LT a arms..more???? jnine??

[forum]

Ok now im in a delama here. I was going to go with housers. now i figure out they use automotive tie rod ends. and thats not just from this site. Then i figured, hey arens new a arms look good sound good and are priced right. but now A canadian company (RP) is realeising they're long travel system within a few months. I would like to stick canadian if i can, ALso i have a RP swingarm. Im going to try and get a semi sponsership from SPlash"n"dirt wich is RP distributer. But here is my real question here. What is the degree of movement on herrmans, and arens joints?? What type of motion does Arens LT system have??? i want to understand LT as much as i can. Right now im decieding on arens or Rp, im just waiting till they come out for to finalize it. SOrry for the long boring intro

[Foxrage]

Hey I dont know much about arens a-arms i was just wondering if you had any pics or info on those rp products? Thanks

[forum]

sorry i wish i did have some pics. I will deffinately get some come christmas time. If you want some info you can call splash"n"dirt at

514 493-6988

Im not sure if RP has a Website either. But one thing i know forsure is that Richard Pelchat is the creater of this company and hes number one in canada so He knows his stuff. I will get some more info and post it thats forsure!

[Dave400ex]

There is a very high number of companies making LT arms now. They are all basically the same design too. I like the bend in them myself, but the Arens look very nice. Some info on this RP would be great.

[forum]

yes i know there are many companies with LT but they are mostly using automotive tie rod ends! The only one i can think of that i would get are. Arens, Hermaan, Leager protrax and these new RP's. Houser,Lsr, Merrel all use standard automotive ball joints. Yea they work fine but The range of motion is limited

[Bean]

merrell uses a top HEIM thingy with the kingpin inside that ball in the HEIM, and bottom is i belive another HEIM like the top

[forum]

yes. alot of companies use hiems to . sorry, they arnt much better then ball joints.

[THE QUAD GOD]

Do you guys know the diff. between what you call a long travel front end and a std aftermarket front end.

yep..when it all boils down i think hiem's are about equal..maybe a little better than ball joints. theres really no way to stray from binding..unless you have alotta money

Originally posted by THE QUAD GOD
Do you guys know the diff. between what you call a long travel front end and a std aftermarket front end. i dunno who you are but in the few posts you have had your getting pretty cocky. maybe you had better back off if you want to be welcome here. i can't say it for all member but there are a select few that know alot more than you would think.

[THE QUAD GOD]

Dont test me, I am just trying to help answer a question that a lot of people get mixed up on having to do with long travel shocks.
Sorry, I didnt mean for you to take it the wrong way, but I have been around the industry for some time and I would like to think that I know a thing or two.

never said you didn't know anything. but since you are the QUAD GOD why don't you explain it then all holy one.

well all know that the L/T a-arms don't really offer a whole lot of travel over the stn. travel front end. causes of restricted travel from ball joints,hiem ends, and tie rods. even john arens (a member of this site) has claimed laegers is the only company to produce a bind free front suspension that can be considered long travel.

So if i am wrong please correct me messiah of quads..i'll pray to you tonight holy god for metal.

[THE QUAD GOD]

That is true about Laeger
There truly is no dif between long travel and std, except one requires a longer shock and will probably function with a diff. motion ratio, but the wheel travels are all the same or similar.
A Laeger on a narrow frame is capable of 16", but you could never use it all , because you would either break something or you would fall off the bike when you landed off a jump because the bump steer and the tire scrub would be so intense.

[THE QUAD GOD]

Oh, I have seen the new LSR spindle front end and it looks really nice, all I know is that they are still testing it and have had some good results. So if you can find a pic you should check them out.

well i am not sure of the travel of a similar front end to what i'll be running. but with the pep L/T shock and the herrmann +3 L/T a-arms i was told i should get between 12 and 13 in, of travel is what i was told. if i do great..if i don't it will still rock over stock suspension.

[THE QUAD GOD]

You can ask any shock builder esp pep, and they will agree, that it is impossible to make an atv at 50" wide perform well with much over 11" of wheel travel, any more than that is a waste and could poss. hurt the perf. of your ride.

[forum]

Well yea. Any gained travel at the bigining of the stroke would cause body roll to a point. but having extra travel at the end of the stroke ware bottoming occuurs would help!. But that ware shock companys have to realy get good at progressive valving. Im sure some people will disagree but its hard to say what i mean.

[Dan Fisher]

The plus of long travel is the larger shock. You don't have any more travel with either style of a-arm. With long travel a-arms you can run different spings and large body shocks that are fully adj. Different spings take stress off the bike improving its life and handling. The Large body shock will run cooler witch is a plus but only a problem for few. Plus the 19" shock just looks better to the eye!

[MOUSE]

are lt arms really worth the money? i was leaning toward the roll desighns but the started thinking laegar, now im wondering if its worth it at all. with so many out there its hard to figure wich one you want. i just want to handle better on the track be able to run a little faster around the track. so someone tell me is lt worth the money, and are laergers a good choice or stick with roll d. thanks

[forum]

leagers protrax is the best by far. but will cost you $2100 without shocks

[Mxbubs]

I think the other newer designs give you almost as much as the pro trax without that high sticker price. I dont think they are worth 2100$ anymore with all the good options out there now. Dont get me wrong, I like them, I just think you can do as just as much with a much cheaper option.

[forum]

i guess when i said by farr, well. i really didn't mean far better. I just ment they are better cause they are the only true bindless system. LSR's outlaw system is almost the exact same.

[Extremeracer167]

yeah but the turning radius on a Pro traxx is very wide. I know racing through the woods, i want to be able to miss a tree, not run right into it because "i have a bindless front end that cost me $2100"

[Dave400ex]

Yes I think the LT arms are very much worth it. They must be or not everybody would be running them. I just like how the arms bend like they do. If I had the money I would have a LT front end.....

[SmokinJoe@PJR]

HEY EXTREME WHAT ABOUT ME in your sponsor gallery???

[Extremeracer167]

haha my bad:D

[THE QUAD GOD]

Hey forum,

I agree with you, but, you can only have so much up travel before the frame hits the dirt.

[forum]

well obviosly. But thats ware the extended degree of motion helps.

[bongwater200]

Originally posted by THE QUAD GOD
Hey forum,

I agree with you, but, you can only have so much up travel before the frame hits the dirt.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!

And if you try to gain all of your travel on top, you have ride height problems.

People would probably be better off to pay more for a proven good "zero preload" style shock than to worry about all this hish-hosh to begin with!

[forum]

and yet i again. I will say.. No shiznit!

good thread guys.

It seems just as I am beginning to think I am getting a handle on this suspension stuff you guys go and make me wonder if I am needing some more education :)

I was understanding that there were 2 basic types of LT front set ups. One being std geometry with heim joints top and bottom and 16" shocks supposedly allowing more movement from the heim joint over the normal ball joint.

The other being the arms that are either bent or have a lower shock mount location to allow for the longer shock.

I had thought that the second design with the 19" shock was better not so much from the inch or so more travel but more from the longer shock stroke and additional springs or spring length. and that this allowed you to operate more in the "sweet spot" of the piston stroke and allow a plusher ride.

The above thinking was why I had gone with the lt in the first place since I was tired of getting beat up hitting smaller stuff like whoops at speed.

Now as far as the heim joints v/s ball joints etc I am not sure what your all trying to say.

I have the set up pictured below and could you let me know which joint your thinking is weak?

another view

Just an FYI

The down travel of the arm is stopped by the shock not the arm itself. So if the shock had a longer stroke the front end would drop more.

[Dave400ex]

I agree with 440EX4me. It's not so much the a-arm or type of joint it is using, but more the longer 19" shock that really makes the difference. Those High and Low speed Compression adjust Elka's would be sweet to have in LT.

[forum]

the elites!:D thats what im getting. Im waiting for them to be finished. Elka is redesigning them. THey are only a few hundred more for the set. And with my sponsership discount ITs still cheaper then standard travel none elites. :D gotta love that:blah

[LSR]

Ball Joints vs. Heim Joints.

They both have there pluses. We choose to stay with the ball joints for two simple reasons . One the ball joints are greased and sealed. Second, if you cut one of our ball joints in half the internals are really similar to construction of a heim joint. They have a full rotating ball and plenty of mis alignment to keep the front end from binding.

As for the Long Travel A-Arms. It is not so much that you are getting more travel. Your arms can only compress so much before your chassis smashes into the dirt. Your biggest advantage is in the shocks. You get better spring rates and more adjustability. Also you use more of the spring ratio instead of the valving so your shock fluid stays cooler and doesn't fade as much through the race.

[Extremeracer167]

well put. I know Mr. Arens knows what hes talking about. But its a fact, you really wont gain much with some special type of ball joint. From goes down too far it will dig like a plow. And i know that my shocks are what keeps the front end from going down any further, not the ball joints.

[forum]

offcourse there is going to be a point where its wasted movement. But ball joints that are used on the standard a arm are not suffecient. (or are they) and if say they are! then why do all the pros run Leagers protrax. If you look at a holeshot picture of the pro's they are all running protrax. There must be a reason. and don't tell my its because of sponsership. cause i don't buy the fact that leagers would sponser basically every top racer.(like major sponsership) With the exeption of a few. gust ect. Im not saying im going to go buy a protraxx system, but earlier in the thread people were bashing them.

[bongwater200]

Originally posted by Extremeracer167
well put. I know Mr. Arens knows what hes talking about. But its a fact, you really wont gain much with some special type of ball joint. From goes down too far it will dig like a plow. And i know that my shocks are what keeps the front end from going down any further, not the ball joints.



The FACT is that there are very few joints out there that have enough range of motion for even standard A-arms. If you have a set that allow your arms to move through the full stroke of the shock, then you are lucky. I know people who had to take the boots off and grind out a small area of the socket to get enough motion for even standard arms and 16" shocks. Heim joints eliminate a lot of problems with limited motion, but they are constantly wearing because there's no protection from dirt and water.

[Extremeracer167]

i dont know about you, BUT my a-arms always moved up and down further w/o the shocks on them, then when they did have shocks on them. My a-arms hung down way lower when the shocks werent on them. And they went up further also. SO to me, thats the whole range of motion that u can possibly use with shocks on the machine

[boogiechile]

lets talk about motion ratio for just a second as it applies here. I keep hearing talk about 16 inches of travel and all that stuff but it just aint happening with a reasonable motion ratio. The motion ratio is a ratio of total wheel travel with the shock in place to the total travel of the shock itself. A lower ratio is better for shock performance with a 2 to 1 ratio being the limit for the absolute best performance. Ratios up to 2.2 to 1 can be used without sacraficing too much shock performance but the shock makers will tell you they do not like to go any higher than that.

Now with that in mind, the most travel you can get from a 19 inch shock and stay at a 2.2 to 1 ratio is 12.375 inches. That is considering that the travel on most 19 in shocks is 5.625 inches ( i know it can vary a little). and at the better 2 to 1 ratio travel would be 11.25 inches.

Standard 16.375 length shocks have a shaft travel of 4.75 inches. With a 2 to1 ratio you get 9.5 inches of travel and with a 2.2 to 1 you get 10.45.

Now it don't matter what you use for a ball joint you can't get more travel without increasing the motion ratio. All you need is enough range of motion from the joints to acheive the travel you get from a decent motion ratio. If you get a arms to move up and down 36 inches you're still only gonna have 12.375 inches of travel when you hook up 19 inch shocks with a motion ratio of 2.2 to 1.

[bongwater200]

Heh heh heh......

Someone has done thier homework!

Remember the good old days of Greg Stuart and his Protrax chassis, complete with flip-back seat? They had several front end setups that had an INSANE amount of travel, but could never get any of them to handle right. They always ended up settling for a smaller amount of wheel travel that handled better and didn't destroy shocks.

This last guy knows what he's talking about!

( he hasn't been drinking the bongwater )

PB

[Jnine]

Hello Guys:

I can clear up some of this ball joint/heim joint travel business.

As we've all seen, many of the aftermarket guys are using automotive ball joints, or an off the shelf heim joint. The problem is most of the automotive ball joints are limited to 46 to 50 degrees of motion, or "angle of misalignement." That gives everyone the same amount of shock stroke at about 5" for a 19" shock. Thats a numerical fact. Heim joints usually don't even come close to that amount of misalignment before they run into trouble. I have not seen a heim joint with much more than 40 degrees of misalignment under even the best situation, but I'm not saying it doesn't exist. THere may be one out there with more movement, but because of the construction and the issue of "poundout" they will probably never get to the numbers of the ball joint. Another company (Splash-N-Dirt) is set to make an A-arm with a ball joint with around 50 degrees of travel, and thats about as good as you can do with an off the shelf product.

Some riders had asked about the ball joint we are going to use. We decided to bite the bullett and make our own ball joint. Our ball joint has a usuable angle of misalignment of 58 degrees. For a 19" long travel shock that gives us a shock stroke range of 6", or about an inch more than any other ball joints at the shock, and a **** of a lot more at the wheel. These are the actual dimensions off of the current design. There may be one catch however.... the tie rod ends.... We'll have to take them into account as well, and we may have to be a little creative in that respect. We'll get it though...... Andre and I are gong to work on it tomorrow.

I hope that answers the questions you guys asked....

JA

[Guy400]

John, if you've got time to talk on the board you've got time to get those Dale a-arms finished:D Just kiddin', take your time and make them right (as I'm sure we're all confident you will). I'm first in line and want the first set of Arens' Bros. Cannondale a-arms:D

[Juggalo]

wow john everytime you post you come closer to changing my mind on what long travel front end i will get. i'm thinkin i want yours for sure now (even tho it doesn't have the trick lookin bend in em that tells other people its long travel- oh well i like the stealth look). when i get my sponsor this season you'll probably be getting a call from me.

[Dave400ex]

Man it sure is nice to have Dan from LSR and John Arens on here. They can clear everything up.
It seems that a lot of Pro's are starting to run Walsh and Roll over the T-Pin. I know Gust rated Walsh #1, Roll #2, and the T-Pin #3.
John what setup does Walsh and Roll use?

[boogiechile]

now I am not one that likes to argue and I especially don't want to argue with John Arens. But I do want to get some facts out. First off I build my own a arms and swing arms and modify my frame to change the geometry. I have made my share of mistakes and learned a lot in the process. I have been using the automotive type ball joints up to this point. Travel is limited with these. With standard length shocks they have enough motion to go past where the shock will stop in each direction with no binding using a shock motion ratio of 1.9 to 1(that is what I set my ratio at). It is close and the angle that the joint mounts in relation to the a arm has to be right to get full travel without bind or bottoming and wasting good useable travel on the up side. I am now working on a set of long travel arms. I bought some heim joints for the project. they are from FK Rod Ends, a popular supplier of heims for race cars. they are off the shelf 3/4 inch heims.

Now I just went down to the shop and measured both an auto type joint and the heims. The auto joint will bend to the point to reach a 60 deg angle. That is 30 deg from center in each direction for a total of 60 degrees of movement. The 3/4 heim with a jansen racing king pin in it will form a tighter 52 deg angle for 8 more degrees of movement in each direction. it will move a total of 76 deg which is 16 degrees more total motion than the auto style joint.

All of the movement can not be used because if you build the setup right out to the bind point hard hits can cause enough flex for the ball joint to move further and bind and maybe break. So a few degrees would have to be subtracted from the movements measured to be usefull movement. I have ran the arms set up to just reach the bind point on the down travel with no problems since there is no great force there. that gives the most possible excess movement after the shock bottoms on the up travel.

The main point is that it is the motion ratio used and not the ball joint movement that determines the wheel travel, unless the ball joint is limited to less then the motion ratio chosen will give. Which can happen such as when 19 inch shocks are used at a high motion ratio with most auto style joints. 19 inch shocks can be set up with regular extended a arms using auto ball joints to a lower motion ratio that will reach the limits of the shock travel before ball joints bind. The lower motion ratio will allow better performance from the shock and the long shock just performs better anyway. Overall wheel travel can not be significantly increased however.

[Wired]

whoa, this thread is blowing my mind..... i'll just buy the products and hope they work hahaa :eek:

currently there are at least two very good LT threads (including this one) with some excelent info.

keep it coming.

Lets not forget the rear shock, my front 19" LT set up is so far above and beyond the rear its just not right.

[Jnine]

Some of these are getting really complicated, even to the point of getting me confused. I might have to sketch that last one.....

Anyway, the person who posted it does make one good point.... Just measuring the angles on a ball joint DOES NOT tell the entire story.... The design limits for a ball joint are not at the very edge of the travel. What you really need is the engineering data on whatever joint you are considering... Just measuring it and hoping for the best can get you in trouble... You would not BELIEVE the incredible loads on the front end of an ATV. The forces are a **** of a lot more than simply adding the combined weights X a safety factor. If you can get the engineering data that would be best. Actually some of the car joints tested softer than some grades of aluminum, and in testing others were found to stretch.

Nice job though anyway on this and on your A-Arms. I always like to see somebody put thought into what they are doing.

JA

[Mxbubs]

King pin? Correct me if Im wrong, but way back in the days of the creation of 4 wheel golf carts is where the King pin came about, and it is nothing like the so called king pin setup we are using today. If you guys can get a look, I suggest you do. The pro trax system is resembles the true king pin setup more than anything. The setup I am using, the Herrmanns, like the Gibson, and the Walsh's, are not like the original king pin. I think these types of front ends have been called that for the sake of convenience and marketing. I think we should think of a new name, any suggestions?

Also about the heim joints, why are they called heims? Is that a company? The are actually male studded and female threaded rod ends. ROD ENDS. I know this. I had a 3 inch rod end holding a 32,000lb roll of paper break the other day at work and nearly killed me. Luckily I was standing off to the side when it broke, I had to go home and freshen up after that.

I purchased a set of female threaded FK rod ends from FKrodends.com and used them on my tie rods. I had to make spacers to go between the spindles and the actual "rod eye" to get them up off the the spindle to get good free movement. They work great. I take my shocks off and my arms will move freely without any bind or hesitation what so ever from lower of the bottom eye of the shock fully extended, all the way up past the level of the bottom of the frame. A complete full range of motion without binding. What more could you ask for in bindless motion, except taking out any bump steer?

[boogiechile]

The point i was making about the joints is that the heim has considerably more movement then the auto style joint. also many of the auto joints have a plastic or nylon cup in between the housing and the ball. Large forces and binding can squish the plastic and loosen the joint or cause failure. I feel that the heims and spherical bearings are superior to the automotve joints. The problem of course is that they are not sealed. I think houser has done a good job on his LTs by making a seal for the lower spherical bearing. there is a good reason that most LT arms use heim or sperical bearings. I have had great success with the a arms I have built and have found that staying away from the bind point on jounce as far as possible is the way to go. Just barely reaching the bind point on full rebound has caused no problems.

John, I do appreciate your participation here and hope you continue. We can all learn a lot from you. But I felt like your specs for the ball joint verse heim joint was off a little and that is why I went and measured it.

[Evan]

Like someone else said, what good does it do you if your a-arms move beyond the range of motion of your shock. In other words so what if your a-arm moves more than mine with the shock off, your shock is the same length as mine right, unless u have LT. Also are the joints "heim" joints or whatever they are called, are they not made out of aluminum? Aluminum wears pretty fast and then they seem loose.

Also about the heim joints, why are they called heims? Is that a company? The are actually male studded and female threaded rod ends. ROD ENDS. I know this. I had a 3 inch rod end holding a 32,000lb roll of paper break the other day at work and nearly killed me. Luckily I was standing off to the side when it broke, I had to go home and freshen up after that.

You are correct on the rod ends. Heim is a older larger manufacturer of quality spherical bushings and rod ends. There are sevreal other companies that make them also like Aurora, FK, National, NMB and each had its own little niches in the business.

All the above names also has a good quality product and most all offer diff choices in the bushing design. The main ones are steel lined, PTFE and bronze or brass as well as some others.

The PTFE is a good choice due to its excelent sef lubricating properties while the steel on steel is one of the stronger ones.

BTW be carefull in that mill I have seen many people get badly hurt and worse not to mention the ones walking around missing pieces etc. Just curious but who's rod end broke on you?


I purchased a set of female threaded FK rod ends from FKrodends.com and used them on my tie rods. I had to make spacers to go between the spindles and the actual "rod eye" to get them up off the the spindle to get good free movement. They work great. Good idea and I bet a lot less than Honda's price. Was the OEM one just longer thru the bore and thats why you needed the spacers?

[Mxbubs]

Actually it was larger, I had to make 2 spacers. They are 1/2 threaded tie rod ends. So the rod end itself was 1/2" and the rod eye was 1/2". The honda spindles calls for a 10mm bolt. I had to make a bushing to fit inside the rod eye, 1/2" od by 10.5mm id. That way I could us the 10mm bolt, I also made a space about 1/2" to get the actual rod eye up off the spindle to get free motion.

Will you guys check on the golf cart/king pin setup for me? I think that is a true king pin set up, pretty sure.

What we are using is a drop thru bolt/spherical race bearing setup in the herrmanns, walsh, and gibsons.

Anyone think of a new term to coin?

[Mxbubs]

Here they are.

[John Houser]

HOUSER RACING uses the term Long Travel to refer to the angle of rotation allowed by the ball joint. Here's the scope:
Regular tie rod end ball joints have about 24 degrees of allowable rotation in each direction, 50 degrees total. Our Long Travel ball joint has 35 degrees, which is 70 degrees total. Stock A-Arms typically have About 9" of wheel travel. After market A-ARMS with tie rod end type of ball joints have 10+ inches. Some shock companies will design longer stroke shocks, which gives more wheel travel. If they go too far, they will bottom out the upper ball joint under full compression. Guys will break ball joints and complain about the company when it was really due to over travel of the ball joints due to the initial setup & shocks used. Our Long Travel A-Arms allow for more wheel travel than you want. Atfer lots & lots of testing, for MX racing 11.5" to 12" of wheel travels is what gives you the fastest lap times! As the wheels drop, they move closer to the center of the bike. This doesn't mean much on jumps, but it means alot on corners. Guys that ride our products will tell you that they corner better. That just didn't happen, it's in the design & shocks used. When thinking of wheel travel, there is a limit, bigger is not always better.
PS if you fertilize your yard & it calls for 50LB, if you use 100 lb IS IT BETTER?

I was wondering something,.. is there a way to seal a heim end ..like a boot ?..or something?

[bongwater200]

The problem with the automotive "ball joints" ( which are actually tie rod ends ) is that NONE of them are manufactured the same. One particular manufacturer's joint will have more than enough movement, and someone else's will look identical but have not enough. ****..... in most cases, they're all built by the same manufacturers ( TRW, MOOG, etc ) but to different specs. You have to remember..... these parts were built as TIE ROD ENDS. Have you ever seen a car with 12" of wheel travel??? They only need maybe 20 degrees or so of movement to do their job on a car, so they ARE plenty good for their intended job.

The heim-type rod ends usually end up having more motion, but they wear out because there's no GOOD way to keep dirt out. I've seen people actually dip them in that "tool dip" stuff before to try to make them last longer!

The point is that if we really, truly need more motion out of these things, we're going to have to have them made from scratch, specifically for our application. There's just NO way to consistantly get joints that have the range of motion that we need. Just when you think you've found a set that works fine, that mfr. will change the specs on it, and we're back to square one!

PB

[Extremeracer167]

my new houser LTs come with a rubber boot over the upper joint. its pretty trick!:D

[Extremeracer167]

BTW, just wanted to let everyone know that......while all these guys know what they are talking about.........im lost:confused: HAHA. Its all just a bunch of rambling to me. Oh well, maybe ill pick up on it one day:D

[400exBro]

ya i was thinking the same thing!!!! i kind of get it but it is all blah to me...

so does the mean that we shouldn't buy long travel a arms and shock??? are you just wasting money and hurting the machine when you do this???

i race and ride mx and thought that the LT set up would work awsome but now i am not to sure??

o well i will do what jon is doing, just buy a set and hope it works, perferbly arens becuase they are the cheapist set of LT a arms out there.

lata

Bro

[Jnine]

What the **** does lap times have to do with ball joints, teflon liners, motion ratios or anything else? We can't go from hard design numbers to something so subject to riders ability as lap times! This isn't INDY cars or F1. These guys ride on dirt, and the surface is much less controlled, and the rider is constantly shifting his body and changing everything from hookup on an uneven and widely changing surface to center of gravity of the entire vehicle. A few seconds of lap times means absolutely nothing in this discussion. Heres one for you.... In you later tests more fuel was used from the tank, thus making the vehicle lighter, which gave the rider better feel in the air, a better power to weight ratio, lowered the center of gravity, and the rider could then hit the corners harder, and thanks be to Jesus...... HE had a better lap time!!!! That's as good an explanation for a change in lap times as anything else on an ATV.......

[Extremeracer167]

:huh whoa

[400exBro]

i think i sense some competion in here:eek:

Bro

[Jnine]

The point is guys, buy whatever you are comfortable with. Thats the main thing, and the second is I don't want this to simply turn into a a bunch of ads. Thats why I didn't use my name when I first started to visit this site, and although quite a few of you know who I am now, I hope some of the new guys do not. I'm not on here to sell anything. To me it's just a place for a bunch of riding buddies to hang out and talk about having fun. If somebady asks a few questions I probably have the ability to answer them because every day it is my job to know those answers, and what works & what doesn't. Thats the same reason we get hired by the factories to do work for them, only you guys get it for free. If you like my stuff and are interested, that's fine, and if you like something better that's OK with me also. I really don't think any of us want to see this turn into a bunch of ads however. In fact, when riders have asked more specific questions about about OUR parts, I have PMed them back because I didn't feel this was the proper place for that kind of info, and I still do that. To me, anything else was unprofessional, and I'm not going to go down that trail.

You know what however, talking about the INDY & F1 stuff has given me an idea that would REALLY work for us, but only the factories could do it for now. I'll give the head engineering guy a call. See how discussions with you guys can turn into something else? To me that's cool!

Talk to you later.

JA

Play nice now boys :)

I understand how there must be a point where additional travel may screw up things but all I was wanting to achieve was to stop getting pounded all the time and get my quad to be more plush like a two wheeler. So I have found these lt fronts very helpfull in hitting everything from whoops to corners at a much higher speed.

Is that relative to faster lap times?

[400exBro]

440EX4me- Yes you have a really good point!!

if you are able to get a better smoother ride without having to bounce all over the place causing you to slow down you can achieve faster lap times. that is why shocks are the most important factor in MX and XC racing,
When i bought my work shocks i was able to go faster around the track then with the stockers becuase you are able to take woop a gear higher and corner a lot better, you get a over all better ride.
Now i am selling my works to get some Elka long travel up front with Arens LT set up, this give me a much better ride resulting in better lap times...

Am i correct, if not someone correct me?

Bro

[Jnine]

I agree. Shocks are probably the most important thing you can upgrade on your quad for going faster. I've seen lots of riders get all kinds of motor stuff, but they still couldn't get the power to the ground because they were bouncing all over, and the extra power just made it worse. The other added benefit of great shocks is that it helps your other parts last longer also.

JA

[tants]

jnine could i order arens aarms directly from you?
check your pm
thanks

[Dave400ex]

Well we all know the LT arms and Shocks are better then Standard, so just buy whatever brand of stuff you want. I think John has done his research more then anybody on here and knows what he is talking about. I want to see pictures of that other guys a-arms.

[forum]

do you mean the RP's?? i will try to get some pics.

[THE QUAD GOD]

Thats right, more is not always better.

I know just about every top pro rider there is, and I know of a few, that run Laeger, Lsr, and roll, and their mx bikes do not exceed 10 1/4 to 10 5/8 in. of wheel travel.

[Marty@TheQuadshop]

Here's a pic of my Raptor with +1 Houser Long Travel A-arms
It has over 12" of vertical travel.The ball joints and tie rods work perfectly without any complication.

[Marty@TheQuadshop]

The shock have more stroke tham normal Long travl a-arms.
I custom made the shocks for XC racing with use of 22" or 23"
tires I still have 3" of ground clearance.How ever i would not use this set up for MX.With use of 19"or20" tires the fram would hit the ground.Thats why the Long travel shocks are limited to the
amount of travel they can have.

[Marty@TheQuadshop]

Heres the same set up with +3 a-arms

[Mxbubs]

I love this thread.:D

[forum]

me likey too

[johnny_bravo]

CANUCK#161 and other Canadians (USA too)

Check out HSD Racing's Symmetry long travel and Strong Arm a-arms.

Both Symmetry and Strong Arm are built in Canada.

Symmetry Banshee (http://www.anzwers.org/trade/hsdracing/longtravel/blue_banshee_symmetry2.jpg)

250R Symmetry (http://www.anzwers.org/trade/hsdracing/main/John_Chandler_Superman2.jpg)

HSD Racing (http://www.hsdracing.com)

JB

[Juggalo]

in case you couldn't figure it out johnny bravo is the guy who owns hsd racing. they make the strong arm a-arms as well as IRS kits and lots of other chasis parts.

[johnny_bravo]

Oooooh... mama !!!

[Dave400ex]

Marty the +1 a-arms look like they give a lot more ground clearance then the +3's. That Raptor even looks wide with the +1 arms. How wide is that? I like the ground clearance with the +1's though. That would be perfect for XC.

[Pappy]

well mr bravo:p pitch in yer 2 cents.....we would love to hear it:p

[Sparks425Ex]

Lets see some pics of your a-arms Mr. Bravo.

[johnny_bravo]

NACS425Ex scroll up for pics.

hard to add anything new, it has all been covered already by some very experienced peeps....

points already covered-
1) *****in long shocks do not necesarily increase travel at the wheel- JB agrees.
2) not all ball joints are created equal- JB agrees
3) a proper long travel design will allow for sufficient ground clearance at bottomed.- JB agrees
4) heims offer similiar misalignment as bj's, heims are higher maintanence- JB agrees

perhaps new stuff-
King pin inclination angle is a perfectly acceptable term for an ATV,
it is a line drawn through ball joint centers in the front view. No matter if it is my F350 Dana front end or a Vette they all have a king pin angle.

HSD Symmetry a-arms use Ricky Stator 16mm main shaft ball joints, they have great misalignment angles. Lone Star Racing
uses them also.

RS BJ on the far left (http://www.rickystator.com/media/BallJointcomp.jpg)

The RS joints most closely resemble the OEM Honda joint internaly. Also they have fewer parts to bust.

John A. please, do tell? What does Guy at SplashNDirt have up his sleave? He sells our a-arms?

JB

[Bean]

well, i must say, we are starting to get ALOT of large ATV names in this here site, just back last year, not many of these people were well known on here

[Dave400ex]

They weren't known because I don't think any of them were on here a year ago. Guys were saying how the forums were getting a bunch of old info, these guys have brought it back to life. We just need to get Sparks, TC, or some kind of engine builder on here now.

[Pappy]

cool JB.....hammerdown and stay on the board....i really like the heads of these companies being here. and trust me.....if someone has a beef with you they will let ya know:p

good luck and welcome:)

[Mxbubs]

I bought some parts off of Johnny Bravo a long time ago.....He is good peoples.:D

[Bean]

we hav 4stroke tech, he doesnt post alot, helps with them question deals though

[forum]

hey johnny boy! is your real name mark lescerbo?? cause that who i thought owned HSD. John A, has nothing to do with the french boys from Splash'n'dirt. YOu must have got tangled somewares!. Splash"n"dirt deals RP stuff. RP is made by Richard Pelchat. Im sure you heard of him! #1 in Canuckistan aka canada. Thats the swing arm i bought. great stuff so far. Johny do you make swing arms yet?? i almost bought a pare of your a arms till i found rolls for dirt cheap. I've heard some good things about your stuff. but to come and pretend you some average joe thats love his strong arms. tisk tisk:p :p j/k

[forum]

But seriously HSD has great cutomer sevice. he answers asap with lots of info and help. THis Site is great! just look at all these manufactuerers we have now! this is by farr the best way to make a better product. talk to the people that buy them!

[Jnine]

Hello guys:

Some of this is getting confusing to try and figure out who the questions are directed towards, especially with two guys named John.

One of the readers asked if I was involved with the people at Splash-N-Dirt. Another person said that is not me. The answer is a little of both. Actually I am very familiar with the guys at Splash-N-Dirt, and I talk to GUY DIOTTE there fairly often. In fact, I have some paperwork to fax him next time he calls. I believe GUY is the sole owner there, and he does some great work on getting his team together, as well as running his operation. I have met his rider Richard, who is the Canandian National Champ, (on my 250R frame by the way!) and I think we are going to be chanigng that frame out for him this winter. Guy gets a few other parts from me as well.

Hope that clears stuff up for everyone, at least for now.

[400exBro]

does that mean splash n dirt will be selling you arens long travel a arms.,.,.,,.

i order a lot of parts from there becuase they sell some high quilty stuff, like pep and rpm and stuff like that, plus i don t need to pay duty to get the stuff across the boarder, and shipping etc...

Richard r is a sweet quad, and i loved that frame that is the best work i have seen, it is real high quiltly stuff, can t wait to see your LT set up.

Bro

[forum]

OOOO. oops. sorry i did not no that John arens. I guess the quad guys are all closely related!. Well sorry about that. Yea guy Diote is great to deal with. THey have awsome prices too. its Almost always cheaper then to buy from the USA and thats rare to find. and sometmes I get my stuff in like 3 days! like my RP swingarm. They also have or can get anypart under the sun which also surprissed me. I only deal with splash"N"dirt now.

[Dave400ex]

Got anymore Pictures of the Arens or RP a-arms yet?