Piston Coating

[BIGRED400]

Hey guys, I am thinking about a 11-1 JE standard bore piston and also coating it with this http://www.swaintech.com/fastbike.html claim it really helps out with keeping the heat where it needs to be, anyone done this??? Check out the 420hp bike on that link...Thanks alot
2002 400EX
K&N jetkit and filter with Outerwears
White-Bro.s E-series
Renthal bars and 14 t sprocket
Motion-Pro Twist

2002 250EX bone stock

[bmw500hp]

I am thinking of Nikasil (spelling???) when going to 440 and while she's tore down maybe Jet-Hot for the header. But the piston skirting poly coat sounds interesting.....like to see some mid/long term wear statistics on swains and Nikasils stuff..

[Dave400ex]

HP Coatings (http://www.hpcoatings.com) also has a coating they will put on your Piston. I thought about having that done.

[EricB]

yeah a friend of mine did computer work for this coating shop. he also used to be a big time ford mechanic, anyhow he got some of this cryotreating done to some computer heatsyncs and it lowered the temp like 10c or something. they coat pistons and headers with it. it's supoosed to make pistons last a lot longer. hmm i could get it done to my piston for free...maybe i should do it!

[Dave400ex]

Well I just got done reading the HP Coatings stuff for the 3rd time now and really like what I read. They will coat the face of your piston, face of your valves, then they put a coating on the skirt of your piston, and stem of your valves. They will also coat valve springs. It sounds like a very good investment.

Pistons and Valves

HPC offers two coatings for pistons and valves that can be used together separately of each other based on needs and some class regulations in racing. HPC's thermal barrier coating (TBC) is applied to the combustion face of the piston and a wettable solid dry film (SDF) applied to the skirt.

Probably no part of an engine undergoes greater thermal shock than pistons and valves. Yet this has no effect on the bonding properties of HPC's TBC which has the same coefficient of expansion as aluminum. Particulates are bonded with an inorganic binder which is unaffected by petroleum products. With a bond strength of 10,000 psi, this coating's non-porous ceramic matrix improves flame travel and combustion efficiency as well as reduces oil temperature and prevents carbon buildup. HPC's TBC process also prevents excessive heat from reaching the piston rings reducing radial tension loss due to the ring overheating. TBC applied to the combustion face of the valve prevents overheating of the exhaust valve and heat transfer from the intake valve to incoming cool air and fuel, thus providing a denser air/fuel charge. The process works equally well on both two-cycle and four-cycle pistons, and is applicable to new and used parts.

Our S01 is applied to the skirts of the piston to reduce friction and prevent scuffing. This wettable matrix coating is a Molybdenum Disulfide based coating rather than Teflon. Moly is a higher pressure lubricant and does not "cold flow" under pressures exceeding 150,000 psi. Also Moly attracts oil keeping an adequate film of oil on the part. Teflon will shed oil and thus becomes the only lubricant between the piston and the cylinder wall. The Moly is suspended in a thermosetting polymer binder which hardens during curing providing a permanent lubricant unlike break-in Moly sprays. S01 can also be applied to the stem of the valve to reduce friction and wear. Engine bearings are another excellent application for HPC's S01 coating.

Valve Springs

A valve spring's biggest enemy is heat, and heat is generated in the spring from three sources. First by cycling the spring through compression and extension. For example, try bending a paper clip back and forth, you will feel it get hot at the flex point. Second is heat generated by the friction between the coils on double and triple springs or the spring and the dampener. Third is heat absorbed by the spring from the cylinder head, especially the exhaust spring being right over the exhaust port. Cooling is achieved from oil being splashed over the spring by the rocker arms.

Many coatings have been used on valve springs. Most are PTFE based coatings, and this is fine for reducing friction between coils and dampeners, but oil will be shed by the PTFE eliminating any cooling the spring may see. Our S01 Solid Dry Film Lubricant coating is the answer. S01 not only acts as a superior high pressure lubricant but also attracts oil like steel to a magnet. Valve springs coated with S01 can retain their seat pressure up to three times longer than uncoated valve springs.

Many camshaft manufacturers now offer coated valve springs in their line-up (we should know, we coat many of them). But usually only their most radical springs for all out competition are coated. However, street driven cars see just a much benefit. By performance standards, a valve spring on a daily driven car is worn out by 40,000 miles. At this point even though the motor runs fine it will be down on peak horsepower and RPM capability due to the springs loss of tension. Remember, it is the cams job to open the valve but the valve spring's job to close it in a timely manner. S01 is an excellent choice for any motor being built and is very affordable.

Other S01 Applications:

Stamped steel and ductile iron rocker arms

Rod and main bearings

Rocker shafts

Oil pumps

Manual transmission gears

Ring and pinion gears

Gear drives

Oil Shedding Coatings

[bmw500hp]

Originally posted by WarriorMan
[B It sounds like a very good investment. [/B]

Warrior,,, If it's good enough for the space shuttle, why not??
what kind of money are we talkin for the "royal treatment"....

Do any of the big name builders make comment regarding he process...???? TC..etc..???

I particularly like the moly idea on the skirt...

[Dave400ex]

Well I emailed them about Pricing and stuff so I will let you know when they email me back. I am very interested in this and if it's not real expensive I would do it when I have Motor work done. No engine builders use this stuff as far as I know, but it will only help, not hurt anything....

[bmw500hp]

Warriorman,,

check your pm's, a question for your expertise.....

[Chef]

Originally posted by WarriorMan
Well I emailed them about Pricing and stuff so I will let you know when they email me back. I am very interested in this and if it's not real expensive I would do it when I have Motor work done. No engine builders use this stuff as far as I know, but it will only help, not hurt anything....

PSI uses the coating on the pistons for their R stuff. When my stuff gets here I can get you guys some pics of the coated piston.

[Dave400ex]

Awesome. It sounds like a good idea from reading about it. Just have to see how expensive it is though....

[Dave400ex]

Got an Email back:

Piston and Valves:
Thank you for your interest in HPC. The cost to coat the piston with both thermal barrier coating (TBC) and S01 solid dry film lubricant is $40.00. The valves are $15.00 each for both coatings and $10.00 each for TBC or S01.

Valve Springs:
$2.25 for each piece. So a dual spring would be $4.50 for the assembly. We use our S01 coating for valve springs. This oil-attracting coating has shown to reduce the temperature of the springs 11%+ and increase life considerably. In a test that was done for Car Craft magazine by Air Flow Research after 90 minutes of 6,000 on roller cam valve springs the HPC S01 coated springs had only lost 3.5% of their seat pressure where the uncoated springs had lost 15%! Its not uncommon for springs with any time on them to lose as much as 30% before they stabilize. Valve springs are critical because its the cam's job to open the valve, it's the springs job to close the valve at the right time. Soft springs can cause big horsepower losses in the upper RPM. So its really cheap insurance.

[bmw500hp]

WM you are the man! I think Im going to go for (the works) ...
with this years build....It's not so much money it's gonna break the bank....any form of cooling and longevity helps....

One thing not mentioned was the header.... I hear the ceramic coating not only keeps heat within the header but looks "ultra-cool" like polished aluminum....

[Dave400ex]

Here is a good sheet for anything you may want coated: HPC Price List (http://www.hpcoatings.com/PriceSheet.htm)

[Chef]

Here is the PSI piston, in all its coated glory...lol

Sorry for the poor pic quality, sometimes my camera does that...lol

[AndrewRRR]

My R has a Nikasil (Nickel, carbon, silicone) treated cylinder and piston and I like it. LRD and a lot of builders seem to use it extensively. I recently tore the motor apart with a ton of hours on it and it looks lovely :) I'll get some pics up.
The only problem is everytime you bore your motor you have to get it re-coated.

[Dave400ex]

And whenever you get a new Piston you would have to coat it too. Still worth it though....

[bmw500hp]

I e-mailed hpc,,, ask them for a quote all all services available including header for the ex build. Also ask for instructions and lead times. Post when I receive......

[bmw500hp]

Mike,

I would recommend coating the following items.
All coatings are compatible with Nikosil and organic or synthetic oils.
1 (or more, but less then 4) piston (less then 4.26" diameter)
Thermal Barrier Coating and Solid Dry Film lubricant.
TBC and SDF
$40.00 each.
Valves (intake or exhaust)
Thermal Barrier Coating OR Solid Dry Film lubricant.
$10.00 each
TBC and SDF
$15.00 each
Note: I do not recommend the SDF unless you are having a problem with premature wear of the valve stem guides, such as a natural gas, LP gas or alcohol fuel engine.
Valve springs
Solid Dry Film lubricant.
$2.25 per valve spring. (multiple spring assemblies you must count all springs)
Note: There will be a "Disassembly" charge of $20.00 per order to separate multiple spring assemblies.
(I am not sure if you use a bearing insert or not, so I included the following anyway)
Rod and/or main bearing shell inserts (2 pieces per insert, upper and lower)
$8.50 per bearing
Please include a copy of this email if possible.
http://www.hpcoatings.com/PriceSheet.htm
http://www.hpcoatings.com/processing_form.htm
NO ATTACHMENTS SENT

Steven R. Dekker
General Manager
High Performance Coatings
400 N. Glade Ave
Oklahoma City, OK. US 73127
405-789-2888
405-789-2885 fax
stevedekker@hpcoatings.com

[Dave400ex]

One thing he added that the guy I talked to didn't is the $20 for taking multiple springs apart. We do have those on the 400ex where there is a smaller spring, covered by a bigger spring which would be a multiple spring. So there is an extra $20. I added up $118 for the Piston ($40), TBC and S01 on Valves($60), and S01 for double Springs ($18).

[AndrewRRR]

What about Nikasil for the cylinder/head?

[spliffy]

I Just Saw This On Ebay... What Do You Guys Think?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1874641806

[spliffy]

The Guy From The Above Link Quoted Me $140.00 Shipped Thats A Coated Piston (Wiseco), Rings, Clips & Gasket Set.

[bmw500hp]

I think I have heard enough to go for some advanced coatings on my build... It's not super cheap but it's not gonna break the bank and could be the key to engine longevity and a few extra ponies during the last 30 min of a hot woods pull

.... hpc seems cool because they are (full service) products should function together.

[Dave400ex]

I will be getting my parts coated by HPC when the time comes....