Opinions needed on variator marks

[wvspeedfreak]

Here is a pic of the magic marker lines on our variator.Should it be shifting all the way to the top or is this ok?I have a feeling I am losing some top end performance here.

[Nichols Atvs]

Needs to come up more about 1/8 from the top down .You running a mallossi 2742 belt.

[wvspeedfreak]

Yes,that is the belt that's in there.

[bulldogfallon]

Have you also considered your sprocketing/final drive ration?

This can reduce RPMs as well which could reduce belt travel as well


Just something to consider

[wvspeedfreak]

Originally posted by bulldogfallon
Have you also considered your sprocketing/final drive ration?

This can reduce RPMs as well which could reduce belt travel as well


Just something to consider


We are running 19/30 gearing with the standard ratio transmission which is a fairly low gear ratio overall.I haven't hooked a tach up but the engine seems like it is cranking pretty good.

[wvspeedfreak]

Also,when checking for a full shift,how far do you need to run the quad?Is 300 feet enough?Like wide open from takeoff to the end of 300 feet?

[machwon]

I'd try different rollers first, then rear spring if needed. Ours will wipe the marks clean all the way to the top.

I have another opinion/observation that I'm overally anal about. I always run the belt so I can read the writing left to right. Mostly because I'm a snowmobile guy but a lot of the sled stuff insists you can read the wording. Either way just be sure to run the belt consistently in the same direction.

[dirttrack86]

Well , a lot of us guys are from the south, so those words only look like scribbels. ROFLMAO. JUST KIDDING !!!:D

[wvspeedfreak]

If I put enough roller weight in to make it shift all the way out I get a lag on the takeoff.If I lighten the roller weight enough to make it launch good I only get the shift travel shown in the picture....

[bulldogfallon]

Welcome to the CVT world :) :)


It all comes down to the magic combination of:

Rollers, springs, hardware mods, belt, and sprocket combos.

Some cut the front variator or mod the rear pulley..

This is where the really fast guys get their extra magic.

Most keep their secrets close to the chest

[wvspeedfreak]

Ok,I will keep messing with it until I get it figured out.

[machwon]

Originally posted by wvspeedfreak
If I put enough roller weight in to make it shift all the way out I get a lag on the takeoff.If I lighten the roller weight enough to make it launch good I only get the shift travel shown in the picture....

How does the Malossi belt differ from stock? OEM's stuff pretty much have the belt size perfect. In other words run a stock belt and then match a quality rear spring and rollers. I prefer the Mallosi springs. Ours wipes the magic markers clean all the way everytime. Yellow Mallosi, stock belt, 2000 rpm springs, 3.0 gram rollers, 18 tooth sprocket. This set up pulled every holeshot in the Michigan limited stock 50cc classes including red bud.

No secrets witheld here. This is what works for us on the little tracks in Michigan.

[wvspeedfreak]

Machwon,the Malossi belt is slightly wider than stock .5 mm I believe.Here is my exact set up.It is on a 90cc:

Stock front variator
4.5 gram rollers
Malossi 2742 belt
Koso complete rear clutch
2000 Koso clutch springs
1500 Koso t-spring

This setup launches off the line absolutely awesome but leaves the magic marker lines shown above.I am overall very happy with the performance of the quad other than the marks :p

What exactly am I losing by not getting a full shift?Top end speed?

[wvspeedfreak]

Also could someone tell me how far at wot you need to run to acheive a full shift?Hell,I may be chasing a ghost here if I am not running it far enough.The motor is screaming at the end of a test run which is approximately 300 feet here.

[Nichols Atvs]

That sould be plenty 300 feet. When our t spring is week the front will not come to the top thats how i know to change it out try a malossi 1500 or 2000 t spring you might like those better.or a ZTR 1500.You may need a little more roller weight try bumping up to 4.8. But remember one thing to a time. Another thing try either a 20 front or a 28 rear or both.Good luck

[dericsdad]

We are running the exact same set up, but with a 1500 malossi T spring, and 4.5/5 gram rollors. Couldn't get the Koso 1500 spring to work well. Ours is air cooled, but highy tuned so it should be close in power to yours.

Deric got a lot of hole shots this year, even against a cobra 70 mod, and 85cc shifter mods.

Dan.

[bulldogfallon]

Complete belt travel should be done in the shortest possible distance (without losing performance through premature shifting)

Why have it if it can't be used??

I like the stock 90 belt w/ZTR 1500 and 5 to 5.25 gram rollers on a stock quad.


If you have done any performance work you power band will change and effect your CVT significantly.

Changing to smaller rear or larger front increase your chance of losing RPMs therefore losing potential belt travel.


If you are fairly happy with your current set up then i would try 4.75 gram rollers and see how it effects your top end and launch.

You may also want to make sure the spring is warmed up in the back a little...once it heats up it will compress easier and giver the rollers the upper hand with belt travel.

[bulldogfallon]

Timed runs along with an RPM will help tell the truth on mods...


Great holeshots can be impressive to watch, but in reality that "could be" due to too light of rollers, so you lose belt travel and top end..

That comment was not a repsonse to any of the other posts....just a general statement since a lot people guage success by how the quad launches from a dead stop.

[QuadJunkies]

I couldnt agree more with Garys posts...

this is how we determine everything on my sons as well.
Jason, try a roller weight change and see how it goes.Maybe try the 4.8
We personally like the stock belts better than Malossi because when they go bad, they make a heck of a mess vs the stock ones.We also felt for our application the stock belts seem to perform better.

[BradLoomis]

We have a 300' strip that we test our setups on. It is marked out in 25' increments and I time them through the different lengths, depending on what I am testing. Since I run a different belt/variator assembly than most, I ran the quad 25' and checked the marks. Then run it at 50' and check the marks. Then 75' and so on without changing anything. This will let you know when and where your cvt is at and when the engine takes over. Now make your change and do it all over again. This will tell you more than you think about the tranny setup.

[hotquads1]

Jason , with the 1500 Koso t-spring you will have to run about 5.5 rollers or close to it , to achieve the presure it takes to shift out fully. top rpm being the factor. if you bog with that weight roller then the cylinder port timing could need to be adjusted (may be too high). what cylinder have you got ?
marc

[wvspeedfreak]

Marc,that is exactly the rollers I had to put in to get a full shift(at least as full as I can get so far) but it does bog wit those.It is a B-52 cylinder.I have a ZTR 1500 spring here I haven't tried yet too.

[hotquads1]

what pipe ?

[wvspeedfreak]

Trinity pipe

[bulldogfallon]

You may have to stall your clutch up higher to get it to launch in the right power range....

That is the age old battle....Mid to high power and still needing a great launch

Have you tried any variator shims or different belt?


We have good luck with the stock DRX90 pipe, but are testing a nice prototype pipe right now

[Bill Lemans]

wvspeedfreak,

I am having the same issue and I'm running the b-52 and 4.5g rollers with 19/28 gears.1500 springs. I also took the variator apart and noticed the belt wasn't positioned all the way down. I used a piece of solder and did a "squish" test by gradually tightening nut ,with the solder added as a spacer, and compressed until i got the belt where I wanted it. Then I measured it and just finished grinding it. Will try it by end of week.Then 5g rollers if that doesn't help.

Something just dawned on me , too. My belt is 17mm wide instead of a stock 16.5. Mmmmm, i think i'll get a stock one, too.:ermm:

[wvspeedfreak]

I tried the stock belt back in it and it didn't seem to change the performance or change how far the variator shifted out.I have not tried a variator shim yet though.

[neveready]

Which stock belt? Some had the 780 belt stock and it wont shift all the way out for us. We like the 787 in the stock belt. 4.8g rollers will shift all the way up with a 1500ztr spring, we have several running 4.5s (they seem the most popular).

[wvspeedfreak]

787 was the stock belt in ours.Does anyone know if the 787 belt and the Malossi 2742 belt are the same length?I know the malossi is a little wider but is the length the same?

[bulldogfallon]

I believe it is just a little bit shorter

[hotquads1]

Jason, if the kit was ported by Rich before you got it , then give him a call , I am sure he can suggest a solution. The issue with ported cylinders is only one person knows where it is set-up to run , the porting can change the operating range (RPM) greatly , The Trinity pipe should be good, and the rest of your set-up sounds good also . We just finished a 90cc this week that was running the Trinity pipe and with 1500 -T-spring and 5.5 rollers it pops a wheelie on take-off.
marc

[wvspeedfreak]

Thanks everyone for the advice.I haven't had much time lately to try stuff but plan on getting back on it this evening.I will let you know what happens.Thanks again for all the help.

[wvspeedfreak]

I am in need of a new variator.Any suggestions on which one to get or just get a new stock one?Is there any big differences in 90cc stock variators?I have one out of an older Dinli that is in very good shape.Would this work ok in the drr?It is a little different cosmetically.

[bulldogfallon]

We have had good luck with the Dr Pulley variators..

[rider1234]

If you take the starter gears out do you have to shim behind the variator?

[hotquads1]

yes, about 3mm shim.
marc

[rider1234]

right now im just left with a silver collar that slides over the crank shaft against the seal. So i need to add about a 3mm shim on top of that?

thanks

[hotquads1]

yes

so i can pull out all of our starter gears but have to replace them with a 3mm shim? an can you buy a 3 mm shim. if you run a stator can you pull out you magnets so it will be lighter on your crank? is the magnets for the generator?

[dericsdad]

Yes, and Yes. I went to the hardware store and found a big washer just the right thickness. A metal cutting band saw works well to cut the charging coils off of your stator.

Dan

[BradLoomis]

I buy mine in 1/2 and 1mm widths so I can cut 3 mm off of the sleeve and can fine tune our cvt's to exactly what the race track demands of the quad. I can change my stall speed by 1500-1800 rpm wothout touching the clutch. But I also run a custom variator.

McMaster Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/)
metric shims
Page 3174

[rmuscle]

when removing the starter gear do you remove everything that is behind the variator.i seems that richt behind the variator is one par and then the big starter gear is behind that, i dont know if it all comes out or just the gear and the little gears and arms comming off the starter. hope i am making sense

[dericsdad]

Yes, remove it all. Everything except the bushing that is behind it all, that butts up against the crank seal.

Then put the 3mm washer on against that, and install the variator. Or make a new inner bushing that is 3mm longer than the original.

Don't forget to plug the hole where the starter goes through with a freeze plug or expandible rubber plug.

Brad, good tip! I have tuned my variator the hard way all of this time... by using different leangth variator inner bushings, shims, or a different outer variator face.

I will try to incorporate the inner most bushing into my tuning this winter and see if it helps to get it even better.


Always learning something new!!

Dan

[wvspeedfreak]

Ok everybody,here is an update.No matter what I have done,I can't get the variator to shift all the way out.I can get it to take about 1/2 of the mark off that you see in my original pic but that is it.It almost acts like the belt is too short or it needs to drop down in the rear clutch more.I have had this cvt cover off so many times I can do it blindfolded :D Here is what I have found out:

The Malossi belt I am running is slightly longer than the stock 787 belt.Everytime I change rollers,rear spring,etc it is consistently less shift with the stock belt....everything else being equal.

Anything over 5.5 rollers gives me no more shift from the variator.I went up to all 6 gram rollers (that is as heavy as I had here) and it did not shift any more than with the 5.5's.I could see gradual changes in the marks from 4.5 to 5.0 to 5.5 then no more shift was acheived.

I removed the rollers from the variator and installed the belt with the rear clutch completely compressed so the belt sits all the way down.I then manually slid the variator out to see if the belt would come all the way to the top.It would not.It would come just to the sharpie marks and there was still a gap between the variator halves.

I have also tried 2 different rear clutches.Same result.

[bulldogfallon]

Have u tried it on a stand with the wheels in the air?

You may get more rpm this way to see if more travel is even possible

How about a wider belt?

788 x 17??

[Logan #34's Dad]

AHHWWWW, Can't wait to start shifting! LOL. Gary might have the answer. Just make sure a wider belt will go all the way down in the rear clutch or its pointless.

[wvspeedfreak]

The Mallosi belt I have is 17mm wide and slightly longer than the stock 787 x 16 belt I have.I have tried them both :ermm:

I haven't tried it on a stand though.I have probably had Austin put 5 miles on it in 300' runs :p

[wvspeedfreak]

Originally posted by Logan #34's Dad
AHHWWWW, Can't wait to start shifting! LOL. Gary might have the answer. Just make sure a wider belt will go all the way down in the rear clutch or its pointless.

He is learning a real clutch right now.No more than we race,as soon as he gets a little more comfortable with it I'll ditch the cvt.


http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s106/wvspeedfreak/rappy7.jpg

[neveready]

The malossi 6112742 is a 793/16.8/30 belt. Depending on what rear Torsion spring you are running some will mechanically limit the rear pulley which will never let the front fully travel. If you still have a gap in the variator where your marks are you need to get it to drop farther on the rear. I said it on here before but we run 4.5's and 1500ZTR T Springs in our ported 90's with 20/28 gearing and rub the marks all the way off the variator. Shifting ALL the way out is nessesary on a 300ft drag pull, but not on every track, you ever seen a big quad use 5th gear on one? This is also where sprockets come to play. Just my opinion,but I don't think the variator or heavier rollers are going to solve it.

[wvspeedfreak]

I agree,the heavier rollers didn't solve it and seeing how there is gap left in the variator I have ruled that out too.Something is limiting the travel.It currently has a ZTR 1500 spring with 6 gram rollers in it and no matter which belt I use (787 Bando or 2742 Malossi) it won't shift past a certain point.I have had 2 different rear clutches in it.Koso and stock.
We do some 500ft drag racing.That is the biggest reason I am trying to figure this out.

[snowbalz]

I have the same exact problem on a 50cc. Even with the bike on a stand. Wide open the belt will not reach the top no matter what configuration of spring and rollers I use. I got the jetting on the money and the engine screams like a school girl but yet the belt will not reach the last 1/8 inch of travel. So I gave up on it for now.

[Nichols Atvs]

If you are an 1/8 from the top that is full belt travel . No need to be at the top of the variator you are taking a chance that the belt will come off .

[wvspeedfreak]

Got it figured out and working right finally :) Thanks everybody for their input on this.

[JAG Motosports]

What was the solution? After 4 pages on this thread you can't leave us hangin. :confused:

[wvspeedfreak]

Just trying to add some drama to the forums :p


Put in a Malossi 1500 T-spring and bingo,it will fully shift with 4.5 gram rollers.For some reason it wouldn't fully shift with the KOSO or ZTR rear spring.

[bulldogfallon]

Malossi spring is much lighter..

I have a spring tester that is getting modded right now so I will be able to share the different spring rates soon.

You can also mod the rear clutch to allow for more travel on the pulley which would offer more spring options as well.

[wvspeedfreak]

My next step was to find out what needed to be modified on the rear clutch to get the belt further down..

when you find out will you let me know about the rear clutch. thanks wvspeedfreak

[snowbalz]

Yea how do you mod the rear clutch?

[bulldogfallon]

in house mod...

back pocket mod

do you cut the springs down 1/2 inch at a time till you get the best shift out of the rear torque drive? i know people who do cut theres down to get maximum shift.

[wvspeedfreak]

I am probably a little soft on the torsion spring now but it is acceptable.It will light the tires up off the line and still shift all the way out.I do however notice a slight and I mean slight lag in takeoff after the quad has been run a while and the spring gets warm.The perfect spring for my set up right now would be something a little stiffer than the Malossi and a little weaker than the KOSO.The ZTR is the stiffest of the 3.
I have messed with this thing enough for now and I am 95% satisfied..................for now :p

[dericsdad]

Yep, that is just the spring I needed!!! What I ended up using was a used red/2k malossi spring. It is a little stiffer than the yellow malossi, and a little lighter than the 1500 koso.

We settled on staggered 4.0/5.5 weights for our long outdoor mx tracks.

If You find that perfect rear spring somewhere please let me know where to buy one!

Dan

[hotquads1]

the ZTR 1000 is a little stiffer than the yellow mallossi but softer than the koso 1500.
marc

[wvspeedfreak]

Originally posted by dericsdad


If You find that perfect rear spring somewhere please let me know where to buy one!

Dan


Will do Dan.I have a ZTR 1000 on the way to try.

[hotquads1]

Originally posted by dericsdad
Yep, that is just the spring I needed!!! What I ended up using was a used red/2k malossi spring. It is a little stiffer than the yellow malossi, and a little lighter than the 1500 koso.

We settled on staggered 4.0/5.5 weights for our long outdoor mx tracks.

If You find that perfect rear spring somewhere please let me know where to buy one!

Dan

4.0 to 5.5 is a wide stagger , avg would be 4.75 , now 4.75 sets are available by MACH-1 . All of the hard to find sizes like 3.75,4.25, 4.75 in matched sets , no more need to mix and match.
marc

[saintmick]

try malossi red spring 5.5 rollers 17 tooth sprocket you won't loose top speed with the 17 t but gain

[dericsdad]

17 tooth huh???

Marc, can you get the slipper sprocket in that size?

[hotquads1]

slipper is not available in 17t, you will limit your top speed with that large of adjustment to the final drive ratio, any 90cc should be able to pull a 19t frnt . IMO
marc

[TEXWS6]

So how much additional belt travel did you gain? The reason I ask Is because I wonder how good it is to totally wipe off your marks, which might cause the belt to slip off?

I am in the same dilemma. I am running 16x13 6gram rollers with a Koso 1500 and my rear end is a 21 front, 34 rear. I know I have the hp to push it, have tried 5.5g rollers and the belt travel was 3/8"-1/2" off of full travel. Man, I kinda miss the Honda...LOL!

[TEXWS6]

Originally posted by hotquads1
4.0 to 5.5 is a wide stagger , avg would be 4.75 , now 4.75 sets are available by MACH-1 . All of the hard to find sizes like 3.75,4.25, 4.75 in matched sets , no more need to mix and match.
marc

Is there a problem with staggering small and large rollers? It might be the only solution if you can't find the right sized rollers....

[hotquads1]

if you have no choice you can stagger , it is very common , but a close stagger such as 5.0 staggered with 5.5 is much better than 4,5 staggered with 6.0 . The resulting force is equal but you may find premature roller wear with these wide staggers.
marc