leasureryan

[400exrider707]

Hey, I see the thread on swingarm bolts. Now I dont want to stir the pot anymore here... it was obviously getting tense in there.

Here's a simple solution for everyone who wanted to argue their point in that thread...


Do the math and post it here. I plan on doing it myself unless someone else beats me to it, just wont be for a day or two.

Prove to us using MATH that the hollow bolt is stronger. I will later prove that the solid is stronger. Though not MUCH stronger, it should be stronger.


Also all those bolts bend/seize over time, mostly due to lack of maintenance. I had to torch out the bolt on my 450R.

[hornetgod13]

I'm eager to see the results of your test. I'm certain already how it will turn out but, I think it will be eye opening to others. I know of four things that make a stock swingarm bolt difficult to remove and more proned to siezure. 1. Lack of Lubrication 2. Dissimilar metal corrosion. 3. Stress/Fatigue 4. Bolt composition (type of metal).

As for leasureryan, he one of only two people on this website that are on my ignore list. I'm done wasting my time responding to his posts.

[NJ450rider]

The only problem is lack of grease/lube. I seriously take my swing arm bolts out once or twice a year to re grease them. never had a problem ever.

[tri5ron]

Wow! I didn't expect you to get bent out of shape.

I do not need to do any research. I have plenty of experience as a jet aircraft mechanic in the Navy. I'm specifically trained to work on aircraft structures. Working onboard 6 different Aircraft Carriers and jet aircraft that are exposed to salt water on a daily basis, has made me pretty knowledgable on corrosion identification and metal fatigue. With my training, experience, and common sense it's obvious which will bend or break first. A 14mm diameter thick walled tube verus a 14mm solid bar made of the same material. Solid beats hollow everytime. Trust me!


__________________
to the above quote, I'm x2 ,
I'm 26 years in Aircraft repair and QA, military, and commercial. I've been required to go on the test flight of aircraft that I will be signing a 3130 form,(Return to Airworthy Condition/ Return to Service), on more planes than I can remember.
We don't use hollow bolts.

Wife is a Aerospace Engineer, currently assigned in Space programs, designing and testing satellites for NASA. she has extensive experience in military and space requirements.
She dosen't use hollow bolts.

Leasureryan, I also agree with hornetgod, that in many of your recent post's on various threads, you have a tendency to become rather aggressive in your replies and opinions.
many people come here for advise, hoping to draw from the experience of others, and gain some insightful information.
That experience may not necessarily come directly from riding ATV's, but rather it can come from a vast arena of personal and professional experience.

I have learned that no matter what my own personal experience is, that there is surely someone else out there who can give me some more insightful advise, that may come from a broader spectrum, than I am considering.
And when I am proven wrong, I do not feel the need to resort to childish name calling behind the security of my keyboard.

Take a chill pill dude.
There is really no need to blow a head gasket.
just my .02 cents worth.

[400exrider707]

Like I said, not here to stir the pot, just want the correct information posted. I will probably get to it monday morning when I get to work. First I need mesurements.

What is the OD of the bolt... (I can get that out of the other thread)

What is the ID of the stock bolt?

I'll use the same material to prove a point too, even though the solid ones on ebay and from LSR are all stainless.

Hopefully whoever is wrong, can be big enough to admit it once the math is proven.

[3or4HONDA]

leasureryan recently argued with me about jets, i didnt know he was known to be like that.

i just figured he was another expert that has to be right! haha

[buck440]

who cares, its just a bolt you retards

[hornetgod13]

Originally posted by buck440
who cares, its just a bolt you retards

There you go. Another genius. :rolleyes:

[dariusld]

Originally posted by 3or4HONDA
leasureryan recently argued with me about jets, i didnt know he was known to be like that.

i just figured he was another expert that has to be right! haha

He has said things in threads that are completely wrong. Its real annoying when people spread wrong information to those less knowledgable and can't see through his B.S..

[dunatic]

When you talk about strength, you should mention in what direction or motion.

As far as bending goes, it depends on the wall thickness. For example a 1mm hole thru the center of a 18mm bolt will make no difference as far as a swing arm bolt goes (knowing the stress that is put on it), but a 10mm hole will.

As far as twisting goes a hollow tube will twist and rebound much more accurately then a solid tube and in some cases not twist at all. The metallurgic characteristics of tubing with it's two surfaces make it a much stronger design.

Material compound may and can make absolutely all/no difference (i.e. titanium vs. seam welded mild steel)


Originally posted by 400exrider707
Hey, I see the thread on swingarm bolts. Now I dont want to stir the pot anymore here... it was obviously getting tense in there.

Here's a simple solution for everyone who wanted to argue their point in that thread...


Do the math and post it here. I plan on doing it myself unless someone else beats me to it, just wont be for a day or two.

Prove to us using MATH that the hollow bolt is stronger. I will later prove that the solid is stronger. Though not MUCH stronger, it should be stronger.


Also all those bolts bend/seize over time, mostly due to lack of maintenance. I had to torch out the bolt on my 450R.

[vAnS_77]

Originally posted by buck440
who cares, its just a bolt you retards

This person is right....All you guys are in need of is some automotive grease....Just take care of your quad and you won't have to worry about pounding out your swingarm bolt.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by vAnS_77
This person is right....All you guys are in need of is some automotive grease....Just take care of your quad and you won't have to worry about pounding out your swingarm bolt.

You dont ride hard enough. The bolts bend. Its not a matter of it seizing in there, even though they do. The bolts phsyically bend inside of there, usually from bad bearings. They can and will bend, then they will not slip through the spacers on the sides of the motor. Trying to hammer a bent bolt out of the swingarm can cause the cases to bust as well.

What happens if you buy a used quad and its already bent/seized. Still a problem some people have to face.

After reading some of the responses in the this thread, I am reminded of why I dont come here frequently anymore. This site is slowly being taken over by very immature people.



Dunatic - Agreed. In this case we're just looking at bending stress on the bolt, and the hole size in the stock bolt is big enough to make a difference in strength. The bolt for the swingarm doesn't have any twisting motions on it, so not an issue.

buck440 - if you dont care, dont post or even look in here. That post makes me laugh to myself and I cant help but think it's just over your head and you are going no where in life. Thanks for your constructive words.

Hornetgod13 - you are the only reason I'm even going to continue to calculate this out, because no one else seems to want to learn anything anymore other than what pipe is best for the 400ex.

If you dont want to learn, why are you here? I dont get it anymore!?

[400exrider707]

Also in case most of you dont know you can eliminate the lubrication problem for the most part by paying pappy $15 to molycoat your swinger bolt. I had it done on my 450R and it worked like a charm.



I still need the ID of the stock bolt or I cant do this...

[powermadd400ex]

heres a noobish question,
what causes the swinger bolt to bend inside the case? casing jumps and what not? or does it just happen over time as the bolt gets older and not as strong?

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by powermadd400ex
heres a noobish question,
what causes the swinger bolt to bend inside the case? casing jumps and what not? or does it just happen over time as the bolt gets older and not as strong?

Good question. From what I can tell it can only happen when the bearings wear out. I've even seen it get so bad that the bolt wallows out the holes in the frame. Once the bearings are shot it allows vertical movement of the bolt. Mine was bent and seized so bad in my 450 when I got it that I couldn't take it out while spinning it with am impact, applying heat, and hitting it with a sledge from the other side. It was bent so bad that spinning it with the impact would physically move the motor around inside the frame.

[dunatic]

[i]Dunatic - Agreed. In this case we're just looking at bending stress on the bolt, and the hole size in the stock bolt is big enough to make a difference in strength. The bolt for the swingarm doesn't have any twisting motions on it, so not an issue.

Then your talking about shear strength. Different types of mfg process of steel bar can have a different effect.

I can build a bolt that has a hollow center from material that is beyond most peoples means to purchase that you will never bend nor break.

Not saying you cant seize it from lack of lube, but you wont changes its original size, nor dimension.

At the same time I can make the same bolt from the same material that is solid with the same effect.

Using stainless steel as Shark Racing does, will only help to eliminate the premature corrosion effect that most mild steel bolts have. The type of material that he uses is no stronger than the cold rolled alloy steel in the OEM bolt.

I'm anxious to see your calculations. Be sure to include your metallurgic analysis and mfg process in your findings.

I spent some time in my younger years working for Oregon Industries. They make chainsaw blades (among other things). I worked in the department that studied various materials and stress loads.

Are you old enough to remember the Orca Whales that were trapped under the ice near the North Pole back in the late 80's ? We built some custom saw blades that were 10-15' long and chains that would cut thru 1000 year old ice and salt water without dulling.

That material was never duplicated, nor would it be marketable to the public (NASA - Aerospace kinda chiat) due to it's cost and mfg processes. Tough stuff it was. Every flake and scrap had to be accounted for and returned to the material mfg.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by dunatic
Then your talking about shear strength. Different types of mfg process of steel bar can have a different effect.

I can build a bolt that has a hollow center from material that is beyond most peoples means to purchase that you will never bend nor break.

Not saying you cant seize it from lack of lube, but you wont changes its original size, nor dimension.

At the same time I can make the same bolt from the same material that is solid with the same effect.

Using stainless steel as Shark Racing does, will only help to eliminate the premature corrosion effect that most mild steel bolts have. The type of material that he uses is no stronger than the cold rolled alloy steel in the OEM bolt.

I'm anxious to see your calculations. Be sure to include your metallurgic analysis and mfg process in your findings.

I spent some time in my younger years working for Oregon Industries. They make chainsaw blades (among other things). I worked in the department that studied various materials and stress loads.

Are you old enough to remember the Orca Whales that were trapped under the ice near the North Pole back in the late 80's ? We built some custom saw blades that were 10-15' long and chains that would cut thru 1000 year old ice and salt water without dulling.

That material was never duplicated, nor would it be marketable to the public (NASA - Aerospace kinda chiat) due to it's cost and mfg processes. Tough stuff it was. Every flake and scrap had to be accounted for and returned to the material mfg.


I'm planning on using Mc/I

Where M is the moment, C is distance from neutral axis to outer most fiber and I is polar moment of inertia

I = pi*D/64 for solid and
I = pi*(OD^4 - ID^4)/64 for hollow

Material doesn't really matter, I plan on using the same material with the same moment jsut to prove that hollow will not be stronger than solid in this case. That is all we're trying to prove or disprove.


A lot of times stainless is weaker than just plain cold rolled steel. Speaking in terms of yield strength anyways. There are tons of compositions of the two materials.

[bry14661]

Originally posted by buck440
who cares, its just a bolt you retards

haha post of the year! Hes got a point here. The whole thing started froma seized bolt, not a bent one. And only complete and utter morons allow there wheeler to get so ****ed up that the bolt bends from blown bearings. Come on ladies just use the stock bolt because ill be posting pics of a mod you can only do with this bolt. Just gotta get over to the shop to take pics so people will understand what im talking about.

[leasureryan]

ahhhh...this is great. I'm just going to sit back and watch how this turns out. Dunatic seems to know his stuff, and I never said I was the most informed person in the world, but I was under the impression that hollow was better than solid, depending on size and everything, obviously. I am agreeing with dunatic so far, and I want to see how 400ex707's math turns out...don't know why he choose my name a thread tittle...like I said...to my knowledge, a hollow swinger is stronger. It was designed that way for some reason. If I'm wrong...I'm wrong, which I am all the time apparently...lol...according to alot of these fellas on here...which is why I won't be posting helpful info here anymore, as I wouldn't want to point anyone in the wrong direction or anything...lol I will leave that up to the guys that seem to know everything :)

Oh yeah,,,and I can't spell either

[dunatic]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
I'm planning on using Mc/I

Where M is the moment, C is distance from neutral axis to outer most fiber and I is polar moment of inertia

I = pi*D/64 for solid and
I = pi*(OD^4 - ID^4)/64 for hollow

Material doesn't really matter, I plan on using the same material with the same moment jsut to prove that hollow will not be stronger than solid in this case. That is all we're trying to prove or disprove.


A lot of times stainless is weaker than just plain cold rolled steel. Speaking in terms of yield strength anyways. There are tons of compositions of the two materials.

good equation....let me check it against my notes. It's been a while.

but since the factory didn't make a solid bolt, what will you use for your composition of metal ?

Using a standard formula for bar vs. tubing may show some variance towards the bar stock, but if we are comparing actual available items the bar stock bolts may be even weaker than a tube style based upon material composition.

Like I said, depending on the type of material used and wall thickness it could have lill to no effect in the amount of stress of your axis and thrust.

[Pipeless416]

Originally posted by leasureryan
ahhhh...this is great. I'm just going to sit back and watch how this turns out. Dunatic seems to know his stuff, and I never said I was the most informed person in the world, but I was under the impression that hollow was better than solid, depending on size and everything, obviously. I am agreeing with dunatic so far, and I want to see how 400ex707's math turns out...since he called me out, for what I don't know...like I said...to my knowledge, a hollow swinger is stronger. It was designed that way for some reason. If I'm wrong...I'm wrong, which I am all the time apparently...lol...according to alot of these fellas on here...which is why I won't be posting helpful info here anymore, as I wouldn't want to point anyone in the wrong direction or anything...lol I will leave that up to the guys that seem to know everything :)

Not trying to steal the thread..

Ryan- nobody is saying you are always wrong. however, it does seem that your responses are always the only correct answers according to you. forums are great because of the many minds are stronger than one mind concept. people get frustrated when it seems to be your way or the highway. all we ask is that you try to be more open to opinions beside your own.

[leasureryan]

sorry dudes...I'll work on that....it's hard for me....I'm a man

[dunatic]

this I pulled from the net, but causes some concern of your formula

The Area Moment Of Inertia of a beams cross-sectional area measures the beams ability to resist bending. The larger the Moment of Inertia the less the beam will bend.

The moment of inertia is a geometrical property of a beam and depends on a reference axis. The smallest Moment of Inertia about any axis passes through the centroid.


then...........

The Polar Area Moment Of Inertia of a beams cross-sectional area measures the beams ability to resist torsion.

The larger the Polar Moment of Inertia the less the beam will twist.

since the beam is essentially supported by bearings (that are in good shape, well lubed and the beam or centroid of axis is straight........meaning all the components are new, straight and perfectly true to one another) there should be no twisting action or minimal to no effect.

The problem with any of these equations is that the bar (bolt) is essentially supported only by the tabs at the outer ends which are no greater than 3/16" wide.

The area that passes thru the engine cases is not a support of the bolt, but more for the motor. Its not a machined tolerance equal to the frame.

Not to mention the thrust or side load that is created by the tightening action on the bolt to the thrust washers and dust caps have a binding effect and can severally effect your motion action of the equation.

In a perfect world where there is no forces other than which we fabricate or induce intentionally even there is no way to replicate exactly what is happening at the butt ends of our bikes.

[dunatic]

I love brain teasers......... mathematical formulas are great for that.

I once designed a +4 rear swing arm system that used unequal length arms and with more than 12 inches of wheel travel it had less than 1/16" inch variance of axis parallel points.

The chain never needed adjusted because it never bound thus causing it to stretch.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by bry14661
haha post of the year! Hes got a point here. The whole thing started froma seized bolt, not a bent one. And only complete and utter morons allow there wheeler to get so ****ed up that the bolt bends from blown bearings. Come on ladies just use the stock bolt because ill be posting pics of a mod you can only do with this bolt. Just gotta get over to the shop to take pics so people will understand what im talking about.

They can seize from bending. They bend and then they wont pass through the cases or the spacers. I would like to say I would never let this happen, but I bought my quad that way. So in reality some of us will have to deal with it at some point, whether we're the ones to blame or not.


Dunatic - I understand where you're coming from. I plan on using the same material for the solid and the hollow bolt, and I realize the formula doesn't exactly show us the true forces the bolt is experiencing, but it does show us which is stronger in resisting bending, the solid or hollow.

leasureryan - you were kind of right but I dont think you knew it. A hollow bolt will resist twisting more than a solid one, but for bending stresses the solid will almost always win. At least you're also man enough to admit when you were wrong. +1 in my book. :cool:

Also note that the stainless solid bolts sold, are usually not any stronger than the stock material ones.

[vAnS_77]

There is no equation to this problem. Like I said, it's call working on your quad checking for problems after you ride every so often. Your swingarm bolt isn't going to get bent after 5 months of riding. Taking out your swing arm bolt and lubing it back up is the most important thing you can do. Every time you take it, inspect the bearing for damage.Some of us rebuild our quads every year.

[Pipeless416]

Originally posted by vAnS_77
There is no equation to this problem. Like I said, it's call working on your quad checking for problems after you ride every so often. Your swingarm bolt isn't going to get bent after 5 months of riding. Taking out your swing arm bolt and lubing it back up is the most important thing you can do. Every time you take it, inspect the bearing for damage.Some of us rebuild our quads every year.

have you ever been in a physics class... :rolleyes: theres an equation to explain and to predict the reaction for nearly everything. this isn't about just taking care of the quad. please, no more ignorant posts in this thread..

[vAnS_77]

Originally posted by Pipeless416
have you ever been in a physics class... :rolleyes: theres an equation to explain and to predict the reaction for nearly everything. this isn't about just taking care of the quad. please, no more ignorant posts in this thread..

Ignorant post, this whole thread is ignorant. You don't need to solve a bent swing arm bolt/lack taking care of your quad with an equation. Period. You guys make me laugh. Stop wasting your time.

[Pipeless416]

Originally posted by vAnS_77
Ignorant post, this whole thread is ignorant. You don't need to solve a bent swing arm bolt/lack taking care of your quad with an equation. Period. You guys make me laugh. Stop wasting your time.

you're never too cool to stay in school! :o :D

[Brauap]

Ok. I am missing something here.. what is going on? What started this contraversy? I am very courious, because everyone seems to be hating on him, but I don't know why. He always seemed to be alright with me.. but then again, he is alot like me! haha I think I am right until someone can prove me wrong. I try to learn, but alot of times I, too, get bagged on, over, and over, and over, and over again! I am just surprise no one has started a hating thread about me yet.. (or atleast to my knowlesge there hasn't been one.. :ermm: )

[leasureryan]

it's no big deal bro....they were just having a hard time accepting that my hollow bolt was stronger theory. I was right, but not for the right reasons I guess....oh well. Plus I am an arrogant d!ck who uses foul language and can't spell.....apparently?!?

hollow=strong againt twist breaks

solid= stronger against bend/break

Or have you guys confused me again?

Either way, I could care less. I will always replace with OEM parts, and all I was doing was trying to convince others to do the same

[400exrider707]

What's so ingorant about posting data? The only thing that makes threads ignorant is the ignorant people in them. There seems to be quite a bit in this one. I give up. No one could post the ID of the stock bolt, and only one or two people even seem to be interested in finding out factual information. Why do most of you even bother coming here? All you can do is rag on people for trying to learn, and then when you do post it's a waste of space.

leasureryan, what you just posted is correct. Hollow is better for resisting twisting forces, but solid is better for bending.

Brauap - there was another thread that has since been locked and I can see why. Too many stupid people who think they all know everythign without posting the facts to back any of it up. Then you get kids in here telling everyone they're dumb for trying to learn. Makes sense to me.

vAnS_77 - please stop posting in here since you obviously dont care to learn. Post your maintenance tricks and tips up and be usefull since you apparently have never had one issue with your quad because you rebuild once a year. :rolleyes: Is a rebuild once a year supposed to be a lot?

Oh you're right your swingarm bolt isn't going to get bent after 5 months of riding, in fact it will happen on one trip. That's really all it takes is one force to exceed the yield strength of the bolt to deform it. Could happen on your first ride, and it might never happen, but for a lot of people it HAS happened. Like I've already said, I bought my quad that way and it was already bent and seized, it wasn't from my lack of maintenance, it was ALREADY like that. Some people just dont have the luxury to buy something brand new.

If you think we make you laugh, you should try the other side of the fence, because you are getting absolutely ridiculous. I am done with this. If anyone would like to get the ID of the stock bolt and see the math, please PM me, I am done trying to help anyone in the 400ex section anymore.:ermm:

[hornetgod13]

400exrider707,
Don't let a couple inbred knuckle draggers chase you off. That's what they want. Just ignore them and their pointless posts.

Here's the measurements you were requesting. The outside diameter is 14.85mm and the inside diameter is 6.75mm.

[tri5ron]

Ditto to what Hornetgod said,
Some of us here are actually interested in this thread.
I enjoy the exchange of information, and stat's from knowledgeable, and intellegent participation on this forum.

Albiet, it often does get dilluted with some people, who dont care to contribute anything of value.

trust me, I've had plenty of times on this forum, that aggrevate me to no end, and I get rather irratated at some members terminology and conduct. (and occaisionally I let them know it).

Hang in there, and dont let the trolls living under the bridge, cause you to abandon the house.

[Pappy]

I locked the other thread due to it being reported, and I let this one go so that hopefully some air would clear and it would work itself out....which I think it now has.


400exrider707......over look the crap, life is full of it and the only way we win is to not let them run amuck. Dispell them with facts and rest assured the remained of us appreciate the efforts.


And to add....

I have seen seized bolts from the showroom floor, bent bolts on the virgin ride and solid bolts break and bend. So to those that say it cant happen, BS, I have seen it countless times.

[sc400ex_rider]

leasureryan you need to get a job you dont have to answer every thread. you dont need to talk down to people like your god. you just always come off looking like a shmuck. you just got called out for it but i see you will never change. maybe it time to buy a 450 or something. i see your from ohio so that explains alot. they seem to be like that on other forums also. there stuff is great your stuff is crap, they know everything you are stupid. you dont have to be rude, the sad thing is you dont even realize it
:rolleyes:

[leasureryan]

And then this guy just loves poking me with a stick so much, he had to copy paste what he wrote in one thread, and put it here.....he is just mad cuz I can surf the net all day at work while being paid good money to do so...lol...whatever buddy. Go kick your dog or argue with your wife if you need to take out some frustration