how to remove carb?

[TINKRD]

did a search and couldnt find any writeups.

i've losened the clamp so its free from the engine. Do i have to remove the all fuel lines and throttle cable? i ordered my JD jet kit and and getting ready for it to arrive.

I did pull off the black hose on the shifter side of the motor and it fuel came out so i reconnected it. i guess this is the feed line from the tank? is the other black hose on the other side of the carb a return line??

looking for pics or how to threads.

thanks,
noobie

also i'm reading about the air screw. that's not the black knob screw on the side of the car, correct? the air screw is somewhere underneath the carb??

[eerhard09]

You do not need to remove the carb completely to rejet or to install a new needle. Remove the air box by removing the 4 screws that bolt it to the frame and the clamp that holds the air boot to the back of the carb. Then, loosen the clamp on the front of the carb and pull the carb straight back. Once loose, you can get the top off to get to the needle and can turn it so the bottom faces the left side. THis allows for access to the bottom of the carb. Reverse the order to put it back on. EASY!

Ok, since I do not know if this is for an IRS or an SRA model, I will say this is how to do it on the IRS! I have no experience on the SRA so I can't answer that part. I would assume that it can be jetted while still on the bike as well.

[U1arunit]

The black knob is for the idle speed.

The fuel screw is in the bottom of the front of the carb. It's kinda hard to adjust since you can't reach it easily. There are places that sell ones that have a knob you can turn with your fingers which makes it easier like this one:
http://www.jdjetting.com/xcart/product.php?productid=85&cat=4&page=1

Let us know if you need more help as you go.

[TINKRD]

Thanks for the info! yes, this is for an IRS. i had already removed the airbox assembly. I'll take a pic tomorrow, but am i to remove the plate directly on top of the carb? and this is where the jets and needle are? i belive there are 2 allen head screws there iirc.

only mods to the bike are a k&n filter. from what i've been reding i need to use the red needle. dont know which clip to put it on though. 1-5?? guess i'll see what all that is when i get the plate off and see the jets, needles.

100% noob when it comes to carbs.

[U1arunit]

The needle comes out the top. The main jet comes out thru the float bowl drain bolt hole.

Just follow the good directions in the JD kit.

I have a slip on FMF muffler and stock filter and air box and at my elevation of about 1200feet I run the red needle on the fifth clip position and the 165 main with good results. I also changed the included leak jet and installed the smaller o-ring on the accelerator pump linkage.

Just take your time and let us know how it goes.

[Chris525]

and about the black lines
the one you pulled off and fuel came out is the feed line
if you ever want to take it off for anything just shut off the fuel under the tank first
the other one is the crankcase breather line (no fuel)

[Chris525]

here you go there is some pretty good info in this forum on what everyone else is running for jetting


http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=343194


I am @ 1000' , K&N, open air box, bafffle removed on exhaust
165 main
48 pilot
blue needle 4th clip
A/F screw 1 1/2 out
big o-ring
Runs Sweet

[TINKRD]

thanks for all the info guys!! i'm feeling pretty confident once my JD kit gets here. i've removed everything except the throttle cable. i'll probably take that off too so i can jet teh carb on my work bench. i dont want to mess anythign up or drop anything with my fat fingers. lol

under this cap, is that where the air/fuel screw is that i've read about??

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d133/jaypee1217/carb.jpg

[TINKRD]

or is the air/fuel screw this?? if so , how the heck to you turn it b/c i dont see a alan head screw inside of it, etc.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d133/jaypee1217/100_2118-1.jpg

[U1arunit]

Originally posted by TINKRD
or is the air/fuel screw this?? if so , how the heck to you turn it b/c i dont see a alan head screw inside of it, etc.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d133/jaypee1217/100_2118-1.jpg

Sorry so long to reply. That little plug gets removed so you can see the fuel screw.

The main jet lives under the large drain plug.

Keep us posted on your progress.

[eerhard09]

That cover needs to be removed using a drill. DO NOT DRILL TOO DEEP, maybe 1/8", and you will be through it. use a small bit first then go to a larger one and it will come right out, VERY EASY!.

Seat the fuel screw all the way in but not tight, just until it touches. Back it out 2 turns.

Be careful when screwing the large main jet cover also, do not over tighten it because it is fairly thin and will bend easily. Just snug it up to where fuel doesn't drip from it, the o-ring on it will hold it tight and seal it.

[U1arunit]

Another easy way is just to remove the fuel bowl since you are taking the carb to the work bench and use a punch to drive the aluminum plug out from the inside. One little tap is all it will take.

You can also screw a small sheet metal screw into it a couple threads and use a pliers to pull the screw out with the plug attached to it.

[TINKRD]

so remove that cover. what type of screw is below it? allen head, phillips, flat head??

i want to make sure i'll have what i need.

thanks for all the replies :)

[U1arunit]

Originally posted by TINKRD
so remove that cover. what type of screw is below it? allen head, phillips, flat head??

i want to make sure i'll have what i need.

thanks for all the replies :)

Just a regular slotted screw.

[eerhard09]

Small flat head. It is not really a traditional screw looking thing but it is adjusted with a flat head screwdriver. Changing the jetting is very simple if you can turn a screwdriver you will be fine.

[TINKRD]

how's the adjustable screw you can order from JD's site? $17 but would be worth it if it enables you to adjust the bike while running.

[U1arunit]

Originally posted by TINKRD
how's the adjustable screw you can order from JD's site? $17 but would be worth it if it enables you to adjust the bike while running.

James recommended one and I figured that as long as I had it apart it was a good time to install one. It's real easy to adjust.

[eerhard09]

Originally posted by U1arunit
James recommended one and I figured that as long as I had it apart it was a good time to install one. It's real easy to adjust.

U1arunit, the adjustable screw didn't cause a bog on your quad? I know most others, including myself, who have tried the adjustable screws got the bog when we put in the aftermarket screw. As soon as we switched back, the bog went away....

[U1arunit]

Originally posted by eerhard09
U1arunit, the adjustable screw didn't cause a bog on your quad? I know most others, including myself, who have tried the adjustable screws got the bog when we put in the aftermarket screw. As soon as we switched back, the bog went away....

Nope it works flawless. I can wick it WOT and it flat out screams w/o a bog.

I am so happy with the current setup that I am scared to touch it so I am leaving it be. I am 1.75 turns out on the JD screw.

Are you guys with the bog using the JD one and if so which one? I think the web site lists two different ones.

[eerhard09]

I can't remember which screw it was that I was using but I definitely didn't buy it from JD. I will jump on their site to check them out. I don't really need to mess with it now though, I am running very well as it is!

[U1arunit]

Originally posted by eerhard09
I can't remember which screw it was that I was using but I definitely didn't buy it from JD. I will jump on their site to check them out. I don't really need to mess with it now though, I am running very well as it is!

I would leave it as is then. I know I am not changing a thing. ;)

[TINKRD]

got it done!!:devil:

i feel like an idiot as it was extremely easy. JD's instructions were very easy to read and follow. :cool:

what exactly do the needles do? i know the blue is supposed to run richer. what is the purpose of the clips?

im at 600 ft elevation. have k&n filter, no lid and will be removing the baffle soon.

i put the blue needle in w/ the clip in the 3rd slot (as instructed by the directions by JD)

i put the 165 main jet in. i did not put the leak jet in, but did put the big oring in.

the stumble from the low rpm's is 100% gone :D :D :D

now if its at complete idle and i go 100% it'll die. but if i blip it it doesnt die. ramps right up. i used to blip it and it'd die.

i rapped it out and decelerated in gear from a high rpm's. it did pop or back fire on two different occassions. its not nearly as bad as what it used to backfire. should i go up another on teh main jet??

thanks again for all the help!!!

[U1arunit]

Here is the next step, the "plug chop":

Checking the Main Jet– Warm up the engine and go for a short ride letting the engine comes up to its normal operating temperature. Install a brand new plug that's been properly gapped. With the new plug installed aggressively accelerate through the gears until you reach 4th or 5th gear. For best results you should accelerate up a slight up hill section to place additional load on the engine. Continue to run the engine at WOT for 20 to 30 seconds longer if there is not fear the engine is running lean. If you suspect the engine is running lean 15 to 20 seconds to give you an indication. At the end of your full throttle run simultaneously push the kill button, chop the throttle and pull in the clutch. This procedure is often refereed to as a " plug chop". It is important to perform a plug chop exactly as described. If you allow the engine to run or leave the throttle open for even a few seconds after the plug chop the plug reading will be invalid. Now remove the spark plug and carefully look at its color.

Plug Reading - What does a good plug look like? First you need to know where to look and what to look for. I’ve seen a lot of plug reading instruction that suggest you to look at the general appearance of the plug. That doesn’t work. The easily visible portion of the plug, the upper part of the porcelain and the electrodes, won’t give you an accurate reading. This area is mostly affected by additives in the gasoline and the oil you’re running. To get an accurate indication you want to look down inside the plug where the porcelain insulator emerges from the steal body of the spark plug. Ideally you should see a ring of light brown/tan at the lower 1/4 of the porcelain. White is lean and you’ll need to install the next richer main jet( larger number ) and do another plug reading. A dark brown to black ring is too rich and you’ll need to install the next leaner main jet ( smaller number ). A small flashlight and magnifying glass make this much easier to see and it’ll give your friends something to poke fun at. If you ride in a diverse area with fluctuations in temperature greater than 15 degrees F, and altitude changes dropping more that 3000 feet over the course of the day or you ride in high load conditions ( loose sand, mud, long steep hills ) adjust the size of your main jet until you reach the ideal condition then install the next richer main jet which should result in a dark brown plug reading. You'll be loosing a small amount of top end power in trade for the added confidence that you can ride aggressively over the course of the day without fear of running lean at WOT.

Checking the Jet Needle – Once you have the main jet properly sized you can turn your attention to the jet needle. Warm up the engine and go for a short ride until the engine comes up to its normal operating temperature. Install a brand new plug that has been properly gapped. With the new plug installed accelerate through the gears until you reach 4th gear. For best results you should find a location that allows you to run safely at half throttle with out having to ex or decelerate to avoid obstacles etc. A long straight away or well groomed oval track will work the best. Continue to run the engine at half throttle for more than 60 seconds if possible. Do a plug chop and inspect the plug. If the plug indicates a lean condition, lower the clip on the needle by one position. Lowering the clip by one position raises the needle further out of the needle jet allowing more gasoline to flow, richening the circuit. If the plug is dark brown to black raise the clip’s position by one notch to lean the circuit. As a general rule if you need to run the clip in the top position you should install a leaner jet needle. If you need to run the clip in the bottom position you should install a richer jet needle. Jet needle selection is something of an art. Watch for an article in the near future describing PWK jet needle profiles in more detail. This method will give you a good ball park indication if you jet needle is properly sized. However due to inefficient cylinder scavenging at lower throttle settings its often little more that a ball park indication and you'll need to fine tune by feel.

Once you're satisfied with the appearance of the plug turn to the jetting by feel method to fine-tune the circuit. Gradually roll the throttle open from 1/2 to 3/4 throttle paying particular attention to the sound and the type of power delivery. Having an experienced friend on the sidelines to listen and watch the silencer for excessive smoke is also helpful. A rich condition will result in excessive smoke from the silencer, the plug will often carbon foul and the engine will produce a sputtering/crackling sound. A lean condition will result in slow throttle response, you twist the throttle but the power delivery is lethargic and flat. A lean condition results in a tell tale booooooha sound as well. You can quickly verify a lean condition by pulling the choke half way out. Engaging the choke will deliver additional fuel to the system and the symptoms of a lean condition should clear up.

[TINKRD]

Originally posted by U1arunit
Here is the next step, the "plug chop":

Checking the Main Jet– Warm up the engine and go for a short ride letting the engine comes up to its normal operating temperature. Install a brand new plug that's been properly gapped. With the new plug installed aggressively accelerate through the gears until you reach 4th or 5th gear. For best results you should accelerate up a slight up hill section to place additional load on the engine. Continue to run the engine at WOT for 20 to 30 seconds longer if there is not fear the engine is running lean. If you suspect the engine is running lean 15 to 20 seconds to give you an indication. At the end of your full throttle run simultaneously push the kill button, chop the throttle and pull in the clutch. This procedure is often refereed to as a " plug chop". It is important to perform a plug chop exactly as described. If you allow the engine to run or leave the throttle open for even a few seconds after the plug chop the plug reading will be invalid. Now remove the spark plug and carefully look at its color.

Plug Reading - What does a good plug look like? First you need to know where to look and what to look for. I’ve seen a lot of plug reading instruction that suggest you to look at the general appearance of the plug. That doesn’t work. The easily visible portion of the plug, the upper part of the porcelain and the electrodes, won’t give you an accurate reading. This area is mostly affected by additives in the gasoline and the oil you’re running. To get an accurate indication you want to look down inside the plug where the porcelain insulator emerges from the steal body of the spark plug. Ideally you should see a ring of light brown/tan at the lower 1/4 of the porcelain. White is lean and you’ll need to install the next richer main jet( larger number ) and do another plug reading. A dark brown to black ring is too rich and you’ll need to install the next leaner main jet ( smaller number ). A small flashlight and magnifying glass make this much easier to see and it’ll give your friends something to poke fun at. If you ride in a diverse area with fluctuations in temperature greater than 15 degrees F, and altitude changes dropping more that 3000 feet over the course of the day or you ride in high load conditions ( loose sand, mud, long steep hills ) adjust the size of your main jet until you reach the ideal condition then install the next richer main jet which should result in a dark brown plug reading. You'll be loosing a small amount of top end power in trade for the added confidence that you can ride aggressively over the course of the day without fear of running lean at WOT.

Checking the Jet Needle – Once you have the main jet properly sized you can turn your attention to the jet needle. Warm up the engine and go for a short ride until the engine comes up to its normal operating temperature. Install a brand new plug that has been properly gapped. With the new plug installed accelerate through the gears until you reach 4th gear. For best results you should find a location that allows you to run safely at half throttle with out having to ex or decelerate to avoid obstacles etc. A long straight away or well groomed oval track will work the best. Continue to run the engine at half throttle for more than 60 seconds if possible. Do a plug chop and inspect the plug. If the plug indicates a lean condition, lower the clip on the needle by one position. Lowering the clip by one position raises the needle further out of the needle jet allowing more gasoline to flow, richening the circuit. If the plug is dark brown to black raise the clip’s position by one notch to lean the circuit. As a general rule if you need to run the clip in the top position you should install a leaner jet needle. If you need to run the clip in the bottom position you should install a richer jet needle. Jet needle selection is something of an art. Watch for an article in the near future describing PWK jet needle profiles in more detail. This method will give you a good ball park indication if you jet needle is properly sized. However due to inefficient cylinder scavenging at lower throttle settings its often little more that a ball park indication and you'll need to fine tune by feel.

Once you're satisfied with the appearance of the plug turn to the jetting by feel method to fine-tune the circuit. Gradually roll the throttle open from 1/2 to 3/4 throttle paying particular attention to the sound and the type of power delivery. Having an experienced friend on the sidelines to listen and watch the silencer for excessive smoke is also helpful. A rich condition will result in excessive smoke from the silencer, the plug will often carbon foul and the engine will produce a sputtering/crackling sound. A lean condition will result in slow throttle response, you twist the throttle but the power delivery is lethargic and flat. A lean condition results in a tell tale booooooha sound as well. You can quickly verify a lean condition by pulling the choke half way out. Engaging the choke will deliver additional fuel to the system and the symptoms of a lean condition should clear up.

Great read :) i'll be sure to get an extra plug when i go to get oil and filters.

[eerhard09]

My guess is, with the stock exhaust, blue needle, and a 165 main, you are going to be rich. It may be running stronger but my guess is, you are missing out on some drowned out power. Many of the guys on predator owners are running open an air box, K&N, and an aftermarket exhaust and are running the leaner red needle with a 162-165 main. Te blue needle is a very rich needle compared to the red. I, in fact, run the blue in the winter months when the temps are consistently below 50 degrees because of the added fuel and the higher concentration of oxygen in the air. I would think that if it is cold where you are live, you may be pretty close but I think just a tad rich on the top which will not hurt you.

[TINKRD]

Originally posted by eerhard09
My guess is, with the stock exhaust, blue needle, and a 165 main, you are going to be rich. It may be running stronger but my guess is, you are missing out on some drowned out power. Many of the guys on predator owners are running open an air box, K&N, and an aftermarket exhaust and are running the leaner red needle with a 162-165 main. Te blue needle is a very rich needle compared to the red. I, in fact, run the blue in the winter months when the temps are consistently below 50 degrees because of the added fuel and the higher concentration of oxygen in the air. I would think that if it is cold where you are live, you may be pretty close but I think just a tad rich on the top which will not hurt you.

yeah i sat there and toyed with the notion in my head for about 20 min's. i'd rather be a little fat on the big end and lose some power then be lean. i'm in Dallas, and its in the 60's right now during the day. we have very mild winters. i might throw in the red and put the clip at the richer setting and see how it reacts.

[eerhard09]

Try the red needle on the 4th and 5th clip (try both) and drop down to a 162 main. And the fuel screw, try 2 turns out.

[TINKRD]

Originally posted by eerhard09
Try the red needle on the 4th and 5th clip (try both) and drop down to a 162 main. And the fuel screw, try 2 turns out.

i'll give that a go tomorrow. i forgot to mention in my post the fuel screw is set at 1 3/4 turns out right now.

there's a noticable difference in the 1/2 throttle grunt and low end torque. i can tell on the big end there's more there, but its not "night and day" like i've read about. perhaps i am overly rich w/ the 1 3/4 turns and blue needle....

i'll experiment and let ya'll know what happens.

[eerhard09]

Check out this thread:

Dyno tuning Outlaws (http://www.predatorowners.com/index.cfm?action=thread&catid=99&topid=769&thrid=49261)

[SSJEFF]

Compliments of predatorowners
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg101/outlawjeff/Predatorowners/Keihin%20How%20To/BottomKeihin.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg101/outlawjeff/Predatorowners/Keihin%20How%20To/Innerbowl.jpg

[TINKRD]

thanks for all the helpful info. now that i've seen the inside of the carb, i actually understand the tuning threads when i read them. :D

I've got a rematch coming up with a buddy of mine. Last weekend we went riding and he's got a YFZ 450 that has a head pipe, exhaust, high comp. piston, intake and jetted.

we drag raced several times and i could only win if i got a good hole shot. if he jumped out on me there was no reeling him in. we never went from a roll race so i dont know how "even" the bikes are. i'm definitely interested now that i've tuned mine some :devil: my 13 tooth sprocket comes in this week sometime too!

can't wait to get a full exhaust and run him again.

[U1arunit]

The 13T front is going to lower your top speed, probably about 4-5 MPH or so(maybe). Be prepared for the front end to come up immediately at anything near WOT. You will need to take the holeshot for sure to have a chance.

[SSJEFF]

do a 2nd gear start, full throttle and pop the clutch, you should give him a good run then. Now if there is too much traction the second gear start will bog it.

I am not sur ewhy you are going to the 13, you will loose a lot of top end and it will really want to wheely. I went to a 15-39 or a 14-36

[Evasiveone]

If you are in Dallas definately go to the red needle and run what Eerahard 09 suggested. You are missing out on a lot of power with the Blue needle. I only throw in the blue needle if the temperature is consistently below freezing.

Like the others said, with the fast revving engine of the 525 and good low end torque you will not be happy with the 13 tooth, of course unless you want to do some wicked burnouts or look at the sky a lot :).

[TINKRD]

i decided to go w/ the 13 b/c where i ride we hardly ever get out of 4th gear, let alone topping out 5th.

i'll slap it on and see what happens, if i dont like it i'll put the 14 back on.

thanks for the info, i'll be trying out the red needle as soon as i get home.

[Evasiveone]

When taking off the sprocket bolt be very careful. Many have had it snap right off.

Spray it down with a good penetrating spray and give it time to work in and make sure to tap/wack that bolt several times before trying to take it out. I did the above and mine came right out very easily, others have not been nearly as fortunate.

[TINKRD]

Originally posted by Evasiveone
When taking off the sprocket bolt be very careful. Many have had it snap right off.

Spray it down with a good penetrating spray and give it time to work in and make sure to tap/wack that bolt several times before trying to take it out. I did the above and mine came right out very easily, others have not been nearly as fortunate.

thanks. i'll be sure to let some PB Catalyst soak on it for awhile :cool:

[SSJEFF]

The bolt holding the front sprocket broke on mine. It was brand new, rode it down the street and back. It looked as if it was red loctited in. a little heat on the head may make things better also IMO.

I had to drill it out and then tap it.

[TINKRD]

well went w/ the red needle. 5th clip down.

low end tq is awesome. i'm having doubts about the 13T sprocket :eek: With traction i'm having a hard time keeping the nose down in 2nd gear, forget 1st.

top end feels good. ramped it through 4th. still having the "pop" on decel. perhaps i'll try the fuel screw a full 2 turns out (currently at 1 3/4 out) and if it still there then change the main jet?

[eerhard09]

How much pop on decel? You will have a little when letting it decelerate with the engine on a properly tuned carb. If it is not excessive you should be ok. Mine has small pops when engine decelerating and the jetting is good all the way through (according to the AF sensor on the dyno). I would do some plug chops to check it out. That or find a local place that dyno tunes. I got my Outlaw dyno tuned for $50 so you may be able to know exactly what your jetting is doing across the board! for a little money and a lot of peace of mind!

[TINKRD]

jsut a little pop on decel from high rpm's. i'm going to change the oil this weekend and get a new plug in there to check it all out.

thanks for all the help :)

[U1arunit]

I get a little pop or two when coming down quickly from a very high rpm. Seems to be the norm more than something isolated.

Glad that it's running well for you. Keep us posted if you guys race!

[Evasiveone]

What they said. The pop/crackle on decel is pretty common with the 525 engine, especially with the stock head, no concern there. You just want to avoid that loud gunshot.

[sheriff525]

I like the loud gunshot sound!

[TINKRD]

well i went riding this weekend and developed a problem. bike is running great. lots of power up top and low end grunt.

towards the end of riding for about an hour the bike started to stumble as if it was running out of gas. i check the tank ( i knew i was low) and sure enough there was gas sloshing around. I am in the fields around my house so i start to cruise at a medium RPM' home. bike stutters a few times, but again, gas is in the tank. low, but not empty.

i get home let the bike cool off. come back in an hour and the bike wont start. i start checking over everything and the only thing i could see wrong was one of the lines on the right side (rear brake side) of the carb had come off. Not sure what the line goes to. its one of the clear ones and it starts to run up towards the tank (never pulled the plastics off). i reconnect but the bike still wont fire.

at this point i go in. i'll get some fresh gas tonight and top the tank off. not sure what could be going wrong. i tried to get the sprak plug out to check it to make sure i'm getting spark, but couldnt find a deep socket that was skinny enough to get down over the plug.

[U1arunit]

That sucks. It should have come with a special thin wall socket for the plug. Did you check with your owners packet?

[eerhard09]

Check to make sure you didn't lose the fuel screw. I lost mine and didn't notice it until I slowed down to a stop. It sputtered and died and wouldn't run worth a poo, if at all!

[TINKRD]

Originally posted by eerhard09
Check to make sure you didn't lose the fuel screw. I lost mine and didn't notice it until I slowed down to a stop. It sputtered and died and wouldn't run worth a poo, if at all!

fuel screw as in the one on the bottom of the carb? i'll check that when i get home.

[eerhard09]

Originally posted by TINKRD
fuel screw as in the one on the bottom of the carb? i'll check that when i get home.

Yep, the air/fuel screw on the bottom of the carb, the one you can't get to very well.....

[sheriff525]

I had an after market air screw. It fell out on me but not completely because it was too long. It sputtered and burped and farted until i figured out what was wrong. Make sure if you do get an after market screw you get a good one. And install it correctly.

I can change mine on the fly. It helps when climbing mountains.

[TINKRD]

well apparently she was just PMS'ing b/c i came home and she fired right up.:confused:

went and rode for about 20 mins and all was fine. dunno what the problem was....

[eerhard09]

Maybe you had a little dirt or something in the carb that came loose while it sat....

[TINKRD]

Originally posted by eerhard09
Maybe you had a little dirt or something in the carb that came loose while it sat....

could have very well been. the gas that was in it was a mixture of fresh 93oct and some 2 year old 104oct. lol

i had some 104 sitting in a tank for 2 years before i finally took it out. tested it in my lawn mower and it ran like a champ so i mixed it w/ some 93 and put it in the Quad.

could have been some contaniments (sp)in it. also called the dealer to cancel the 13T sprocket and they said i couldnt b/c it was a "special order item" :rolleyes: i'm going to go in this week and pick it up and tell them i ordered a 15t sprocket and see if i can get somewhere with that :)