450R Brake Upgrade Info

[Wheelie]

After researching this subject extensively, and the recent threads about it, I thought it might be a good idea to make a thread to answer everyones questions on the subject.

Here are a couple pics I took comparing the 04-05 spindle to the 06-up spindle. The 06-up spindles look nearly identical to the 400ex spindle.


The 04/05 spindle is on top, 06-up on the bottom.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s213/Theyak777/DSCF0036.jpg

04/05 on the left, 06-up on the right. Notice the extra material on the 06 spindle. The spindle is notably heavier than the 04/05 spindle. Also note the location of the arm where the tie-rod attaches to the spindle. The 06-up spindle places the tie-rod attachment point closer to the upper ball joint.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s213/Theyak777/DSCF0037.jpg

04/05 on the left, 06-up on the right.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s213/Theyak777/DSCF0038.jpg


The stock 400ex hubs will bolt up to the 06-up spindles without any issues, the caliper alignment is perfect.

The 04/05 spindle will require the use of 04/05 hubs and due to caster changes, an adjustable upper a-arm is advised: I don't know this first hand, this info is based on issues posted on here, and judging by the differences in the spindles, I could foresee it being an issue.

Any other info is welcome.

Mods, make this a sticky?

[flauge]

Man thanks a lot, I've been needing some side by side pics to see where the tie rod arm is located on the 06's. From the looks of it, the 06's will solve my tie rod end clearence issues.:confused:

so why didnt others hink of this before? Everyone was doing the 04/05 I wuld assume because the 04/05 450r handled better? So this mod will improve braking and will widen the quad?

[Wheelie]

The 04/05 Spindles improve the handling on a 06-up 450R, which is why I think a lot of the EX riders were using the 04/05 spindles and the 06-up spindles were shunned. After reading another post about the 06-up spindles, I decided to buy one to see the difference for myself.

This mod will improve braking. I don't think the quad will be any wider using the EX hubs. I won't know for sure until I get my other spindle and mount everything up.

I cant wait to hear how it rides

[Wheelie]

I just scored the spindle I needed off Ebay! Hopefully it will be here by next weekend and I can finally finish the conversion!

[sc400ex_rider]

hi wheelie i PM you about the front width when you done.

[Wheelie]

I received the spindle yesterday, I plan on installing everything on Saturday.

I will take pics before I start and after I finish of the front end. I will also post any changes to the width of the front end, if any; any adjustments or changes needed in toe-in, and any other information that seems relevant at the time.

I will do everything I can to make sure that someone interested in this mod won't have any unanswered questions after reading this post.

If there is anything in particular anyone wants/needs to know, let me know before Saturday morning and I will get the relevant information.

[TheNewn]

I'm pretty interested in the outcome of this, if all you needed (unmodified) was to buy 06+ spindles and calipers to make the conversion, i'd be all over it.

Let me know how it turns out.

[Wheelie]

The brake swap is done!! The braking performance is incredible, this is a must do swap. I need to bleed my brakes one more time, as the brake feel is a bit mushy. Regardless, this thing stops on a dime!

I've got a lot of information to post up, so this might take several posts to do it....I've also got about 15 pictures of the swap, posting tie-rod clearance, spindle differences, etc.


First of all:

This was literally a plug and play mod, there were NO adjustments needed to toe-in or caster. Also, there weren't any differences in width due to the swap--the measurements were EXACTLY the same as far as toe-in was concerned, and width--no changes whatsoever due to the swap.

Another note--the 450R brake lines are 1" longer than the EX brake lines, they were a bit long in my setup, even with my +1's. I'm sure they would work great with +2's. I used the EX brake line from the master cylinder to the 'T' on the frame, the R lines from the 'T' to the calipers.

My Part List:

06-up Spindles
450R calipers and Master Cylinder
450R brake hoses

All you need for this swap at a bare minimum is the 06-up 450R Spindles and Calipers. I would recommend buying the R master cylinder, due to the shorter and adjustable brake lever. Not to mention the option of running a brake light on a EX.

[Wheelie]

Here's a pic before I started. I used the sand tires because the rib in the center makes it much easier to measure toe-in.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s213/Theyak777/DSCF0045.jpg


Here are a few comparison pics between to the EX and the 06-up R spindles. The R spindles are much beefier and heavier than the EX spindles. The 1st two pics the R spindle is on the right. The last pic the R spindle is on the left.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s213/Theyak777/DSCF0047.jpg
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s213/Theyak777/DSCF0048.jpg
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s213/Theyak777/DSCF0049.jpg

[Wheelie]

This is with the R spindles bolted in place.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s213/Theyak777/DSCF0050.jpg

Hubs and calipers bolted up.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s213/Theyak777/DSCF0051.jpg

[Wheelie]

The next 2 pics show my brake line routing. I did it this way for 2 reasons: 1. because my Houser arms don't have a tab in the stock location--heck they don't have a tab to retain a brake line at all

2. The use of the R brake lines wouldn't allow the stock retainer to be used (the one that bolts to the upper ball joint nut).

I move the stock retainer from the upper ball joint nut to the lower shock mount bolt and routed the brake line accordingly. It looks unusual, but it's out of the way and the line doesn't get pinched or kinked. I actually like how it turned out.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s213/Theyak777/DSCF0052.jpg
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s213/Theyak777/DSCF0053.jpg

[coryatver]

I have some 06 450r spindles as well as the rest of the stock front end for sale if anyone is interested

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=365986

[Wheelie]

This is a shot of the 450R master cylinder, the brake lever is a lot shorter than the EX brake lever--it's also adjustable. Another added bonus is the microswitch. With a little time and effort a brake light could be wired in utilizing this switch.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s213/Theyak777/DSCF0054.jpg

I had some requests for pictures showing tie-rod clearance. The clearance wasn't affected, it's the same as it was with the stock EX spindles.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s213/Theyak777/DSCF0055.jpg

Here's shot with it all finished. The sun came out and screwed up the quality of the photo. I wanted to ride it so I didn't take a second shot.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s213/Theyak777/DSCF0056.jpg

[Wheelie]

Any feedback or questions would be greatly appreciated. I tried to make this process as informative as possible and to remove all doubt and questions as to what was needed to complete this upgrade.


I personally think this would make a great sticky.



Jeremiah

[TheNewn]

hell yeah we shoudl sticky this, it seems like the perfect swap. a follow up after you bleed the breaks again would be great.

Seems like a very nice bang for the buck braking modification.

thanks for all the information. i'll be looking into it.

[Wheelie]

I bleed the brakes again today and the brake feel improved a lot. It's now where it should be. The braking performance of this swap still has me smiling---time to practice stoppies/nose wheelies.:macho

[flauge]

You da man, Wheelie! Thanks for the clearence pic. Those are factory rims too right? They look like they are from looking at the lip. Those would definitely hit with my 04-05's and I don't even want to know how they would work with 4:1's. :eek:
I guess I'm gonna be having me a new off-season project coming up.:D

[Wheelie]

They are factory wheels.

I went for a ride yesterday afternoon to see how everything felt. The turning radius wasn't affected, the quad handles no different than it did before--until the brake lever is pulled.:macho

[leprogle85]

Do you know if calipers are the same throughout the years, or are 04-05 calipers different from the 06-08??

[Wheelie]

Good question--yes they are the same, any year 450R will work.

I'm actually using 05 calipers, lines and master cylinder, w/06-up spindles.

[Wheelie]

Some more information. I installed 07' 450R hubs today due to a broken stud in my stock hubs shortly after my brake swap (I made a mistake--it had nothing to do with the swap).

The 450R hubs made no difference in the width of the quad, the inner seal and bearing spacer are identical to the EX seal and spacer.

The outer seal and spacer is different, but interchangeable.

I decided to go with the R hubs for the color--to match the rest of my EX. Also the R hubs show the wheel stud separately on the parts breakdown, if I break a stud now, I buy a stud. The EX hubs do not show the stud as being replaceable/a separate item.

[flauge]

Originally posted by Wheelie
After researching this subject extensively, and the recent threads about it, I thought it might be a good idea to make a thread to answer everyones questions on the subject.

Here are a couple pics I took comparing the 04-05 spindle to the 06-up spindle. The 06-up spindles look nearly identical to the 400ex spindle.


The 04/05 spindle is on top, 06-up on the bottom.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s213/Theyak777/DSCF0036.jpg

04/05 on the left, 06-up on the right. Notice the extra material on the 06 spindle. The spindle is notably heavier than the 04/05 spindle. Also note the location of the arm where the tie-rod attaches to the spindle. The 06-up spindle places the tie-rod attachment point closer to the upper ball joint.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s213/Theyak777/DSCF0037.jpg

04/05 on the left, 06-up on the right.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s213/Theyak777/DSCF0038.jpg


The stock 400ex hubs will bolt up to the 06-up spindles without any issues, the caliper alignment is perfect.

The 04/05 spindle will require the use of 04/05 hubs and due to caster changes, an adjustable upper a-arm is advised: I don't know this first hand, this info is based on issues posted on here, and judging by the differences in the spindles, I could foresee it being an issue.

Any other info is welcome.

Mods, make this a sticky?

I just thought of something... Because the tie rod attachment point is further away from the upper ball joint on the 04/05's, would that make for a wider turning radius than with the 06's or even the stock ex hubs??

[flauge]

^^^^ oopps spindles, I meant the spindles..

[Wheelie]

Originally posted by flauge
I just thought of something... Because the tie rod attachment point is further away from the upper ball joint on the 04/05's, would that make for a wider turning radius than with the 06's or even the stock ex hubs??

It's very possible.

The drastic differences between the two spindles could make for some interesting handling characteristics.

[flauge]

Originally posted by Wheelie
It's very possible.

The drastic differences between the two spindles could make for some interesting handling characteristics.
Yea, tell me about it.. I got a good taste of those interesting handling characteristics at a race this past Sunday.. The track was very tight and got rutted out by the last 2 laps, thats really when my theory hit me, well after a lot of cussing that is.. :o

[Wheelie]

I just scored a 450R rear caliper off Ebay, I already have the brake stay and rotor/brake hub. When I do the install, I'll take a bunch of pics and post all the information here.


Mods, make this a sticky? I think this thread will help a lot of people out.

[Wheelie]

I already tore down the rear setup without taking any pics to replace a bad axle bearing. The bearings should be here next weds, the brake pads for the rear caliper will be here weds as well.

The 450R rear brake swap will be done next weekend--hopefully on the 20th. I can't wait!:macho

[riotact]

I cant wait to see how that goes!!

[darvo]

Definetly Sticky This!!!:blah:

[ae13291]

good stuff man good stuff, this is real nice info, it sure is wonderful to upgrade to 2 piston calipers, so it works still on the stock 400ex disks? i would really be interested in the rear caliper because the 400ex rear brakes arent the best

[Wheelie]

Originally posted by ae13291
good stuff man good stuff, this is real nice info, it sure is wonderful to upgrade to 2 piston calipers, so it works still on the stock 400ex disks? i would really be interested in the rear caliper because the 400ex rear brakes arent the best

The stock 400ex discs are the same as all years 450R front discs--just the rotors are the same.


The EX rear sucks, to me it seems there isn't any modulation. It's either locked up or not. I'm hoping the R rear setup allows better control of what the rear tires are doing. If not, the 1/2"+ of ground clearance gained (the R rotor is about 1 1/8in smaller than the EX rotor) and slightly less weight will make the swap worthwhile.

[Wheelie]

Another note to add. Changing brake pads on the R calipers is MUCH easier than the EX setup. Both the front and rear pads have much more pad surface area as well.


I haven't got the rear mounted yet, but by the looks of it, the caliper will sit farther forward on the swingarm. I will check exhaust clearance for issues once installed. The farther forward mounted caliper will also reduce the effect of unsprung weight on the rear suspension.

[Wheelie]

The rear brake upgrade is done, and it's very simple! I checked the exhaust for clearance, and it's not an issue. There is plenty of clearance with the rear suspension bottomed out.


Comparison pic of the R rotor and EX rotor, EX on left, R on the right.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s213/Theyak777/DSCF0119-1.jpg

R brake stay in place, R caliper resting on the swingarm.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s213/Theyak777/DSCF0120-1.jpg

Caliper sitting in place.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s213/Theyak777/DSCF0121-1.jpg

[Wheelie]

Due to the farther forward mounting of the R caliper, the brake line has some excess slack, even with my +1 1/4 swinger.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s213/Theyak777/DSCF0122-1.jpg

To help cure the problem, I cut about 2" of the protective rubber coating off the rear brake line so I could move the line forward, hence moving some of the slack forward.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s213/Theyak777/DSCF0123-1.jpg

My EX parking brake block off bolted right up to the R caliper, the brake line looks much better now with the slack adjusted.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s213/Theyak777/DSCF0124-1.jpg

All Done! The rotor is a skosh smaller in diameter than my 36 tooth rear sprocket.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s213/Theyak777/DSCF0125-1.jpg

[Wheelie]

I need to wash my quad again, it's embarrassing how dirty it is in these pics.

The brake feel is much better with the R caliper, the rear brakes don't lock up instantly any more. The 1/2"+ of ground clearance gained and less weight (about 1lb) is another added bonus.

All it took for this swap is:

450R brake stay
450R Rotor and Hub
450R Rear caliper

It's literally a plug and play mod. Everything bolts right in place and looks factory.


Mods--Sticky this?

[gpd005]

I did the front brake mod over the weekend and I love it! I will be putting them to good use this weekend at the Snowshoe, WV GNCC. And i have everything to change the rear over as well. Great info and thanks for taking the time to post all the pictures.

[Wheelie]

Bled the brakes again today and flushed some fresh fluid through the system. Then I went on a test ride for about an hour to see how everything felt.

The control over the rear brakes are sooo much better with the R setup, I love being able to use the rear brake without having them lock up.

For those out there that hate the EX setup, do this mod.

[monster400ex]

wow this thread is awsome!, i just put the front master on a few weeks ago and it made a huge difference, can't wait to do the front calipers, working on the rear caliper at the moment just need a few more parts. im also goin to put the 450r swing arm and shock on. im hoping this setup should be better for mx.

[Wheelie]

Originally posted by monster400ex
wow this is awsome i had put just the front master on and it made a difference cant wait to do the front brakes working on the rears at the moment just need a few parts im also goin to put the r swing arms and shock on should be better for mx

Punctuation please, that is nearly impossible to read.

[riotact]

Since you did the conversion,how well do the R brake pads wear compaired to the EX pads.I only get about three weekends worth out of a set of rear pads even with a rebuilt rear caliper.

[Wheelie]

I haven't had the rear setup on long enough to tell. The fronts have been wearing very well.

[400man]

does the 450r brake hub work on the 400ex axle just fine? and can I use the stock 400ex axle lock nut? really thinking about doing the rear brake switch after I get my sprocket guard, going for max ground clearance!! :eek:

[riotact]

Yes it fits.You need the R hub,rotor,caliper,and brake stay.Everyting else from the 400 goes back on.

[Wheelie]

Originally posted by riotact
Yes it fits.You need the R hub,rotor,caliper,and brake stay.Everything else from the 400 goes back on.

Exactly.

[400man]

awesome, im deffinatly gonna do this mod in the near future. ive been looking for the parts on ebay, and it will cost between 110 and 140$ shipped for all the parts.

[riotact]

I just got my rear 450r caliper today and I have a question.Is the caliper supposed to slide on slider pins like the ex does or is it different?It has one pin that slides in the boot and the other one is where a bolt goes through to hold the caliper to the mount and on mine that one does not move.Is it supposed to?

[riotact]

Any ideas?

[Wheelie]

The R caliper design is completely different than the EX setup. The pads are much easier to change on the R setup.

Riotact--What you are describing sounds correct.



Mods--make this a sticky?

[daigs85]

some one mentioned with the 450r master that you could run a brake light?? i did the mod with a 04-05 parts and dont remember there being any type of microswitch intagrated into it

[nealrod]

Guys, you may be able to get a little more bang for your buck using Yamaha YFZ450 front calipers. They are dual piston as well, and there is no need to swap spindles! They are a direct bolt on for 400ex. On mine, they are awesome. Smokes the stock brakes in performance.

[Wheelie]

Originally posted by daigs85
some one mentioned with the 450r master that you could run a brake light?? i did the mod with a 04-05 parts and dont remember there being any type of microswitch intagrated into it

I'm using the 04-05 Master Cylinder and it has a microswitch on it. One of these days I'll fab up a brake light and make use of it.

[daigs85]

can some one please take a similar picture of there 450 master with the switch in place so i can see how it looks, i have a "tail light" but wouldnt mind a actual brake light

[RustyStunts]

fyi for the rear brakes...a rear rotor from a 600rr f4i and 1000rr fits the rear of a 400ex and 450r and is much thicker....works great...just a lil upgrade

[400man]

Originally posted by nealrod
Guys, you may be able to get a little more bang for your buck using Yamaha YFZ450 front calipers. They are dual piston as well, and there is no need to swap spindles! They are a direct bolt on for 400ex. On mine, they are awesome. Smokes the stock brakes in performance.

does anybody know if this is true or not? Im planning on upgrading my front brakes (already did the 450r rear brake swap)

if the yfz caliper is a direct bolt on then that might be a little better option for me.

[levonskinator]

Originally posted by nealrod
Guys, you may be able to get a little more bang for your buck using Yamaha YFZ450 front calipers. They are dual piston as well, and there is no need to swap spindles! They are a direct bolt on for 400ex. On mine, they are awesome. Smokes the stock brakes in performance.

yea do you have any pictures of this cause this would be so much easier and cheaper

[redzoomer]

Originally posted by levonskinator
yea do you have any pictures of this cause this would be so much easier and cheaper

I just did it, took about an hour. I have $52 in the calipers and shipping.

[mustangguy6703]

Originally posted by nealrod
Guys, you may be able to get a little more bang for your buck using Yamaha YFZ450 front calipers. They are dual piston as well, and there is no need to swap spindles! They are a direct bolt on for 400ex. On mine, they are awesome. Smokes the stock brakes in performance.

what year of calipers did you use?

[01boneless]

holly thread digging batman!!!!!:eek2:

[4WheelinDemon]

Alrighty so i need a rear caliper anyway and a 450r caliper sounds like a hard on. Those YFZ front calipers sound good too. Wheelie, i give you props on your posts.
I do how ever have some questions.

Do you really need the 450r brake stay for this caliper? It wont bolt right on to the stock 400ex brake stay?

Do you NEED to use the 450r brake hub and disk?

As for the YFZ front calipers...

Are they a true plug and play with no other parts you need to buy to make this swap work correctly?

What year YFZ front calipers did you use?


Thank you hope to hear back soon so i can get all these things off ebay already haha

[Zeb400EX]

its true about the yfz calipers. mount them up, bleed'em and go. I think my r from a 05 yfz, but I think any year will work. its one of the best mods I've done to the 400. its made me faster in the woods just knowing I can stop way faster than with the stock brakes. lot less hassle and money than the 450r brake system.

[4WheelinDemon]

I'll look into it.
Can you do us all a favor Zeb400EX and take more pictures of that YFZ caliper on your 400? about five or six shots from all angles would help out greatly.
Thank ya

[supertrooper90]

The only problem I had with my yfz calipers was after I put them on I realized one of my rotors was badly warped. I guess since the stock 400ex calipers are not as long as the dual piston yfz calipers it never effected anything. But when I put the yfz calipers my one wheel kept locking up.
After I replaced the rotor... the yfz calipers were the easiest best mod Ive made to my quad. A true bolt on and go. No other mods whats so ever.
Mine are from an '08 yfz

[4WheelinDemon]

what years your 400?

[supertrooper90]

it doesnt matter. theyre all the same.

[Zeb400EX]

he's right. it deosn't matter. But mines a 03

[forestbrian88]

Ill resurect this thread with a new question :p
got all the rear 450R Brake (Master Cylinder, Caliper Resy....etc)
only missing the Rotor and Caliper bracket
and i was wondering if the 450R Rear master could be used?

[Stickman400]

You only need the 450 brake stay, caliper, rotor and hub. You can use your stock 400 master cylinder and reservoir. I don't think you can even use the 450 master because the mount for the reservoir line is on the back, the 400s is on the inside, and the reservoir mount where it goes on the frame is on the back and the 400s is on the front. And I don't think you would gain anything from using them since they are the same size.

Compare them
450: http://www.motosport.com/atv/oem-parts/HONDA/2006/TRX450R-%28KICK-START%29/REAR-BRAKE-MASTER-CYLINDER
400: http://www.motosport.com/atv/oem-parts/HONDA/2005/TRX400EX/REAR-BRAKE-MASTER-CYLINDER

[forestbrian88]

i was looking i can make it fit i just bought a lot of part and the master is a bit rusty but my 450R master is almost new its possible to fit ill be posting some pictures is anyone is interested
and i was wondering if anyone ever tried fiting a 450R Brake pedal too?
i got one here and it looks way more sharper then the Ex one :p
so i dont know if anyone as figured out an easy way to install it?