Should teachers carry......

[Pappy]

I refuse to even get into a debate over this, but figured I would post it anyway:devil:


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26394165

[ZeroLogic]

I don't think they should. Schools should have security that carry guns.

[extremeblastr]

i don't see why not, with all the school shootings that have gone on and all the gang activity as of late there is no reason they shouldn't.

[gcart2]

i was literally lol'ing when i seen this. so dumb.

[Ruby Soho]

what happens when the smartass pisses the teacher off?

dumb idea

knives yes,
guns no,
tasers yes ("dont taze me bro!") lol

guns there is just too much that can go wrong whether it is loaded and accidentally goes off or a student so happens to grab it or pick it up, at least knives and tasers most of the time will not kill and a person has to be approached to get hit (of course you can throw a knife but chances of it hitting a major artery or something are slim), guns you can fire them from where ever. In Florida your aloud to carry knives even at school there is just a maximum length i cant remember what it was off hand.

[jesseweaver]

no way. we have quite a few crooked teeachers in our school that i would never trust with a gun. we have a cop in there all the time.... thats good enough.

[416exfreak]

Originally posted by FoxHondaRider
knives yes,
guns no,
tasers yes ("dont taze me bro!") lol

guns there is just too much that can go wrong whether it is loaded and accidentally goes off or a student so happens to grab it or pick it up, at least knives and tasers most of the time will not kill and a person has to be approached to get hit (of course you can throw a knife but chances of it hitting a major artery or something are slim), guns you can fire them from where ever. In Florida your aloud to carry knives even at school there is just a maximum length i cant remember what it was off hand.

Not at my school.

You can even have anything that remotely resembles a knife.

[ALAMX37]

Well that is very interesting, there is far to many negatives to out way the positives that surround this subject. I live in the woods and I attend Junior college with 91% minority students. My gun never leaves me. I refuse to put myself in a situation where I can become the victim.
For instance, I had two guys approach my car one day after class and the showed me a knife and asked for my money, very calmly, like nothing was going on. I keep my pistol in a holster that goes behind you and acted like I was getting my wallet and drew my weapon. Granted this wasn't life or death, but I don't believe you should put yourself in a position to be taken advantage of.

[Kickstarts-suck]

Originally posted by 416exfreak
Not at my school.

You can even have anything that remotely resembles a knife.

x2

I voted no

student could get the gun or teacher go nuts.

[631kfx400]

if teachers were given guns ide be dead already:devil:

[quads14589]

hell no dumbist idea ever there r crazy teachers in my school.

[Master LTR450]

Just any teacher - NO

If the teacher is willing to go through some training like a police academy or something then it might honestly be a good idea with the crazy *** kids these days!!!

[Quad18star]

It's all good until some teacher has problems at home , goes to school , has some kid say a smart remark and then wipes out the whole 2nd grade.

Security guards, metal detectors and sniffer dogs ,to me are the right answer ... not gun-totting teachers.

Students will know which teachers carry guns and you'll see gun battles happen in classrooms.

must just be my county then in Florida that you can carry a knife even to school. Also the school or someone may be misinformed about the rules. Seen it happen at my school. My friend got sent to the principals office because he had a knife. He showed them in the laws that its legal as long as its under a certain size and they let him be. I know a couple teachers that have them too. I dont find it a big deal most of the time they are not used as weapons or intended to do that but they come in handy at times. Now I do see minorities with them and they dont intend them as being used as a tool they consider it a weapon. Again I forgot the size of the knife it was something so that it was short enough so it wouldnt pierce the heart or something like that. Check the rules near you, you may be surprised that its legal and you have been misinformed which is normally the case. Do i carry a knife with me? sometimes I will have a swisscard in my wallet and I always have a use for it whether i have to open boxes, cut something out and a few other things its pretty handy.

[450raider]

heres my take every other teacher.... yes, teachers.....NO!!! if there was a way to give the teachers a test to see if they can tell the difference between school and reality (not taking everythng personal) then id say yeah..... although giving them all tasers dosent sound that bad either.

[Master LTR450]

Well if a kid is going to be taken a gun to school theres going to be a problem anyway. So more then likely they would walk in there and eliminate the security guards. With no security guards the metal detectors and dogs are pointless. Dont we already have enough guns battles in schools without the teachers being involved? Not saying they should just be carrying them around all day, but lets take VT for example. EVERYONE heard the shots but what were they going to do? run out into the halls where the shots were coming from, i doubt it. Maybe if one of the teachers had a gun locked in his desk he would of had enough time to get it out and load the gun, and eleminate the problem when he walked through the door. Instead of losing 30+ innocent people!!!

Whats a knife or taser going to do against someone pointing a gun at you?

No friggen way. Just because they're teachers doesn't mean they can't "snap" and start popping caps.
Dumbest idea ever.

[Pappy]

Just wondering......has there been any teachers who have taken a gun to school and shot students?

[Master LTR450]

I dont think so. But come on Pappy lets hear what you think!!1 You started the thread so express your opinion!!

[Quad18star]

I know I heard of one incident overseas a while back where a teacher shot a student in class over something minor. I'll have to try and find the article.

With people going Postal , and factories being shot up , it'll just be a matter of time before some teacher flips out . :ermm:

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Quad18star


With people going Postal , and factories being shot up , it'll just be a matter of time before some teacher flips out . :ermm:

So people can "go off" whether they have a concealed carry permit or not? So having the ability to carry a defensive weapon will lead to people going "postal"?

[Master LTR450]

With people going Postal , and factories being shot up , it'll just be a matter of time before some teacher flips out .

I agree it will only be a matter of time. But think of this there are how many kids to how many teachers?? Its not like this is an everyday thing with kids walking in schools killing people. So what are the chances of the teachers flipping out?? Its just like anything you have to take the good with the bad!!! How many lives could have been saved at VT if a teacher did have a gun and could have stopped that crazy ******* from walking room to room and executing people???

[Quad18star]

Originally posted by Pappy
So having the ability to carry a defensive weapon will lead to people going "postal"?

Not saying it will lead them to it , but it could happen.

I've been in a class where we drove teachers to the point of snapping .... not something I'm proud to say.. but we did it.

It was our goal in grade 6 after our teacher had to take a leave of absence because he had a nervous breakdown. In a 2 week period we went through 4 replacement teachers and one of the teachers was a guy so we pushed him to see how much it would take for him to snap. He finally snapped one day ... grabbed a yard stick and smashed it against one of the students desk who was sitting up front. That student had their hand on the desk and the yard stick caught 2 of their fingers breaking them . He then grabbed a chair and through it against the chalkboard and said as he was leaving " I have to leave before I seriously hurt one of you guys" No BS .

Teachers like that, if they have a gun , could seriously do some harm and kill students .
I could tell by the look on his face that he was seeing black when he was doing all of this .... having a gun in his desk or on his side could have been dangerous at that moment.

[Pappy]

I agree, we did the same....however none of them ever showed up with a gun and shot us up:p If thats what they wanted they could do it with or without a carry permit.

The fact is, an armed citizen is a positive in society, the facts bear this out year after year as concealed carry states grow. I still refuse to levy an opinion on this issue....just making some points:p

[Quad18star]

Originally posted by Pappy
I agree, we did the same....however none of them ever showed up with a gun and shot us up:p If thats what they wanted they could do it with or without a carry permit.

The fact is, an armed citizen is a positive in society, the facts bear this out year after year as concealed carry states grow. I still refuse to levy an opinion on this issue....just making some points:p

Oh common Ken ... you know you're just itching to tell us what you think. :blah:

My view on this is different from all of you guys .... we don't have concealed carry permits up this way. Only people that can carry handguns legally are the police , security guards , and someone who is known to be at risk from someone( ie. if you have to go into hiding or change your identity).

[Master LTR450]

Im not allowed to carry a concealed weapon and in the state of NJ probably never will be allowed since we cant do anything in this state, still think its a good idea though. But i agree Pappy should voice his opinion because he obviously feels strongly about it one way or the other!!!

[Pappy]

well i cant really levy an honest opinion, i know people (some teachers) that shouldnt handle anything more dangerous then a wet sponge, others i would feel 100% confident in being armed around my children.

if you read the papers, your child has more chance of being in a sexual encounter with a teacher then they do of being shot by a teacher:ermm: that is just plain statistics!

we depend on teachers to gaurd our children against bad weather, fires, floods etc, yet we wouldnt allow them to arm themselves to defend thier own lives and those of our kids? 23 major school shootings since 2000 and not one purpitrated by a teacher....something to think about.

im perfectly fine with it i geuss, but i would insist on a very detailed background check, sych evaluation and intesive training. if they go through all that then they are as competant to carry a weapon as any LEO.

hell, we just had a local 6th grade teacher stab his wife to death....no gun, just hacked her to death.

[Pipeless416]

just something to throw out there as food for thought.. this was at the JUNIOR HIGH of my small town of 8000. this is not an uncommon occurance. http://www.nwherald.com/articles/2008/08/22/news/local/doc48af985243a50788305367.txt

[Master LTR450]

we depend on teachers to gaurd our children against bad weather, fires, floods etc, yet we wouldnt allow them to arm themselves to defend thier own lives and those of our kids? 23 major school shootings since 2000 and not one purpitrated by a teacher....something to think about.

im perfectly fine with it i geuss, but i would insist on a very detailed background check, sych evaluation and intesive training. if they go through all that then they are as competant to carry a weapon as any LEO.



Amen Pappy!!! Best way to look at it, Honestly the only way with how things are in the world these days!!!

Originally posted by Pappy

we depend on teachers to gaurd our children against bad weather, fires, floods etc, yet we wouldnt allow them to arm themselves to defend thier own lives and those of our kids? 23 major school shootings since 2000 and not one purpitrated by a teacher....something to think about.


Just because it hasn't happened before doens't mean it won't ever happen.




m perfectly fine with it i geuss, but i would insist on a very detailed background check, sych evaluation and intesive training. if they go through all that then they are as competant to carry a weapon as any LEO.

I will agree with you on this though.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by nofearrider1
Just because it hasn't happened before doens't mean it won't ever happen.


Very true, but the past shows that its unlikely and the present shows that indeed an armed and trained staff could quite possibly have an impact on future shootings. One teacher at the VT shooting was killed while holding a door shut........food for thought eh?

[<DRS>GPF]

im not totally against it.. but i think its another black mark on society and a step backwards.

this isnt the wild west and people should be taught to be responsible for the kids they bring into this world without guidance.

it would be better to have roaming security guards instead.

im more for birth control/sterilization of potential offenders with a history.

[protraxrptr17]

I think its a good idea. The kids that carry out these shootings at school are cowards, so if they know that they could be shot before they can hurt anybody else would probably stop SOME of them from trying. The ones who still want to try could possibly be taken out instead of just walking around uncontested. I agree that these kids kill themselves afterwards, but their greatest fear would be to get hit in the leg and then caught by the police. I think that alone would deter alot of these shootings.


Now, I don't think that just any teacher should be allowed to carry a gun. Only the ones that go thru the proper training and get licences should be allowed. There was a teacher at my school who was retired from the Seals, Rangers, or Delta Force or something. I often wonder what would have happened if some punk would have tried something with him around, even with no gun. If teachers like that were allowed to carry guns to school I would feel alot safer for my kids to be there.

[smr]

I think anyone who has a clean record should be allowed to carry a gun. I have two kids one 9 and the other 13. Both know how to load a 7.62 (mac 90) magazine and chamber a round. My 13 year old can leave the house alone at 5am and come home with fresh meat.


Unless something changes I believe we live in a time when America needs to arm itself and start taking out thugs that fill they don't have to work and can take anything they want. They are not afraid of going to jail. If everybody carried a gun then we could definately cut down on crime.

[chris46250r]

I think its a great idea. 20 years ago maybe it would be a little over kill, but in todays way of life I'm all for it. I do agree that proper training and research should be done. If they cant pass all the required tests just how good of a teacher are they anyway? And something else, why is it nobody seems to think that the security guards could snap and start firing off rounds instead of just the teachers? Both are a big "what if" but if we all live our lives under the "what if" rules we are all headed for failure anyway.

[Warnerade]

My old middle school math teacher brought a gun to school and flipped out on his students in the middle of the day....no one was shot, but it still happened.

Everyone pointing a finger at all us "crazy *** kids" need to take a good look at all the middle aged lunatics out there as well. There is just as many of them as us.

I vote no, absolutely not.

[toby400ex]

Maybe, only if the teacher goes through a safety course atleast and keeps it locked in a convenient area in case something happens. It's terrible to think a teacher even needs to carry a weapon to SCHOOL....We're talking about weapons training and guns for teachers at SCHOOL, not Prison wtf has the world come too?:(

[Pappy]

Originally posted by toby400ex
and keeps it locked in a convenient area in case something happens.

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.....


Thats a phrase I live by

[Warnerade]

if anything, have the gun be locked in a case in each classroom monitored by a sensor. As soon as the case is touched/opened/kicked/breathed on...an alarm in the office should go off. That way if the teacher does actually need it, other people outside of the class room will know about it immediately.

I am still against it though, but if worst comes to worst...

[<DRS>GPF]

Originally posted by toby400ex
It's terrible to think a teacher even needs to carry a weapon to SCHOOL....We're talking about weapons training and guns for teachers at SCHOOL, not Prison wtf has the world come too?:(

or simply more appropriate punishments.

take a life, give a life..

it would clean the ranks, and set a definite tone..
no more gray area for decisions on a "moral" punishment, this is the proverbial "line in the sand".

[smr]

Originally posted by Pappy
When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.....


Thats a phrase I live by

I'm with you 100%

[Master LTR450]

Yeah its kinda funny how everyone thats sits there and says it a bad idea all say it for the same reason" what if the teacher snaps". You need to stop looking at the little picture and open your eyes. Yes there is a chance the teacher may snap, but cant anybody snap?? I really dont see them just saying ok your a teacher heres a gun for your classroom!! Lets just say you go to a school with 10 class rooms, 5 kids go in with ak-47's and the teachers have no guns. more than likely they are all dead. So put guns in half the classroms and more then likely half of them would walk away ALIVE!!! Just like someone said earlier you cant live your life by the "What if". And Pappy thats one of the best phrases i have ever heard!!

[<DRS>GPF]

Originally posted by Master LTR450
Just like someone said earlier you cant live your life by the "What if".


but its a "what if" thats putting the guns in a teachers hand.

darned if you do, darned if you dont.


as implied, living in a "what if" world isnt something we can continue doing.
dealing with problems after they become problems is the wrong direction.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by <DRS>GPF
but its a "what if" thats putting the guns in a teachers hand.

darned if you do, darned if you dont.


as implied, living in a "what if" world isnt something we can continue doing.
dealing with problems after they become problems is the wrong direction.

The "what if" is a growing and disturbing trend, not just hypothetical rhetoric regarding this issue. Not only in urban/city areas, but also rural areas our schools are under siege to the criminal. How some of our kids and teachers even go to some schools is beyond me, no choice I geuss.

The CCW is not the only answer, but in regards to the second half of your post.....

When we as law abiding citizens take the law into our own hands and become proactive in routing out the criminal element from our society, our own justice system turns on us and we become the criminal and the prosecuted. We are forced by legalities into a defensive only society and allow criminals to prey upon us.

I for one would like nothing better but to flat out attack certain elements of our society based on what they are doing to our country, but the second I act on that feeling I am going to jail and loose everything I have worked for. Now at some point we will act on our feelings with disregard for our personal interests, this is exactly what our forefathers did when we became a seperatist nation and went to war with England and became our own country. While there is no country to fight, there is a growing scurge that IMO is growing larger everyday....who says its time to take the next step is anyones geuss, surely it wont be our money influenced leadership! Ummm....its our poor leadership that needs to go!

Sorry, kind of went off track there:p

[Warnerade]

Originally posted by Master LTR450
Yeah its kinda funny how everyone thats sits there and says it a bad idea all say it for the same reason" what if the teacher snaps". You need to stop looking at the little picture and open your eyes. Yes there is a chance the teacher may snap, but cant anybody snap?? I really dont see them just saying ok your a teacher heres a gun for your classroom!! Lets just say you go to a school with 10 class rooms, 5 kids go in with ak-47's and the teachers have no guns. more than likely they are all dead. So put guns in half the classroms and more then likely half of them would walk away ALIVE!!! Just like someone said earlier you cant live your life by the "What if". And Pappy thats one of the best phrases i have ever heard!! As far as I'm concerned a teacher has just as much of a chance to snap as a student...why put a gun in the hands of someone just as likely to do what anyone else can do?

When it comes to a teacher shooting, snapping, going off...there is no "what if"...I've seen it happen with both a student and a kid...plain and simple a gun does not belong in school, period.

Whats to stop a said "gang" from attacking a teacher and taking the gun we gave him the right to have? absolutely nothing but his consious. (sp?)

[extremeblastr]

nothing about that was off track you just worked your way back to the source of the problem, our dumb **** government is the reason we have reached this point, we need people who can make the right decision not the one that pays more, i believe there is no reason why a properly trained teacher shouldn't carry a weapon as i would rather chances of a teacher snappin, then the emo kid with 72 piercings in his nose and scars on his arm from cuttin himself snappin and me not having any protection, granted i'll be going to college next year but that brings in VT, i think that anybody who is entirely against this idea is a very naive individual and needs to open their eyes as to whats goin on in the world today, if society doesn't put their foot down soon their isn't going to be anywhere they can put it without gettin the cuffs.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Warnerade
As far as I'm concerned a teacher has just as much of a chance to snap as a student...why put a gun in the hands of someone just as likely to do what anyone else can do?

Does a teacher not have the same rights tos elf defense as any other person? And being that the trend is school violence and mass shootings, shouldnt all options be viewed?


Originally posted by Warnerade
When it comes to a teacher shooting, snapping, going off...there is no "what if"...I've seen it happen with both a student and a kid...plain and simple a gun does not belong in school, period.

So your one instance resulting in no actual action is just cause for the rest of the country?


Originally posted by Warnerade
Whats to stop a said "gang" from attacking a teacher and taking the gun we gave him the right to have? absolutely nothing but his consious. (sp?)

The same risk is applied to all CCW holders and police officers, both of which have a very very good record of not being disarmed. A trained CCW holder will have eliminated a threat, and a gun grab is a lethal threat that will be dealt with. Sorry if johnny scumbag doesnt understand that trying to take a weapon is grounds for his dismisal.....permanently

[Warnerade]

Originally posted by Pappy
So your one instance resulting in no actual action is just cause for the rest of the country? Yes, because I know that that instant in my school is not the first or the last time a teacher will react that way. It is not a "what if" if it actually happens.

Wanna know why it resulted in no actual action?

A cop was walking by outside into the main entrance and saw through the window what was going on.

minutes away may be right, but I'll take my chances.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Warnerade
Yes, because I know that that instant in my school is not the first or the last time a teacher will react that way. It is not a "what if" if it actually happens.

Wanna know why it resulted in no actual action?

A cop was walking by outside into the main entrance and saw through the window what was going on.

minutes away may be right, but I'll take my chances.

So an armed person kept violence from occuring...that made my day:p

You may take your chances, the majority of us prefer to up the odds in our favor.

[MOFO]

Originally posted by Pappy
I
The fact is, an armed citizen is a positive in society, the facts bear this out year after year

Yep!

The only phrase I commonly say which is similiar to above... "An armed society is a SAFE society" I know not one person can prove that wrong, so don't waste your time. :devil:

If someone wants to "go off the deep end" there are other tools they can use. Don't blame the tool, blame the a-hole using the tool!!!!! :grr:

[MOFO]

Originally posted by Warnerade
As far as I'm concerned a teacher has just as much of a chance to snap as a student...why put a gun in the hands of someone just as likely to do what anyone else can do?





Sooooo.... do you propose that all guns should be banned because ANYONE could snap at ANY moment?

[MOFO]

Originally posted by Warnerade


When it comes to a teacher shooting, snapping, going off...there is no "what if"...I've seen it happen with both a student and a kid...plain and simple a gun does not belong in school, period.



This logic only applies to LAW ABIDING citizens. If someone wakes up and decides to go into a school and open fire, do you really think they will consider the gun laws???

[Master LTR450]

Ok warner so you had a teacher snap. So you may have just been that "what if". But like i said before and its just like this with anything in life you have to take the good with the bad. Now think there are how many teachers to how many kids?? I think there is a little better chance of having these wacky *** kids snapping then that teacher!!

And whos to say that day you call your local cops for something they dont show up to your house having a horrible day and just snap?? What makes cops any different?? they are only humans as well. Ohh wait lets see its called most people have morales and self control!!!! But not those kids that are going to school with guns for 1 reason.

Originally posted by Pappy
So an armed person kept violence from occuring...that made my day:p



Execpt that police officer is supposed to be armed, a teacher is not. A teacher is there to teach, not to protect the law.
My opinion is that teachers should not have guns, BUT there should be armed secruity gaurds/police in a school. My school used to have unarmed secruity guards, but after the 10 or so bomb scares we had, a police officer would be in the school at all time's, which is a good idea.

I grew up/live in NJ, where you can't have a CCW, so I'm rarely around guns, unlike most of the members on this board. My family owns guns, and we shoot here and there, so I'm not anti-gun, I just dont think that guns should be in school at all, exepct for LEO's.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by nofearrider1
Execpt that police officer is supposed to be armed, a teacher is not. A teacher is there to teach, not to protect the law.


In our constitution, all citizens have the right to bear arms, not just LEO's. Although I do agree that with regards to schools we would have to be on another level if teachers were allowed to be armed.

And a citizen carries for protection, not to enforce the law. When a weapon is deployed, it should be in a life threatening situation which is what brought this issue to light.

There is no wrong opinion on this issue, just remember that when everyone replies

[Warnerade]

Originally posted by nofearrider1
Execpt that police officer is supposed to be armed, a teacher is not. A teacher is there to teach, not to protect the law.
My opinion is that teachers should not have guns, BUT there should be armed secruity gaurds/police in a school. My school used to have unarmed secruity guards, but after the 10 or so bomb scares we had, a police officer would be in the school at all time's, which is a good idea. thank you.

and mofo...Sooooo.... do you propose that all guns should be banned because ANYONE could snap at ANY moment?

No, all guns should no be abnned, I know people that carry them...im not against a teacher having them outside of a school, but I'm against people having them in school and it being "ok"

It is a work environment for the teachers...guns have no place in the work environment. Ask anyone that works in the Jeep factory up in Toledo, there was a shooting there not too long ago also.

[MOFO]

Originally posted by Warnerade
thank you.

and mofo...Sooooo.... do you propose that all guns should be banned because ANYONE could snap at ANY moment?

No, all guns should no be abnned, I know people that carry them...im not against a teacher having them outside of a school, but I'm against people having them in school and it being "ok"

It is a work environment for the teachers...guns have no place in the work environment. Ask anyone that works in the Jeep factory up in Toledo, there was a shooting there not too long ago also.

The shooting at the Jeep factory.... what are the details? I have not heard about that.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Warnerade


It is a work environment for the teachers...guns have no place in the work environment. Ask anyone that works in the Jeep factory up in Toledo, there was a shooting there not too long ago also.

Was the shooter a CCW holder or did he enter the work area illegally carrying a weapon and commited a criminal act? You cant paint CCW with criminals.....or mentally unstable people that disregard the law!


Thursday, February 03, 2005
1/26/05 Toledo Ohio Jeep Factory Worker Shoots 3 Supervisors; Kills Self
At a Toledo, OH Jeep plant, an employee shot three supervisors on January 26th. Myles Meyers, 54, walked in the plant about 8:45 pm with a double barreled shotgun and demanded to see his supervisors. He pointed the gun at a co-worker and ordered her to call the targets of his rage. He killed one supervisor and wounded two others before shooting himself in the head. He had recently been put on an in-house three day suspension for a minor infraction. However, the day before, he met with management and representatives from the union to discuss work quality issues. The meeting went reportedly well but Meyers did not show up on time for his next shift. He later appeared with the weapon, seeking out his supervisors. Once the police found his body, they needed to bring in a bomb squad after finding wires protruding from underneath his clothes. This was later discovered to be from a sling he fashioned to hide the 20-gauge under this jacket.

[MOFO]

Originally posted by Pappy
Was the shooter a CCW holder or did he enter the work area illegally carrying a weapon and commited a criminal act? You cant paint CCW with criminals.....or mentally unstable people that disregard the law!


Thursday, February 03, 2005
1/26/05 Toledo Ohio Jeep Factory Worker Shoots 3 Supervisors; Kills Self
At a Toledo, OH Jeep plant, an employee shot three supervisors on January 26th. Myles Meyers, 54, walked in the plant about 8:45 pm with a double barreled shotgun and demanded to see his supervisors. He pointed the gun at a co-worker and ordered her to call the targets of his rage. He killed one supervisor and wounded two others before shooting himself in the head. He had recently been put on an in-house three day suspension for a minor infraction. However, the day before, he met with management and representatives from the union to discuss work quality issues. The meeting went reportedly well but Meyers did not show up on time for his next shift. He later appeared with the weapon, seeking out his supervisors. Once the police found his body, they needed to bring in a bomb squad after finding wires protruding from underneath his clothes. This was later discovered to be from a sling he fashioned to hide the 20-gauge under this jacket.

Thanks for the info Pappy - it further supports my opinion. I view this as a preventable disaster if someone did have a CCW and ended the situation before anyone was shot...

[Warnerade]

ok so that was a bad example :p

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Warnerade
ok so that was a bad example :p

Sadly, many people walk away from a story like that with a bad opinion of firearms and those that use them in legal manners. They look no further into the story to see he was a criminal(by taking the firearm to an area where they are prohibited) committed murder (criminal act) and then commited suicide(proof he had mental issues on top of cold blooded murder)

I sure as hell wouldnt want to be defenseless in a situation like that....and sadly they occur more frequently every year. Our leaders and those with backing force feed the public that it is the guns fault!!! Yet when someone stabs someone to death they fail to blame the knife.

A firearm is a tool, nothing more, nothing less.

[Warnerade]

I agree...and to mofos comment, im not one of the types to blame the gun for killing or injuries or anything of the sort. So dont think I'm trying to prove that opinion.

I still am against one int he work place though. If you have a really bad day at work, someone says the wrong thing to you...you get called a dimwit by your boss, something going wrong at home...if your stressed at work the wrong thing may tip you over the edge and if their's a gun readily available...I would say theres a better chance of shooting up your bosses on the spot rather than going home and planning to the next day.

Same goes with a teacher

[BlaineKaiser450]

well said pappy

[ZeroLogic]

Teachers are ment to teach, not to protect. Police and security guards are ment to protect and enforce the law. If you want a safe school or work environment, have armed security guards. At my old high school, my senior year we had ex police that quit the force to come to the school and protect us. Teachers should teach and security guards should protect the students and teachers.

Not sure if that made much sense hopefully ya'll get my point.:p

[Master LTR450]

I still am against one int he work place though. If you have a really bad day at work, someone says the wrong thing to you...you get called a dimwit by your boss, something going wrong at home...if your stressed at work the wrong thing may tip you over the edge and if their's a gun readily available...I would say theres a better chance of shooting up your bosses on the spot rather than going home and planning to the next day.

Do you know any cops or any type of LEO?? Probably one of the most stressful jobs there is, and they are armed. You dont read in the papers about a LEO going into work and shooting their bosses?? Thats because if theyre going to then they have more then just stress on them usually. Its called Mental. Thats why a pysch test should be First

Ok for all that say this is a horrible idea, have you ever heard of Joel Myrick???

http://www.davekopel.com/2a/othwr/principal&gun.htm

What would have been of this without him??

[Quad18star]

Originally posted by ZeroLogic
Teachers are ment to teach, not to protect. Police and security guards are ment to protect and enforce the law. If you want a safe school or work environment, have armed security guards. At my old high school, my senior year we had ex police that quit the force to come to the school and protect us. Teachers should teach and security guards should protect the students and teachers.

Not sure if that made much sense hopefully ya'll get my point.:p

That's my view on things also.

Teachers -----> Teach

Security -------> Secure

;)

[Warnerade]

I didnt read the story..but it sounds like a principle had a gun and saved kids?

If thats the case...this can go back to a comment made to me. Your letting one situation justify allowing teachers to have guns. Versus my situation where a teacher brought a gun to class and went postal. I would be willing to bet a teacher going off on a class with a gun has happened a LOT more than a principal saving his class because he has a gun.

This can go back and fourth all day...

[<DRS>GPF]

Originally posted by Pappy
Sadly, many people walk away from a story like that with a bad opinion of firearms and those that use them in legal manners. They look no further into the story to see he was a criminal(by taking the firearm to an area where they are prohibited) committed murder (criminal act) and then commited suicide(proof he had mental issues on top of cold blooded murder)

perhaps proof that some who can still legally buy firearms, dont need them.
sadly, news stories on these incidents rarely ever point out the the persons legal status, as to whether they could legally own the firearms.. too bad, id love to see the statistics, keeping in mind that it doesnt mean theyve actually bought the firearms legally.


Originally posted by Pappy

I sure as hell wouldnt want to be defenseless in a situation like that....and sadly they occur more frequently every year. Our leaders and those with backing force feed the public that it is the guns fault!!! Yet when someone stabs someone to death they fail to blame the knife.

A firearm is a tool, nothing more, nothing less.

but a knife cant be turned on a crowd..


its no secret, im not a fan of the "everyone has the right to own firearms" theory. but i also must concede that the genie is out and who can be a judge of who's capable of being responsible.

i do agree that most if not all CCW states dont just hand out permits to carry, so im not totally against a well trained responsible person packin' heat conservatively.(dont go walking around guns akimbo, threatening anyone that nears your space)

my mind goes to that wacko lady in texas skulking about with a loaded revolver because a danish reporter was at the corner of her lawn. the ignorant woman didnt see the news crews???

this is the impression the US portrays to the world. gun nuts that will shoot first ask later if you so much as stroll across the lawn.

whats next, kindergartener sized flak jackets?

currently our punishments dont fit the crimes, which is where id start.
lousy no-good legislators have little of the common mans worries on this, as theyre escorted about by well armed guards.
so it comes down to the individual to take the chance.

do you trust your neighbors? teachers? i know some of each that id be wary of, thus my family is trained and know enough to defend our home and those around me arent ignorant of my families capabilities.
alternatively though, ive shadowed a couple of doors in my time to bring and end to a quarrel, that others in todays world wouldve likely tried to settle by guns.
steal from me and mine and ill let you know what youve done and expect something in return. no cops are necessary unless you want to go there.

in any case, its a sad world weve made for our children, especially if we know the right roads but dont take them.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Warnerade
I agree...and to mofos comment, im not one of the types to blame the gun for killing or injuries or anything of the sort. So dont think I'm trying to prove that opinion.

I still am against one int he work place though. If you have a really bad day at work, someone says the wrong thing to you...you get called a dimwit by your boss, something going wrong at home...if your stressed at work the wrong thing may tip you over the edge and if their's a gun readily available...I would say theres a better chance of shooting up your bosses on the spot rather than going home and planning to the next day.

Same goes with a teacher

The thing I am not sure about with your point is this....

If someone goes through the entire process of becoming legally able to carry a concealed weapon, the chances of things going wrong as it releates to your point or even at a school are very slim, so much so that the odds already known will outweigh any dangers that arent already apparent and occuring now! (with the exception of my feelings of a higher level of training needed to work around young adults and children)

My sidearm already has saved me from an attack at work, 4 armed men versus me, they did not expect an armed response to their aggresion. Thankfully they retreated and I did not have to kill them, but I have no doubt they would have shot me if I wasnt armed. This was broad daylight infront of other employees and customers no less! Up to that point, no other employee even knew I was armed, only my employer. I thank god everyday that I had my sidearm and was in a position to have a slight advantage over them, if not I am sure I would be dead, no if's ands or butts.


As far as the whole teachers teach thing...thats cool, lets raise taxes a few percent to cover the cost of having armed gaurds at every school in teh country. I see that as the only alternative to offer some solice to security in todays schools(kind of sounds overkill but wild uh..lol)

[Master LTR450]

OK something to think about real quick in 1997-1998 6000 students were caught with guns in school. Which isnt really that much considering theres how many kids??

2007 5.2% of students brought a gun to school at least once every 30 days!!!! Dont know what that would be but im willing to bet it would be ALOT more then 6000.


As far as the whole teachers teach thing...thats cool, lets raise taxes a few percent to cover the cost of having armed gaurds at every school in teh country. I see that as the only alternative to offer some solice to security in todays schools(kind of sounds overkill but wild uh..lol)

Another good point thanks for reminding me pappy. MOST of the schools these days dont even have enough money to buy newer school books so where are they going to get the money to pay for a Armed guard or police officer?

[Pappy]

Originally posted by <DRS>GPF


but a knife cant be turned on a crowd..




Man kills 8 children with knife (http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/09/world/09JAPA.html?ex=1219896000&en=5dadf0851ca93242&ei=5070)
Man beheads bus passenger (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7535840.stm)
Man kills 6 with knife (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-02/22/content_418220.htm)
man kills 7 with knife (http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jun/09/world/fg-stab9)

Just a few I grabbed to show that a knife weilding person can kill more then one.....granted many of these are outside the US, but it was a quick search to prove the point.

Infact, many knife attacks have left more dead then several of our nations school shootings

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Master LTR450


Ok for all that say this is a horrible idea, have you ever heard of Joel Myrick???

http://www.davekopel.com/2a/othwr/principal&gun.htm

What would have been of this without him??

An excellent story to affirm my point that for many of us, breaking the law in the name of freedom and peace is a daily occurance. For this principal, his law breaking saved lives and if he could have reached his weapon sooner may have saved a few of those killed.

[Quad18star]

I must say , that bus beheading was something else . :ermm:

But even if the victim did have a gun or if the passengers had a gun , there's nothing that could have been done. The first stab wound killed the victim as it went right into his heart. It was an attack at 2 AM when most every passenger on the bus was asleep and didn't know what was happening.

This was an unprevoked attack by a Chinese immigrant that had no past convictions or criminal record . In fact the guy worked various jobs .. all of which his employers say he was an outstanding employee ... and he did volunteer work for a church ... again the minister said he was a quiet yet very good worker .

He simply snapped , for unknown reasons .... his family had no idea he had mental problems , his wife didn't even know it. Attacked and killed a guy that was sleeping and listening to music ... that had never met him before and wasn't even sitting beside him on the bus. :huh

[Pappy]

greg, I bet an armed citizzen on that bus could have stopped the beheading and gutting:ermm: And that would have sent mr chinese immigrant snap-fu where he belonged...to hell

[Warnerade]

Originally posted by Pappy
The thing I am not sure about with your point is this....

If someone goes through the entire process of becoming legally able to carry a concealed weapon, the chances of things going wrong as it releates to your point or even at a school are very slim, so much so that the odds already known will outweigh any dangers that arent already apparent and occuring now! (with the exception of my feelings of a higher level of training needed to work around young adults and children)

My sidearm already has saved me from an attack at work, 4 armed men versus me, they did not expect an armed response to their aggresion. Thankfully they retreated and I did not have to kill them, but I have no doubt they would have shot me if I wasnt armed. This was broad daylight infront of other employees and customers no less! Up to that point, no other employee even knew I was armed, only my employer. I thank god everyday that I had my sidearm and was in a position to have a slight advantage over them, if not I am sure I would be dead, no if's ands or butts.


As far as the whole teachers teach thing...thats cool, lets raise taxes a few percent to cover the cost of having armed gaurds at every school in teh country. I see that as the only alternative to offer some solice to security in todays schools(kind of sounds overkill but wild uh..lol) And I can see your point as how you would be for a trained person having a gun whenever and wherever they need. I'm not gonna lie...I know there are plenty of people out there that are trustworthy enough with a gun. Just from talking with you on this forum for the past 6 years I can tell your one of those even before I heard that story.

Something I take into consideration however is that you had an instance where it saved your life, obviously your going to have your strong opinion on it...and thats completely understandable and I am in no way saying your wrong. Say that never happened though, would your opinion on this be so strong on this or would you be more leniant to an opinion that goes against it?

Say someone else exactly like you, same morals...got into an incident where a licensed gun holder lost it, in the work place...and wounded you, a loved one, a friend, or even a co-worker?

I beleive that a topic like this comes down to what kind of experiences you've been involved with, around and what not...

[Quad18star]

Guns aren't as much of an issue in schools around here ... but if they were , I wouldn't mind paying an extra 1 or 2% tax to be sure that security are in schools .

Most handgun related murders here are between gangs ... they shoot eachother up and knock off their own useless kind . :p

[ricksmx865]

Personally i think this is the worst case senario

Ill bring up some other issues as well

As many, many others have said a TRAINED security guard should be on school property before any teacher should carry a weapon

Next, Training for a teacher to carry a weapon, for the intended purpose, (protection in this case of themself, and students) the training has to be more extensive than any other CCW

My father has been a state police officer for over 25yrs and STILL HAS TO go shoot EVERY 3 MONTHS ( not wants too, not needs to, has to)

Allong with this (since we are talking about kids) a course in "force continuum" should be taken (fighting force with force)

ex. A teacher wouldnt draw a gun for a fist fight only, only when he or she believes seriously bodily injury may occur.


And Since we are all talking about the "what if's"

what if they actually allowed teachers to have guns at school?
who is going to pay for the training, and the repeated training?
who is going to pay for the ammo for the training?
who is going to pay for the weapons themselfs?

Next

Lets say they let teachers have guns in school (providing all that training and such)

Now are we gonna let students who are over the age of 18 and have all the proper training ect to carry guns at school? you can bet your *** that if i was in a school that was so bad teachers got guns, i'd be arguing my right to bear arms and protect myself as well!


I do agree things need to be done about this matter, however i believe teachers with guns is the last alternative, TRAINED police officers or security guards would be a far better option, and since they should already be trained..... cheaper too

just some food for thought

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Warnerade
And I can see your point as how you would be for a trained person having a gun whenever and wherever they need. I'm not gonna lie...I know there are plenty of people out there that are trustworthy enough with a gun. Just from talking with you on this forum for the past 6 years I can tell your one of those even before I heard that story.

Something I take into consideration however is that you had an instance where it saved your life, obviously your going to have your strong opinion on it...and thats completely understandable and I am in no way saying your wrong. Say that never happened though, would your opinion on this be so strong on this or would you be more leniant to an opinion that goes against it?

Say someone else exactly like you, same morals...got into an incident where a licensed gun holder lost it, in the work place...and wounded you, a loved one, a friend, or even a co-worker?

I beleive that a topic like this comes down to what kind of experiences you've been involved with, around and what not...

Very well stated!

That wasnt the first or last time my weapon has been brought to bear to stop an assault or trouble, and I concur wholeheartedly that we are shaped by our lives and each one of us is different. The complication as I see it is that by having the freedoms we enjoy, those differences also help tear us apart due to fear and in most cases, complete misunderstanding. Look at Greg, he doesnt have a choice, just an opinion, Canadian law prevents him from all of this other then his input(no offense Greg, just using you ...lol)

I visit a few CCw forums and i rarely post. Some of the people on those sites just look like complete ironheads who cant wait to foil mr burglar at 7/11:rolleyes: Anyone who has been around shootings, and dead human beings from shootings wants as little to do with them as possible. My view is that I want to avoid me or my family being the dead subject in any scenario:p If that means I have to use deadly force you can bet your boots I will and not loose a seconds sleep on it....

I also train. I train to not put myself in a position to have to deal with this stuff, but it does happen when you least expect it. I avoid bad areas when and where I can, I visist areas known to be bad at hours that may have the bad element underground, and I am ever observant to my surroundings. Funny thing about being armed and truly in a self defense mode is that you set in motion a natural safety zone and you have hightened awareness. This is where I would have my biggest negative on teachers with weapons, you can not have the best of both worlds all the time and being consumed by teaching and the utter chaos schools tend to bring to them, it would take lots and lots of training for our teachers to be able to handle scenarios that for some are daily occurances. Im no expert on that subject, just an observation.

Who knows what the outcome will be in texas, you can bet proponents and those against it are watching them like a hawk!

[<DRS>GPF]

Originally posted by Pappy
Man kills 8 children with knife (http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/09/world/09JAPA.html?ex=1219896000&en=5dadf0851ca93242&ei=5070)
Man beheads bus passenger (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7535840.stm)
Man kills 6 with knife (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-02/22/content_418220.htm)
man kills 7 with knife (http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jun/09/world/fg-stab9)

Just a few I grabbed to show that a knife weilding person can kill more then one.....granted many of these are outside the US, but it was a quick search to prove the point.


ok... so yes it can if you pick the perfectly defensless crowds..(there'll always be one somewhere like there will always be a sicko to find it)

but with the exception of 1, the criminals couldve used a golf club and get about as many victims.. children and a defenseless transit mass.
imagine what those minds would have done with a weapon that could go beyond an arms reach.. we're still talking about sick people, just ones that didnt have a gun.

there are surely far more incidents with a single firearm harming greater numbers.. (and before someone says it, the car analogy is flawed as well..)


example/storytime: we have a festival here this very weekend and in the years its been going on, there's been 1 attempted robbery and 1 assault(with a knife).

both of the perpetrators were caught by the crowd and it was to their benefit that the cops were a minute away. i almost felt for the idiot that tried to steal the money, as i was sure he'd never walk again.. i believe the guy with a knife was taken care of via a kids baseball bat that a nearby dad was holding. too bad for his arm.

this isnt an isolated incident, you just never hear about them.
ther was something about some kook and a sword a while back.. the crowd stopped him then.

my point, when those who can dont, then those who do will. (i know ive heard that somewhere..)

i agree with you 100% its not the weapon, its the people.
its time people stop thinking of just themselves and learn to live with one another.

draw the line in the sand and stick to it.. you murder, you die. then spend the wasted taxdollars currently being used for public defense of the scourge on parenting skills education and assistance.

treat the disease, not the symptoms

[Pappy]

Originally posted by <DRS>GPF
ok... so yes it can if you pick the perfectly defensless crowds..(there'll always be one somewhere like there will always be a sicko to find it)



I did not have to pick the victims, the sicko did and always does! You dont hear of many nut jobs walking into a gun store and trying to gun people down:p (ofcourse they do crazy **** so I wouldnt be surprised if it had happened..lol)

[<DRS>GPF]

Originally posted by Pappy
I did not have to pick the victims, the sicko did and always does! You dont hear of many nut jobs walking into a gun store and trying to gun people down:p (ofcourse they do crazy **** so I wouldnt be surprised if it had happened..lol)


yup... theres always one in the crowd..

http://www.legallyarmed.com/gun_store_shooting.htm


lol..
http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index.php/42e23aa3/5f08d126


best yet..
http://www.snopes.com/crime/dumdum/gunshop.asp

[Warnerade]

Originally posted by Pappy
Very well stated! took me 6 damn years to get your approval on a rant.

time to move onto another forum haha

[Pappy]

LOL..the knife robbing a gun store ...geez:p

I walked into one our local gun stores last week, and they do not allow open carry, so i just flipped my shirt over my pistol and walked in. As i was chatting with all 3 employees(only 3 in teh store) we got into the conversation of robbery etc.

The store owner stated he kept a gun at the edge of the door to his office where he spends most of his time, the other employee is a LEO who works PT for fun and was unarmed (said he gets tired of carrying) and teh 3rd guy claimed he was the main floor associate and he was armed. He pulled up his shirt displaying a kimber that was not cocked and locked. (the 1911 handgun was designed to be carryied cocked and lcoked and is super fast to bring into action when needed) He went on to tell me that he doesnt even carry one in the chamber!!!!!

So I said to teh 3 men, "Well, it looks like you guys have it covered pretty well if something happens, unless all 3 of you are standing here and an armed man pulls a weapon that is ready to go as soon as it clears the holster!"

The owner chuckled and said yeah, but that seldom happens.....thats when I slide up my shirt and showed him my gun:devil: To say they felt like complete asses was an understatment. I would geuss that the floor asscoiate will now carry hot, the officer may actually carry when there and the owner will be chatting with both of them as they just let someone they dont know get the drop on them:ermm: It happens that fast, and for the guy not carrying hot, he probably shouldnt be carrying at all.

[csr250r]

Stupid idea. Guns belong no place in school, i dont give a dam how safe you think your locked desk is. In all honesty i dont think that many teachers at our school would be good enough with a gun to stop a threat in time anyways. I think this is another case of overprotective parents.

Build the donut shop closer to the school thats your best bet, ill take my chances with the crazy kids than know that there is a gun in the classroom.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by csr250r
Stupid idea. Guns belong no place in school, i dont give a dam how safe you think your locked desk is. In all honesty i dont think that many teachers at our school would be good enough with a gun to stop a threat in time anyways. I think this is another case of overprotective parents.

Build the donut shop closer to the school thats your best bet, ill take my chances with the crazy kids than know that there is a gun in the classroom.

the intriguing part.......the actual poll numbers disagree with you! Thats a big surprise to me

[Quad18star]

Originally posted by Pappy
greg, I bet an armed citizzen on that bus could have stopped the beheading and gutting:ermm: And that would have sent mr chinese immigrant snap-fu where he belonged...to hell

From what I've read .... all the passengers bolted from the bus , half dazed thinking there was a fire on the bus. When they got outside and someone mentioned what exactly was going on , 3 men tried entering the bus but by that time ( matter of a minute or 2) , the guy had already beheaded the other.

When the murderer appeared in court and was given the opportunity to say something , all he said was " Please Kill Me" .

Now usually I'm all for killing the killer ..... but this guy is wanting to die ..... so I don't mind him being in jail for the rest of his life in a 5x8 cell having to think about what he did , day in and day out .

If a passenger would have killed him , he would have gotten exactly what he was wishing for .... now he's getting exactly what he doesn't want ... the chance to live ... hopefully until he's 100.

[csr250r]

I was surprised when i saw those numbers. Maybe my opinion differs because im still in school. But honestly if a kid pulls out a semi auto pistol or a mac 10 in class do you think that teacher is going to have time to unlock the storage place for the gun and stop him, especially if the kid knows that the gun is in the classroom he will take out the biggest threat first then you have a hostage situation, guns have no place in school at all, and i forsee only problems that they create in school.

[MOFO]

Originally posted by csr250r
I was surprised when i saw those numbers. Maybe my opinion differs because im still in school. But honestly if a kid pulls out a semi auto pistol or a mac 10 in class do you think that teacher is going to have time to unlock the storage place for the gun and stop him, especially if the kid knows that the gun is in the classroom he will take out the biggest threat first then you have a hostage situation, guns have no place in school at all, and i forsee only problems that they create in school.

If a teacher carry's, it should be on them and concealed - NOT in their desk or locked up somewhere.

If you are in class, would you rather have every unarmed (teacher) or would you rather have your teacher armed (concealed) when that wacko pulls out a gun?

Option A: You are all sitting ducks
Option B: You have a good chance of leaving that room alive

[csr250r]

Originally posted by MOFO
If a teacher carry's, it should be on them and concealed - NOT in their desk or locked up somewhere.

If you are in class, would you rather have every unarmed (teacher) or would you rather have your teacher armed (concealed) when that wacko pulls out a gun?

Option A: You are all sitting ducks
Option B: You have a good chance of leaving that room alive

Ha the kid would probably pull his out when the teacher has their back turned and pop them, then they got two guns and a room full of kids.... think about it. Guns have no place in school, i said it ounce ill say it again, your BEST bet is to build the donut shop closer to the school.

[MOFO]

Originally posted by csr250r
Ha the kid would probably pull his out when the teacher has their back turned and pop them, then they got two guns and a room full of kids.... think about it. Guns have no place in school, i said it ounce ill say it again, you BEST bet is to build the donut shop closer to the school.

You are going down the road of "what if's..."

[Master LTR450]

This is the wrong thing to say but ok so he executes the classroom and then moves to the next without a gun either and executes all of them and so on..... but wait what if in the next room over theres a gun as well and hes the one that executed!!!! Again you have got to take the bad with the good!!! Its just how life is

[csr250r]

LTR i see your point, IMO a metal detector at the enterance is a better solution, and MOFO i think my "what ifs" are not as far fetched as you think they are. if a kid is going to take that step to bring a gun to school he has probably ran it through his mind many times and he has a good idea of what is going to go down. but LTR if a kid is going classroom to classroom you would think someone would notice some ammo or something bulging on him i mean come on 20-30 to a class even if he is running a semi auto pistol and clips you would notice some bulge or something.

i just see guns in school causing more problems than they are solving.

[Master LTR450]

what??? see ammo bulging just start throwing clips in the ole book bag!!!! It only take a couple sec to switch them. Or they could walk in there like the trench coat mafia!!!:eek2:

[csr250r]

well if hes got tens of clips in his backpack then the metal detector should have no problem picking them up.... i dont see why you people would want cooky armed paranoid teachers from the city trying to play texas ranger.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by csr250r
LTR i see your point, IMO a metal detector at the enterance is a better solution, and MOFO i think my "what ifs" are not as far fetched as you think they are. if a kid is going to take that step to bring a gun to school he has probably ran it through his mind many times and he has a good idea of what is going to go down. but LTR if a kid is going classroom to classroom you would think someone would notice some ammo or something bulging on him i mean come on 20-30 to a class even if he is running a semi auto pistol and clips you would notice some bulge or something.

i just see guns in school causing more problems than they are solving.

It did not stop the killings at VT....the man had more ammo then the police and was out to kill more then just 33. 1 armed teacher in that situation could have stopped him possibly. For 33 people, the biggest what if happened and peopel couldnt do **** about it, teachers, students or police who spend alot of time getting things sorted out while people on the inside can and will put a halt to this **** if given the chance to defend themselves.

[Master LTR450]

Another thing about the metal detectors is what good are they really going to do?? if a kid is going to school with a gun knowing there is a metal detector then they are going there with all intentions of doing some damage so before he walks through that metal detector down goes whoever is supposed to be watching the metal detectors!!! Now with them down and out what good are the metal detectors??

And 1 armed teacher at the VT massacre would have stopped ALOT!!!! Think about it he walked from room to room just executing people. Like you said already Pappy one teacher killed holding the door shut!!! Well instead of holding the door shut he could have been waiting for it to open with his gun cocked and loaded ready to end the whole situation.

[cletusEX]

Originally posted by Pappy
It did not stop the killings at VT....the man had more ammo then the police and was out to kill more then just 33. 1 armed teacher in that situation could have stopped him possibly. For 33 people, the biggest what if happened and peopel couldnt do **** about it, teachers, students or police who spend alot of time getting things sorted out while people on the inside can and will put a halt to this **** if given the chance to defend themselves.

I rememeber reading that even a few students had legal carry permits in the state of VA but the university would not allow it. That is a little asinine in my opinion. Especially at a public university. I live in the state of Maryland, which pretty much excludes me from carrying a loaded weapon, or a weapon for that matter. That being said if I feel I might need it, it's not going to be very far away. Like a wise man once said "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by six." Acutally that might have been Pappy, I just keep using it!:D Got Glock?

[hardkoratvmxr]

yes teachers should be able to carry guns, all teachers NO! there are just some down right morons for teachers that should never be behind the barrel of a firearm.

Every teacher wishing to carry a gun must go through safety training and crisis training if they wish to carry a gun. But even if they do go throguh these classes the school board should hvae to permit that teacher and a through background check should be performed as well as a psychie evaluation.

Now this is if the school will permit a teacher to carry a gun and like i said before not all teachers should be allowed to carry guns only ones that can pass a background, drug, and psychie test. And then they should have the proper documentation stating that they have been through crisis and firearm safety training courses.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by cletusEX
I rememeber reading that even a few students had legal carry permits in the state of VA but the university would not allow it. That is a little asinine in my opinion. Especially at a public university. I live in the state of Maryland, which pretty much excludes me from carrying a loaded weapon, or a weapon for that matter. That being said if I feel I might need it, it's not going to be very far away. Like a wise man once said "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by six." Acutally that might have been Pappy, I just keep using it!:D Got Glock?

MD....what a joke:p

actually federal law prohibits firearms within 100 yards of any school i believe beyond that of LEO's

[cletusEX]

Originally posted by Pappy
MD....what a joke:p

actually federal law prohibits firearms within 100 yards of any school i believe beyond that of LEO's

Yeah it's sad. If there is a gun anywhere in the car loaded or not I have some explaining to do. But an explanation is less painful than a bullet wound.:p

[Pappy]

Originally posted by cletusEX
Yeah it's sad. If there is a gun anywhere in the car loaded or not I have some explaining to do. But an explanation is less painful than a bullet wound.:p

That was my line of thinking for many many years in MD....

Now I just throw on my sidearm and head off into the world:p Still get a few weird looks at Walmart but hey, them maryland people can shop in md as far as im concerned:devil:

[hardkoratvmxr]

Originally posted by Pappy
That was my line of thinking for many many years in MD....

Now I just throw on my sidearm and head off into the world:p Still get a few weird looks at Walmart but hey, them maryland people can shop in md as far as im concerned:devil:

this is why i am starting to like arizona more and more. open carry needs no permit as long as it is visible although concealed carry still needs a permit. it also makes me nervous knowing anyone can have a gun on them. there are some weirdos in this world but i feel safe knowing that if i got in a situation i will be able to defend myself

[chris46250r]

I dont think some of the people on here are looking at the whole picture. Yes, still have all the security guards you think are needed. Yes, still have metal detectors. This will weed out alot of the crap. But even some not all of the teachers with a gun would be better odds than what we have now. Some of you say that a killing in school could not be prevented by a teacher with a gun. You might be right but the teacher might bring the number of people killed down a little. I'm not saying I'm right and others are wrong, I'm not in school or even have any kids in school. Heres the way I like to look at it, guns are out there in and around our schools, I just think its better when you actually know some of the people that are carrying one. My stand on guns is I'd rather be caught with it than without it.

[bwamos]

Originally posted by Pappy
well i cant really levy an honest opinion, i know people (some teachers) that shouldnt handle anything more dangerous then a wet sponge, others i would feel 100% confident in being armed around my children.

My thoughts exactly. I work at a school in the afternoons, albeit an elementary school. Out of 30 or so teachers I'd trust about 25% of them w/ a gun on a firing range... and maybe 4 of them w/ a carry conceal...

And maybe 1 of them would have the cahonies to actually pull the trigger if the situation actually needed it.

Now if you were to give them police grade tasers and train them properly... now were talking.

Of course put people in desperate situations, and your usually supprised. The ones you think would crack, don't and the ones you think won't, do.

[wilkin250r]

Let's throw another twist on the whole debate, and the reason I'm against it.

EMTs and Police officers fall under "Duty to Rescue" laws. They are obligated to respond to an emergency situation, even if they are currently off-duty at the time. They HAVE to take action.


By putting guns into the hands of teachers, would we be placing them in a situation where they would HAVE to shoot? They would be legally obligated? And would there be reprisal or redress if a teacher failed to take action ? What if a teacher did NOT have a CCW and a weapon, and the worst happened? Would there still be recourse, under the claim that the situation would have been "preventable" if the teacher did indeed have a weapon?

Police officers and security guards know this when they sign up for the job, they also sign on for those obligations. By definition, it is their job to protect. A teacher's job is not to protect, it is to teach. I'm totally against forcing them into any type of protecting role.

You want security, you hire security.

No. If a teacher walks around with a gun to their side like a cop a kid taking a gun from them would be like stealing candy from a baby! If you can grab some ones butt before they see it coming you could grab a gun from some ones side easily. Only way to make sure a kid couldn't get the gun is to keep all the kids away from you. And if teachers had guns and some kid pulled out a gun who would have the gun out first? Teacher wouldn't see it coming at all. The kid would have his/her gun out pointed at the teacher and the teacher would be looking at the gun pointer at him/her they wouldn't even have their hand on the gun handle before they where going to get shot. A kid pulls out a gun out of no where in a class room, who's he going to point it at first? The teacher with the gun of course. Teacher grabs for the gun and 1 teacher down and the kid then has the class to his self like it happens now. Guns will change nothing except make it passable for kids to get a hold on teachers guns and to make it passable for raging teachers to shoot class mates. Guns would only come in handy if their is 2 or more teachers with guns in the class.

Don't matter if a teacher with a gun can kill a kid with a gun. The kid will have his out first.