Fourplay VS FASST Bars

[quad59]

Just checking opinions of the masses of the recent devlopments between FASST bars and Atv Fourplays new soft bars.
My personal take on it is four plays products are different and appear to be a new technology with there dampning system ( its not a rubber bushing). I think that Fasst is angry becasue there niche market got bested by a new design and something that will be better and last longer than a rubber bushing. Does renthal, protaper,and all the other regular bar companys nit pick because they look similar?? The product evolved and Fasst is angry because they finally have some one to compete with.

[Pappy]

With patent infringements, they (ATVFourPlay) will have to argue in court that their design is so different as to not infringe on FASST's design. It isnt a simple issue of a slight change as far as the patent applies, its the overall design and function, and with multible patents already recieved, this will be a hard case to fight against.

This is actually big money stuff, fighting against a patent issue gets costly quick!

http://www.atvriders.com/atvnews/fasstco2008-soft-bar-handle-bar-patent-atv.html

[quad59]

I guess its up to the courts but my point of view is there is a big difference in design. Granted the bars are going to pivot at or arond the same point. The big difference is in the dampning system which is where the technology is. Just my opinion but if it has to go to court who would know what would happen.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by quad59
The big difference is in the dampning system which is where the technology is.

Lets look at the simple definition of patent infringment, and btw, I dont have a stake in the issue, just pointing out the obvious.

patent infringement n. the manufacture and/or use of an invention or improvement for which someone else owns a patent issued by the government, without obtaining permission of the owner of the patent by contract, license or waiver. The infringing party will be liable to the owner of the patent for all profits made from the use of the invention, as well as any harm which can be shown by the inventor, whether the infringement was intentional or not.

[coryatver]

I hope atv four play can make them hopefully at a much better price than the price gouging fasst bars. Competition is good for us riders. It looks like the design is totally different than the flex bars. They obviously are both bars that flex but looking at the designs they are totally different. But I would be mad if i was flexx too they were banking on having the only bars that flex and for 330 bucks they have to be raking in the dough

[quad59]

It will be interesting to say the least.. for the record I dont have a stake in this either. I will say that I live about 20 minutes from Fourplay. I used there products for the last 2 years and like them alot and Tom is a great guy. I also used Flexx bars on our quads and like the product. I just wanted something to talk about because I have a very boring job and wanted to hear other opinions. We dont even own a quad anymore just a couple of parts for sale. I will say that I get really excited to see new and improved products coming out all the time. I will eventually have the kids racing just need some a year or two to reset the savings account.

[Sandsjbyz22]

Does that mean when the "FAT" bar came out Renthal had to be licensed under Protaper to build a competing bar or vice versa? Im interested to see how this plays out with the interperation of the patent laws...more importantly what part of the flexx bar itself was patented or if they aquired a patent that encompassed the enitire handlebar.

[54warrior]

Interesting. Same Idea, Two different ways of going about it.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Sandsjbyz22
Does that mean when the "FAT" bar came out Renthal had to be licensed under Protaper to build a competing bar or vice versa? Im interested to see how this plays out with the interperation of the patent laws...more importantly what part of the flexx bar itself was patented or if they aquired a patent that encompassed the enitire handlebar.

The only thing I can find on the question about the standard/fat bar design, is that the companies are using differing metalurgy and tube thickness to intermingle designs and apply for patents as they change.

I did find this in the Flexxbar patent...

"Although the present invention has been described in the context of a preferred embodiment, it is not intended to limit the invention to the provided example. Modifications to the above-described handlebar assembly apparent to one of skill in the art are considered to be part of the present invention. Accordingly, the invention should be defined solely by the appended claims."

I read this as any modification to the design is also protected by the patent seeing the premis is the same in design. This, as I read it, would require permission from the patent holder for anyone wanting to employ a change to the product. In lay mans terms, it appears they acknowldged that future enhancements/imrpovements could be assigned to the design but hold all rights to the invention itself.

[Sandsjbyz22]

I wonder if this is comparable to Honda's patent on the bearing carrier design and chain adjustment that when it expired the other manufactures then began to replicate?

[54warrior]

Originally posted by Sandsjbyz22
I wonder if this is comparable to Honda's patent on the bearing carrier design and chain adjustment that when it expired the other manufactures then began to replicate?

and front brake line routing on the mx bikes too

[Pappy]

Could be....although I can not locate a date on which the fasst bars patent would end, only a begining date from which the patent was granted. Most of these types of items have short (relative to other things that are patented) period. 2005 is the oldest date I can find on anything relating to the Fasst patent. Honda came out with the round carrier in what, 1982-83? And it wasnt until 2006 I think that its time period was defunct. 20 years is nothing in the big picture I reckon.

[MXQuadRacer21]

ATV Four-Play Soft Bars, Suggested Retail is $281.25

[54warrior]

Originally posted by Pappy
Could be....although I can not locate a date on which the fasst bars patent would end, only a begining date from which the patent was granted. Most of these types of items have short (relative to other things that are patented) period. 2005 is the oldest date I can find on anything relating to the Fasst patent. Honda came out with the round carrier in what, 1982-83? And it wasnt until 2006 I think that its time period was defunct. 20 years is nothing in the big picture I reckon.

I believe that patents are granted for a 17 year period. The Cannondale machines had a similar eccentric carrier/chain adjustment procedures in 2001.

So lets say Honda came out w/ that in 83 plus 17 years = 2000.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by 54warrior
I believe that patents are granted for a 17 year period. The Cannondale machines had a similar eccentric carrier/chain adjustment procedures in 2001.

So lets say Honda came out w/ that in 83 plus 17 years = 2000.

It would be odd that they would utilize an odd year. I would suspect with regard to Cannondale that the honda patent may have had issues when faced with an American built machine as patents differ when we get other countries involved. The other Japanese companies would be bound by patent in Japan even though doing business in this country

[Sandsjbyz22]

Unfortunately in this business we often see blatent copying of another companies product (example a-arms and swing arms). But when a company is able to take the engineering to another level of a product it forces companies like fasst to step up with further innovation which leads to better products for the consumer. Ultimately whether or not this is patent infringment is not up to us to decide.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Sandsjbyz22
Unfortunately in this business we often see blatent copying of another companies product (example a-arms and swing arms).

Very true, but very few of those products are actually patented. many claim "patent pending" but never do anything beyond that. Houser has patented its slicast system and I believe its Tric -Trac...however the techonolgy for this was born in sprint car racing i believe.

[bwamos]

Looked at the bars. Read the patent.

There is no way that that is not a patent infringment.

Myself doing some R&D Design/Engineering where I work, I'd be rightfully pissed, myself. Nothing against ATV Fourplay but that is blatant copyright infringment. I don't see them avoiding at least some kind of settlement.

They jsut took a flexx bar and replaced the damper with a piston damper. Every other aspect of the bar is damn near identical.

If you would ahve seen this picture a month ago what would you have thought it was?

[Sandsjbyz22]

Here is a link to atvfourplay's response to FASST.

http://atvfourplay.com/New%20Products/ATV%204%20Play%20Soft%20Bars/FASST%20Response.pdf

[Pappy]

I fully expect proceedings to start as Fasst moves forward. It will be the burden of Four Play to prove to the patent office that their product doesnt infringe on the Fasst product.

I hope Four Play has deep pockets....defending is always more expensive and consulting a patent attorney doesnt equate to approval by the patent office. Sounds to me like someone has stepped in it:p

[ALAMX37]

I honestly can't believe they are even going to fight this. They took the exact some bar, repositioned and altered the dampener and call it a different name. Who ever they consulted must not be very bright.

[fast426]

I am in a law class right now. A patent is good for 20 years after it is applied for. They are also extremely expensive and time consuming just to get one. I think it looks like infringement to me.

[jcv400ex]

I have to agree with them. If they where to spend this type of money on a new product launch....you'd think they would have done their homework. :ermm:

It all depends upon if the patent is for the concept and design or the actual components. If FAAST left loopholes in their patent for someone to be able to do this, then shame on them....next time they'll learn.

If I was Fasst, I'd let them try to compete....if you have the more competent design, then people will pay for it.

[NJ450rider]

Atv fourplay is gonna loose badly in court on this one. They should just scrap the idea. as great as competition is it wont be worth the headache in court.

[85and93]

any updates on this?

[Fred55]

Originally posted by 85and93
any updates on this?

yeah, both are still way overpriced...

[Jake250ex]

Originally posted by Fred55
yeah, both are still way overpriced...

bahahah NICE :D

Originally posted by Fred55
yeah, both are still way overpriced...

lol yeah they are. competition would be great so the price tag can go down. people say they are worth the cash but $300 is still so much to pay for bars

[250Renvy]

If I were Fasst, I'd allow them to sell them under a profit sharing condition.

Copyright and intellectual property law is pretty complex, as far as I know it's all in the wording.

I'd like to see some competition or something that advances the design and as much as it sucks to come up with a brilliant idea then have someone steal it, it's worse for everyone if they aren't allowed to advance it. I mean if nobody in the next 20 years is allowed to make a shock absorbing bar, Fasst would never have to modify their design and make improvements, much like Honda does with their quads.

The reason we have most of the technology we have today is because Americans invented stuff and the Japanese made it better.

[quad59]

Anybody have any news on this or is it a stalemate. I really dont see my riding buds anymore after we parted the race bike, but I am curious how this played out.

[Brauap]

Anyone have any more pictures of the bar? I am extremly courious on the looks but the tiny scetch posted didn't really help.. :ermm:

[motofreak2772]

just go to their site and check it out

[Brauap]

Yea, I'd like the fact they use pistons and hydrolics alot more than rubber cusions.. But they need to have a bar pad...

Also, its cheaper than a Flexx! :eek2:

[NED441SUZ]

If you have arm pump problems and/or previously broken wrists, the Fasst Flex bars are the best thing you can get for your quad. You will unbolt them and roll a new quad under them when the time comes. The set i have has been on 3 different quads since 2005.

[deathman53]

I have a set on my atc250r, mx on a trike w/ old technology forks beats up your wrists. Plus, I've had 4 sprained wrists, I one really bad sprain(maybe I broke it?). I bought the flex bars to make it easier on my wrists when jumping the trike. Also put a set on my 200exc, that 2 stroke vibration(w/o counterbalancer) can get to you at times. If I could afford, my trx/crf450r hybrid, trx250r and maybe 450exc would get them, also. As others said, $300 is alot for bars and with 5-6 cr double high tag/pro-taper bars, its kinda hard to pay it out, unless its needed bad enough. Going between my bikes with flexxbars and w/o it is very noticable.