ds 450 high elevation

[dsbomb]

i have a 450 with the rossier pipe and filter and wire cut. it runs great here in ky. where the elevation is almost 0. i wondered if anyone knows how it will be in idaho in june where the elevation is 5500.:rolleyes:

[TNT]

Depends, In theory it should run rich since there is less air density at altitude, but that depends on the temperature and humidity, if it is elevated it will cause more density and you may be alright. The air mass flow sensor in the TB sensitivity and ECU will determine the fuel MAP limits . To be safe you could go to the dealer and they can adjust the MAP for altitude then your range should be ok. If you plan on changing altitude like this often it’s best to own a PC.

[crixal]

ya, i agree w/ tnt. how does it run w/ the rossier pipe? do you like it?

[ds450racer]

surely it shouldnt make any difference? Its fuel injected so there no jets the ecu should just sort it out itself.

[dsbomb]

it runs great, the pipe and filter with the wire cut gives it all kinds of lowend power, and it is really quick on the throttle

[dsbomb]

im hoping your right ds450racer, but i saw 700 raptors there last year and they had to do a little reprogramming for the elev.

[ds450racer]

I am 99.9% sure that there will be no problems. The only thing thta goes wrong when with elevation is the jetting. And the ecu sorts all that out as soon as it is switched on.

[grantmi]

Originally posted by TNT1
Depends, In theory it should run rich since there is less air density at altitude, but that depends on the temperature and humidity, if it is elevated it will cause more density and you may be alright. The air mass flow sensor in the TB sensitivity and ECU will determine the fuel MAP limits . To be safe you could go to the dealer and they can adjust the MAP for altitude then your range should be ok. If you plan on changing altitude like this often it’s best to own a PC.


FYI - the DS does NOT have a Mass Air Flow style fuel injection system.

You get a sticker if you can find a mass flow sensor on the quad.....you won't.

I know the Suzuki manual breaks down the calibration range for the LTR MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure, or other applicable acronym) sensor from 0-10k ft.

Anyone have a shop manual that would be willing to do a bit of research?

Lets try to determine the real answer, not make a bunch of incorrect assumptions.

[grantmi]

Does Can-Am ship the quads with different maps for Denver than they do in Florida?

[k4f5x0r]

no as far as i know. STOCK the fuel injection take in the humidity pressure air etc and then gives the amount of gas neccessary. after you add a pipe+powercommander then it

takes in the air and all of that, gives the amount of gas the MAP says to use and THEN adds in how much it will need for the air. this is why the pc3 plugs into the air sensor..


thats how it is on the kfx. not sure about the ds though

[ds450racer]

Originally posted by k4f5x0r
no as far as i know. STOCK the fuel injection take in the humidity pressure air etc and then gives the amount of gas neccessary. after you add a pipe+powercommander then it

takes in the air and all of that, gives the amount of gas the MAP says to use and THEN adds in how much it will need for the air. this is why the pc3 plugs into the air sensor..


thats how it is on the kfx. not sure about the ds though
should be the same

[TNT]

Originally posted by grantmi
FYI - the DS does NOT have a Mass Air Flow style fuel injection system.

You get a sticker if you can find a mass flow sensor on the quad.....you won't.

I know the Suzuki manual breaks down the calibration range for the LTR MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure, or other applicable acronym) sensor from 0-10k ft.

Anyone have a shop manual that would be willing to do a bit of research?

Lets try to determine the real answer, not make a bunch of incorrect assumptions.

I did provide the correct answer, own a PC or you can go to your dealer they have been given the capability to make altitude adjustments on stock motors. DSbomb since you have a after market pipe and filter(BRP book values no longer apply) you can only guess what will happen at altitude due to variables and it sounds like you have seen that first hand by 700's. If it were me I would not risk traveling that far to find out, I'd at least let the dealer adjust to the altitude and your probably be all right, not as good as you could be but good enough. If you get a PC theres are many curves you can download to a pc for free depending on how you want to perform, and they are only like $2-300, that’s what I will do soon.

__________________________________________________ __
For you Mr. Grantmi....you remind me of my son 19 always challenging everything I say.....lol! That’s cool!

You get so wrapped up on terms you fail to see the technical facts. Air sensors are mass flow sensors and MAP or BAP(barometric absolute pressure) is intake vacuum and is not needed for fuel delivery, the BAP sensor is usually located in the ECU, MAP intake manifold, air density(mass) and engine speed is the critical info for fuel delivery......read below,

As atmospheric pressure decreases with increasing altitude, vacuum must also decrease to maintain the same MAP in order to maintain the same torque output. This is accomplished by opening the engine's throttle more as altitude increases. However, the BAP learned at the beginning of the trip becomes obsolete as altitude changes.
Sometimes an engine control system will use both a BAP sensor and a MAP sensor to continuously maintain an accurate barometer and manifold vacuum. However, neither vacuum nor barometer are necessary for fuel determination, although they are helpful for other engine functions. The critical information is the air's density in the intake manifold, and the speed of the engine, i.e., the speed-density method.
The BAP sensor is often located within the ECU, and the MAP sensor is usually located near the intake manifold.


A manifold absolute pressure sensor (MAP) is one of the sensors used in an internal combustion engine's electronic control system. Engines that use a MAP sensor are typically fuel injected. The manifold absolute pressure sensor provides instantaneous manifold pressure information to the engine's electronic control unit (ECU). This is necessary to calculate air density and determine the engine's AIR MASS FLOW rate, which in turn is used to calculate the appropriate fuel flow. (See stoichiometry.)
The manifold absolute pressure measurement is used to meter fuel. The amount of fuel required is directly related to the mass of air entering the engine. (See stoichiometric.) The mass of air is proportional to the air density, which is proportional to the absolute pressure and inversely proportional to the absolute temperature. (See ideal gas law.) Engine speed determines the frequency, or rate, at which air mass is leaving the intake manifold and entering the cylinders.

(Engine Mass Airflow Rate) ˜ RPM × (Air Density)

or equivalently

(Engine Mass Airflow Rate) ˜ RPM × MAP / (absolute temperature)


TNT: All ECU's/air sensors will use , pressure, density, humidity, temperature or "air mass flow" to determine the fuel delivery. A close look at air density (temp, pressure, humidity...), you remember D=PRT?

The density of a mixture of dry air molecules and water vapor molecules may be expressed as:

D=Pd/Rd*T + Pv/Rv * T

where: D = density, kg/m3
Pd = pressure of dry air, Pascals
Pv= pressure of water vapor, Pascals
Rd = gas constant for dry air, J/(kg*degK) = 287.05
Rv = gas constant for water vapor, J/(kg*degK) = 461.495
T = temperature, degK = deg C + 273.15
To determine the density of the air, it is necessary to know is the actual air pressure (also known as absolute pressure, total air pressure, or station pressure), the water vapor pressure, and the temperature.

Look at all the vairibles, I don't know all the DS algorithms & 14 bit chip has, but I will assume not enough to calculate all these vairbles and run all the equations. You do make assumptions as in altimeters temperature is a constant. If you had a stock DS you go use book values but BRP made some assumptions or constants and they are not 100% accurate. The "open loop" EFI and throttle body FI systems lacks a O2 sensor and are not the most efficient compared to multi-port.

I'm waiting for a 09 manual but from what I can tell my air sensor is in my throttle body not my manifold.

[dsbomb]

hey guys thanks for the info. does anyone know where i can get the program for a pc to remap or where i can get the downloads. i checked with my dealer and they wont sell the program, they want you to bring it to them!!!!!!!!!

[ProspectorJim]

Originally posted by dsbomb
hey guys thanks for the info. does anyone know where i can get the program for a pc to remap or where i can get the downloads. i checked with my dealer and they wont sell the program, they want you to bring it to them!!!!!!!!!

Do you have a powercommander? I don't think it takes any extra software.

[grantmi]

LOL....now this is some information that I like. Looks like you have been using Google. In this case we are both partially right as corrected by your most recent post).

Yes....a speed density system (quads and pre ~1990 cars) utilize a density sensor in conjunction with the intake air temp, throttle position and other sensors to determine the mass of air from these readings and a pre-set table providing velocity estimates from the engine RPM. It was a nice explanation of how a speed density system works.

A "Mass Flow" system (~1990 and newer autos) utilizes a hot wire anemometer (commonly called a Mass Flow Meter) to determine the actual air velocity. Then in conjunction with the known area of the meter, temp and pressure sensors the actual mass flow rate can be calculated. This of course is more accurate than back calculating through tables.

So NO…..the DS does not have a "Mass Air" sensor, as the hot wire anemometer is referred to in the automotive world.

Sorry....got to have a little bit of fun and keep you honest.

Little more info and we would have a decent generalization on how quad fuel injection systems work which is good for everyone.




Originally posted by TNT1
I did provide the correct answer, own a PC or you can go to your dealer they have been given the capability to make altitude adjustments on stock motors. DSbomb since you have a after market pipe and filter(BRP book values no longer apply) you can only guess what will happen at altitude due to variables and it sounds like you have seen that first hand by 700's. If it were me I would not risk traveling that far to find out, I'd at least let the dealer adjust to the altitude and your probably be all right, not as good as you could be but good enough. If you get a PC theres are many curves you can download to a pc for free depending on how you want to perform, and they are only like $2-300, that’s what I will do soon.

__________________________________________________ __
For you Mr. Grantmi....you remind me of my son 19 always challenging everything I say.....lol! That’s cool!

You get so wrapped up on terms you fail to see the technical facts. Air sensors are mass flow sensors and MAP or BAP(barometric absolute pressure) is intake vacuum and is not needed for fuel delivery, the BAP sensor is usually located in the ECU, MAP intake manifold, air density(mass) and engine speed is the critical info for fuel delivery......read below,

As atmospheric pressure decreases with increasing altitude, vacuum must also decrease to maintain the same MAP in order to maintain the same torque output. This is accomplished by opening the engine's throttle more as altitude increases. However, the BAP learned at the beginning of the trip becomes obsolete as altitude changes.
Sometimes an engine control system will use both a BAP sensor and a MAP sensor to continuously maintain an accurate barometer and manifold vacuum. However, neither vacuum nor barometer are necessary for fuel determination, although they are helpful for other engine functions. The critical information is the air's density in the intake manifold, and the speed of the engine, i.e., the speed-density method.
The BAP sensor is often located within the ECU, and the MAP sensor is usually located near the intake manifold.


A manifold absolute pressure sensor (MAP) is one of the sensors used in an internal combustion engine's electronic control system. Engines that use a MAP sensor are typically fuel injected. The manifold absolute pressure sensor provides instantaneous manifold pressure information to the engine's electronic control unit (ECU). This is necessary to calculate air density and determine the engine's AIR MASS FLOW rate, which in turn is used to calculate the appropriate fuel flow. (See stoichiometry.)
The manifold absolute pressure measurement is used to meter fuel. The amount of fuel required is directly related to the mass of air entering the engine. (See stoichiometric.) The mass of air is proportional to the air density, which is proportional to the absolute pressure and inversely proportional to the absolute temperature. (See ideal gas law.) Engine speed determines the frequency, or rate, at which air mass is leaving the intake manifold and entering the cylinders.

(Engine Mass Airflow Rate) ˜ RPM × (Air Density)

or equivalently

(Engine Mass Airflow Rate) ˜ RPM × MAP / (absolute temperature)


TNT: All ECU's/air sensors will use , pressure, density, humidity, temperature or "air mass flow" to determine the fuel delivery. A close look at air density (temp, pressure, humidity...), you remember D=PRT?

The density of a mixture of dry air molecules and water vapor molecules may be expressed as:

D=Pd/Rd*T + Pv/Rv * T

where: D = density, kg/m3
Pd = pressure of dry air, Pascals
Pv= pressure of water vapor, Pascals
Rd = gas constant for dry air, J/(kg*degK) = 287.05
Rv = gas constant for water vapor, J/(kg*degK) = 461.495
T = temperature, degK = deg C + 273.15
To determine the density of the air, it is necessary to know is the actual air pressure (also known as absolute pressure, total air pressure, or station pressure), the water vapor pressure, and the temperature.

Look at all the vairibles, I don't know all the DS algorithms & 14 bit chip has, but I will assume not enough to calculate all these vairbles and run all the equations. You do make assumptions as in altimeters temperature is a constant. If you had a stock DS you go use book values but BRP made some assumptions or constants and they are not 100% accurate. The "open loop" EFI and throttle body FI systems lacks a O2 sensor and are not the most efficient compared to multi-port.

I'm waiting for a 09 manual but from what I can tell my air sensor is in my throttle body not my manifold.

[grantmi]

Lack of commas on my post......opps!

[DGS]

This is what the Manual says:
AAPTS - Ambient air preasure and temp sensor (Airbox)
MAPS - Manifold absolute pressure sensor (top of throttle body)
TPS - Throttle position sensor (Throttle body)
IACV - Idle air control valve (Throttle body)
Fuel rail (Intake manifold)
Coolant temp sensor
Crankshaft position sensor

You can only adjust altitude in BUDS....
Hope this helps

[TNT]

Originally posted by DGS
This is what the Manual says:
AAPTS - Ambient air preasure and temp sensor (Airbox)
MAPS - Manifold absolute pressure sensor (top of throttle body)
TPS - Throttle position sensor (Throttle body)
IACV - Idle air control valve (Throttle body)
Fuel rail (Intake manifold)
Coolant temp sensor
Crankshaft position sensor

You can only adjust altitude in BUDS....
Hope this helps

Thats what we need…does the manual give any info on system operation and the ECU(function, size(bits), location)? Whats BUDS?

New to EFI but I think I can explain the system but I'll wait for my buddy Mr. know it all Grantmi to take the first shot at it….lol! My turn to have a little "fun"!!

Racing a Monster Truck show this weekend but I'll be back next week to see what you come up with Mr Grantmi the ME. BTW are you a degreed Manufacturing or Mechanical Engineer? I'm Aerospace.

[DGS]

Bombardier Utility and Diagnostic Software is the software that dealers used to program the ECM. The ECM is located on the LH side of the frame, above the fuel tank. There is nothing in the manual that gives info on system operation.
Thats all i can see that might help u so good luck...

[hotshotgoal30]

B.U.D.S is the system can-am uses they hook up the computer to the quad. you can make changes such as efi, pull up info and lot of other stuff i cant remeber right now. they use in on the sleds and watercraft as well. surprisingly they can pull up charts on the newer machines that lays out engine rpms and where you have spent most of your time and how many times you have hit the rev limiter so be careful! i remmeber one guy who bought a jetboat spent 92% of the first 4 hours on the new boat at 3/4 to wide open throttle and had an engine problem but claimed he broke it in right. yeah right. lol

[TNT]

Originally posted by DGS
This is what the Manual says:
AAPTS - Ambient air preasure and temp sensor (Airbox)
MAPS - Manifold absolute pressure sensor (top of throttle body)
TPS - Throttle position sensor (Throttle body)
IACV - Idle air control valve (Throttle body)
Fuel rail (Intake manifold)
Coolant temp sensor
Crankshaft position sensor

You can only adjust altitude in BUDS....
Hope this helps

I think I know what these are but can someone look at the manual and validate these for me and the approximate location of the rest above? That green BOSCH chip to the left my ECM? Where is the AAPTS and MAPS located? Thx.

Pics taken looking down on intake.....right and left sensors here two in a metal casting intake....

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/IMG_2481.jpg

One here in the intake close to the intake manifold.


http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/IMG_2482.jpg

[DGS]

Hey TNT1, i have a diagram at work that will show you all the right positions of the sensors...I will post it on here tomorrow..

[DGS]

The Bosch unit is the MAPS, u have to remove the front plastics to get to the ECM. It is above your fuel tank on LH side under the plastics....just below your ignition key switch...... This diagram should help u out....:D