the **** outta it, i plan on abusing the **** outta it tell it finally gives up, at this rate it might be 250-300++ hours before it goes out, and im doin rev limiter 3rd gear dumps at 4stroke wars at the dunes and its holding up just fine.

[ScottB125]

I have always thought the Rossier would be good. Those guys have delt with the Rotax motors alot.


ltr311, did those guys say what makes the head so bad? Just from eyeing it when my TB was off, it looked pretty good. The short side looked really nice compared to a traditional head.

[TNT]

That ltr311 your cant trust him for nuttin, he gets on here and talks a lot of dirt about DS's, fact this, fact that, "don't want to debate I know this and that, blah, blah,blah….when the only fact is he has none……I mean we're listening to guy that owns a KTM and LTR not a DS….he's out to corrupt us all! lol! Let em out front that way when his KTM blows unibomber style we don't go down with em! Lol!

Anthoney is his name and the DS is not his game! :D

[Quadevil]

Originally posted by TNT1
Your just sore you didn't get that deal on the DS and ended up with that time bomb ticking KTM motor with a carb that couldn't keep 14.1:1 fuel air if your life depended on it…….lol!

Of course!!
Now lets all look at DAKAR and see that 6 CAN-AM's were at the start and 1 KTM 525XC was at the start.
After 10 stages, only 2 CAN-AM's survived and *magically* :rolleyes: that KTM 525XC still keeps going. That says a lot no? :scary:

Time bomb KTM? hahahaha just by looking at the 2 wheels we see who is the best :devil:

[hotshotgoal30]

what is the point? who really gives a ****? every quad has problems no? we own DS450's, quite possibly one of the best atv's ever built, and the ktm is a great quad to. but i belive this discussion was about DASA and their exhaust and about other people trying to get some information about the exhaust options out there? am i right?

[TNT]

Originally posted by Quadevil
Of course!!
Now lets all look at DAKAR and see that 6 CAN-AM's were at the start and 1 KTM 525XC was at the start.
After 10 stages, only 2 CAN-AM's survived and *magically* :rolleyes: that KTM 525XC still keeps going. That says a lot no? :scary:

Time bomb KTM? hahahaha just by looking at the 2 wheels we see who is the best :devil:

Wait a minute now let me take this one and defend BRP, Bombardia an Aerospace/Aircraft Company a 2-wheel KTM is not even a drop in the bucket more less a first year mx quad….For the additional $2,300 KTM retail in the DS motor it wins hands down.

Get some advice on pipes from DASA since they are not even selling one they’ll give ya the straight shot…they dyno’d them before.

Been fun gentlemen but DS rules that’s a “fact”!!….
:rolleyes: :blah:

[WesDS450X]

haha ltr311 i found your video of your ktm on youtube!! lolol roflmfao way to go! high five! this only happens to KTM's LOLOLOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j_cWplJQ8M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j_cWplJQ8M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j_cWplJQ8M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j_cWplJQ8M

[Quadevil]

Originally posted by hotshotgoal30
what is the point? who really gives a ****? every quad has problems no? we own DS450's, quite possibly one of the best atv's ever built, and the ktm is a great quad to. but i belive this discussion was about DASA and their exhaust and about other people trying to get some information about the exhaust options out there? am i right?

I agree, i'm sorry if i was a bit offtopic but i just can't pass on someone saying KTM is a ticking bomb :rolleyes:

DS is a great quad, KTM is a great quad and the best quad for any person is the one that suits you better, right?
But KTM XC won 95% of magazine shootouts last year and was crowned as the best sport quad.
Now in therms of competition, we can look at GNCC and see what of those 2 was the best and had less problems...

[WesDS450X]

magazine shootouts can be rigged lol.

[Quadevil]

Originally posted by WesDS450X
magazine shootouts can be rigged lol.

Yes they can. They are worth what they are worth...

[TNT]

Originally posted by WesDS450X
haha ltr311 i found your video of your ktm on youtube!! lolol roflmfao way to go! high five! this only happens to KTM's LOLOLOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j_cWplJQ8M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j_cWplJQ8M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j_cWplJQ8M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j_cWplJQ8M

Wes thats the best laugh I had all day besides his post...pretty sure the motor fell out & caught fire when it flipped on him....LMAO!

J/k: Your allright 311! lol!

[hotshotgoal30]

its fine it just gets annoying when people come into the discussions and try to down the quad that we all have. and then say things are breaking or going wrong ect, ect. its not just this one its a few others as well. im not denying the fact that ktm is an awesome bike they really are and you pay for that. can -am is great too and thats what i could afford so it doesnt bother me that ktm has a bigger motor or aftermarket a-arms or w/e else it may have. both quads are great, probably the best out there so cant we leave it at that? it just seems stupid for people to try and bash others quads. its like going into a a ford forum when i own a dodge and saying how much better my truck is. what do you think is going to happen? lol

[k4f5x0r]

im sorry i like the can am, but you guys need to get off your high horse. KTM is a AMAZING bike. post this in the open forum. have a poll on which bike do you like more and see which will win.


i guarantee you the KTM will win. better motor,shocks,tires,rims,etc etc stock.

[ltr311]

Thousands of ltrs, cam ams, yamahass and hondas motors have blown, dude get off it. It comes with the terrain. Lets grow up here little fella. Im trying to help you and all you can do is be a biatch about it. If you have nothing imformative to add then go away. Ive done it and will continue to do it> I have a love for the sport and helping others. You have an obsession with you ds and thats fine. Its not the best out there and thats all there is to it. Im glad your happy with it, thats all that matters. Have a good day.

[ltr311]

Originally posted by ScottB125
I have always thought the Rossier would be good. Those guys have delt with the Rotax motors alot.


ltr311, did those guys say what makes the head so bad? Just from eyeing it when my TB was off, it looked pretty good. The short side looked really nice compared to a traditional head.

yeah the problem is canam went to far with with the ports. Apparenty builders are having to add a bunch of material and reshape them to get a nice curve. Peak numbers are easy to get with the head stock but solid power and torque is another issue. The motors have potential but from the factory can am went a little crazy on the port work. Talk to atp or dasa they will confirm.

Just to set the record straight I love the canam and would love one to be in my garage. I made a choice on the ktm over the ds. Was better suited for me. I love how the canam jumps and with some suspension and motor can be made to be a bad biatch. Ill keep posting my findings for you guys. Like I said Im tuning a setup tonight.

ron woods pipe and intake
dasa mid cams and cp 13.6. Tuning with pc. Ill keep you guys posted. Seems to run better. Ill also post graphs of this machines power of my ktm stock. Just so you guys can see the difference. bone stock ktm over mild build ktm. Should be interesting info. Machines weight about the same. I weighed my ktm at 360lbs today and my ltr450 at a whooping 410lbs. OUCH

[WesDS450X]

no quad is perect, they all have there pro's and con's. lets just leave it at that

[ScottB125]

That makes sense, I could see the cross section being too large....and that is why the bike likes to rev and has no bottom-end. I think its an awesome foundation though. The air drops right in.

[TNT]

Originally posted by ltr311
yeah the problem is canam went to far with with the ports. Apparenty builders are having to add a bunch of material and reshape them to get a nice curve. Peak numbers are easy to get with the head stock but solid power and torque is another issue. The motors have potential but from the factory can am went a little crazy on the port work. Talk to atp or dasa they will confirm.

Just to set the record straight I love the canam and would love one to be in my garage. I made a choice on the ktm over the ds. Was better suited for me. I love how the canam jumps and with some suspension and motor can be made to be a bad biatch. Ill keep posting my findings for you guys. Like I said Im tuning a setup tonight.

ron woods pipe and intake
dasa mid cams and cp 13.6. Tuning with pc. Ill keep you guys posted. Seems to run better. Ill also post graphs of this machines power of my ktm stock. Just so you guys can see the difference. bone stock ktm over mild build ktm. Should be interesting info. Machines weight about the same. I weighed my ktm at 360lbs today and my ltr450 at a whooping 410lbs. OUCH

Well thats interesting I did not get that story form Johnney at DASA. He said they add epoxy to get a better flow, never said anything about a ton of hours needed to get the flow DS specific...He did say the Cams are difficult to get dialed and quoted me addition man hours and cost there compared to HON AND YAMS ETC.

[TNT]

Originally posted by ScottB125
That makes sense, I could see the cross section being too large....and that is why the bike likes to rev and has no bottom-end. I think its an awesome foundation though. The air drops right in.

Not true what DASA does is enlarge the filter, intake, throttle body and butterfly valve, port with epoxy.....Now that I know whats being said out here I will call tomorrow and ask Johnney again if he said all this.

[ltr311]

Originally posted by TNT1
Not true what DASA does is enlarge the filter, intake, throttle bottle and butterfly valve, port with epoxy.....Now that I know whats being said out here I will call tomorrow and ask Johnney again if he said all this.

He told me specifically it would cost 1000-1250 to make the head work how they like it to work. Thats about double what it costs on an ltr450. Just for comparison. Not saying the ltr is better. LOL which it is! ;)

[GE4x4]

Originally posted by Quadevil
Of course!!
Now lets all look at DAKAR and see that 6 CAN-AM's were at the start and 1 KTM 525XC was at the start.
After 10 stages, only 2 CAN-AM's survived and *magically* :rolleyes: that KTM 525XC still keeps going. That says a lot no? :scary:

Time bomb KTM? hahahaha just by looking at the 2 wheels we see who is the best :devil:


But what's even better, 3 of the 4 Outlaws are in the top 10 after 10 stages. Not bad for a 525 engine.:D

[TNT]

Originally posted by ltr311
He told me specifically it would cost 1000-1250 to make the head work how they like it to work. Thats about double what it costs on an ltr450. Just for comparison. Not saying the ltr is better. LOL which it is! ;)

So are they saying the ports are the cause of the all the "head issues"?. A port job gives what 5-6 hp whos going to pay that much to get it right, a pro? like any quad.....or are you saying he meant to get it mechanically correct and more reliable? I cant see how ports would make it more reliable unless the wall thickness was low.....what exactly are you saying?

[TNT]

Yeah he told me I could add a bigger injector and all kinds of pro mods spend all kinds of money like ANY quad that goes to that level. :rolleyes:

[Blizzard24]

I spoke in length with Rossier about these motors, he stated the same thing LTR311 is stating, he said it takes a lot to get the power out of the DS450, but the power is there for the right engine builders.

I am guessing a lot of epoxy in the head to get the right shape for the intake. If you want the best handling quad, you may need a little more to get the power out of the engine. I'll take the best handling quad on the market!

[TNT]

Originally posted by Blizzard24
I spoke in length with Rossier about these motors, he stated the same thing LTR311 is stating, he said it takes a lot to get the power out of the DS450, but the power is there for the right engine builders.

I am guessing a lot of epoxy in the head to get the right shape for the intake. If you want the best handling quad, you may need a little more to get the power out of the engine. I'll take the best handling quad on the market!

Rossier didn't tell me much good about the motor and he could only get 52 hp....DASA 55-58(64 tops w/ $), Protec 58 best they ever got....

[TNT]

All I got to say most of the big engine builders have port jobs that are either very expensive or not for sale. Rage for example offers different levels of engine performance and reliability and each stage gets more expensive….What Natalie and Miller get is not even for sale.

Also all quads have their weaknesses and areas that need more focus man hours and better after market parts….

[ScottB125]

With the port being large, air is lazy. Airflow is one thing, but velocity is king. I'm guessing they are expoxying the port floor to help increase velocity. This would really help the bottom end...and if done right, the top end.

I wouldn't mind trying to find a head and really taking a look at one.

[crixal]

just bought the rossier pipe & intake. tell you what i think saturday.

[hotshotgoal30]

Originally posted by crixal
just bought the rossier pipe & intake. tell you what i think saturday.

awesome can wait to hear about it. im seriously looking at that setup. im kinda wondering ow loud it is as well

[JAKELTR450]

I have talked to ltr311 and the guy in my opinion is not a biased guy. he told me the best handling bike he ever rode was a ds450.

i also own a ltr and 505sx. i love my ktm way more. the only draw back is the carb. i personally enjoyed the fi on the ltr better.

i used to own a ds650. and i must say that was the most reliable quad i ever had. the thing was bulletproof. i'm sure the ds450 is great also, but i'm sure they will improve their design, and in another year or two you will have a awesome 2010-2011 ds450. even when the first ds650's came out they had some issues. but brp fixed and addressed the issues. much better than honda. yamaha, suzuki ever did. suzuki and honda both took a step backwards. they tried to make the ltr and trx faster and better, but instead they lost reliabilty. the 08 ltr transmission sucks worse than the 06-07. the trx motor is also less reliable and the front a-arm spindle combo is worse. pro's still use the 05 trx's. and if you have 06+ trx's you want to have 05 arms and spindle for better suspension.

hopefully can-am brp does like it did with the ds650 and make improvements without sacrificing the good things about the ds450.

and i hope i have good luck with my new purchase. i know down the road something will fail, but that's the game we are all in.

[crixal]

never seen one in person either. everyone has heard an hmf and i've been told it's louder than an hmf. i like a louder pipe. i only ride one place and sound isn't an issue. i hope the gains are good. i'll prolly get a baseline run on friday and then another when i get the pipe.

[hotshotgoal30]

do you know if there is anyway to quiet it down? some places i ride it might be an issue. i thought the hmf was loud? or isnt it to bad?

[dbkbushwacker]

Originally posted by hotshotgoal30
do you know if there is anyway to quiet it down? some places i ride it might be an issue. i thought the hmf was loud? or isnt it to bad?

You can get a quiet core for the HMF pipe and the Rossier.

[crixal]

ya, any hmf i have heard is really loud. i think they have a quiet core for it. give them a call, they are very friendly and are willing to give you all the knowledge they have. hopefull their pipe is as good as their customer service, lol.

[crixal]

hotshot, there is a few dyno charts on ds450hq if you wanna see a few.

[outtagas]

I put a HMF slip on the ds 450 and it was loud! But fit and finish was really good - you really really have to push to get it on the head pipe - but i like that no leaks... Power increase was good, except i bought the quiet core and tried it and it killed the power back down to what felt like the stock muffler. The plus is the quiet core can be installed in less than a minute, and sounds like stock muffler quiet.:D

[joeyds450x]

Originally posted by hotshotgoal30
do you know if there is anyway to quiet it down? some places i ride it might be an issue. i thought the hmf was loud? or isnt it to bad? 104db neighbors tell me they can hear it n they r a little over a mile away

[joeyds450x]

Originally posted by TNT1
That ltr311 your cant trust him for nuttin, he gets on here and talks a lot of dirt about DS's, fact this, fact that, "don't want to debate I know this and that, blah, blah,blah….when the only fact is he has none……I mean we're listening to guy that owns a KTM and LTR not a DS….he's out to corrupt us all! lol! Let em out front that way when his KTM blows unibomber style we don't go down with em! Lol!

Anthoney is his name and the DS is not his game! :D

sounds like tnt1 dosnt like ltr311...LOL

im not gna lie but i am tired of readind huge posts of tnts "speculations" anybody can tlk outa there a**... but im prolly gna go wit the guys that got the proof not "speculations"... i mean i dnt think anybody who read your posts got anything outa it or used any information in them... i bet people go with the guys that got the proof and the dyno graphs

[TNT]

Originally posted by joeyds450x
sounds like tnt1 dosnt like ltr311...LOL

I like 311 don't take my jokes out of context….I just don't agree with everything he says…..


Originally posted by joeyds450x


im not gna lie but i am tired of readind huge posts of tnts "speculations" anybody can tlk outa there a**... but im prolly gna go wit the guys that got the proof not "speculations"... i mean i dnt think anybody who read your posts got anything outa it or used any information in them... i bet people go with the guys that got the proof and the dyno graphs

Most of what I post is not speculations is based on years 25 to be exact of Engineering experience since nobody is interested in learning more about how the DS functions I won't bother posting that info anymore. It's not easy to explain at times in a short post. Sorry you don't understand I was only trying to help. I was putting together a full explaination of the DS450 fuel injection system too but since there is no interest in learning I wont post it(thanks DGS for the manual drawing and info).

[TNT]

Originally posted by ScottB125
With the port being large, air is lazy. Airflow is one thing, but velocity is king. I'm guessing they are expoxying the port floor to help increase velocity. This would really help the bottom end...and if done right, the top end.

I wouldn't mind trying to find a head and really taking a look at one.

Actually in the ports it's all about pressure in the intake and velocity in the exhaust. I'd explain exactly how the port is shaped to do that but Joey above say there is no interest.

[ScottB125]

Originally posted by TNT1
Actually in the ports it's all about pressure in the intake and velocity in the exhaust. I'd explain exactly how the port is shaped to do that but Joey above say there is no interest.

I'm not sure I would use the term pressure...to me that sounds like you have a turbo/blower forcing air in. Velocity is also important on the intake side.

Explain away...I'm all for it.

[joeyds450x]

i didnt say there was no interest...im just saying how many people read wut you said and quickly went to the garage and applied anything that you said... id like to see wut you find but im not gna use the info unless you have proof like ltr311... id rly like to see wut your ds will make for hp when you do all your motor work... whos gna do it 4 ya?

i wish i could get mine dynoed with the hmf ballance slip on n wire cut/ no lid.. ltr311 have you dynoed a ds like this before?

[ltr311]

No sir. but my educated guess would be 45-46whp or so.

[dbkbushwacker]

theres new dyno sheets posted up on ds450hq

[joeyds450x]

Originally posted by ltr311
No sir. but my educated guess would be 45-46whp or so.

well thats enough for me im just a once in a while racer in c class, thats enough for me for now. wut is stock again??...this is a dumb question i should rly know this lol

[ScottB125]

Is there anyone out there that knows ALOT about these Rotax motors? The DS shares its top end with the Rotax v990 motor. Does anyone know if a cylinder from a V990 will bolt directly to the DS? I know the V990 displaces 498ccm/cylinder vs the DS's 449ccm. Depending on how Rotax did the motors, you could possibly have a 500ccm DS motor. I'm unsure though, its hard to find the bore and stroke of these motors.

[DGS]

Originally posted by TNT1
I like 311 don't take my jokes out of context….I just don't agree with everything he says…..



Most of what I post is not speculations is based on years 25 to be exact of Engineering experience since nobody is interested in learning more about how the DS functions I won't bother posting that info anymore. It's not easy to explain at times in a short post. Sorry you don't understand I was only trying to help. I was putting together a full explaination of the DS450 fuel injection system too but since there is no interest in learning I wont post it(thanks DGS for the manual drawing and info).


Hey TNT1, i would be interested in hearing what you have to say..!!! These forums are about gathering as much info as you can and its up to the person to use the info or not....

Let me know what you come up with TNT1

[TNT]

Originally posted by DGS
Hey TNT1, i would be interested in hearing what you have to say..!!! These forums are about gathering as much info as you can and its up to the person to use the info or not....

Let me know what you come up with TNT1

Ok I know alot of what I post is more from a design engineers point of few, I always or when I can look at equations when they apply or other tech info before I post. Sometimes it's hard simplifying it...My hopes here is that someone will learn something and like you said the more you know and better understand your quad the better it can help you understand it when things go wrong for example, troubleshooting, or maybe the info I hope will help someone reading better design a product for us....

Now that I'm done dealing with LTR311 that ding dong dyno dude lol I'll focus on the EFI....got to say at first glance weird the quad system but I'll do some research since I want to know myself and start a thread on it soon.....

I'm going to start breaking down my 09 this weekend decided tonight and I thinking I and a couple local buddies will do the mods ourselves, heck with DASA, Protec, etc....and we got a brand new dyno coming so I can work close with my guru engine builder and dyno man to see what we can do with the DS....Maybe I'll start a thread and keep everyone informed on that too, take some photos and what not.....I want everyone that owns a DS to be informed and fast....I think Can am does more for the sport of ATV racing then most one big reason why I purchased one.....

[hotshotgoal30]

yeah they have and this isnt their first ride on this bus. i mean look at the past they have had. look at the other accomplishments such as the REV platform and the lightest snowmobile made, best power to weight ratio and still continue to pump out 2 stroke snomobile motors that get 35-40 miles a gallon and already have emissions beat till 2013 or somthing. not to mention their watercraft need i say more? 255 horsepower. 0-50 mph in 2.9 seconds for those of you that dont know thats faster than a ferrari. i know these arnt made by the "can-am" but its all the same company. they really know what they are doing and as far as im concened they are on top in every motorsport they participate in. so i really dont care that maybe my quad isn the fastest or doent make the most horsepower on the dyno because its a damn good machine and can only get better. and if it sounds like im on the pedastal well too bad. maybe some of the other companies can move ahead and they will be up there too. so congrats to can am and their quad because i love this thing and i love everything else they make. i have made alot of people belivers out of people who would never ride a ski doo or a seadoo or a can am and it doesnt take much. alright im done, it just isses me off sometimes when people are so quick to jump down our throats about these quads. the point is we all enjoy our quads thas the point so lets just have fun and go out and rip up the trails

[TNT]

Originally posted by hotshotgoal30
yeah they have and this isnt their first ride on this bus. i mean look at the past they have had. look at the other accomplishments such as the REV platform and the lightest snowmobile made, best power to weight ratio and still continue to pump out 2 stroke snowmobile motors that get 35-40 miles a gallon and already have emissions beat till 2013 or something. not to mention their watercraft need i say more? 255 horsepower. 0-50 mph in 2.9 seconds for those of you that dont know thats faster than a ferrari. i know these arnt made by the "can-am" but its all the same company. they really know what they are doing and as far as im concened they are on top in every motorsport they participate in. so i really dont care that maybe my quad isn the fastest or doent make the most horsepower on the dyno because its a damn good machine and can only get better. and if it sounds like im on the pedastal well too bad. maybe some of the other companies can move ahead and they will be up there too. so congrats to can am and their quad because i love this thing and i love everything else they make. i have made alot of people belivers out of people who would never ride a ski doo or a seadoo or a can am and it doesnt take much. alright im done, it just isses me off sometimes when people are so quick to jump down our throats about these quads. the point is we all enjoy our quads thas the point so lets just have fun and go out and rip up the trails

You should see the Aircraft Technology behind us it's incredible....anyone that understood it would NEVER get on here and have a single bad word to say about Bombardier, it's subdivisions BRP, and Can am...the engineers and tech people at this company as a whole blows absolute smoke around anyone on this forum that thinks they have 'facts' against the products.....just stop listening to all the bs dyno's results included.....I as an 25 yr Aerospace Engineer, Master Degreed and licensed A&P mechanic, can attest to the Bombardia/BRP incredible quad technology that most can't or respect, if they could they would back off listen and learn, and yes I am on a high horse so be it!! Got plenty of backing from a great company that I fully understand products from business jets to quads, Engineers and technicians I will defend and respect for their professionalism and outstanding products on many different platforms!!! :D

PS: BTW I don't work for Bombardier I work for Boeing one of the largest Aerospace Giants in the World.

[Dale512]

ScottB125, the Aprilia uses 67.5mm Stroke where the DS450 uses a 60.8mm Stroke, thats where the displacement difference would come from.

[TNT]

Originally posted by ScottB125
I'm not sure I would use the term pressure...to me that sounds like you have a turbo/blower forcing air in. Velocity is also important on the intake side.

Explain away...I'm all for it.

You hear of these guys that take their air box off to get more flow, some say on a dyno they get more horse.....on the track the filter is subjected to more dirt and clogs up faster...so whats the point?

On the DS I noticed it is a convergent duct air box(wider in rear than front). A convergent duct/nozzle is a aerodynamic design used in jet engine compression stages(intakes), by the use of cascade vanes on a rotating spool(split) to decrease velocity and increase pressure, the venturi tube concept, ......Throttle body and intake port if done properly should do the same thing....so the intake to me is all about vacuum and pressure, velocity to gain pressure, but if you take off the airbox you deal w/turbulance which can hinder velocity and furthermore on the track from a dirty filter.....now you tell me what you think...just my .02, I will verify it soon on a dyno and dirt track quad test but it should be the same otherwise an airbox is simpler/cheaper to mold plastic rectangular I don't see why brp did that....only way to tell is on a flow bench or wind tunnel really...

BTW: the turbnine section(exhaust) just the opposite, increase velocity, decrease pressure...like and exhaust pipe is designed. Narrower port in front to wider one in rear. A divergent duct/nozzle/port.

[ScottB125]

With the airbox being off...it would depend on how long you rode and how dusty/muddy it was. I've had my DS on our car dyno and it did make more power with the lid/seat off. The motor wants more air...and if its there, its going to use it. The air box is a restriction while sitting still. Porting my TB helped too. A motor is an air pump...so anything you can do to get more air in...its going to make more power. There are so many things going on in a head...I can't even begin to understand. As far as the airfilter box design...I have no idea.

After finding out this motor shares the top end with the V990, I can see why the port is large....it was designed to feed a 500ccm, not a 450. It also makes sense why they are epoxying them. The large port would also explain why these bikes like to be rpm'd.

If you find anything about the EFI system, let me know. I tune alot of racecars, so I have a little more knowledge about that. What I know, its a speed density setup. I think I have found the MAP sensor, if so, it would be a breeze to tune one of these if that's the case...its VE vs rpm. I'm sure they use a WOT table based of %TPS. If it doesn't have a MAP sensor, then most likely they are using the old Alpha-N setup..all based off TPS. If its like most motors, there is alot of power hiding in tuning.....we just need a way to get in the PCM.

[TNT]

Originally posted by ScottB125
With the airbox being off...it would depend on how long you rode and how dusty/muddy it was. I've had my DS on our car dyno and it did make more power with the lid/seat off. The motor wants more air...and if its there, its going to use it. The air box is a restriction while sitting still. Porting my TB helped too. A motor is an air pump...so anything you can do to get more air in...its going to make more power. There are so many things going on in a head...I can't even begin to understand. As far as the airfilter box design...I have no idea.

After finding out this motor shares the top end with the V990, I can see why the port is large....it was designed to feed a 500ccm, not a 450. It also makes sense why they are epoxying them. The large port would also explain why these bikes like to be rpm'd.

If you find anything about the EFI system, let me know. I tune alot of racecars, so I have a little more knowledge about that. What I know, its a speed density setup. I think I have found the MAP sensor, if so, it would be a breeze to tune one of these if that's the case...its VE vs rpm. I'm sure they use a WOT table based of %TPS. If it doesn't have a MAP sensor, then most likely they are using the old Alpha-N setup..all based off TPS. If its like most motors, there is alot of power hiding in tuning.....we just need a way to get in the PCM.

Pretty interesting stuff.....Ya I can see on a dyno more clean air to the filter producing more power especially under engine load and more air requirements.....what would be interesting to see is what happens to power if one could somehow blow some dusty sandy gritty yucky mud/ dirt at the filter and see how fast power drops......Hopefully not less than a 15 min moto......long XC races or mud forget it! imo! I think drilling holes in the box would be just as effective on the track.

Look at your stock box and intake shrowd and you'll see how it narrows down when it gets the the TB.

So what we are saying then is the ports should work pretty good with a big bore on the DS450, like a 490 is what I'm thinking...I heard they make a 490 I have not checked yet. Couple that with a bigger injector and cams and we should rip! I did hear something about a new thrust washer under the valve springs in 09 to make it common with V990.

Actually thats what I found weird is it has a MAP but in the intake not the manifold and it's in a casting intake surrounded by rubber intake, also ambient air pressure and temp sensor(AAPTS) in the air box....I'm thinking the AAPTS is there to read barometric pressure and temp then the MAP reads a pressure differential and sends it to the ECU, don't know for sure yet...just my first thought. Now if you take that sensor out of the box I guess just find a new location for it shouldnt matter where it is but I wonder if dust would mess it up cause a false reading and fuel delivery? I need to find out how that sensor works and what it is sensitive to. I'm pretty green at EFI and a carb guy but I do some diggin and let you know maybe we can figure er out. I was looking at how the ECM works last week trying to figure it out. what type it is. It has input from TPS, CPS, CTS too.

Have you found any good reliable cams or can recommend a big injector for this motor?

I think your right there is a lot of power to be unleashed in this motor it just a matter of better understanding it......theres more money to made in HONS, YAMS, SUKs so there isn't as many looking into it. Thanks for head info good find!!

[ScottB125]

Originally posted by TNT1
Pretty interesting stuff.....Ya I can see on a dyno more clean air to the filter producing more power especially under engine load and more air requirements.....what would be interesting to see is what happens to power if one could somehow blow some dusty sandy gritty yucky mud/ dirt at the filter and see how fast power drops......Hopefully not less than a 15 min moto......long XC races or mud forget it! imo! I think drilling holes in the box would be just as effective on the track.

Look at your stock box and intake shrowd and you'll see how it narrows down when it gets the the TB.

So what we are saying then is the ports should work pretty good with a big bore on the DS450, like a 490 is what I'm thinking...I heard they make a 490 I have not checked yet. Couple that with a bigger injector and cams and we should rip! I did hear something about a new thrust washer under the valve springs in 09 to make it common with V990.

Actually thats what I found weird is it has a MAP but in the intake not the manifold and it's in a casting intake surrounded by rubber intake, also ambient air pressure and temp sensor(AAPTS) in the air box....I'm thinking the AAPTS is there to read barometric pressure and temp then the MAP reads a pressure differential and sends it to the ECU, don't know for sure yet...just my first thought. Now if you take that sensor out of the box I guess just find a new location for it shouldnt matter where it is but I wonder if dust would mess it up cause a false reading and fuel delivery? I need to find out how that sensor works and what it is sensitive to. I'm pretty green at EFI and a carb guy but I do some diggin and let you know maybe we can figure er out. I was looking at how the ECM works last week trying to figure it out. what type it is. It has input from TPS, CPS, CTS too.

Have you found any good reliable cams or can recommend a big injector for this motor?

I think your right there is a lot of power to be unleashed in this motor it just a matter of better understanding it......theres more money to made in HONS, YAMS, SUKs so there isn't as many looking into it. Thanks for head info good find!!

The MAP sensor takes care of your pressure reading and generally the temp sensor is your coolant temp. They also have an incoming air temp, that is in the inlet trac.

I don't know much about cams for atv motors. Applying what I know about cars to this motor, I bet this motor is very sensitive to your vavle events. Too large a cam and you slow the air down that much more. I'm guessing it doesn't like alot of overlap. This is all speculation though.

With the injector, I have no idea what size the stock one is. It would all depend on the duty cycle as to if you needed a larger one. You generally do not want to get over 80%, but I have seen cars that are 105%.....on the edge..lol