That idle screw mount... [Archive]

MtnEX

09-23-2008, 09:02 PM

Well, I had to make the trip to sears just to get something to get at that mounting screw. She don't want to come out.... so I said screw it and tried my tools on getting at the pilot screw.

Good lord!....

I got two different screwdriver bit ratchets... they hold the bit and you have 90 degree working angle.

It's still almost impossible to work the pilot screw.

You can't do it with the engine on like that "how-to" here gives direction to.

I'm at a loss other than trying to tune it a quarter-turn at a time.

How far out is too far out?... Needing a larger pilot?

drew416ex

09-24-2008, 03:37 PM

If you get to 3.5 turns out go to a larger pilot. If you are about 1-1.5 turns out go to a smaller pilot.

MtnEX

09-24-2008, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by drew416ex
If you get to 3.5 turns out go to a larger pilot. If you are about 1-1.5 turns out go to a smaller pilot.

Thanks man... that's a lot of help.

I'm on a stock 38.

I set it on 2.5 turns out before putting the carb back.
It would do the crank... run seconds... then die.
Choke didn't help.

I kept backing it out 1/4 turn from there... got out to 3.5 turns and it didn't seem a lot better. Just I could smell gas in the exhaust fumes.

I turned it back in and then brought it out to 2 turns.
Still evaluating that setting.

I have the feeling I am not right though because I know there is still a lot of difference between my cold idle RPM and my hot idle RPM.

CJM

09-24-2008, 05:01 PM

I am having a similar issue with mine, how does one set the pilot screw while running??? More importantly what is a good all around setting to start with? 2 turns out??

I tried to remove the idle screw bracket, and looks like the previous owner tried it too and its stripped to eternity.

Cause my quad will not idle except on full choke and then its all loopy. If i keep the throttle blipped a bit it will run, but otherwise it dies.

MtnEX

09-25-2008, 03:38 PM

You gotta have a special tool...

A long 90 degree screwdriver / carb tool.

No other way I can find.

CJM

09-25-2008, 05:33 PM

That offset tool I have, problem is i cannot remove the idle bracket b/c some nimrod stripped the screw that holds it on..

I think im gonna go take it apart and see if i can remove the screw and let the idle hang or something and do it, b/c if i can get the bracket off i can set the pilot screw.

So all around setting while cold, try perhaps 2 turns, maybe 2 1/4 turns from all the way in?

CJM

09-25-2008, 07:16 PM

I finally got it to run, idle screw is maybe 1 turn out and pilot screw is about 2 1/4 turns.

It idles kinda high this way, but before it idled really low. Maybe its 1/2 more idle than before...Ill play with it again tomorrow.

CJM

09-27-2008, 03:48 PM

Ok I finally got it to idle properly I think. Idle is low and fuel screw seems to be ok, its about 2 1/4 turns out from snug.

Now, when I ride it backfires when I downshift quickly. I could have an exhaust leak possibly due to the way the muffler is mounted since the strap is SCREWED into the muffler. Or it could be me. It wasnt running long enough properly to know where it should idle and such.

CJM

09-27-2008, 04:57 PM

Also it wont idle on full choke, only half and choke off. It shuts off immediately after starting with full choke. I have been adjusting with the choke off.

Maybe the needle and seat are bad..im starting to give up.

CJM

09-27-2008, 06:55 PM

Anyone??

drew416ex

09-27-2008, 07:09 PM

Is the motor warm when you try to idle it at full choke? It wont run on full choke if the motor is warm. I have never used the choke on mine. When I had the stock carb I removed it, and now I have a fcr which doesnt have a choke. At this very moment, what are you having trouble getting right?

MtnEX

09-27-2008, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by CJM
Ok I finally got it to idle properly I think. Idle is low and fuel screw seems to be ok, its about 2 1/4 turns out from snug.

Now, when I ride it backfires when I downshift quickly. I could have an exhaust leak possibly due to the way the muffler is mounted since the strap is SCREWED into the muffler. Or it could be me. It wasnt running long enough properly to know where it should idle and such.

Originally posted by CJM
Also it wont idle on full choke, only half and choke off. It shuts off immediately after starting with full choke. I have been adjusting with the choke off.

Maybe the needle and seat are bad..im starting to give up.

Don't feel bad... this is obviously a very frustrating adjustment.
I'm not sure it's possible to get right without the proper specialty tool.

Myself, I started out by lightly seating, then going 2.5 turns out. It would crank, but die nearly immediately. I kept backing it out thinking the mixture needed to be richer. I think I got to like 3.5 turns out, and could smell the gas in the exhaust. Still did not fire and stay running.

At this point I started over. I think stock is 1 turn out?... I went 1.5 with my pipe/filter, but it didn't do well. I got out to 2 turns and it did much better.

But then today, the SOB was doing the same thing again. Like to have never got it running and warmed up. I mean it was the worst ever.

To me, it don't make freakin sense... It was RICH before and cranking VERY WELL COLD. But I was getting noise and sometimes it would die at idle when hot. It was I don't know how many turns out.... several.

Anyways, now it is not rich on plug reads, no noise, etc... not flooding to death I guess. But it's annoying to get going from cold... and then the idle speeds way up when hot.

I think what the deal might be is that the idle speed screw and pilot screw have to be tuned together.... in order to get consistant idle and consistant starts.

I can't find a tool to use that will work on a "hot tune" like is suggested in the forum's 'hot-to' section... can't get the "MOUNT" out of the way either.

I am so frustrated, I've thought of seeing if I can loosen the boots and turn the carb sideways some to see if I can get anywhere with that method. I'd be able to get at the adjustments hot... but I fear it won't work right to tune with the carb tilted.

:mad:

CJM

09-27-2008, 08:00 PM

Im,adjusting the pilot/fuel screw.

It was kinda warm, I ran it around for 10 mins then began adjusting. I find its about 2 1/4 turns out and my idle is decent. I kinda cheated, after fighting to remove the idle screw bracket (it was stripped).

I turned the carb on its side a bit lol and used a very long screw driver. I coulda done it with the 90 degree screw driver I have and the one I made but its a PAIN b/c when you turn all the wires and frame and stuff gets in your way. I do wonder if turning the carb has any effect tbh, I havent tilted it back yet.

What does happen is upon downshifting it backfires..could be exhaust but it didnt do this before i began to mess with this stuff.

The choke thing makes me feel better. So thats a non issue now.

I dunno tomorrow I am gonna play with it a bit more, check the plug out and then if I cant get it right I will do:
A: Rebuild the carb with a new needle and seat. Friend of mine said I coulda damaged it by snugging the screw to much.
B: Take it to honda and let them play with it

According to the honda manual (the real one) it says to use a tach. It also says initial setting is 2 1/4 turns out from snug, warm up the engine (says 10 mins ride should be enough), attach the tach, turn idle speed up to 1400rpm +/- 100rpm, then turn the pilot to get the engine to highest idle speed, then hit throttle 2-3x lightly, turn pilot till idle drops about 50rpms, then says final opening 1 turn out, then readjust idle.

Im thinking after doing that (minus tach) that I snugged the pilot screw and ruined the needle and seat. I mean the stock 1 turn out will not work with the duncan full exhaust I got, so that could also be screwing with me. Could be worse, I ran a zuk 230 for 2 years with a messed up idle screw and it idled like crazy high..power was nice but it blew the engine after i fixed it.

MtnEX

09-27-2008, 09:03 PM

Yeah, I have the factory service manual too.
Don't help really since we don't have factory intake/exhaust.

Have you used the "how-to" here in the how-to forum?

I myself think I will try the 2 1/4....
If that don't work, I'm going to tilt the bike after warmup and rotate the carb... where it's level while I'm tuning by instructions found here. Then I'll let the bike down and level the carb back to normal.

I'm starting to think that in the end, you have to tune the idle and pilot together... and you likely have to be RICH on that circuit to get good starts.

You and I may actually need a new float and float valve... possibility I think.

CJM

09-27-2008, 09:10 PM

I used the one on the forums, turn the idle up and play with the screw. Funny thing is mine doesnt seem to drop or miss really when I play with the pilot, it will die if i turn the idle down to much.

I dunno, my idle is smooth imho..not to choppy either and I can rev and be fine. Just on downshift it backfires now. I think I need to rebuild the carb or the needle and seat as I may have crushed them.

Either way I cant ride as my stupid msr pos raptor clutch setup broke. I been manually shifting it around by feel just to see how it rides.

This maybe of some use, I dunno I cant seem to make this work really, perhaps I need to reject due to exhaust:

To re-emphisize: If the idle never drops when you're turning the fuel screw in, you need a smaller pilot jet. If the idle never drops when you're turning the fuel screw out, you need a bigger pilot jet.

MtnEX

09-27-2008, 09:26 PM

I would think you are lean in the pilot circuit because of the backfiring.

I would also think that if you damaged the O-ring it would leak at the screw.
But I could be wrong about that.

What pilot jet do you have?
Mine is a 38.

Back the screw on out just to see if the popping stops.

But level your carb back up and check things over before assuming or adjusting anything.

CJM

09-27-2008, 09:30 PM

I wish I had a clue which pilot I have, I would assume the previous owner didnt change it but I dunno. Before it would idle with no choke very slowly imho..

It only backfires on downshift from high speed, but then again like I said my clutch lever is busted so I cant use it, I just downshifted at the proper speed. When I rev there is no backfire.

Im gonna level the carb back when I get my replacement clutch lever sometime next week.

Good luck and thanks for the help.

MtnEX

09-27-2008, 09:38 PM

Well, if you don't know what pilot you have, it would be beneficial to you to remove the carb and find out. Plus you can make sure there is nothing "in" your pilot jet.

It is very easy and straightforward.
Just follow the factory service manual.
It's under the bottom cover beside the main.

Also, I think you and I are in need of this tool here... if it turns at the handle, rotating the end... like a curved shaft weedeater...

http://www.jcwhitney.com/wcsstore/jcwhitney/images/imagecache/G_14175G_CL_1.jpg

Finally found it at JC Whitney... beats the price of the other style Motion Pro tool.

CJM

09-27-2008, 09:45 PM

Thats awesome, i need to buy one.

MtnEX

09-27-2008, 10:04 PM

I wonder if it works like I'm hoping?

It would be of no use if it doesn't.

drew416ex

09-27-2008, 10:38 PM

When i had a stock carb I used on of the removable bits out of one of those cheap mulit bit screwdrivers. Also I dont know if it will work but you could get a aftermarket mixture screw thats made for the 450s. If its the same threads it should work then you can turn it by hand.

MtnEX

09-27-2008, 10:44 PM

Originally posted by drew416ex
When i had a stock carb I used on of the removable bits out of one of those cheap mulit bit screwdrivers. Also I dont know if it will work but you could get a aftermarket mixture screw thats made for the 450s. If its the same threads it should work then you can turn it by hand.

Well, I have a Craftsman rachet now that I bought for this.
It holds multi bits and works like a regular rachet.
I can squeeze in there and adjust when cold.

But there is no avoiding burns when hot... not without something like the above pictured tool.

CJM

09-27-2008, 11:07 PM

I have the same ratchet, its junk really.

I also have a gear wrench that should work but isnt long enough and its hard to lineup. I havent yet tried (and just thought of it) a ratchet wrench with an adapter I have. Handles longer so it should work.

Im just confused as according to everything I keep reading adjusting the fuel screw should cause rpms to drop/raise and such..imho all i get is less backfire and smoother idle if anything.

I honestly think I made it to snug, would that ruin anything?

This is SO frustrating!

MtnEX

09-27-2008, 11:50 PM

I know... it is VERY FRUSTRATING!!! :mad:

I'm sooo ticked off with it right now that you just don't know.

I also think I'm a little more frustrated knowing that there are likely members here that know exactly what to tell us to help. But I don't know where they are....

I wouldn't think you over-tightened.
I think that would just get the O-ring if anything.
But I would also think it would LEAK FUEL there if you did.

The Pilot I think works on the same idea as the needle.
Back it out and you get more gas... richer.

I think you would be more likely to find an air leak somewhere than a damaged O-ring since you are not getting the results from extreme adjustments that you expected.

You may want to try messing with the pilot at a LOWER idle screw setting. That or an air leak are logical explainations for not getting results on the ends.

CJM

09-27-2008, 11:59 PM

If there is a leak a spray of carb cleaner should make the idle scream.

Turned the idle up, took the screw to 2 turns and played around and it ran ok. Backed the idle off and put screw to 2 1/4 turns and it ran.

I just dont think its running right b/c before (and I assume it was stock) it had a very low idle with choke off, now its a bit higher. I dunno for sure as the neighbors are getting pissed, so I cant play much. Also, it never backfired when downshifting before.

I think ill try to lower the idle slightly and see if it will run good. Might I add the idle adjustment sucks for fine tuning, my zuk 230 responds much better-you turn this one and it seems like it does nothing until you turn a good full turn or so and its tight as heck....stupid design.

drew416ex

09-28-2008, 08:13 AM

If you are doing extreme adjustments with the mixture screw and its not really changing, you may need a different pilot jet. See what size is in there. Get a 42 pilot (hopefully thats not whats in there).

CJM

09-28-2008, 08:36 AM

Well how do I know which jet to even go with? Right now the quad is stock besides a full duncan exhaust and a kn filter afaik.

MtnEX

09-28-2008, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by CJM
Well how do I know which jet to even go with? Right now the quad is stock besides a full duncan exhaust and a kn filter afaik.

Well, if you are not getting a reaction from the pilot screw at a lower idle, and you are stock on the jet, and you are getting popping.... well then you are likely too lean on the pilot for good starting, etc...

So you would go up to a 40 or the ever-popular 42 pilot jet.

Does Duncan have jetting advice on their site?

CJM

09-28-2008, 08:57 AM

Well, I got another problem. I adjusted the idle a bit and got it to idle pretty good, and downshifting doesnt seem to backfire and pop at all really (did it once, remember I have to wait to shift I dont have a clutch lever). Duncan offer nothing on jetting.

Now I have a bigger problem, downshifting/deceleration gives me white smoke. The oil is fresh and I went with the recommendation of 15W-50 Mobil 1 full syn..

This is becoming a nightmare.

MtnEX

09-28-2008, 09:57 AM

Well hell...

I moved my screw 1/4 a turn to 2.25 out and put back the old NGK plug.

Mine fired just like it should and the hot idle is not that much higher than cold.

I'm going to leave well enough alone now and just see what happens.

MtnEX

09-28-2008, 10:05 AM

Originally posted by CJM
Well, I got another problem. I adjusted the idle a bit and got it to idle pretty good, and downshifting doesnt seem to backfire and pop at all really (did it once, remember I have to wait to shift I dont have a clutch lever). Duncan offer nothing on jetting.

I can get mine to gurgle a tad downhilling on decel, but no pop.
Is your carb leveled back out yet?... If not, do that.

Then try backing the screw on out to see if the popping stops.

MtnEX

09-28-2008, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by CJM

Now I have a bigger problem, downshifting/deceleration gives me white smoke. The oil is fresh and I went with the recommendation of 15W-50 Mobil 1 full syn..

This is becoming a nightmare.

Trust me man... put it aside for now... one thing at a time.

Just check your plug condition and make sure you are not too lean. Also, insure you did not over-fill with oil.

If you are not, just chill and give it time while you work through the first issue. Get your carb right and worry about the white smoke next. Could just be moisture in the exhaust... could be many things... blue smoke would be more concerning.

When you get your clutch fixed... decel and whip it around fast, driving back into your exhaust fumes. You'll smell the stinch if it's oil.

CJM

09-28-2008, 10:38 AM

Oh i think its idling good, i think im gonna back the screw out a bit and see to be sure.

I leveled the carb back out so no worries there.

EDIT:

Its running rich, the smoke smells like gas. Im gonna try backing off the screw a bit.

EDIT 2:
I give up, the pilot isnt correct imho and I played with everything. It will idle ok, power is there but it backfires a bit and I just dont feel its right.

MtnEX

09-28-2008, 11:04 AM

Hummm...

Remember the pilot screw is a fuel screw.
Backing out will make the circuit richer.
That should solve the pop possibly... but I guess it's possible it's a rich pop from one of the circuits being rich.

You really need 3 new plugs to do jetting runs on all 3 circuits to see where you are actually lean/rich.

CJM

09-28-2008, 11:21 AM

I backed off, snugged, etc still no changes...

MtnEX

10-02-2008, 12:37 AM

CJM,

How's it going?
Have you tried anything?

If you're still getting nowhere, have you checked for intake and exhaust leaks?

Myself... I never would have thought it, but I did indeed move mine 1/4 turn and put my old NGK back in.... and it has been great ever since. Starting great without later idle rpm issues.

Tomorrow morning will be a good test to go by for me though.
It's snapped off colder again here and it hasn't been fired in days.

CJM

10-02-2008, 02:27 PM

Im stuck with the following:

It will run on a higher idle, I lower it down and it cuts out.

I downshift it pops and backfires, whites smoke.

I havent tried a new plug yet (doing later today) , but am getting very frustrated right now.

The pilot screw is 2 1/4 turns out, but adjusting it seems to do nothing but make the quad not run. I get no misfires, no other issues, it just quits.

I am thinking the needle/seat maybe damaged or the pilot is incorrect.

Among other things I got my new clutch lever but the clutch now feels scratchy right by the lever..dunno why but it feels like its dragging.

EDIT:
How the hell does one get the plug off? Every spark plug socket I own will not fit in that hole where the plug is. Unless I of course need to buy stupid socket for it..which is the case isnt it?

drew416ex

10-02-2008, 02:52 PM

You have to either use the one honda makes for it, the one motion pro makes for it, or grind down one of yours to make it fit in the hole.

CJM

10-02-2008, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by drew416ex
You have to either use the one honda makes for it, the one motion pro makes for it, or grind down one of yours to make it fit in the hole.

I figured as much...nothing is ever easy is it?

MtnEX

10-02-2008, 10:06 PM

Go out and buy a Stanely deep drive 18mm.

It's the only thing off the shelf I found that had a thin enough wall to work.

I found mine at walmart... a strip of deep drive sockets 10mm-19mm.

In any event, it has to be an 18mm thin wall socket.
The regular stanley's just happened to barely fit.

MtnEX

10-02-2008, 10:34 PM

CJM,

Thinking back... yeah, you need to get something... and get some plug readings.

Did you do the pipe and filter without re-jetting?

If so, you're running lean, and you're going to have to up the jetting before you hurt it.

Your pilot jet either has something in it, or it's too small and you'll need to up to a 40 or 42. I'm going to do this myself. Mine is still cold natured when it's cool out or it's been sitting.

CJM

10-03-2008, 09:47 AM

I didnt put the pipe on and dont know if the previous owner did.

Im gonna go to my buddys mechanic shop later today and see if they have a socket I can borrow for the plug.

MtnEX

10-08-2008, 01:22 AM

Originally posted by MtnEX
You know, the one the idle screw is attached to on the left side of the carb?....

Can I take that thing loose for a few without loosing the idle setting?

It's in the way of getting to the pilot screw!

The answer is YES you can take the mount loose without effecting the setting.

In the next day or so I will let you all know how it works out when I put my carb back on.

I had the carb off for other things tonight and decided to remove that stripped screw and check this out while I could see the inner part of the adjuster.

I'll probably try to come up with some sort of solution for fastening the mount in an easier/better fashion.

MtnEX

10-08-2008, 01:25 AM

Originally posted by CJM

I am thinking the needle/seat maybe damaged or the pilot is incorrect.

You can just simply back the pilot screw all the way out of the hole and have a look at it. It comes out as an assembly. I pulled mine out just to have a look at the needle tip and seal.

CJM

10-09-2008, 03:40 PM

Ok I went to sears, got an 18mm socket and ground it down. I wasnt paying 20+ for a stinking socket. FYI: sears sells the 18mm 3/8 deep for 6 bucks!

Anyways old plug was NASTY, all fouled out so I changed it for my new one.

Bike runs much better, but still has some popping/cracking and a wee bit of smoke if i gun it and go to 3rd then downshift back to 1st way quick.

I pulled the plug (see pic) and I think im running a bit to rich (very little) so fuel screw out leans or is it in? iirc its out, I have it set about 2 1/4 turns out. Maybe 2.5 out should do it at most. However the electrode isnt sooty really just the surrounding metal.

I may have to have someone play with it a bit tho.

Ppic is after I played around, I did do some fine tuning and its closer to perfect. Screw is 2.25 turns out, idle is set pretty well where it should be. It still pops/cracks, but I have an exhaust leak where my pipes meet my muffler, I can see the black build up there and thats the area where the pop/crack comes from.

Otherwise she seems to be running great, no smoke on decel like I had and no issues with acceleration at all, throttle is very responsive.

CJM

10-09-2008, 03:43 PM

Plug after some tuning.

MtnEX

10-09-2008, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by CJM
Plug after some tuning.

What did you tune exactly?

Have you looked at the plug after a run in all 3 ranges?

Idle - 1/8 throttle (pilot jet)

1/8 - 3/4 throttle (needle clip setting)

3/4 - full throttle (main jet)

I think you are popping because...

(A) Lean on one of the 3 circuits

(B) Faulty air cut-off valve

(C) Weak low rpm spark

(D) Either B, C, or something else spilling unburnt fuel in exhaust

(E) Exhaust leak

Myself, I wish I knew better the plug color we are really looking for.
Light grey or brown...

Mine looks about like yours I think at 2.25 on the 38 pilot, needle in second position from top, 155 main jet... but I'll have to compare pics to be sure.

I'm doing some more tuning this weekend and will post where that goes...

MtnEX

10-09-2008, 04:31 PM

Yeah, I think we are kinda close on plug condition...

CJM

10-09-2008, 04:33 PM

I just checked it after idle and snapping the throttle a bit, looked the same.

Then I rode around and checked.

Ill have to do exactly what your saying to know for sure. Thanks for the advice....

I am almost positive its an exhaust leak tho. 1. My exhaust has soot where the one pipe meets the muffler. 2. The muffler itself has no soot. This coulda been caused by running to rich as the 1st plug was all fouled out.

3. The muffler is held on by a metal band attached to the frame. The band sucks I drilled into the muffler and band with some sheetmetal screws to attach it. Before this, there was no popping of any sort.

It only pops when I downshift fast, if I do it normally there is no real pop. When I upshift or give it throttle there is no problem and I have plenty of power.

Spark plugs with the right settings should be tan.

CJM

10-09-2008, 06:28 PM

Well I let it cool down and just went out to check. It wont stay running without warming up a bit it seems, I dunno why.. its to late to really play with it tho.

A friend once said to me (he has owned alot of honda atv/bikes) that once you need to get something right with thier carbs, unless you know exactly what your doing it will take you forever to get right. I think hes right..he races and pays the local dealer to make sure his bike is tip top every season.

My suzuki mikuni is way easier to deal with..

drew416ex

10-09-2008, 08:19 PM

I sure wish I could help yall a little better. Thankfully I have never had this much trouble.

CJM

10-09-2008, 08:28 PM

Neither have I, it baffles me as to wtf is going on. I really dont want to pay the dealer to fix it, but their work is guaranteed.

Oh well winters coming and I wont be able to ride to much due to work.

MtnEX

10-10-2008, 09:27 PM

I still haven't gotten mine back together to know anything.

What the helllll is with all the softy screws on these things?

My intake boot clamp screw is stripped out.
I gotta get that out and replace it, or get a new clamp or just get a plain old hose clamp.... can't put the carb back on until I do.

CJM

10-10-2008, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by MtnEX
I still haven't gotten mine back together to know anything.

What the helllll is with all the softy screws on these things?

My intake boot clamp screw is stripped out.
I gotta get that out and replace it, or get a new clamp or just get a plain old hose clamp.... can't put the carb back on until I do.

Yea i hate soft screws..

I would just go find a hose clamp, but then again i have used zip ties with success before lol..