Compare to a 250 2 stroke

[HondaRaceReady]

I heard that 450r's are twice as expensive to rebuild, but half the amount of maintanence. Also, I heard the 450r's have a lot of power at the beginning of each gear, but it wont pull hard throughout the entire gear like a 2 stroke. The 450r's are just a cheap imitation of a 2 stroke right, I mean instead of the cycle taking half the time, the stroke is half the size. A small stroke should complete the intake, compression, combustion, exhaust cycle faster, but its just not the same. Which is faster? Keep in mind that a lot of 2 strokes are 6 speeds, so the tall 450r gears dont have much to do with whats faster, its all about the engines.

[gcart2]

Originally posted by HondaRaceReady
Which is faster? Keep in mind that a lot of 2 strokes are 6 speeds, so the tall 450r gears dont have much to do with whats faster, its all about the engines.



Originally posted by benjithx
little vague don't you think...


Here is the answer.

Both travel at the same speed


... if they were both falling from an airplane and were dropped at the same time

[pro-rider46]

450s dominate the 250s and banshees, but they have more potential.

[HondaRaceReady]

450s dominate the 250s and banshees, but they have more potential.
What are you saying has more potential? Potential for what?

[Vade]

In makin power

Originally posted by HondaRaceReady
What are you saying has more potential? Potential for what?

banshees have the potential to blow up or be gayer

[pro-rider46]

two strokes can make more hp when built, you can buy a 771cc big bore for a banshee, and can make over 150hp on motor alone.
If you go down into the dyno section, buttermilk has a dyno of a trx400r, its a 250r with a puma 400cc cylinder, and it make over 86 hp. Check it out.

[Benjithx]

Originally posted by FoxHondaRider
banshees have the potential to blow up or be gayer


:devil:

[TheNewn]

It just depends on what you want...that old cliche...

But I'm sure if 250rs were still allowed to race next to the 450s im sure there would be lots of them.

a Built 250r will make more power than a built 450r (big bore/stroke/ported blah blah) in most cases from what i've read.
and probably be much more reliable.

If there was a new 250R with today's technology i was able to buy off the showroom floor...i'd buy it over a 450R.

[warr72]

That is the thing two strokes are a thing of the past. Here kitty kitty. Quite a few of the so called fast guys around here said they would blow me away with 250R and banshees, well still waiting to get beat, on track mx or xc. :devil:

[All250R]

Originally posted by warr72
That is the thing two strokes are a thing of the past. Here kitty kitty. Quite a few of the so called fast guys around here said they would blow me away with 250R and banshees, well still waiting to get beat, on track mx or xc. :devil:
What makes the common version (250R, banshee, etc) of 2strokes in registered vehicles a thing of the past is political, not technical. Also, "2strokes" are used in more than motorcycles, and the technology has not globally halted in develoment.

2strokes make a power pulse every revolution of the crank, which is twice as often as a 4stroke. Without getting confused with details, it's this design fundamental that makes 2strokes make more though often less efficient power. In two perfectly scavenged motors (neither of which actually are), all things other things being equal the one firing twice as often makes twice the power.

In terms of maintenance, if a part is not in the engine, you don't have to replace it or worry about its lifespan. Maintenance is simpler on a two stroke, and 450 tolerances and design are more akin to Formula1 technology than when 2strokes were not "a thing of the past" and your XR lasted longer than your dog.

[baldathoR]

Originally posted by All250R
What makes the common version (250R, banshee, etc) of 2strokes in registered vehicles a thing of the past is political, not technical.

Thank god someone gets it.

[CNC_guy]

I had an '88 250R that was completely stock and rode it nearly every day for years. I put rings in it twice just as a precaution....meaning there were no symptoms that caused me to put rings in it. I got out of riding for 10+ years and just recently ('06) got back into it.


I ride an '05 450R now that is also completely stock. I've had no issues with it so far (knock on wood) and have enjoyed every minute of riding it.

It's hard for me to compare the two. I loved that 2-stroke power. The 4-stroke is a different power and it took me a little while to get used to it. I actually had a 500 quadracer after the 250R and I NEVER killed that thing. Most of my riding is fast trails and hill climbs. I bet I killed the 450R a hundred times those first few rides on technical hill climbs. I was trying to ride it like I had ridden the 250R.

For me personally, I'd like to have the 450R chassis with a 450 2-stroke motor.:devil: Since that's not available I'll take my 450R.

If my old 250R and 450R were sitting side by side in showroom condition.....I'd probably choose the 450R. If it were a 250R with today's technology, it would edge out the 450R by just a little bit.

[TWILES]

I've had a 250R, 500, and Banshee and the 04' 450R I had was fun to ride but I didn't spend any money on it to see what all it had. With it stock, the power came on too hard and fell off way too fast but a stock 250R wasn't any better. It was just the opposite. I liked my Banshee best of all. I rode an 06' 450R after I sold my 04 and LOVED IT! The power pulled hard but smooth and over a wide range. That motor was like my WR just 15+ horses less. My 250R had a lot of work done by Krank-It and a Banshee wouldn't hook-up well enough to hange with it. Power wasn't the problem. However, the Hybrid 450's weren't any faster than my Banshee, wheel-spin factored in, so I guess it basically comes down to whether a guy wants it ride a 2stroke or 4stroke. I just wish you could get a completely uncorked version of all the 450's like the YZ's and CR's come stock. I don't see the problem with making a red sticker version of all the 450 quads. Guys like me would buy bikes instead of buying a quad and spending $????.?? on it just to get it to run like our old Banshee's, 250R's, and 500's.

[honda4life72]

4 strokes have this thing called torque.
2 strokes have never seen or heard of it.

:devil:

[TheNewn]

Originally posted by honda4life72
4 strokes have this thing called torque.
2 strokes have never seen or heard of it.

:devil:

Go look at some Banshee Dynos.

[Rich250RRacer]

I'll make this short, I own everything you see in my sig. Not owned previously, not rode one time for five minutes, not looked at once, I own them. And if I had to choose only one.......... hands down, 250R.

[Drewltr450]

Hands down 2-strokes r qweer.... k bye

[baldathoR]

Originally posted by honda4life72
4 strokes have this thing called torque.
2 strokes have never seen or heard of it.

:devil:

Come on silly.


That's why they put gears and a clutch on them.

[All250R]

Originally posted by Drewltr450
Hands down 2-strokes r qweer.... k bye
Wow. You sure know how to put out those intellectual gems don't you.

[warr72]

UUUMMMMM just called a Honda factory rep I know, and boys your behind, they don't make two strokes anymore. Every guy I know that has a 250R cries about Honda not making them anymore BLAH BLAH. Same with the girlshee,blasturd and the rest of the weed wackers. Get over it, move on as the times do. Oh I have had 250r's, and other weed wackers, as I have been racing and riding since :eek2: wow am I really getting that old. Well since the 70's. Then these weed wacker boys want to race with 310, 265 and other big bores and still look like fools. Sad really and quite frankly :D !

[Drewltr450]

Ive riden with banshees and 250rs and have yet to see them do the stuff me and my friends do on our 450's. They wont even roll up to the stuff we do. and its not really that hard.

[CNC_guy]

^ That sounds like rider ability more than anything.

There is NOTHING that my 450R will do that my 250R wouldn't do as far as obstacles, hills, jumps etc. In some cases the 250R would be better and in others the 450R would excel.

[All250R]

Originally posted by warr72
UUUMMMMM just called a Honda factory rep I know, and boys your behind, they don't make two strokes anymore. Every guy I know that has a 250R cries about Honda not making them anymore BLAH BLAH. Same with the girlshee,blasturd and the rest of the weed wackers. Get over it, move on as the times do. Oh I have had 250r's, and other weed wackers, as I have been racing and riding since :eek2: wow am I really getting that old. Well since the 70's. Then these weed wacker boys want to race with 310, 265 and other big bores and still look like fools. Sad really and quite frankly :D !
[yawn]

[All250R]

Evinrude and orbital (I think they're independent) for example have DI tech for 2strokes (for those with stunted attention spans, yes 2strokes are still being made). Here's a short youtube on the new 2t tech that meet the emissions standards bearing down on manufacturers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viWhxvo6DLk

[All250R]

another:
2strokes sinks a 4strokes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-7I00cZUE0&feature=related)
another (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XRCDN3JKZ0&NR=1) - listen to the comment about 4strokes and advertising

[400exrider707]

I hear all these guys saying if they made a new high tech version of the 250R they'd buy it..... well how come none of you own one! I've only seen one dude on this forum that owned and raced one.


Here it is go buy it....


www.servicehonda.com

[warr72]

Wow! That is way cool on the outboards but last time I checked my Honda didn't have a prop. :huh Think I saw that info-mercial the last time I was up real late sick. Must of been earth shattering news for you 2-strokers. :eek2: jk On the serice Honda site I just loooked at, that maybe a good bike for my wife. Seriously. ;)

[All250R]

Originally posted by warr72
Wow! That is way cool on the outboards but last time I checked my Honda didn't have a prop. :huh Think I saw that info-mercial the last time I was up real late sick. Must of been earth shattering news for you 2-strokers. :eek2: jk On the serice Honda site I just loooked at, that maybe a good bike for my wife. Seriously. ;) If you don't value general compartive responses then make more specific statements. Just a suggestion.

[All250R]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
I hear all these guys saying if they made a new high tech version of the 250R they'd buy it..... well how come none of you own one! I've only seen one dude on this forum that owned and raced one.


Here it is go buy it....


www.servicehonda.com

Well, high tech isn't really a 400ex chassis in my opinion. People may not know it but the 86 CR250 cylinder, head, intake and the 86 TRX250 engine are very different setups. The TRX doen't suffer from a lack of being modern, it suffers mostly from deliberate de-tuning.

The biggest problem with making the TRX perform well is catching up with all of the defered maintenance and years of dirt wheels subscribers bolting on mismatched aftermarket parts. The service honda bike in my opinion is a way to try to start over fresh in one purchase not necessarily because the design is better, though the stock CR engine will outperform a stock TRX engine by a pretty large margin.

[warr72]

Oh I value general comparative responses as much as I value your statements poured into text. :D

[dynofox]

Originally posted by All250R
Evinrude and orbital (I think they're independent) for example have DI tech for 2strokes (for those with stunted attention spans, yes 2strokes are still being made). Here's a short youtube on the new 2t tech that meet the emissions standards bearing down on manufacturers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viWhxvo6DLk

Thanks for posting this, I honestly can't believe how clueless some of you guys are! 2-strokes are dead? Someone forgot to tell BRP and Polaris, they've got tons of money invested into the development of high tech 2-strokes. BRP's current 800cc 2-stroke twin puts out 155hp with 110lbs of trq (Polaris has also released a new 800cc motor with even more hp for '09). BRP has also expanded is direct injection technology (e-tech) into their sleds and offer a 600cc 2-stroke twin that gets better gas mileage, is cleaner in almost every respect to Yamaha's fuel injected sleds and weighs almost 150lbs less than the 4-stroke sleds.

Its too bad Polaris or BRP doesn't build a 2-stroke race quad, it might surprise a lot of you guys.

[All250R]

Originally posted by dynofox
...it might surprise a lot of you guys.
Some just need to see enough advertisements and they'll line up. From what I understand it's Honda that's the company to convince in the ATV and dirtbike market. They're traditionally a 4stroke company. They were forced into 2strokes in the 70's by Yamaha if my memory serves me right. I think it's hard to say. There's a lot going on in recreation motors market right now.

[venom450r]

Originally posted by pro-rider46
two strokes can make more hp when built, you can buy a 771cc big bore for a banshee, and can make over 150hp on motor alone.
If you go down into the dyno section, buttermilk has a dyno of a trx400r, its a 250r with a puma 400cc cylinder, and it make over 86 hp. Check it out.
And I can squeeze a 200hp gixxer1000 motor in my frame w/ little modification...but that's not exactly practical.
I have a 480cc stock crank n/a build that put down 63.x on the rollers w/ less that $1500 invested. Not many 2 strokes you can say that about.
btw it'll hang the wheels all the way into 5th w/ my stock swinger

[warr72]

Why is it everytime I hear two strokes are gonna beat my 450 they are running strokers or big bores on their R's or banshees? I run stock bore and stroke on my 08 450 and you still can't get near me, mx or xc. When I switched from a 250R to a 400EX I caught alot of grief. The 250R was a great quad in its day but that was in its day. Look, cut the mullets, take off the poison tribute shirt and get out of the 80's. :macho

[dynofox]

Originally posted by warr72
Why is it everytime I hear two strokes are gonna beat my 450 they are running strokers or big bores on their R's or banshees? I run stock bore and stroke on my 08 450 and you still can't get near me, mx or xc. When I switched from a 250R to a 400EX I caught alot of grief. The 250R was a great quad in its day but that was in its day. Look, cut the mullets, take off the poison tribute shirt and get out of the 80's. :macho

haha I'll keep my mullet thank you! :D I've owned a few 400ex's, and have ridden all the new 450's except the can am and KTM and still love my 250r. I can get a few of the brands for dealer cost as I work at a dealership but prefer the old school 250r, can't beat the smell and sound of a pinger.

The point myself and others were trying to make is if the sport quads received the kind of 2-stroke tech the new sleds do a lot of you guys might own one. You are comparing a current high tech 4-stroke to 70's / 80's low tech 2-strokes, the fact that the 250r is as competitive as it is being "outdated" is actually quite impressive IMO.

[All250R]

Originally posted by venom450r
And I can squeeze a 200hp gixxer1000 motor in my frame w/ little modification...but that's not exactly practical.
I have a 480cc stock crank n/a build that put down 63.x on the rollers w/ less that $1500 invested. Not many 2 strokes you can say that about.
btw it'll hang the wheels all the way into 5th w/ my stock swinger
An equal displacement 2stroke for your 480 or 1000 would put out significantly more hp - and that's comparing yesterday's 2stroke, pipe tuned technology. It's not a matter of opinion. The fact is that for their simplicity and cost, the 2stroke puts out a lot more power with a lot less effort. Look at the link in the Dyno section on the 400cc Puma cyl on the TRX bottom end putting hp out in the 80's. The engine has a firing pulse once ever revolution of the crank. You can make anything bigger and it will be faster - just like comparing a 450 to a 250 and saying how much faster the 450 is... well that's not a big accomplishment if you're someone that wants to say broad things like "2strokes are outdated", don't you think?? Especially when the difference isn't even that much. I'm not trying to argue or piss anyone off. I'm hoping to shed some light on a bigger picture than what's the flavor of the year and what Honda needs us to contribute to their bottom line for.

The latest drive in engine technology isn't even power motivated. The drive is for emissions reduction, something that's been goign on in on-road vehicles for a couple decades. There is a much bigger picture here than what's new tech and what's old. Besides that most people don't even understand what it is that is new and old tech other than the year stamped on their frame, which they assume is an actual indication. Again, not trying to be antagonistic with that, but it's true. How many people in the riding community can accurately identify what and why is new in 4strokes with their 450R engine that makes "4strokes new tech"? Thats a "4stroke" question not an ATV question. And vice versa, how many people can say what is old tech about any two stroke engine?

New tech is not about 2stroke and 4stroke with one being newer than the other here guys. Baring the physics of it, the history is longer than since the 80 when some of us started riding. If you realize that, you can get more appreciation for the engineering and then the marketplace. Not that I'm some all seeing sage, but there are more options available to you and more going on in actual advancements in technology than many realize.

[warr72]

Ok as far as bang for the buck the two strokes are easy to work on and parts are very reasonable. Now I raced 2 strokes for years and I always thought reliability sucked. Now my 08 450 has been expensive so far, to buy,build, so on. But it is very impressive once tweaked in and reliable as all hell so far. I liked the 250R for more open tracks and the 400ex for tight woods. The 450 will do both, better. Now you compare a 1970's off road 4 stroke quad motor to my new 450R Honda motor and they are worlds apart. Technology is so "good" now, we might racing with batteries instead of race fuel. I will be honest I miss the smell of Maxima and Cam 2. mmmmmmm :rolleyes:

[trx310R#24]

Originally posted by FoxHondaRider
banshees have the potential to blow up or be gayer

FACT

[woodsracer144]

ok you put the coin in the motor and the chassie in a 250r you will spank anything... its all coming down to how much you wanna spend i watched a hond 250r blow a 450r and a yfz out of the water in the open ice flat track racing...

[warr72]

Look down and what is that yes a KX 500 right below my 450. Now my 450 is tuned and so isn't my 500. But my 450 will run with my 500. Look two stroke or four stroke it comes down to rider more times than not. Here kitty kitty!

[trxredrider]

Originally posted by warr72
Look down and what is that yes a KX 500 right below my 450. Now my 450 is tuned and so isn't my 500. But my 450 will run with my 500. Look two stroke or four stroke it comes down to rider more times than not. Here kitty kitty!
You have a KX500 that will not outrun your 450R? :confused: Either that KX500 needs rebuilt or the throttle needs opened up more!