How long before Hondas are fuel injected?

[HondaRaceReady]

I think fuel injection is a horrible idea for a sport atv. Upgrading the bike will be too hard and will have all kinds of problems. Hopefully Honda will be smart and utilize the old technology of carbuerators for a while longer. I just need to know because I'll make sure I buy one of these before they're fuel injected.

[d3ktrix]

No one knows, if they say they do, they are lying :P
Have to wait for Honda's publication in a few months.

[jomama]

for all us oldschool guys, hopefully never.

[j_cyrus3]

im not even old school, but i dont like the idea of the fuel injection on a quad. i would rather have a carb any day.

i've got mixed oppinions on carb vs injected. I'm pretty sure it would be cheaper to buy a bigger carb and its cheaper for jets than a programmer. Fuel injection is supposed to be smooth feeling and elevation/temperature changes are somewhat tuned by itself which is good. IMO fuel injection isnt anything worth be excited for but its not a bad thing to have.

[HondaRaceReady]

i've got mixed oppinions on carb vs injected. I'm pretty sure it would be cheaper to buy a bigger carb and its cheaper for jets than a programmer. Fuel injection is supposed to be smooth feeling and elevation/temperature changes are somewhat tuned by itself which is good. IMO fuel injection isnt anything worth be excited for but its not a bad thing to have.
I think its worse than you think. My buddy just bought a brand new kfx450r, and on the first ride it wouldnt idle. Okay, he works on car engines for a living so he tries to fix it, and nothing works. He brings it to the shop and pays around $300 for them to fix it and still same problem next ride. Also, his pipe and headers started glowing red. Brought it to the dealer again and paid like $500 to get it fixed again. Lasts for a week before it wont idle again and all kinds of other problems from the computers getting wet. Now he just wants to get rid of it after owning it for a month. He's trying to sell it for half of what he paid for it, and still no one he knows will buy it because they saw how many problems he had with it. After seeing this, I never want a fuel injected atv.

[coryatver]

I think its fine for trail bikes. race quads should have a carb.

[dynofox]

Originally posted by HondaRaceReady
I think its worse than you think. My buddy just bought a brand new kfx450r, and on the first ride it wouldnt idle. Okay, he works on car engines for a living so he tries to fix it, and nothing works. He brings it to the shop and pays around $300 for them to fix it and still same problem next ride. Also, his pipe and headers started glowing red. Brought it to the dealer again and paid like $500 to get it fixed again. Lasts for a week before it wont idle again and all kinds of other problems from the computers getting wet. Now he just wants to get rid of it after owning it for a month. He's trying to sell it for half of what he paid for it, and still no one he knows will buy it because they saw how many problems he had with it. After seeing this, I never want a fuel injected atv.

Sorry to hear about your buddy's problems but he should find a new dealer, they should have looked that quad over for nothing if its still under warranty.

Originally posted by HondaRaceReady
I think its worse than you think. My buddy just bought a brand new kfx450r, and on the first ride it wouldnt idle. Okay, he works on car engines for a living so he tries to fix it, and nothing works. He brings it to the shop and pays around $300 for them to fix it and still same problem next ride. Also, his pipe and headers started glowing red. Brought it to the dealer again and paid like $500 to get it fixed again. Lasts for a week before it wont idle again and all kinds of other problems from the computers getting wet. Now he just wants to get rid of it after owning it for a month. He's trying to sell it for half of what he paid for it, and still no one he knows will buy it because they saw how many problems he had with it. After seeing this, I never want a fuel injected atv.

did he buy an EFI tuner? if not then the headers glowing I would assume its from not rejetting or retuning the fuel map and the same goes with it not idling right. EFI will only adjust so far.

[d3ktrix]

Originally posted by HondaRaceReady
I think its worse than you think. My buddy just bought a brand new kfx450r, and on the first ride it wouldnt idle. Okay, he works on car engines for a living so he tries to fix it, and nothing works. He brings it to the shop and pays around $300 for them to fix it and still same problem next ride. Also, his pipe and headers started glowing red. Brought it to the dealer again and paid like $500 to get it fixed again. Lasts for a week before it wont idle again and all kinds of other problems from the computers getting wet. Now he just wants to get rid of it after owning it for a month. He's trying to sell it for half of what he paid for it, and still no one he knows will buy it because they saw how many problems he had with it. After seeing this, I never want a fuel injected atv.

Your friend got super ripped off. All problems that should of been fixed under warranty.

[TWILES]

I read somewhere that the CRF450R's are going to be FI'ed for sure for 09. "IF" they are, I bet the TRX's are too.

[400exrider707]

The KFX's are notorious for having a rough idle for the first 10 hours or so... its all over the boards.


I dont think Honda will have these FI this year. Maybe later on. They know we like to tune our bikes, and the mass of people want nothign to do with FI, because frankly they dont know about it. In some respects I'm jealous of those guys who pull off the track and plug their bike into their laptop and tune instead of tearing the wheeler apart to change jets.... on the other hand I like tearing the bikes apart.

[TWILES]

As far as jets go, my WR isn't THAT much trouble. You are mainly going to change the pilot and main and maybe the needle. I've had the same main jet and needle position in my WR since I changed the stuff the first time. I plugged the leak jet and I'm a 1/2 size high on the pilot but thats a 20 minute fix. My tuning is just the fuel screw. When I had my 04 450R I never changed anything but the main jet when I put the HRC tip on the muffler. My friend had a FCR on his 05 and its not like you are tearing into the carb every day. A half size per jet, back and forth, should be it. If someone is having that much trouble they've got more than just carb problems. That would be leaning more toward engine/intake/exhaust and maybe just mental problems. Jetting isn't an infinite thing. You are limited to what you can do within that certain range where the bike runs right. Its taken me 3 years to understand the FCR and you don't need a DYno. You just need to know how to ride the bike. I think FI is fine and it wouldn't keep me from buying/not buying a bike. I want power and I can make it how "I" want for $25 in jets where the FI controler is set-up by someone else to what "THEY" think is what you want. I think thats what sucks about FI.

[k4f5x0r]

Originally posted by HondaRaceReady
I think its worse than you think. My buddy just bought a brand new kfx450r, and on the first ride it wouldnt idle. Okay, he works on car engines for a living so he tries to fix it, and nothing works. He brings it to the shop and pays around $300 for them to fix it and still same problem next ride. Also, his pipe and headers started glowing red. Brought it to the dealer again and paid like $500 to get it fixed again. Lasts for a week before it wont idle again and all kinds of other problems from the computers getting wet. Now he just wants to get rid of it after owning it for a month. He's trying to sell it for half of what he paid for it, and still no one he knows will buy it because they saw how many problems he had with it. After seeing this, I never want a fuel injected atv.

Im sorry that happened to your friend but thats bull****. ive had my kfx for 6 months or more i think and ive had zero problems. he probably assumed it had a O sensor and could adjust the pipe to itself. he NEEDS a EFI controller.

also for the FI/carb debate. FI is so much nicer. ZERO BOGGING and its alot smoother. it starts up instantly and doesnt need ot warm up to run right. EFI tuning is SOO much easier then trying to figure out jetting. It litterally takes me 20 seconds to get a new map and download it onto my pc3. well it used to before i put it back to stock for sound requirments.

i understand that carb lovers will most likely hate me and try to disprove me in any way possible. i know carbs get a few horses more but they lack the torque.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by TWILES
As far as jets go, my WR isn't THAT much trouble. You are mainly going to change the pilot and main and maybe the needle. I've had the same main jet and needle position in my WR since I changed the stuff the first time. I plugged the leak jet and I'm a 1/2 size high on the pilot but thats a 20 minute fix. My tuning is just the fuel screw. When I had my 04 450R I never changed anything but the main jet when I put the HRC tip on the muffler. My friend had a FCR on his 05 and its not like you are tearing into the carb every day. A half size per jet, back and forth, should be it. If someone is having that much trouble they've got more than just carb problems. That would be leaning more toward engine/intake/exhaust and maybe just mental problems. Jetting isn't an infinite thing. You are limited to what you can do within that certain range where the bike runs right. Its taken me 3 years to understand the FCR and you don't need a DYno. You just need to know how to ride the bike. I think FI is fine and it wouldn't keep me from buying/not buying a bike. I want power and I can make it how "I" want for $25 in jets where the FI controler is set-up by someone else to what "THEY" think is what you want. I think thats what sucks about FI.


Unless you have the software to change it yourself.... like I said, we have a guy who races our district on an LTR and immediately plugs it in to his laptop as soon as he comes off the track to tune.

We've rejetted numerous times at one track before. We've done cam changes at the track to accomodate differing track conditions. That's where I envy an EFI quad, just change fuel delivery settings and go.

[k4f5x0r]

thats also why so many people are switching to efi.
i beleive another reason for switching to efi is for exhaust fumes. with efi you can tune it to be less rich therefore less exhaust fumes and less pollution.

i can see where carbuerated lovers come from though. i dont particularly like it but it is simple, cheaper and it gets the job done well.

[HondaRaceReady]

Im sorry that happened to your friend but thats bull****. ive had my kfx for 6 months or more i think and ive had zero problems. he probably assumed it had a O sensor and could adjust the pipe to itself. he NEEDS a EFI controller.
His bike was always stock. He never tried to put a pipe on it so he shouldnt have ever needed to mess with an EFI controller.

[k4f5x0r]

Originally posted by HondaRaceReady
His bike was always stock. He never tried to put a pipe on it so he shouldnt have ever needed to mess with an EFI controller.

well thats really strange and thats the first time ive ever been hearing of this. he must have gotten a lemon from the factory.

sorry for my misunderstanding :o

[NJ450rider]

Your buddys KFX450R should definatly be refunded under the lemon law if the same problem keeps happening. There are quite a few kfx450r's around here and none of the have had any kinds of problems at all. Your buddys kfx is a fluke and messed up from the factory.

I cant wait for FI. Only cause im use to tunning my turbo car. Although i doubt my next 450 will be a honda. The 450r has been a pos since 2006. 04/05 are the better of all the years so far. Honda needs to do alot more than FI to get me back on another one.

[laeger2fiddyr]

i freaking hope not!!:(

[400exrider707]

How many of you have actually had hands on experience with the KFX's? They are notorious for having a terrible idle for the first 10 hours or so until they "break in" I guess. Read around in the KFX forums. It's not uncommon. I think I'd be more worried if it didn't have this problem.

[ronnoc47]

I found this. Looks like they have the inside scoop on the 09's.
Go to the site below then click on"NEWS"
Then click on the story "Same specs for the big three racers"
www.quadmagazine.tv

[Dave400ex]

Good find! I won't be surprised if the Honda is the same.

[04TRX400EX]

I agree that EFI is more expensive to properly setup after modifications but the tuning ability is superior by far. You can only do so much with a carb - change a couple of jets, move a needle, adjust a screw maybe and that's it. And when you change elevations you get to do it all over again. EFI tuners let you fine tune the engine down to the last detail and definitely provide a more instantaneous throttle response with smoother delivery.

Personally, I'd like to have a trail/XC quad with EFI so it will run correctly no matter where I am but would rather save the weight and complication of EFI on a track quad because it's always going to the same place.

[NJ450rider]

That news story is total BS. If that is true that the 09's will be the same old stupid junk why would bill balance be SOOOO excited for the 09 yfz450 to come out???? He said its gonna turn alot of heads and suprise people. I highly doubt all there doing is plastic and graphics changes for 09. They would have to be idiots to do so!!!! People are more than ready for a ton of upgrades and a wayyyy better factory machine. (like the ktm's.)

Im still suprised that can am has completly redesigned the ds450 for 09. What on earth could they all be changing????

[pro-rider46]

Originally posted by NJ450rider
That news story is total BS. If that is true that the 09's will be the same old stupid junk why would bill balance be SOOOO excited for the 09 yfz450 to come out???? He said its gonna turn alot of heads and suprise people. I highly doubt all there doing is plastic and graphics changes for 09. They would have to be idiots to do so!!!! People are more than ready for a ton of upgrades and a wayyyy better factory machine. (like the ktm's.)




hahaha,

http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/products/modelhome/323/0/home.aspx

not a very big change

[Dave400ex]

Originally posted by NJ450rider
That news story is total BS. If that is true that the 09's will be the same old stupid junk why would bill balance be SOOOO excited for the 09 yfz450 to come out???? He said its gonna turn alot of heads and suprise people. I highly doubt all there doing is plastic and graphics changes for 09. They would have to be idiots to do so!!!! People are more than ready for a ton of upgrades and a wayyyy better factory machine. (like the ktm's.)

Im still suprised that can am has completly redesigned the ds450 for 09. What on earth could they all be changing????

The 09 YFZ is out, but rumor has it that there will be a late release this fall with a new updated YFZ. Who knows. As for Honda, they keep everything so quiet nobody really knows. I still think it will be the same.

For Can Am, I don't think the question is what could they be changing, more like what did they keep. :eek2:

[SHIFTx450]

'F' that efi.. one more thing to go wrong, with the fuel pump and everything... set your carb up right, and there should be absolutely no complaints..

[Modifly]

Honda are not running EFI on there 09 trx's.

you might get some nice stickers if your lucky.

[toxicd]

nobody liked efi when they first appeared in cars in the early 80's but as the technology improved so did its efficiency and ability to produce horse power. i seriously doubt any of you guys would go to the dealership and buy a car that is carbureted now would you??

if they used the equivalent to todays tune port injection, or even direct injection with a stand alone fuel management system utilizing a mass air sensor along with 02 sensors then technically you could tune it to make more hp then with any carburetor.

now if you know what you are doing, and spend hours tuning your carb the proper way(with an 02 or egt) to maximize 100% of your throttle curve by changing every possible combination of jets along with not only needle clip positions but also needle taper(which very few people do) then you could possibly come kinda close to the perfect air to fuel ratio, but then if the temperature, humidity, or elevation changes your back to square one. with fuel injection you dont have to worry about that.

i agree right now that fuel injection isnt the way to go on small motors, but hopefully in the next half decade or so the management systems will become smaller and cheaper and will be more practical on smaller motors.

there are some guys on thumpertalk.com who have some very high tech fuel injection systems on their bikes and i guarantee you they will outperform any carburetor made now or ever will be made. when the technology does catch up with our sport i hope your minds can too because lets face it technology wins races these days. most of us arnt willing to pay thousands of dollars and hours tuning our bikes to get an extra 1hp, but to the serious pro that 1hp could be difference between a win or second place.

i hate to say it but most of us are still analog racers in a digital world.

[FHKracingZ]

hmm drag racing STILL uses carbs.. Those are the high technology, highest horsepower engines out there, and they are CARBURATED.

[D Bergstrom]

Originally posted by FHKracingZ
hmm drag racing STILL uses carbs.. Those are the high technology, highest horsepower engines out there, and they are CARBURATED.

...and they last what, quarter mile and a few feet before a rebuild. Not really a good comparison. Do not know much about drag racing, but I bet if you get away from top fuel, funny car, etc. alot of the "slower" cars use some type of fuel injection. I know alot of the "street based" classes have to use it, as you have to use what is on the car originally.

I know my next quad will be fuel injected, but I do wish they put a better system on quads, something like what is used on cars. For me fuel injection would be great. One of the longer desert races the elevation changes from 3,000' to 9,000' over the course of the race, can not jet for that and not going to stop in the middle of the race and rejet. Sucks cause the quad sputters at the higher elevations and it just plain sucks to ride, just have to ride through it.

Doug

[8my_Cash]

Originally posted by FHKracingZ
hmm drag racing STILL uses carbs.. Those are the high technology, highest horsepower engines out there, and they are CARBURATED.

not really a valid arguement...different sport....way different fuel....different flash points....the list goes on.

all i have to say efi is going to be the future of powersports. mechanics arent mechanics anymore they are TECHnicians because of the use of technology.

once all of the kinks are ironed out of EFI its going to be a huge dominating force in the powersport market.

also i think 2 strokes are going to come back if EFI gets huge. The new fuel injected 2 stroke motors in boats produce way lower emissions and more horse power than their 4 stroke bretheren.

[RideRed84]

I would love to have an 09 F.I. 450R. Not everyone is a racer and uses their quads for MX. I have fun on an MX track from time to time but I race XC and ride trails for fun. I would love to take my quad out in the winter and not have to touch the jetting. If the 09 has F.I. I'll buy, if not I'll get an 06 and deal with jets.

[Modifly]

Originally posted by RideRed84
I would love to have an 09 F.I. 450R. Not everyone is a racer and uses their quads for MX. I have fun on an MX track from time to time but I race XC and ride trails for fun. I would love to take my quad out in the winter and not have to touch the jetting. If the 09 has F.I. I'll buy, if not I'll get an 06 and deal with jets.

the 09 has got a carb. 110% sure.

[represent618]

I had a Cannondale, Fuel Injected of course, and loved it.

Though it did a poor job of balancing in the winter.

I like my 450er just as much, and have been working on carbs all my life, so I am a little more comfortable with it.

I say carbs for life, but I`m old school