What's the first engine mod to get

[buster024]

Hey all,
So I'm darn near done with everything surrounding my engine. I've replaced suspension, swing-arm, a-arms, exhaust, cdi, (new axle and carrier on en route), tire & rims, handlebars, plastics, hood....need I say more.
I promised myself I would build the bike around comfort and handling first, then beef the engine. Well,,,,,it's time. I wish I could dump $4k in the thing all at once, and have it all done at once, but unfortunately, my lottery numbers weren't called last week. I'm considering all options for engine upgrades, but I'm definitely wanting some beef.....440 stroker etc.
What are the steps I can take to begin the process. Keep in mind my engine is completely stock.

Hotcams? Those seem to be a hot ticket, but I don't want to buy something now, that I'm going to have to replace when I upgrade the block.

Carb? I don't mind spending some dough on something right now that doesn't really do much immediately, but will pay off in the end.

Stroker guys, please pipe up about your "unbiased" opinion on how the bike runs now versus when it was stock. Is it a pain in the *** to go just run around on the weekend now, or is it still fairly reliable?

Oh yeah, and I don't want to hear "get a 450". I love my 400, and wouldn't trade it for a 450 ever. 450's are sweet, but if I wanted a 450, I'd have bought a 450.

[speedfoxracing]

well i dont know about gettin the 440 cause depends on wut kind of ridin u do will matter cause they run hot and if there not built right not relible either

[zrpilot]

If your price conscious, then I would do the following:

1) Sparks X6 std core
2) 450R carb (of course with a zrpilot adapter! LOL)
3) 2MM overbore
4) 11:1 Wiseco, JE, CP, or Ross piston
5) HD cam Chain
6) HC stage II cam


Optional:

HD Clutch Kit
HD Headstuds
Port/Polish

This would give alot of reliable power.

[DementeD]

zrpilot nailed it imo

although im going to keep in my timing advancement key
im also planning to us the xr400 headgasket so u get the true 11:1 comp.
im also planing to go to a cbr1100 oil cooler witha 5" fan just for added cooling measures

i doubt its really NEEDED but..a cooler engine will last a lot longer then a overheating one :D
and for the ~100 price tag of doing this i think its well added insurance..

[speedfoxracing]

if ur goin 2 go with the 2 mm over and 11:1 with cams i would recomend 2 do the head studs anyway just 2 be on the safe side

[zrpilot]

Originally posted by DementeD
zrpilot nailed it imo

although im going to keep in my timing advancement key
im also planning to us the xr400 headgasket so u get the true 11:1 comp.
im also planing to go to a cbr1100 oil cooler witha 5" fan just for added cooling measures

i doubt its really NEEDED but..a cooler engine will last a lot longer then a overheating one :D
and for the ~100 price tag of doing this i think its well added insurance..

GREAT SUGGESTIONS!!!

[buster024]

Alright, so starting off at the beginning,,,,You would recommend a new exhaust.....I know my little Yoshi is a base model, but am I going to need a new exhaust?
ZRPILOT -- I've definitely read your post, and thought about your adapter with the 450 carb. Good tip....I may have to invest in one of those.
Alright, so I hate giving away my "ignorance" in motor knowledge, but what is an overbore. I've installed every thing on my bike. It has never seen the inside of a dealer or pro garage, but I am definitely going to have a pro/expert to the motorwork when it's called for. What is the overbore going to do, and how is that going to prep my motor for future work?

thanks for all the help so far!

[speedfoxracing]

well not to much unless u get a high compression piston which will make it a lil more snappy. plus u,ll know u will have a new top and end and everything will be fresh. idk about urs but mines an 01 and it smokes pretty good and i can feel it losin compression

[buster024]

Shoot...forgot to ask this....Is there a specific year to avoid, or specific year to look for in 450 carbs? I'm not a big fan of used parts, although I have some on my bike already. I'm ok with dropping some dough on each part, if it's worth it. Is there an equal or better carb for the 400 that wouldn't require a pimpin' ZRPILOT adapter?:D

[buster024]

well not to much unless u get a high compression piston

So would it make sense then to get the pistons first, then do the overbore? Or do they have to be done at the same time? Do I have to order the pistons special sized for the overbore? Man, I hate feeling like I'm asking stupid questions. I knew this time would come....oh well....everyone has to be a noob at some point.

[buster024]

although im going to keep in my timing advancement key

So, is that going to be an upgrade no matter what my future engine mods are? If you were planning on going big, would that be a mod that would have been worth the dough spent on it?

[zrpilot]

Originally posted by buster024
Alright, so starting off at the beginning,,,,You would recommend a new exhaust.....I know my little Yoshi is a base model, but am I going to need a new exhaust?
ZRPILOT -- I've definitely read your post, and thought about your adapter with the 450 carb. Good tip....I may have to invest in one of those.
Alright, so I hate giving away my "ignorance" in motor knowledge, but what is an overbore. I've installed every thing on my bike. It has never seen the inside of a dealer or pro garage, but I am definitely going to have a pro/expert to the motorwork when it's called for. What is the overbore going to do, and how is that going to prep my motor for future work?

thanks for all the help so far!

I did not see you had a slip on, sorry.

IMO, the desire for more motor power and the fun of doing motor mods is kind a like a drinking binge..., when you get on a roll it is tough to stop!!

I can only pass along what I experienced.. I wish I had gone the full exhaust route, instead I bought an HMF slip-on, then wanted more power and sold it and bought the Sparks X6....

Sounds like the drinking binge!! LOL

The exhaust I'm running now cost me over $750!!!! yikes!!! Had I bought the Sparks, it would have been about $575.

Nothing wrong with a slip-on, if your satisfied with the power gains you get with it, and the potential power left in your machine NOT having the full exhaust....

[buster024]

I did not see you had a slip on

It's a full Yoshi system, not just slip-on. I forget my sig doesn't provide all the info (thank god...it'd be a mile long) I know Sparks is a great brand (and definitely an upgrade to my Yosh), but I wouldn't think it's a requirement for engine upgrades. Not to be argumentative, just chattering. I'm really looking for specific engine mods to get me on my way. If it's truly exhaust/intake mods that is my next step, then I'm good with that, but I was hoping my $500 Yosh system was going to be adequate. :(

[speedfoxracing]

i would recomend gettin a curtis sparks full system

[speedfoxracing]

heres a good deal http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_ATV-Parts-Accessories__Honda-400EX-99-08-Curtis-Sparks-X-6-Exhaust_W0QQitemZ290240252454QQadnZATVQ20PartsQ20Q 26Q20AccessoriesQQadiZ2869QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item 290240252454&

[zrpilot]

Originally posted by buster024
Shoot...forgot to ask this....Is there a specific year to avoid, or specific year to look for in 450 carbs? I'm not a big fan of used parts, although I have some on my bike already. I'm ok with dropping some dough on each part, if it's worth it. Is there an equal or better carb for the 400 that wouldn't require a pimpin' ZRPILOT adapter?:D

OK, here are the carb options and my OPINION on each:
1) Keihin (from SUDCO) 39MM FCR carb. Great carb. Good throttle response. Probably the best power. Direct fit (no ZRPILOT adapter needed). BUT it is expensive ($500+) and IMO hard to tune to get perfect. I had one!
2) Edelbrock carb... no personal expereince, but have not heard many people running them and more often then not those that do have them struggle getting them running.
3) 2006+ 450R carb, This is a FCR. No personal experience. One guy here has run one and I think he suffers a low end bog...IIRC
4)2004-2005 roundslide carb. $170 NEW from service honda. Easiest after market carb to tune, IMO. Alot of people here run them. Great throttle response. slightly less top end power vs the FCR. Needs a little modding to get to fit (unless you use an AWESOME zrpilot adapter!!!LOL). This carb is the best compromise between cost vs. performance vs. tunability.

[zrpilot]

Originally posted by buster024
So would it make sense then to get the pistons first, then do the overbore? Or do they have to be done at the same time? Do I have to order the pistons special sized for the overbore? Man, I hate feeling like I'm asking stupid questions. I knew this time would come....oh well....everyone has to be a noob at some point.

Buy the piston, the shop doing the boring will need it to fit the piston to the bore. Also have them check the ring gap.

PLEASE NOTE: If your considering the HD head studs, do them BEFORE the bore...installing them will distort the bore that will be restored round after the bore.

[buster024]

heres a good deal

Funny, I was just looking at that on Ebay.....

So all of those carb options look to have a little pain in the butt factor. I'm totally good with taking it in and having the whole bike dropped on a dyno machine at LRD Innovations to get it dialed just right (they're just down the street). I've never heard a single good review on the Edelbrock which sorta' dissapoints me based on their name recognition.
I'm definitely down for spending $150 vs $500 for a carb, although if it's not the right choice for my bike, I'll drop the dough on the more expensive model. I suppose all this is tough to assume if I don't pick out the final engine upgrade I'm going with. I'm looking for good quality, with top reliability. I don't have millions in disposable income, but I'm not strapped. If you had the dough what would you do?

So, here it is......(hope this stirs it up)..........what's the most reliable, fastest, best trail/track engine out there (please don't say the 400 or 450). Stroker or not??

[zrpilot]

Originally posted by buster024
Funny, I was just looking at that on Ebay.....

So all of those options look to have a little pain in the butt factor. I'm totally good with taking it in and having the whole bike dropped on a dyno machine at LRD (it's just down the street). I've never heard a single good review on the Edelbrock which sorta' dissapoints me based on their name recognition.
I'm definitely down for spending $150 vs $500 for a carb, if it is the right choice for my bike. I suppose all this is tough to assume if I don't pick out the final engine upgrade I'm going with.

So, here it is......(hope this stirs it up)..........what's the most reliable, fastest, best trail/track engine out there (please don't say the 400 or 450). Stroker or not??

HOW MUCH?

Again if money were no object, I'd do a 2mm overbore that is stroked for a 450CC engine. Prices range from $1500 for engine labor, machining, gaskets, stroke crank, custom 87mm piston with relocated wrist pin hole, for the extra stroke, camshaft. To $3000 for all of the above plus: full race exhaust, CDI, Race porting, and 8 plate clutch kit.

OTHERWISE the recipe I laid out above is about the best value for the money, IMO

[leasureryan]

Overbore is the last thing you want to do. Everything else, like cams, studs, full exhaust system, air box mods, jetting, valves, etc.....revolves around the size of your bore. So either do these first, or all at the same time.

Get a header, or matching component full system, like a Curtis sparks or HMF, Mod your lid with either Uni vents, Do a DIY outerwares lid, or just flip the bill for an EHS airbox lid....best investment, plus it looks great, billet aluminum, with outerwares. Also get a Uni air filter, and get some good "Super Tacky" air filter oil, I suggest PJ filter oil.

Then rejet your carb. With the full system, and air box lid mod, and jetted CORRECTLY!!!....you should be fairly happy with the power increase. You may say the hell with the rest of the mods, because it will be enough for now. The less you have to enter that motor.....the better.....other than rutine maintaining, like valves etc.


Screw the 450R carb for now.....no point in boosting air flow by using a bigger carb if all your internals are still stock. The carb you have now will supply plenty of air/fuel for now......until you go boring your cylinder to 440, using high compression pistons, port/polished, camed, valved, etc etc.



also......piston size depends on how far over you bore the cylinder. If you wanted to change your piston now, buy high compression stock bore piston, and HD studs (GT Thunder). If you bought a piston now, for stock bore, then bored the cylinder, it would flop around like a hotdog in a hallway. You need that fit to be TIGHT!

[buster024]

I would say my budget is around 3k or so (give or take depending on bang for buck). I'd probably go as high as 4k. I know I'm not getting anything back for resale on this thing, so no one has to say it.
ZR, thanks for the input, so back to my first question, based on this latest info, would the carb and exhaust still be the best first upgrades? What can I do myself, without the help of a machine shop, to prep the bike for the big mods.

3 or 4k dang! $1000 put towards my quad and i am more than satisfied! lol

[buster024]

Get a header, or matching component full system, like a Curtis sparks or HMF, Mod your lid with either Uni vents, Do a DIY outerwares lid, or just flip the bill for an EHS airbox lid....best investment, plus it looks great, billet aluminum, with outerwares. Also get a Uni air filter, and get some good "Super Tacky" air filter oil, I suggest PJ filter oil.

I've got a FULL YOSH system..header and all. I run an airbox lid either fully off, or with Uni vents already depending on riding conditions. I've got a K&N with outerwares on there (I don't want to get into the debate over K&N versus Uni-filter). I don't run a super tacky air filer oil I guess, so you've got that on me. I've ran with those mods and all my other mods for some time now, so I'm to the "hell with it" point now with my motor.
I've been around this site long enough, I at least knew I should upgrade everything around the motorblock first, or I'd get blasted.
Remember, my initial question was about stages of upgrades. I realize the carb may be a futile upgrade with a stock motor, but would it be a necessity with an upgrade? (I'm thinking so)

[zrpilot]

Originally posted by buster024
I would say my budget is around 3k or so (give or take depending on bang for buck). I'd probably go as high as 4k. I know I'm not getting anything back for resale on this thing, so no one has to say it.
ZR, thanks for the input, so back to my first question, based on this latest info, would the carb and exhaust still be the best first upgrades? What can I do myself, without the help of a machine shop, to prep the bike for the big mods.

For $3-$4K, ABSOLUTELY, IMO

Sparks and a 450R carb...

I sent you a PM. call me and I'll try to help the best I can.

There is alot of mis-information here, please be careful what you subscribe to as some advice could be expensive.

[buster024]

3 or 4k dang! $1000 put towards my quad and i am more than satisfied! lol

Hey, I'm not looking to walk out and drop 3 or 4 tomorrow, but I'm willing to invest that kind of dough over a period of time. I totally don't want to offend anyone. If I can get great reliable performance for less, sign me up. I don't know about you guys (maybe you older guys on this site can understand this), but riding my quad is one of the few things that turns it all off for me.....no work, no worries, just hang on. That's priceless.

[buster024]

I sent you a PM. call me and I'll try to help the best I can.

replied....thanks!!!

Originally posted by buster024
I don't know about you guys (maybe you older guys on this site can understand this), but riding my quad is one of the few things that turns it all off for me.....no work, no worries, just hang on. That's priceless.

hey i understand that and i'm 16 almost 17. I love riding just being able to do what you want to and you have control over everything, no one to bother you, thats the joy of the sport. Its fun with friends and its fun even by yourself. I sometimes take trail rides myself just cruising through not flying through everything just look around no ones around you, no one to have to wait for no one to catch up to, its great

[zrpilot]

Originally posted by buster024
Hey, I'm not looking to walk out and drop 3 or 4 tomorrow, but I'm willing to invest that kind of dough over a period of time. I totally don't want to offend anyone. If I can get great reliable performance for less, sign me up. I don't know about you guys (maybe you older guys on this site can understand this), but riding my quad is one of the few things that turns it all off for me.....no work, no worries, just hang on. That's priceless.

Hey, who you calling old??!! LOL

Check your PMS... send me your address...

[buster024]

16 years old.....geesh....I wish.....I feel old now officially. Man, how did 33 creep up on me like it did. Good for you FoxHondarider....keep up that freedom. Ride Red!!!

Originally posted by buster024
16 years old.....geesh....I wish.....I feel old now officially. Man, how did 33 creep up on me like it did. Good for you FoxHondarider....keep up that freedom. Ride Red!!!

thanks man you too. Hey 33 isnt old either you still have plenty of years of fun

[buster024]

ZRPILOT = STUD

:D

[buster024]

By the way,,,,I just have to stretch out a few more posts, and I'll hit my magical 400 post mark!! Since it's a 400 forum, don't I win a free plasma tv or something? :blah:

[DementeD]

the timing key isnt to be used on big bore ie 426cc or larger..or anything over say 11:1

and u can buy a 450r carb BRAND new for 160

[hypersnyper6947]

Im just going to through in my 2 cents, when i was doing my 440 i had all the machine work done by gt thunder including my headstuds. They did everything at a good price. That way when i got it back all i had to do is bolt it up. I think it was $55 for the Hd studs $59 for the install on those. Then another $120 for the re-sleaving, piston matching, and honing of my cylinder. It was all done and back to me within 7 days.

[buster024]

Well, after talking with several shops, and several others on this site, it looks like a new carb is probably the best option for the first upgrade. I got a ZRPILOT custom fab'd boot on route, so now it's just up to me to find the used carb.
Although, several shops said the FCR39 carb was the best carb to get......unfortunately that bad boy is $500, versus the 04-05 450R carb that I can get for $150......
ZR....I know you had one of the FCR39's and had issues tuning it....did you ever have it dyno'd, or was it trailside tuning issues?

[zrpilot]

Originally posted by buster024
Well, after talking with several shops, and several others on this site, it looks like a new carb is probably the best option for the first upgrade. I got a ZRPILOT custom fab'd boot on route, so now it's just up to me to find the used carb.
Although, several shops said the FCR39 carb was the best carb to get......unfortunately that bad boy is $500, versus the 04-05 450R carb that I can get for $150......
ZR....I know you had one of the FCR39's and had issues tuning it....did you ever have it dyno'd, or was it trailside tuning issues?
Yep i had it dynoed. Made good power, but it just did not run right. I could never get rid of an off-idle bog. I tried jetting it on the dyno, jetting by the seat of the pants, Boyesen quick shot accelerator pump cover , (3) different needles... you name it I tried it. Oh yeah and it detonated when it was hot!

I made (3) changes and my problems went away.
1) Ran 110 octane race gas
2) switched to a 450R carb
3) switched to a Sparks X6 exhaust.

Here is a dyno run form my 400EX before the above changes!
IMO the carb and the exhaust was the biggest.

[buster024]

That's good advice. Thanks ZR for all the good info. It looks like far and away the leading option is the 450 stroker (416 with a 4mm stroker crank if I'm not mistaken). Based on all the recommendations, looks like I have to invest in a new pipe....Sparks.....bummer I gotta' blow the dough on a new pipe but it should pay off in the end.
Anyone have any input on the 416 with a stroker?

[vAnS_77]

I too am looking to dump alot of money into my engine this winter. I already have LT quadrate elka/rear, +2/+1 Stem anti vibe, quad is at 50" stance, new clutch. I'm just looking for a fresh rebuild and maybe at the most a 416 kit. I want my 400 just to have a massive bottom end and still be reliable. Thanks guys good post!

[buster024]

I'm just looking for a fresh rebuild and maybe at the most a 416 kit. I




and still be reliable

I hear ya. Reliability is really paramout to me as well. I was excited to hear I could hit high 40's in the hp department, and not have to go to a big bore, or resleeve.

I wonder about port & polishing at the same time?? I assume it could only help?!

[DuwBra]

Originally posted by buster024
Hey, I'm not looking to walk out and drop 3 or 4 tomorrow, but I'm willing to invest that kind of dough over a period of time. I totally don't want to offend anyone. If I can get great reliable performance for less, sign me up. I don't know about you guys (maybe you older guys on this site can understand this), but riding my quad is one of the few things that turns it all off for me.....no work, no worries, just hang on. That's priceless.

Amen to that brother, I'm glad someone feels the same towards quads as me and my buddies. Its life for us man, live it, breathe it all day everyday.

[pro-rider46]

buster if i was you. i would put that money away and save it up to about 3-4k, and then send the whole motor off to a builder, and tell the builder to do the works, you can get a CRAZY motor for 4 grand, i know a guy with about 4k going into his 450r engine, and its probably going to make more than 70-75hp.