Front End Frustrations

[bushwesl]

I've added/changed a few things on my front end and was attempting to dial in the caster, camber, and toe-in today. While I had the tape measure handy I figured I'd measure my front end to see if the total width had changed any. To my surprise I lost ~3"! :mad:

Old setup:
LSR DC-4 +3 arms, EX spindles/hubs, and Douglas 4:1 beadlocks, ~49" total width

New setup:
LSR DC-4 +3 arms, LSR Outlaw spindles, LSR billet hubs, and Douglas 4:1 beadlocks, ~46" total width

I can't believe that I lost that much with the new spindles :huh I'm really shooting for that 50" mark... Aside from going back to the original setup, is there any other ways to remedy this (preferably inexpensively)? I don't want to sacrifice handling :ermm:

I know that 3:2 wheels will help me, but how much of a difference will they make in handling? Does anyone know if LSR ever made +4 long travel arms?

Thoughts/comments/suggestions?

[deathman53]

how did +3 a-arms bring you back to stock width?? I'd like to see these lsr t-pins compared to a 400ex spindles. You know that 400ex front hubs are the same as 89 trx250r and same as 88 trx250r with a change in collars. I have a roll design +3 and its ~49, leager t-pin +3 and its 49~. Both with 4/1 rims.

[matt250r21]

Thats funny, my wide (stock width frame laeger) with +3 Laeger T-Pin arms and 4+1 rims is 48 wide. I do not see how you could be at 49 unless your camber is old school Gary Denton style.

[loboboy]

I replied to your post on TRX250R.net. Your toe in is out of whack giving you erroneous readings on the width.

[bushwesl]

I took some pics just now, but between it being freezing cold out and poor lighting the pics didn't turn out real well. Anyway...

Here's a pic of the culprit.
http://i44.tinypic.com/2lm8f9u.jpg

Here's a pic of the LSR spindle, measuring from the a-arm (where the ball joint threads in) to the outside of the hub. It's about 5-5/8", which is better than what it was because I threaded the ball joints out of the arm a bit to try and compensate for the lack in width. It was probably closer to about 5-1/4" originally.
http://i42.tinypic.com/2n093yf.jpg

Here's a pic of the 400EX spindle on my project R. Measuring from the same positions it's about 6".
http://i41.tinypic.com/2qlgw3r.jpg

So there's about an inch on both sides right there if I'm thinking/measuring correctly??

I'm sure my camber is off, but I don't think it's off by 3". I was going to adjust everything, but after realizing this I was discouraged from going any further with it. Besides, I realized I left our angle finder at work, which I'll be getting tomorrow. How many degrees of negative camber do you guys usually run? I've been going off from LSR's website and they recommend 1-3 degrees.

As far as the toe in, I really don't think that I'm that far off... I'll adjust it correctly later and see if it makes any difference.

Here are some pics of a 50" board laying in front of my R. As you can see it's quite a bit narrower than 50".
http://i40.tinypic.com/6galc7.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/33dy4op.jpg

Thanks for all of the replies/help thus far :)

[rustyATV]

I can't find any info on LSR's site about T-pin front ends.

Did you buy these from them, or someone else?

I'm wondering if they were intended as a package that included special made a-arms.

Also, are you using the right hubs? 450R hubs are much shallower than 400EX/250R hubs, but use the same brake rotor.

[Aceman]

Something isn't making sense here.......:confused:

I'm at 46-46.5" with +1 Houser LT's, 89 spindles and Baldwin hubs. You need to eliminate some variables first. Get your front end dialed in and then measure the width at ride height.

[loboboy]

you might be right, it appears by the pics that the front end is close enough in its adjustments.

In answer to your previous question Lonestar will make a +4 a-arm, I know this since I have a set on my Outlaw Banshee Chassis. It puts me over 50 wide but I don't race so it doesn't matter.

Good luck with the solution.

[bushwesl]

Originally posted by rustyATV
I can't find any info on LSR's site about T-pin front ends.

Did you buy these from them, or someone else?

I'm wondering if they were intended as a package that included special made a-arms.

Also, are you using the right hubs? 450R hubs are much shallower than 400EX/250R hubs, but use the same brake rotor.

Good luck finding any information on them... They seem to be quite rare and very few people know much about them... which sucks.

No, I didn't buy them directly from LSR. I'll give them a call tomorrow and see what they have to say about this.

And as far as I know you can use them on any type of front end, without the use of special a-arms. LSR's t-pin setup (Outlaw spindles) use a t-pin spindle which mounts to the arms using special style ball joints that thread into the arms (like a regular ball joint) and then bolt to the spindle. They also use unique tie rods.

They're definitely 400EX/250R style hubs. I measured them compared to my 400EX hubs to see if there was any difference, but they were the same.

[bushwesl]

Originally posted by Aceman
Something isn't making sense here.......:confused:

I'm at 46-46.5" with +1 Houser LT's, 89 spindles and Baldwin hubs. You need to eliminate some variables first. Get your front end dialed in and then measure the width at ride height.

I hear ya!

Like I said, I'm going to give LSR a call tomorrow and see if they have anything to say about this. I'll also try and get everything dialed in to eliminate some variables.

[loboboy]

I hate to burst your bubble but Lonestar will give little support to the outlaw spindles. I had a set and called to find the vendor for the bearings and I was literally laughed at.
These spindles were sold or given to alot of people for testing but they never went into full production from what i was told. They had too many issues that Lonestar did not want to support or redesign and they were not cost effective.
They found that ball joints worked just fine. Laeger was the only manufacturer that perfected the "t-pin" spindle but they even require rebuilds that will cost a significant amount.


Originally posted by bushwesl
Good luck finding any information on them... They seem to be quite rare and very few people know much about them... which sucks.

No, I didn't buy them directly from LSR. I'll give them a call tomorrow and see what they have to say about this.

And as far as I know you can use them on any type of front end, without the use of special a-arms. LSR's t-pin setup (Outlaw spindles) use a t-pin spindle which mounts to the arms using special style ball joints that thread into the arms (like a regular ball joint) and then bolt to the spindle. They also use unique tie rods.

They're definitely 400EX/250R style hubs. I measured them compared to my 400EX hubs to see if there was any difference, but they were the same.

[fastrnrik]

Originally posted by loboboy
I hate to burst your bubble but Lonestar will give little support to the outlaw spindles. I had a set and called to find the vendor for the bearings and I was literally laughed at.
These spindles were sold or given to alot of people for testing but they never went into full production from what i was told. They had too many issues that Lonestar did not want to support or redesign and they were not cost effective.
They found that ball joints worked just fine. Laeger was the only manufacturer that perfected the "t-pin" spindle but they even require rebuilds that will cost a significant amount.

What are the issues with the Lonestar t-pin spindles? I have two frontends with these spindles, one on a Lonestart Outlaw Banshee, and one on an old JP Outlaw LT250. I bought them as chassis's so I've never ridden them We're putting the JP LT250 for my buddy to race and it will be done in a few weeks. They appear to be a pretty simple setup. Is there anything particular I should be looking out for? I didn't know they weren't a production item. I honestly don't know a whole lot about them. How many sets of these did Lonestar make, and when were they made?

I also have Laeger t-pin frontends on two other bikes, and your statement of the "rebuilds cost a significant amount" is an understatement. Pro Trax parts are freakin retarded LOL

[bushwesl]

Originally posted by fastrnrik
What are the issues with the Lonestar t-pin spindles? I have two frontends with these spindles, one on a Lonestart Outlaw Banshee, and one on an old JP Outlaw LT250. They appear to be a pretty simple setup. Is there anything particular I should be looking out for? I didn't know they weren't a production item. I honestly don't know a whole lot about them. How many sets of these did Lonestar make, and when were they made?


I would also like to know of any issues.

What do your LSR spindles look like? I actually have two sets. The set that I have mounted, which you can see in the pics, have "LSR" stamped in the spindle casting, whereas my other set is plain with no branding. Perhaps I have a first run set, and then a set that was closer to production/produced? I'll post some pics later to show the similarities and differences between the two.

[bushwesl]

Well, I just got off the phone from LSR and they were baffled too. Couldn't really tell me too much, which I figured.

They recommended adjusting the heims out a little farther on the frame side and then adjusting the ball joints out a little farther too to compensate for the width loss. I'm just wondering how far is too far to adjust them out?? Obviously if I'm going to be jumping this thing I don't want to sacrifice strength. The ball joint threads are probably 2-1/2 - 3" in length; what do you think the maximum amount is that I should be able to take them out?

I did get a little history about them though. Supposedly they only built them really for their sponsored racers, Keith Little, etc. and only for a couple years. Once stock style aluminum spindles started coming out (400EX) they started using those, but installed a beefed up spindle shaft.

He also said that once they need to be rebuilt that it'll be hard to find parts, etc for them. He said that they haven't rebuilt any in about 4 years, and that they don't stock parts for them any more. He recommended going to a machine shop. I already knew this, but figured I'd pass on the information.

I'll try and adjust them like they recommended tonight and see if I can make any headway on this.

[matt250r21]

It looks to me that your front shocks are stiff. Do they have any sag in them when the R is off the stand? The PEP ZPS shocks I run have alot of sag in them, this helps with front end width. I think if you lossen up your shocks some you will gain 2 inches of width when the R is on the ground.

[bushwesl]

There is plenty of sag in the shocks, perhaps the pics just look deceiving?

I did some more adjusting... I threaded the ball joints out of the arms a little bit further. I measured the threads and there are about 2-1/2" on the ball joints and I have them threaded in so only 1-1/8" of the threads are sticking out. This put me at 47-48" in overall width, which I might be able to deal with.

At this point, 3:2 wheels would do the trick, and would allow me to thread my ball joints back in a few turns. For some reason it just doesn't look right/safe. Any thoughts? Should I be ok with them threaded out like they are? How will 3:2 wheels compare to the 4:1 in regards to handling?

I think I'm going to adjust the heims out at the frame on the top arms and then thread the top ball joints back in some. Should relieve some of the stress on the top ball joint.

[rustyATV]

If it were me, personally, I wouldn't trust a threaded rod to hold together. Threads are a natural stress concentration, and pulling the rod ends further out only increases the stresses where the rod end meets the a-arm. You should keep that threaded section as short as possible. No threads exposed would be idea.

In my opinion, the BEST solution, is to figure out how much distance you'll need, and then see if Lonestar will make a set of a-arms to take up that distance. Expensive, I know, but it'd be done right, rather than band-aided.

The top ball joint is the least of your concerns. In theory, the loads there are minimal as the upper arm's only job is to hold the tire upright, and even then it's only in tension and compression. It's the lower one that takes all the abuse, having to also deal with bending loads, which is what's going to kill that part.

This whole front, to me, seems like a huge hassle. Are you going to be racing with it, or is this just a project quad? If it's a racer, I'd consider something more manageable/maintainable so you're not left trying to fix something in a hurry.

[rustyATV]

Hey, here's a crazy thought: call Laegers and see if their Protrax front uses longer than normal arms. Of course, they have to have special arms for their T-pin setup, which is reversed from LSR's, but is the lower pivot point any farther out?

That might tell you if the LSR T-pins needed special arms that someone kept for an ultra-wide quad project.

[havinnoj]

Originally posted by rustyATV
Hey, here's a crazy thought: call Laegers and see if their Protrax front uses longer than normal arms. Of course, they have to have special arms for their T-pin setup, which is reversed from LSR's, but is the lower pivot point any farther out?

That might tell you if the LSR T-pins needed special arms that someone kept for an ultra-wide quad project.

Now that's an idea. The ball joints could have been replaced with heims, or a-arms swapped.

Do you know for sure these are +3 length?

[Aceman]

Originally posted by rustyATV
If it were me, personally, I wouldn't trust a threaded rod to hold together. Threads are a natural stress concentration, and pulling the rod ends further out only increases the stresses where the rod end meets the a-arm. You should keep that threaded section as short as possible. No threads exposed would be idea.

I completely agree. I'd only thread the balljoints out far enough to get the camber right. You know you're gonna faceplant at the worst possible time if/when it does break otherwise. It's not worth a trip to the hospital....... and for the price of an ER visit you could of bought different arms.

[bushwesl]

Yea, I agree about the the ball joints being unsafe, especially if I plan on jumping, etc. I'm not a racer, but do like to hit up the MX track now and again, so I guess you could say that this is more of a project quad. Although, I would like to get into racing a little when I figure out my life, haha, and have the time to dedicate to it.

I'll give LSR and/or Laeger a call after the new year to see if they did in fact use special arms. I bought the arm/spindle combo separately. The guy I bought the LSR spindles off from had them on standard travel +3 LSR arms, which might be where my problem is. I don't think that these spindles were made/developed in the "long travel" era of suspension setups, and therefore may not necessarily have been designed for them, especially the gullwing style that I have. I just assumed that they would work because I didn't think/expect that they'd require special arms. And yes, my arms are in fact +3.

I'd really like to use these, but if they're just not going to work, I guess they're not going to work. Custom a-arms would be the ticket, but I don't think that my budget is going to allow that any time soon, ha. I might pick up some 3:2 offset wheels and see how it is then.

Once again, thanks for all of the replies and help :)

[rustyATV]

I just noticed a post in this hybrid thread.

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=376529

Check out the 7th reply: "+4 Protrax"



Hey, if nothing else, 46" wide makes for a great woods quad!

[bushwesl]

Originally posted by rustyATV
I just noticed a post in this hybrid thread.

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=376529

Check out the 7th reply: "+4 Protrax"



Hey, if nothing else, 46" wide makes for a great woods quad!

Yea, I checked that out. Those +4 arms are to take up that inch on each side that you lose with the Leager narrow frames. Mine is standard width... atleast it's supposed to be.

You're not a kidding about the woods quad bit, ha. Maybe I'll throw them on my other project R and see what happens. It has +2 arms, so maybe I'll be at 44":p

[loboboy]

Originally posted by bushwesl
I would also like to know of any issues.

What do your LSR spindles look like? I actually have two sets. The set that I have mounted, which you can see in the pics, have "LSR" stamped in the spindle casting, whereas my other set is plain with no branding. Perhaps I have a first run set, and then a set that was closer to production/produced? I'll post some pics later to show the similarities and differences between the two.

The set I had I had to rebuild and the alignment on the pivot shaft that runs thru the spindle was off roughly .005" and when you are trying to install a solid shaft made out of steel it binds it up very bad. What I had to do is align bore the spindle out and true up the bearing alignment to make it work. The other issues were created by the previous owner in losing parts which I made myself, the washers that go under the knuckles at the top and bottom plus the bearings that are used run about 80 bucks a piece.
Then the brass bushings in the ball joint attach fittings are IMO a joke. They are brass impregnanted with oil unlike the heim that Laeger uses.

I won't say that they are no good just not refined. One other thing against them is the LSR t-pin spindles are heavy. They weigh alot more than an aluminum spindle.

I planned to use them on my Outlaw Banshee but decided not to. I decided to run the spindle and ball joint front end since my bike is standard travel and I did not need the extra travel of the t-pin setup.