responsible riding

[freelandhunter]

I'm a hunter and conservationist in the freeland, pa area. recently I've seen a lot more recreational riders in the woods where I hunt. I have no problem with anyone enjoying the woods in their own way even though it is illegal to ride in these areas. My problem is with the disrespectful nature of recreational atv-ers. My first complaint is of the extra loud exhaust. You may think it sounds cool but it is noise pollution and destroys the peace and quiet that I seek from my woods experience.
My second complaint is when you destroy more land than you need to. Why not strap a chainsaw to your atv to clear obstacles instead of just making a new trail? And why must you ride through environmentally sensitive areas? I may look like just a swamp to you, but all wetlands are protected because they are an extremely important part of the ecosystem. Wetlands are home to many rare, endangered, and threatened species and are the lifeblood of all forest critters. To drive through them is to show a total disregard for the health of the forest and is just absolutely deplorable.
Third, I was recently dragging a deer out of the woods. When I came to a trail, 34 loud atvs drove past me. No one so much as made eye contact with me, let alone offer me a hand. I suspect it is because these riders know they are in the wrong and are not very popular with us legal forest users. You should know that a little good will will go a long way.
This disrespectful nature of atv-ers is exactly what causes crackdowns on riding in other areas. You behave like children and are eventually treated like children. If you want to keep riding here, I would suggest that you "man-up" and start treating the forest with the respect it deserves. Thank you.

as an concerned atv rider, these are the problems that the community is trying to deal with. Many of us have been trying to convey the S.P.O.R.T. mentality that the hunting community has. Unfortunatley, much like the hunting community, there are those who don't see things that way. we have those that feel because they bought an atv, they can ride where ever, and when ever they feel like it. i akin these people to poachers. it is sad that these types of people ruin it for those of us who care.

should you return to this site, i will warn you that this site has a lot of teens that will disagree with you and be less than pleasant with their replies. do not hold this against the complete atv community, as we are not all like that.

i will say that up until the end of your post, you were doing well. once you turn to making insults, it makes it less likely that anyone will be moved by your plea. Be less abrasive as you will get more flies with honey than you will with vinegar.

[freelandhunter]

I'm sorry you take my comments as insults. They come from frustration and were aimed at the "poachers"and disagreeable teens you referred to. The obnoxious, destructive behavior to which I referred is simply immature. I'm tired of watching habitat get destroyed and I'm mad enough to do something about it.
I'm just asking for respect.

then show it as opposed to tossing insults about "manning up". believe it or not, i am on your side with most points on this but angering those you need to reach will not help your cause. if you are going to make a post on a site like this, take some time to see what kind of readers there are and think of the best way to approach the issue. although i agree with you, the way you have approached it is not going to work on this site. believe me, i am one that has been in many heated debates over loud exhausts, and respectful riding. unfortunately, this is a fight that will never end, much like the fight against poaching.

as far as the habitat being destroyed, well...it will be there there again, the atvs do not destroy nearly as much as what all the roads through out PA or even the USA have.

you can be against atv's but they are not going away, maybe you can help us gain more legal riding areas in PA that are accessible to all atv owners, instead of condemning us. do you realize that we are required to insure our atv's and keep them registered. the registration fee was to be used to create and maintain atv trails in pa, but there have been no new trails created for years, even though there are hundreds of thousands of legally registered in pa. the state also gets tax money from the fuel we purchase to run our atv's but none of that goes back into the atv community either. if you want to curb some of that illegal riding, try to put your focus on the real problem.

by the way, i wasn't offended, but others will be

[BuB400]

I to am against loud exhausts on quads and trespassing. I ride on 230 private acres. I also hunt this property. Trespassing hunters are a major problem every year. Its peoples attitudes in general that they think they can do whatever they want. If your asking for respect,get in line.

[freelandhunter]

I never said I was against atvs. By "man-up" I mean that it takes a real man to swallow his pride and admit that he's not perfect. My intention is to hopefully make some riders aware of the damage that they are doing to the environment and to their sport. Ride all you want. But if everyone continues to destroy wetlands and other habitat with a "well..it will be there again attitude",well... it won't be. Conservation starts with each of us. So next time you have a pristine wetlands (swamp) in front of you and you're thinking of how sweet it would be to drive thru it with tires spinning and mud flying while listening to that sick exhaust-- and how you'll look like a bad-*** warrior all covered in mud, pause and ask yourself if you really want to be a careless enemy of nature just for a selfish, cheap thrill. When you come to a sapling fallen across a trail and think "I'll just make a new trail around it rather than take a minute to maintain what I've got", ask yourself if you really are that lazy and consider that there might be a grouse or turkey nest in the way of your new trail.
I do not intend to be the enemy of atvs-
there's enough riders who already do that quite well.
But I would like to be the enemy of ignorance. (if that sounds like an insult, you're too sensitive)

honey...not vinegar...
not insulted, i go over the downed trees, but tread lightly while doing it. i avoid mud as much as possible because it causes unnecessary wear on my machine.

just because i don't share your view of "save the environment". you lump me in with the rest...hmmm...

[freelandhunter]

You don't care about the environment and I don't care if you have a place to ride. If I had a mouse in my house-- crapping all over and spreading disease-- I wouldn't give it honey or vinegar....
If I were a smart mouse, I'd be careful where I crapped and I wouldn't install extra loud pipes.
You, speedyquad, are a smart mouse and I admire that. I've seen your posts on other threads. You spread a positive message and you are good for your sport.
but you're still a mouse!
There's always been a strong riding culture in my area. It was always common to have a few atvs cruise by. But there were less of them, exhausts were quieter, and damage seemed far less.
But since Paragon closed, there are large packs of noisy machines just tearing it up.
They cut new trails and chop my beautiful hunting woods into smaller and smaller pieces and disturb it constantly. The area has been raped by the coal industry resulting in great riding opportunities and many miles of dirt roads. But atvs still must push farther into the woods, raping land that has been hunted by 5 generations of my family. this is sacred land where the ashes of several family members have been spread.
NOW, WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF YOUR HOUSE WAS INFESTED WITH MICE???

[CJM]

Is it your land, if so kick them off. If not you really cant complain to much besides call the PD.

if it is my land, i post it and enforce that with the police...if not my land, then i mind my own business as maybe the land owner don't care...
as that smart mouse, i am not in your house without permission

are you a member of pa hunting?

[airmobile101]

Dude,what is your point? Do you want us stop riding quads? Maybe plant some trees on Arbour Day? Maybe convince the mining industry that coal is the wrong way to go? It apparent you came on here to vent, thats cool. The only problem with this whole thread is you placed this in the wrong forum altogether. Maybe you should have placed this in your local conservation web site. I have no issue with hunters or atv/bikes. But, your just as guilty as us. You might be that clown that didn't police after his shell casings or decided to field strip his deer in the woods. Or as mentioned in the prior post. The famous poucher !!!

Now, about the loud exhaust , go b*tch to the Harley guys !!!

[stoopidbot]

I agree with not destroying the entire forest, 50" wide trail is plenty. But I hate that hunters and conservation people think they should be the only ones allowed to use the land. WAH, I came out here for peace and quite. Your exhaust is too loud...buy some ear plugs.

[LONG-ROD]

I bet your deer rifle is louder than my R:eek: oh and I would rather hit a turky nest with my quad than an incent person with a bullet. Hunters are as much of a problem as us guys on ATV's. So lets see, your saying don't destroy the wild life with quads so you can with a gun? and as for makeing new trails. grass grows back. tilling up the soil might not be a bad thing.

[scuzz]

Making new trails is one of the reasons I ride an atv. I have a Suburban for the clearly marked roads and "paths".

That said though, I only ride in area that I pay to ride in and never EVER on someone else's land w/o permission. No one I ride with does this either.

[outlawjeff]

get a life!!!!! What about all the homes being build in wetlands and in the forests, doesnt that affect the forrest more than some atvs. atleast grass and trees grow back after we are done riding. But homes on the other hand just use the trees to build the home and also have the land they build on destroyed for foundations and portches septics etc.. that doesnt grow back. so go complain to the builders for disrupting your forrest as well. Just my 2 cents

[freelandhunter]

Thank you all for your response. Several of them are what I'd expect from someone who's doing something they know they shouldn't be doing-- you rationalize your own bad behavior by pointing at someone else's bad behavior. Reminds me of grade school. Speaking of school, some of you guys were obviously daydreaming about quads during spelling and science classes!
Sorry Speedy, couldn't resist.
If you don't get my point, go back and read my other posts.
By the way, you're not "tilling" the soil, you're compacting it and stripping the topsoil and that impedes growth.
With that said, I'd like to thank the good guys out there. Happy New Year and happy riding, douchebags! Break a leg!

[stoopidbot]

Originally posted by freelandhunter
Happy New Year and happy riding, douchebags! Break a leg! Same to you...go shoot yourself!

That's the great thing about quads...even with a broken leg I could ride.

[freelandhunter]

I don't think I could shoot myself with a bow and arrow.
By the way, I'm not in the wrong forum. I just titled my thread wrong. I should have called it "where not to ride".

[stoopidbot]

Originally posted by freelandhunter
I don't think I could shoot myself with a bow and arrow.
By the way, I'm not in the wrong forum. I just titled my thread wrong. I should have called it "where not to ride". The bottom line is that the guys who leave the trails and tear up the grass and all that should be run over with their own toy. I am a strong supporter of the "stay the trail" program. Closing trails completely is not the answer, that will lead to people illegally riding everywhere. The fact is we won't stop riding.

[BuB400]

If you own the land, get some local enforcement in there. Is it state land,private or what? If its illegal to ride in this area the riders should be prosecuted. These riders wreck the sport for everyone. Take some local action instead of being like everyone else. It reminds me of talk radio people,sit and ***** but don't do anything about it.

[CJM]

Originally posted by BuB400
If you own the land, get some local enforcement in there. Is it state land,private or what? If its illegal to ride in this area the riders should be prosecuted. These riders wreck the sport for everyone. Take some local action instead of being like everyone else. It reminds me of talk radio people,sit and ***** but don't do anything about it.

x2..

You havent said yet, is it your land? If not you dont have much of an argument other than bringing the actions of the riders to the authorities.

[LONG-ROD]

compacting the soil, I had a farmer tell me that when I was on my dirt bike, as he crawled out of a tractor the size of my house. I pointed this out and he looked at me with a dumb founded look and said, " never thought of that" go ahead and ride just stay out of the crops. you people just look for stuff to complain about. You know how many cows of mine I have found with some hunters arrow stuck in them. So to your commet before, fall out of a tree and stick an arrow in your a** and find your way to another forum



Ps just putting a little oxgen in the water. lol

[LONG-ROD]

To let everyone know that pic is of me on my own private property. just feeling a little :devil: today

[freelandhunter]

it's not my land but that doesn't matter. I'm there legally and the riders are not. The area is too remote for regular patrols.
Recently, the coal company has turned over much of their land, in an adjacent area to the public and the game commission has been more focused on patrolling that. I don't necessarily want all riders kicked out, just the army of noisy, two-wheel drive knuckleheads who just don't respect the environment or the other forest users.
This situation was previously tolerable but recently hundreds more quads have been showing up. I'm assuming that these jerkoffs got kicked out of other areas because of their disrespectful actions and now they've discovered this area. I have spoke to authorities and they assure me that actions will be taken.
In addition, the land in question will be turned over to the game commission soon and patrols will be stepped up. Until then, I am assisting authorities by providing as much info as I can including : using gps to map trails, record damage, trailhead parking and license numbers, provide atv registration numbers and names when possible,got some local names off myspace, sat in camo near trail and videoed many reg numbers(it's so easy when you hear those loud pipes coming), and using trail cams to photo the bad guys riding through sensitive areas.
I don't just hunt animals anymore.
I care for the land and will do anything to protect it. Never underestimate the righteous!

[stoopidbot]

Originally posted by freelandhunter
it's not my land but that doesn't matter. I'm there legally and the riders are not. The area is too remote for regular patrols.
Recently, the coal company has turned over much of their land, in an adjacent area to the public and the game commission has been more focused on patrolling that. I don't necessarily want all riders kicked out, just the army of noisy, two-wheel drive knuckleheads who just don't respect the environment or the other forest users.
This situation was previously tolerable but recently hundreds more quads have been showing up. I'm assuming that these jerkoffs got kicked out of other areas because of their disrespectful actions and now they've discovered this area. I have spoke to authorities and they assure me that actions will be taken.
In addition, the land in question will be turned over to the game commission soon and patrols will be stepped up. Until then, I am assisting authorities by providing as much info as I can including : using gps to map trails, record damage, trailhead parking and license numbers, provide atv registration numbers and names when possible,got some local names off myspace, sat in camo near trail and videoed many reg numbers(it's so easy when you hear those loud pipes coming), and using trail cams to photo the bad guys riding through sensitive areas.
I don't just hunt animals anymore.
I care for the land and will do anything to protect it. Never underestimate the righteous! Have you ever looked at yourself and thought, I MA F$*KING PSYCO! You have got some serious issues with bordom if you dress in camo to go take pictures of guys riding. Sounds like you secretly have a thing for guys on ATVs! Get over it, you're not a cop. Why don't you google "arrow stuck in deer's face". You will see what you and your "saint" hunting buddies do. http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/18345229/detail.html I did it for you.

[CD400EX]

Originally posted by freelandhunter
it's not my land but that doesn't matter. I'm there legally and the riders are not. The area is too remote for regular patrols.
Recently, the coal company has turned over much of their land, in an adjacent area to the public and the game commission has been more focused on patrolling that. I don't necessarily want all riders kicked out, just the army of noisy, two-wheel drive knuckleheads who just don't respect the environment or the other forest users.
This situation was previously tolerable but recently hundreds more quads have been showing up. I'm assuming that these jerkoffs got kicked out of other areas because of their disrespectful actions and now they've discovered this area. I have spoke to authorities and they assure me that actions will be taken.
In addition, the land in question will be turned over to the game commission soon and patrols will be stepped up. Until then, I am assisting authorities by providing as much info as I can including : using gps to map trails, record damage, trailhead parking and license numbers, provide atv registration numbers and names when possible,got some local names off myspace, sat in camo near trail and videoed many reg numbers(it's so easy when you hear those loud pipes coming), and using trail cams to photo the bad guys riding through sensitive areas.
I don't just hunt animals anymore.
I care for the land and will do anything to protect it. Never underestimate the righteous!

Where are these areas? I want to go riding where you ride with my non-driven front wheels and White Bros exhaust. Hopefully we will catch you hiding in the woods taking pictures. I need a new camera anyway. Hunters aren't the only ones in the woods with firearms you know.

[CJM]

If it aint yours then do us all a favor and shut up! You have no real grounds to complain if it doesnt belong to you in reality anyways!

If you must, go complain to the game wardens, local authorities and such or just leave it be. Complaining to us wont do you a damn bit of good at all.

Its almost disgusting your going to such great lengths over a former coal mine, where infact the wildlife is already damaged and so is the land due to the harvesting of coal.

[freelandhunter]

You outlaw riders think you can do whatever you want. You think you can outrun every threat. you sound scared.

[stoopidbot]

Originally posted by freelandhunter
You outlaw riders think you can do whatever you want. You think you can outrun every threat. you sound scared. What the hell is there to be scared of?

[CJM]

Originally posted by freelandhunter
You outlaw riders think you can do whatever you want. You think you can outrun every threat. you sound scared.

Outlaw riders? I ride on land with permission for starters. Second of all you sitting around and trying to get people caught isnt cool at all SPECIALLY ON LAND YOU DONT OWN!

Do us all a favor, go back where you came from, it would be ok for you to complain if you owned it, you dont so stop it.

Its people trying to preserve everything imaginable that drives the riders to go to such far off places.

[CD400EX]

Originally posted by freelandhunter
You outlaw riders think you can do whatever you want. You think you can outrun every threat. you sound scared.

I'm not scared.

You mentioned Paragon, that means you're in northeast PA. I love riding in northeast PA. Tell me where you hunt, I'll come ride there with my non-driven front wheels and loud pipe so I'm easy for you to find. Like I said I could use a new camera, and it's you against 4 or 5 of us, miles in the woods where the authorities can't patrol.


Get over yourself. You don't own the woods.

[freelandhunter]

see ya on the trails

[represent618]

wow, kids thats enough tuff talk, really. :huh

[BuB400]

Even as a ATV rider I have to say the hunter brings up some good points. The riders have some good points as well. I feel the same way towards hunters as this guy feels towards atver's. Everybody's entitled to their own opinion. But I get the feeling with all your spying,your the type of guy to take a pot shot at one of these guys riding by. Same for the threats from guys on this site towards you. If your all so tough, go get in a bar fight somewhere and get it out of your system.

[scuzz]

If I was an admin this thread would be locked already.

Enough guys.

E-thuggery get's old.

[freelandhunter]

You've made some good points about hunters. There's bad people out there no matter what the activity. I assure you, I'm an ethical hunter and I'd never shoot at another person. I am simply a nature lover. I visit the forest 12 months a year to hunt, forage, and observe nature just as humans have for eternity. I feel a deep connection to the wild places which have sustained the human soul for thousands of generations. I feel that I must protect it for my kids.
As an observer, I keep track of what I see-- whether it's a 10 point buck I'm watching or bad people like dumpers, litterers, poachers, or erosion causers. I'm good friends with a conservation officer and I share my observations with him.
My reason for coming on this site is not to hate, but hopefully to open some eyes. I know that some of you knuckleheads just can't be reached and I can't stop you from riding. But at the time of writing this I've had almost 400 views and hopefully many more and maybe someone will see it and say, "wow, I didn't realize that cutting a trail up a hill just once could lead to severe erosion and sediment from that erosion could wipe out the fish population of a small stream, including endangered species."
OR, "maybe I shouldn't get on a website and just invite anyone to come for a tour of my area because they might bring people who bring even more people, etc. and end up ruining a good thing for me."
I apologize for the abrasive nature of some of my posts. I'm passionate about the land I love and my emotions got the better of me. Thanks for hearing my opinion.

[stoopidbot]

Originally posted by freelandhunter
You've made some good points about hunters. There's bad people out there no matter what the activity. I assure you, I'm an ethical hunter and I'd never shoot at another person. I am simply a nature lover. I visit the forest 12 months a year to hunt, forage, and observe nature just as humans have for eternity. I feel a deep connection to the wild places which have sustained the human soul for thousands of generations. I feel that I must protect it for my kids.
As an observer, I keep track of what I see-- whether it's a 10 point buck I'm watching or bad people like dumpers, litterers, poachers, or erosion causers. I'm good friends with a conservation officer and I share my observations with him.
My reason for coming on this site is not to hate, but hopefully to open some eyes. I know that some of you knuckleheads just can't be reached and I can't stop you from riding. But at the time of writing this I've had almost 400 views and hopefully many more and maybe someone will see it and say, "wow, I didn't realize that cutting a trail up a hill just once could lead to severe erosion and sediment from that erosion could wipe out the fish population of a small stream, including endangered species."
OR, "maybe I shouldn't get on a website and just invite anyone to come for a tour of my area because they might bring people who bring even more people, etc. and end up ruining a good thing for me."
I apologize for the abrasive nature of some of my posts. I'm passionate about the land I love and my emotions got the better of me. Thanks for hearing my opinion. I am one of the riders that LOVES to go out and see the scenery. Me and my riding partners DO NOT leave designated trails. We DON'T ride in places that are illegal. If it is private property we get permission.

I completely understand about preserving what mother nature gave us. I'm one of those guys with the loud piped 2 wheel drive racing machines. It pisses me off when I see trails leading off the designated path, I would say that 9/10 of the "illegal" trails I see are single track caused by dirt bikes.

I'm in Colorado, I can't speak for everyone but that's how it is here.

[scuzz]

I pay to ride where I ride, and making new trails is encouraged. Now I know this isn't the case everywhere, but where I ride it is.

IMO most of the hunters with their 4x4's do WAY more damage than my 500lb rig.

[represent618]

I agree the 4x4`s do a LOT of damage, especially when they are out in the mud digging unreal ruts in the trails.

I have been stuck on my carrier many times while riding trails that have been eroded out by the 4x4`s, but I still respect them, have fun out there and be courteous.

[scuzz]

Originally posted by represent618
I agree the 4x4`s do a LOT of damage, especially when they are out in the mud digging unreal ruts in the trails.

I have been stuck on my carrier many times while riding trails that have been eroded out by the 4x4`s, but I still respect them, have fun out there and be courteous.



I agree with you. I love this sport. :)

[BIGCATDAVE]

I am a little familiar with the area this thread is referring to. There are some serious idiots in that area, and they are not all on ATVs.

To Freelandhunter: I'm glad to see you acknowledged the poachers and illegal dumpers. Make sure while you are video taping the ATV riders, you get some of those strippins cruisers. I doubt very seriously that the individuals you are trying to reach are on this forum, and if they are, they really don't care what you have to say because they see the dumping and other abuses of that land as being worse than anything they are doing. Chances are, the riders that cause the most problems there are local and won't need to haul in their machines, good luck tracking them down.

It's funny that you would point to Paragon's closure as being the cause of more illegal riding. When Paragon was in business, everyone blamed them for bringing in the riders and no one batted an eye when your crooked politicians forced them out. By the way, how's that airport coming along? The Paragon management did a great job of maintaining the trails, and blocking off sensitive areas.

For the rest of us, listen to what the hunter guy is saying. This is how the non riding public views our sport. When we jump all over someone for pointing out what should be obvious to responsible riders, we only affirm their assumptions. If you don't live in the area, it's hard to understand why this guy might be upset. Go up and visit for yourself. Watch a truckload of quads unload and throw their coffee cups in the weeds. Now we are no better than the dumpers. I know for a fact that there is law enforcement cracking down in the area, but it's not just ATV riders they are after, they are also looking for illegal hunters and dumpers.

[CD400EX]

Originally posted by freelandhunter
see ya on the trails

We're free this weekend and ready to ride. Like I said before, just tell me where & when.

My crew and I all ride sports quads and all have aftermarket exhausts. We prefer lighter faster 2wd bikes and the pipes help them run better. Want to know something else? We're all PA-licensed hunters and fisherman too. We don't blaze new trails, we don't even go in the mud or water. If anything, we've witnessed more hunters doing damage to sensitive areas driving off-trail on ute quads looking for their kill. We slow down to pass those on foot and shut down for horses. In the spring you will see light spinning rods strapped to our backs.

You are not a conservationist, you are an extremist looking to exclude other groups from what you feel is yours and yours only (much like the Sierra Club). The woods are everyone's to share. ATV's aren't going anywhere, buy some earplugs and instead of hating on all riders, learn to co-exist with the responsable ones and try to politely inform the rest of proper riding etiquette.

[freelandhunter]

Originally posted by CD400EX
We're free this weekend and ready to ride. Like I said before, just tell me where & when.

My crew and I all ride sports quads and all have aftermarket exhausts. We prefer lighter faster 2wd bikes and the pipes help them run better. Want to know something else? We're all PA-licensed hunters and fisherman too. We don't blaze new trails, we don't even go in the mud or water. If anything, we've witnessed more hunters doing damage to sensitive areas driving off-trail on ute quads looking for their kill. We slow down to pass those on foot and shut down for horses. In the spring you will see light spinning rods strapped to our backs.

You are not a conservationist, you are an extremist looking to exclude other groups from what you feel is yours and yours only (much like the Sierra Club). The woods are everyone's to share. ATV's aren't going anywhere, buy some earplugs and instead of hating on all riders, learn to co-exist with the responsable ones and try to politely inform the rest of proper riding etiquette.

If you read and comprehend my posts you know that I have been coexisting with responsible riders for a long time. It is the recent spike, in riders who seem hell bent on destruction, that I can not tolerate.
What part of "riding up a hill even once can cause severe erosion, and sediment from that erosion can wipe out the entire fish population of a small stream, including endangered species" is extremist and not conservationist?

In my opinion, loud exhausts are obnoxious and annoying. If you want to be obnoxious and annoying, that's your decision. It's a free country.
Maybe you should buy me earplugs. If you don't like what I have to say, you don't have to read it. I don't have that option with your loud exhaust. I have concerns with some things I see atvers doing. Can you think of a better place to air those concerns?
A couple normally good guys I was hunting with were so fed up with the noise from a large group of quads, they wanted to throw nails on the trails. I convinced them that it was a bad idea. They felt that the quads were scaring the deer away.
I DO NOT feel this way. I'm sure this will make some of you very angry, but you need to know that your actions are not always popular with the non-riding public and can lead even good people to make angry, irrational, bad decisions and that can be a bad thing for everyone.
Not all hunters are as reasonable as me. There's some crazy rednecks out there who might do something drastic if you mess with their hunt. I don't expect you to receive this info well but believe me, the vast majority of hunters are good people. So please be aware of hunting seasons and consider the location you ride during the season.
Btw, thanks for the info on 4x4 quads. I didn't realize they might be MORE destructive. I just assume that 2wd quads must spin their tires more.
Thanks again for your time.

[stoopidbot]

Originally posted by freelandhunter
If you read and comprehend my posts you know that I have been coexisting with responsible riders for a long time. It is the recent spike, in riders who seem hell bent on destruction, that I can not tolerate.
What part of "riding up a hill even once can cause severe erosion, and sediment from that erosion can wipe out the entire fish population of a small stream, including endangered species" is extremist and not conservationist?

In my opinion, loud exhausts are obnoxious and annoying. If you want to be obnoxious and annoying, that's your decision. It's a free country.
Maybe you should buy me earplugs. If you don't like what I have to say, you don't have to read it. I don't have that option with your loud exhaust. I have concerns with some things I see atvers doing. Can you think of a better place to air those concerns?
A couple normally good guys I was hunting with were so fed up with the noise from a large group of quads, they wanted to throw nails on the trails. I convinced them that it was a bad idea. They felt that the quads were scaring the deer away.
I DO NOT feel this way. I'm sure this will make some of you very angry, but you need to know that your actions are not always popular with the non-riding public and can lead even good people to make angry, irrational, bad decisions and that can be a bad thing for everyone.
Not all hunters are as reasonable as me. There's some crazy rednecks out there who might do something drastic if you mess with their hunt. I don't expect you to receive this info well but believe me, the vast majority of hunters are good people. So please be aware of hunting seasons and consider the location you ride during the season.
Btw, thanks for the info on 4x4 quads. I didn't realize they might be MORE destructive. I just assume that 2wd quads must spin their tires more.
Thanks again for your time. I can live with that, Our loud pipes are for performance gains. I understand that they would scare off what you are hunting. Again, I'm bringing up Colorado but The areas where the legal trails are, hunting is not permitted usually. There are certain trails that are closed except for Hunters during the hunting season. I'm sure there are guys that break the rules on both sides.

[Crazy lil punk]

Okay, here goes.

freelandhunter,
I am young adult (teen) 2wd atv riding, enviroment wrecker. I ride my 2wd atv with friends, on property owned by our families, and families which we have permision to ride and "wreck" on.
Okay, all my smart *** comments are out now :)


I enjoy getting down and dirty and riding my heart out more then smoking joints, drinking, and all around being a pest to the neiborhood.

You enjoy looking at nature. We enjoy riding our quads through it.

You want to save nature for your kids, we do too.

It has, and will always probally be there.

I will be back to discuss this topic with you later, time for homework.

I think you need to take a ride with one of us "teenage 2wd wrecking machines" You would have a lot of fun.

[RIDETHEREJK]

I think FREELANDHUNTER has some good pionts. I know he said some of the personal problems he has with atv riders, but he is also more on our side then you give him credit for. He listened to what some of you said, and it changed some of his veiws. I do think it got out of hand and that some of you just wanted to start a fight and he jumped right in. As you could see, that didn't go anywhere. If you all think that he's bad, there's alot more people out there that are a thousand times worse. All he is really doing is opening our eyes to how the public views us, and how we can help change thier views by just being a little more responsible in how and where we ride. You told him that he should call the police if he has a problem with illegal riders. He shouldn't have to. Bottom line is if you don't have premission to ride on the land your on, you shouldn't be there.
For those that are upset about no new trails in PA, all I can say is come down here to MD. We have almost none. The closest forest to ride for me is over 2 hours away. It's an 18 mile loop and that's it. A Toyota Highlander can drive that trail. The next closest is over 4 hours away. I mostly just go to Rock Run and Lost Trails, both about 3.5 hours away. So to me, you guys in PA have it easy.
I really hope we all understand that we really do need to consider others feelings and rights. If we don't ride responsibly, we will lose our right to ride. Don't think for one minute that we have more pull with the goverment than they do. He who complains the loudest wins. And I can assure you that they have more voices than we do.
Just so you know, I'm 38 and love riding my 2wd mainly quiet avt, on legal land. I'm asking all of you to please think about our sport as a whole and ride and act responsibly. Don't think that it will always be there for us. They have tried passing a law in Baltimore city that you can't even own a bike or atv in the city limits. Don't know if it passed, I live in the county. Just read the news from AMA and you will almost always see an article on a state trying to close more land to off-roaders. It's up to us. Are you willing to help?

[freelandhunter]

Ooops! I started a new thread.
I'll repost here:

Thanks for the positive comments.
For the private land riders out there: Destroying wetlands or causing sediment pollution in streams IS ILLEGAL IN ALL 50 STATES- EVEN ON YOUR OWN PROPERTY!

[scuzz]

Originally posted by freelandhunter
Destroying wetlands or causing sediment pollution in streams IS ILLEGAL IN ALL 50 STATES- EVEN ON YOUR OWN PROPERTY!


True, but it would have to be an egregious act and not something done with an ATV on a massive scale. Farming is the greatest culprit of sediment pollution and I bet that ATV's make up a fraction of a percent of sediment pollution out there (although there are no official figures to support it) and that Farming is by far a bigger issue and violator of this.


Check out page 3...no mention of a-hole kids on ATV's or ATV's at all none-the less. So you're (pardon the pun) making a mountain out of a mole hill in your ATV-sediment argument.

http://www3.abe.iastate.edu/tsm424/TSM424TermProj2006/HangslebenSuhFinalPaper.pdf

[sprayedgt]

I have a solution. If you don't like the noise put in ear plugs. This way you can still see the scenery and not hear the ATV's :blah: Win win situation if you ask me.

The hunters out there complain about ATV's and dirt bikes tearing up the land but don't realize the amount of lead they put out there. Its on the ground and in the trees and does far more damage to the ecosystem than an ATV or bike bike ever could. It's a really bad thing when a few "bad apples" have the entire population that enjoy the sport thrown into the same bunch.

[scuzz]

Originally posted by sprayedgt
I have a solution. If you don't like the noise put in ear plugs. This way you can still see the scenery and not hear the ATV's :blah: Win win situation if you ask me.

The hunters out there complain about ATV's and dirt bikes tearing up the land but don't realize the amount of lead they put out there. Its on the ground and in the trees and does far more damage to the ecosystem than an ATV or bike bike ever could.


You're kidding right?

[slvrhwk]

Interesting thread.

Good points on both sides.

Where I grew up and ride when its hunting season my butt stays out of the woods. The one "missed" shot puts a little fear in me.

Most of my friends/family members and fellow land owners have come to a little agreement. Outside of hunting season we can ride anytime anywhere during hunting stay on state roads.

I'm confused on the quote below though.

"What part of "riding up a hill even once can cause severe erosion, and sediment from that erosion can wipe out the entire fish population of a small stream, including endangered species"

So dragging a dead deer up/down hills and through streams has no effect?

We all are doing little parts that are helping destroy land its not one group of people.

[scuzz]

I think the OP is a little fired up and exaggerating.

[freelandhunter]

Thanks for the info scuzz. Forgive me for the analogy: Cigarette butts are very small but they're still litter! That report focuses on exclusively on agriculture (page 1). Atv's have a major potential to do environmental damage in the wrong hands and thousands of new riders take to the trails every year, constantly increasing the potential for destruction of habitat. I know no one wants to destroy this beautiful planet intentionally. It is a lack of knowledge that is more dangerous than anything. And the wrong attitude.

For example, wetlands and streams are far to important to the forest ecosystem. There's no excuse to ruin even a little bit of it. What if everyone ruined just a little bit? Go around it, build a bridge over it, use switchbacks on a hill, whatever-just conserve it.
And there's just too much "it will grow back" talk. I keep hearing that you won't stop riding, so when will it grow back? Do you expect the next generation to have the motivation and knowledge to fix or abandon your carelessly designed trail? Conservation starts with you! You are not a single rider but part of an army that has a great collective impact on the land! That shortcut you take will be followed by thousands more. Are you sure your new trail is necessary? Did you consider it's environmental impact?

Ear plugs again? Did you know that your muffler can be heard loud enough from a half mile away to drown out the sound of a deer approaching on dry leaves. Does it really have to be that loud? If there was a quiet muffler that increased performance just as much, would you use it? Come on. You just like the way it sounds and you know it!

Bullet manufacturers are working on lead free loads and governments are working on mandating them. It is illegal to use lead shot for waterfowl. I use alternatives whenever possible.

Crazy lil punk: I've ridden quads legally in pennsylvania, wyoming, and new zealand. I had a proper atv safety course and never left the trail. For me, the novelty wore off quickly. I'd much rather walk.

Finally, considering the potential for environmental damage caused by uninformed riders, I feel that the atv community needs to do more to bring this issue to the forefront if for nothing more than for it's own survival. Start with this website, for example. Would giving " ATVs and conservation" it's own forum be too much like admitting that there's a problem? Riders might be inspired to ask questions like, "what's the best tire pressure to minimize damage to a typical Pennsylvania woods trail?"

Thanks again for your time.

[scuzz]

http://tinyurl.com/7c2ku9

[freelandhunter]

So dragging a dead deer up/down hills and through streams has no effect?


I appreciate the criticism but, are you serious? Is that the best you can do?

[scuzz]

Originally posted by freelandhunter
Thanks for the info scuzz. Forgive me for the analogy: Cigarette butts are very small but they're still litter! That report focuses on exclusively on agriculture (page 1). Atv's have a major potential to do environmental damage in the wrong hands and thousands of new riders take to the trails every year, constantly increasing the potential for destruction of habitat. I know no one wants to destroy this beautiful planet intentionally. It is a lack of knowledge that is more dangerous than anything. And the wrong attitude.




I believe that you're focusing on what bothers you and possibly expanding the truth a little bit.

Again, I understand your frustrations but you keep sighting ATV's when land development does more to harm what you love than a 1000 atv's could for sediment in the water. I know you're frustrated with the situation of hunting vs. loud (and illegal) atv's on our the land you hunt on and to me that is the greater issue for you here, not the erosion but rather it's disturbing what you love to do, which is the real point of your thread in my opinion.


Urban sprawl and land development make it harder for both of us to enjoy what we love.

[stoopidbot]

Originally posted by freelandhunter
There's no excuse to ruin even a little bit of it. What if everyone ruined just a little bit? Go around it, build a bridge over it, use switchbacks on a hill, whatever-just conserve it.
And there's just too much "it will grow back" talk. I keep hearing that you won't stop riding, so when will it grow back? Conservation starts with you! You are not a single rider but part of an army that has a great collective impact on the land! That shortcut you take will be followed by thousands more. Are you sure your new trail is necessary? Did you consider it's environmental impact?

Ear plugs again? Did you know that your muffler can be heard loud enough from a half mile away to drown out the sound of a deer approaching on dry leaves. Does it really have to be that loud? If there was a quiet muffler that increased performance just as much, would you use it? Come on. You just like the way it sounds and you know it!



Thanks again for your time. I agree with these. I run a loud pipe but it is within the legal limits of 98db. If they change the law I will change my pipe. Here in Colorado they have an alternating trail system. Every couple of years they close trails for regrowth and open up other ones that have been closed. The Rangers on are high alert on our trails. They blend right in with every other rider and they are more than willing to write nice fat tickets.

Not all ATVers are nature destroying pricks. I'm glad you realize that it is not 100% of us. I have personally yelled at kids for blasting through a natural mudbog that had big signs asking people to stay out for conservation reasons.

To bad every state is not like Colorado.

[Crazy lil punk]

Okay, enough is enough. There are plenty of people who hunt and damage the enviroment (sp?) as there are riders who damage it. So how about you "take the log out of your own eye before you take the spec out of another" (You seem like the guy who likes literary quotes, no offense intended)

You want to solve the worlds problems? Go ahead, I know what I am doing is okay, and for the majority of people, they do the right thing too.

[sprayedgt]

Originally posted by scuzz
You're kidding right?

Why else on earth do you think they are trying to outlaw lead in bullets? Just because you kill an animal when you shot it doesn't mean every last bit of shot went into it or even stayed in it. Animals that are shot and dressed out in the woods have a ton of lead left in them. Hawks, eagles, wolves, coyotes, bears and other scavengers ingest the lead and die from lead poisoning. Scavengers eat the remains of those animals. Its a never ending cycle. So the answer to your question is, No I'm not kidding.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by sprayedgt
Why else on earth do you think they are trying to outlaw lead in bullets? Just because you kill an animal when you shot it doesn't mean every last bit of shot went into it or even stayed in it. Animals that are shot and dressed out in the woods have a ton of lead left in them. Hawks, eagles, wolves, coyotes, bears and other scavengers ingest the lead and die from lead poisoning. Scavengers eat the remains of those animals. Its a never ending cycle. So the answer to your question is, No I'm not kidding.

The science behind that therory has been proved false. You wont die of lead poisoning from killing an animal with lead shot or with lead core bullets.

[freelandhunter]

I realize that there's dangers to the environment other than atvs. But this is an atv site. I am here to talk to atv riders about being more mindful of the potential for damage to the environment and relationships with non riders. By constantly pointing out the bad things that other groups do, you accomplish nothing but changing the subject. What good does it do to point out the atrocities of urban sprawl and lead poisoning on a site dedicated to atvs? Those people do not hear you!
Crazy lil punk, what does "take the log out of your own eye before you take the spec out of another" mean? Remember, no matter how okay we think we are, there's always room for improvement.
Stoopidbot, I've been to colorado many times, mostly hiking. It's a gorgeous state where outdoor activities are extremely popular and the attitudes of the people and gov't toward conservation seem far more serious than those in Pa. Kudos to Co. for setting a great example for everyone.

Scuzz, The point of my thread is to start a conversation about conservation. I've always been concerned about atvs damaging the planet but it was the invasion of my hunting grounds by a noisy, destructive, ever-growing army that spurred my activism. I'd love to save the rainforest and the oceans and the atmosphere and spotted owls and all that, but for now I'm only one man and I'm focused on the places that I frequent most, which are no less important than any of the above.

Thank you

[sprayedgt]

Originally posted by Pappy
The science behind that therory has been proved false. You wont die of lead poisoning from killing an animal with lead shot or with lead core bullets.

I disagree with you. This is not a theory, its a known FACT. The scientific proof is all over. No you may not die of it. A human would have to ingest many times more than say a bird in order to die of lead poisoning. You ingesting a hand full of lead shot is the equivalent of a bird ingesting just 5 or 6 pellets. Humans have the ability to discern what is edible food and what is inedible lead shot. Animals don't have that ability and eat whatever is mixed in whatever they're eating. Here's a few links that support it:

http://www.sandiegozoo.org/wordpress/default/condor-lead-poisoning-in-baja/

http://currents.ucsc.edu/06-07/09-11/condors.asp

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070819153340.htm

This is just a the first few that came up with a google search. There are so many more articles that support this fact.

[scuzz]

Originally posted by freelandhunter


Scuzz, The point of my thread is to start a conversation about conservation. I've always been concerned about atvs damaging the planet but it was the invasion of my hunting grounds by a noisy, destructive, ever-growing army that spurred my activism. I'd love to save the rainforest and the oceans and the atmosphere and spotted owls and all that, but for now I'm only one man and I'm focused on the places that I frequent most, which are no less important than any of the above.

Thank you



No, you said:



Originally posted by freelandhunter
Why not strap a chainsaw to your atv to clear obstacles instead of just making a new trail?


Sounds like you're advocating cutting down trees, brush and obstacles rather then someone going around them. Also, keep in mind that not everyone here rides in the woods or in an endangered swampland. Your chainsaw comment doesn't ring of conservationism to me.

Also you also seemed miffed that no one offered a hand to you when you were dragging a dear out of the woods.


Originally posted by freelandhunter
Third, I was recently dragging a deer out of the woods. When I came to a trail, 34 loud atvs drove past me. No one so much as made eye contact with me, let alone offer me a hand

Not everyone shares your enthusiasm for deer hunting and I doubt that a group of joggers running by you in the forest would have assisted either.


Now, with all that said I agree that people should be prosecuted for riding in areas that they are not supposed to. I pay each and every time I ride, sign a waver...the whole nine yards. I paid too much for my machine to lose it over something stupid like trespassing. My favorite place to ride is in a 300 acre sand pit, where as I mentioned before, I pay to ride in. I realize that there are other areas where riders don't have places accessible to them so they trespass and ride illegally - those people always get what they deserve via tickets and forfeiture.

If your intention is riders in your area you need to state that but blanket accusations will tend to make you come off troll-ish and unwelcome. Also, the issues in your area don't apply to every area. Many of the places that I have been riding (and paid to ride) we working ranches where most of the trails were made by livestock and were in very arid areas (I live in Central Texas). There isn't a wetland that I know if where I ride within 4 hours in any direction.

Someone in a previous post mentioned that you were in the wrong forum which may be the case as I can imagine that most of your statements would be incorrect for everyone I know and for every area that they ride in. I believe that your intentions are noble but rather misplaced in this forum and should be targeted to a more specific forum in your riding area.

[freelandhunter]

Originally posted by sprayedgt
I disagree with you. This is not a theory, its a known FACT. The scientific proof is all over. No you may not die of it. A human would have to ingest many times more than say a bird in order to die of lead poisoning. You ingesting a hand full of lead shot is the equivalent of a bird ingesting just 5 or 6 pellets. Humans have the ability to discern what is edible food and what is inedible lead shot. Animals don't have that ability and eat whatever is mixed in whatever they're eating. Here's a few links that support it:

http://www.sandiegozoo.org/wordpress/default/condor-lead-poisoning-in-baja/

http://currents.ucsc.edu/06-07/09-11/condors.asp

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070819153340.htm

This is just a the first few that came up with a google search. There are so many more articles that support this fact.

I agree that lead needs to be eliminated from hunting ammunition. That's a small victory for you: you've reached one hunter. And I promise you that I will tell other hunters.
Now back to "responsible riding" at "atvriders.com"....

[stoopidbot]

Originally posted by freelandhunter
I agree that lead needs to be eliminated from hunting ammunition. That's a small victory for you: you've reached one hunter. And I promise you that I will tell other hunters.
Now back to "responsible riding" at "atvriders.com".... I think we all got off on the wrong foot. You seem like a cool guy that just wants to keep our beautiful outdoors beautiful and I can respect that 110%. I feel the same way you do and I'm sure that most everyone on here does. I think WE all took it as an attack against our sport at first. Everyone has the right to enjoy our outdoors the way they please.It is unfortunate that they are bad apple in every sport or activity.

[freelandhunter]

Scuzz: Thanks for the kind words.
Removing a fallen tree from a trail can conserve the area next to the trail.
I also apologize for expecting strangers to help me with my bloody, tick-infested carcass. I admit that atv riders and I got off to a bad start and I'm sure many of you still hate me and my kind. That's ok. I believe that you can not fully understand your own argument until you fully understand your opponent's side of the story. I have learned a lot in my short time as a member of this site and I want to thank all who shared their opinion.

For those of you out there who always ride legally and responsibly, like Scuzz, you are not really who I am trying to reach. I am addressing the irresponsible ATV riders in the Freeland, Pennsylvania area in particular. But if one of this site's 80000+ members somewhere else hears me and realizes that his actions may be harmful and then thinks twice about driving through a swamp, then I've made a positive difference in this world.

I found this site by googling "ATV Freeland, Pa." There were threads from locals inviting anyone to come ride here and posts by others referring to the area. If they haven't heard me, they eventually will.

My core message is to just take consideration of your individual impact on this world. Sometimes life is just too enjoyable and we forget to stop and consider the consequences. I'm sorry if I offend anyone. I'm just a regular guy who means well but I know that I sometimes communicate my message with emotion rather than brains.

[scuzz]

I don't hate you or people like you, I respect people's views so long as they do mine, and you have.

We're all just here for information and to intelligently debate things.

[freelandhunter]

Originally posted by scuzz
True, but it would have to be an egregious act and not something done with an ATV on a massive scale. Farming is the greatest culprit of sediment pollution and I bet that ATV's make up a fraction of a percent of sediment pollution out there (although there are no official figures to support it) and that Farming is by far a bigger issue and violator of this.


Check out page 3...no mention of a-hole kids on ATV's or ATV's at all none-the less. So you're (pardon the pun) making a mountain out of a mole hill in your ATV-sediment argument.

http://www3.abe.iastate.edu/tsm424/TSM424TermProj2006/HangslebenSuhFinalPaper.pdf

More about sediment pollution. Where I hunt, there are old and new trails going straight up the side of the mountain. Many old trails have become so eroded and washed-out that they are no longer rideable. This leads to the new trails right next to them which no doubt face the same fate. There are streams downhill from these trails. Where do you think the washed out soil is going? When do you think the erosion will stop? There is a huge area on the side of the mountain eroded 600 feet top to bottom and 12oo feet across. Locals call it "the washout" It can be seen from I-80 and I've heard that truckers call it "the asscrack of Pa". I'm not sure what started it, but it is a reminder of what a careless act can start. The erosion continues to spread. The coordinates are 41.02'38.26"N 75.53'59.74". Now you can see this great shame of humanity for yourself on google earth or in person.

With ugly things like this, and abandoned strip mines, and dumping, etc. it's easy to see why someone might develop a sense of apathy toward conservation around here. Too much land here has been destroyed by many different groups and more will be taken by developers and miners. It is up to all of us to respect what's left.
Freeland is on the southeastern edge of the pocono plateau.
Check this link for a few facts about "one of the Earth's Last Great Places".
http://www.nature.org/wherewework/northamerica/states/pennsylvania/files/factsheet_pocono_mts.pdf

For those who think I'm in the wrong forum, sorry but I'm a hunter. I'm trying to reach people riding in my neck of the woods and this is where I tracked 'em. Ya gotta hunt your quarry where they live. (just a metaphor, not a literal threat)
I didn't see a conservation forum on the site- let alone a geographically specific conservation forum. If i'm in the wrong place, admin may move me to where they see fit.
Thanks again.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by sprayedgt
I disagree with you. This is not a theory, its a known FACT. The scientific proof is all over. No you may not die of it. A human would have to ingest many times more than say a bird in order to die of lead poisoning. You ingesting a hand full of lead shot is the equivalent of a bird ingesting just 5 or 6 pellets. Humans have the ability to discern what is edible food and what is inedible lead shot. Animals don't have that ability and eat whatever is mixed in whatever they're eating. Here's a few links that support it:

http://www.sandiegozoo.org/wordpress/default/condor-lead-poisoning-in-baja/

http://currents.ucsc.edu/06-07/09-11/condors.asp

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070819153340.htm

This is just a the first few that came up with a google search. There are so many more articles that support this fact.

You can disagree all you like, the latest data countering those claims regarding humans are public now, not on a google search. Try the CDC instead of google. Im tested monthly for lead, have been for the past 18 years, and I know a little about how it enters your blood stream and where it stays.

Infact, animals have an uncanny ability to NOT eat tainted food sources. They are smarter then the eco nazis want you to believe. Vultures are the only ones that need immediate protection, the rest willw ork itself out as sportsman transition to non toxic shot for all upland game....maybe you should pick on the fisherman who dump 1oz sinkers in every waterway in the country....to bad the mercury is worse then the lead!

I have a feeling we have some anti's in our midst.

[Pappy]

And Freelandhunter, I have seen more destruction to the land and animals by "hunters" then I have with atv's. I myself am a hunter and conservationalist, and I am less proud of "hunters" then I am any atv rider I have ever encountered in the woods.

i just read the part where you wished atv riders a broken leg....that was the end of this topic.

[scuzz]

Freelander,


What I'm saying is you're posting in a forum that has 49 other states that don't (probably) care.

If you want your voice heard try something local since most of what you're post doesn't seem to apply to the majority of the people here.

Here's a site that your voice may have more impact upon "in your neck of the woods":

http://www.paatving.com/forums/