250r vs 700

[kubitza123]

Will a slightly modded ,jetted etc 250r out run a new raptor and the new 450's if they are completly stock? If now how close?

[troybilt]

I have a buddy that I ride with that has an 07 Rapturd bonestock and I have a slightly modded 89 250r, (pipe, 38 A/S, k&N, boysen reeds, 12 tooth sprocket) no porting, nothing. I can blow a 700 out of the whole 5-6 bike lengths but he runs me down around end of 4th gear and waves as he goes by...lol. I might need to go back to a 13 tooth sprocket, but I really can careless about dragging.

So it depends on how long the drag strip is.

BTW, this is in sand.

Don't know about a stock 450R, it'd be pretty close.

[kubitza123]

yeah the torque in the sand is where it counts. I'm only in dirt so on the dirt yours would probably give one a better run.

[All250R]

I'd like to point out the irony in comparing a 250 to a 700. My opinion is the 250 is lighter and handles better, so in the real world, the R should definitely be faster. I don't think the raptor is meant to be an athlete's bike. I think it's more of a ballsy cruiser type (?) than a 250R.

[250r4life]

the 700 will be faster... especially if you take the baffle out... if you put on a pipe, fiter, and fuel controller, it will run away from the 250r with a pipe & filter...

[screaminta]

Definetly a 250r with only pipe and filter, jetted, and stock bore would get beat by the 700. I would say a decently ported 265r with pipe filter, jetted, carb, reeds etc will run with a 700r in a street drag. Also, buy street drag I mean going from a roll probably about second to top end. That way traction or launch is taken out of the equation. I would like to know what a ported by C-Leigh 310 with all the goodies will do......if you wait till monday I'll let you guys know!!!!

[88 250r]

i was wondering how the 310 did aganist the 700

[screaminta]

I'll let you know I will probably be racing one this weekend!! I better not lose though haha. I don't care about top end though cause no one races at top speed. with my old setup which had a stock cylinder and all of the good stuff, I was even with a 450r with basic mods like exhaust filter, rev box and whatever is in the hrc kit. Once I got the uported 310 in there I blew him away, and now I will be fully ported to match my pipe. Also, that same 450r will run with the 700 no problem until top end, so i'm not too worried

[88 250r]

thats cool i was just wondering because my brother has a craptor 700 with pipe and power commander and air box running on 105 race gas and i want my 250r to leave him in the dust and i cant decide on a 310 or a 330 because i dont want to spend all that money and lose to a craptor

[JM317]

Originally posted by screaminta
Definetly a 250r with only pipe and filter, jetted, and stock bore would get beat by the 700. I would say a decently ported 265r with pipe filter, jetted, carb, reeds etc will run with a 700r in a street drag. Also, buy street drag I mean going from a roll probably about second to top end. That way traction or launch is taken out of the equation. I would like to know what a ported by C-Leigh 310 with all the goodies will do......if you wait till monday I'll let you guys know!!!!

I had a 265 just as described above with 13/39 gearing and I could beat up on a friend's 700 out of the hole but he would run me down and keep going after I hit the top of 3rd gear. Now that I have my KTM, he hides from me and doesn't want to ride.:devil:

[kubitza123]

well guys i have a few quads i'm trying to decide which one but ones a very very fresh 370 esr engine all the way and has 64 ponys on the back wheels complete with the recipte and dyno chart mmmm can you say bye bye raptor and 450's ;)

[Brauap]

I thought a 250cc 2 smoke = a 500cc 4 stroke

[450rJam]

10 years ago it did take about 2X the cc's for a thumper to hang with a pinger

they have came along way

I had a 87 250r w/ pipe,filter,jetted,hi comp.

bought an 06 450r w/hrc kit and they are not in the same ball park

I do miss the 250r (still out handled the 450r)

but when it was time to sale one, it wasnt a hard choice

a stock 700 rappy aint no punk,

it will take piston/porting and a free flowing system for the 250r to be close in a drag race

pull him onto a track and its a different story

[troybilt]

Originally posted by 450rJam
10 years ago it did take about 2X the cc's for a thumper to hang with a pinger

they have came along way

I had a 87 250r w/ pipe,filter,jetted,hi comp.

bought an 06 450r w/hrc kit and they are not in the same ball park

I do miss the 250r (still out handled the 450r)

but when it was time to sale one, it wasnt a hard choice

a stock 700 rappy aint no punk,

it will take piston/porting and a free flowing system for the 250r to be close in a drag race

pull him onto a track and its a different story

I was going to say the same thing, back when there was the 250X, 4-stroke technology, it'd take what seemed like 2x the cc's to get the same power. These new 4 strokes, circe 2004 with the yfz, etc... are a whole nother ballgame. I think you could make the argument that its cheaper to modify a 2 stroke, though.

[Firecat400EX]

Originally posted by 88 250r
i was wondering how the 310 did aganist the 700

my mid-range ported 310R smokes anything new, stock or piped. havent raced anything radical though

[All250R]

Originally posted by troybilt
I was going to say the same thing, back when there was the 250X, 4-stroke technology, it'd take what seemed like 2x the cc's to get the same power. These new 4 strokes, circe 2004 with the yfz, etc... are a whole nother ballgame. I think you could make the argument that its cheaper to modify a 2 stroke, though.
The technology has always been there. High output 4stroke technology is not new. 2strokes or 4strokes can be stretched out generally at the cost of reliability and into some pretty fun hp numbers. An XR motor doesn't require the high cost of ownership Honda GP motor does and we know Honda has been making those things and several other high output 4strokes for quite a while. So, it's not new.

2strokes are cheaper to manufactuer as well. In the most previous era it made sense to generally make the 2stroke the high hp choice and the 4stroke the reliable, fuel efficient choice. In the era before that 2stroke technology reached a reliability level acceptable for track use and in GP racing, 500cc 4strokes were within several seaons replaced by 500cc 2strokes. 250's as well. It really is tough to make a naturaly aspirated 4stroke compete against a contemporary, same sized 2stroke which is why even as high strung as a 450 is it still competes in what was a 250cc class.

An engine builder who's been around racing for a long time told me that the manufactueres don't make much money on the bike itself when we buy it new. They make most of their profit on the continued sale of parts. Most people will be more inclined to fix the vehicle several times before abandoning it for a new one. So if we're spending a lot on parts, high output 4strokes are also good for business.

The technology is emerging for clean burning 2strokes. Companies like EvinRude have motors that exceed the power, consumption, weight, cost of ownership/maint and even smog targets of their valve trained counterparts. What they say is, if the part isn't in there, you don't have to replace it.

Generally speaking what we see sponsored faces promoting is about profit. There is NO other reason companies exist, unless it's a non-profit. If it doesn't make business and profit sense, baring legislation we won't see the advertisements.

So yes, it's definitely cheaper to modify and make a 2stroke faster. It's also cheaper to clean up after the loss in reliability than a screamin 4stroke. Cams requires extensive R&D on expensive equipment wiht long turn around times between design, prototype and test; then repeat the process. The 2strokes that are leaving the market require a tuned pipe and port holes, neither of which are maintenance parts. Anyone with a dremmel can potentially make a 2stroke run better. Everyone else goes to the parts counter.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying 450's or the new 4strokes are no good. They're just not a technical revolution that many of us think they are. You have to remember, an advacement in technology is put forth based on a design problem. Power is not a design problem 2strokes have, efficiency and cleanliness is which just so happens to be where a 4stroke shines.

[Creech52]

you guys are making me nervous. I hope my R is more fun when its done. I like my raptor but it doesnt seem that fast to me.

[NickG5755]

they both go the same exact speed.

if you throw them out of a plane.


lol

[250r4life]

i agree with pretty much all of what you said all250r...

the only problem people have to remember as far as reliability goes, is youre not comparing a 2008 250r to a 2008 yfz or raptor... your comparing a 2008 raptor or yfz to a best case scenario 1989 250r... things wear out over time... i absolutely loved my 250r, but after years of hard riding it was starting to go... and if you throw in the warranty factor, that adds a whole new mess to the equation...

if it was possible for me to go out and buy a 2008 honda trx 265R (come at a 265 from the factory, with something similar to a Duncan 265PV cylinder) wiht some piggy back shocks, for the same price as my YFZ, i would go and get one...

[troybilt]

Originally posted by All250R
The technology has always been there. High output 4stroke technology is not new. 2strokes or 4strokes can be stretched out generally at the cost of reliability and into some pretty fun hp numbers. An XR motor doesn't require the high cost of ownership Honda GP motor does and we know Honda has been making those things and several other high output 4strokes for quite a while. So, it's not new.
.

I somewhat agree here, The technology of 4 or 5 valves per cylinder is nothing earth shattering but the LIGHTWEIGHT 4 stroke technology has never took a leap forward in the ATV industry until yamaha developed the yfz450 in 2004 or even the yzf426 hybrids, 2001-2002. That's my point, sure it existed in superbikes and Formula One, but not in ATV's or at least cost effectively and on production scale. 250X, 350X, 300EX, 350Warrior, or the 400EX etc.. aren't exacly off-the-charts "hightech". Those have the same tech that has been around since the 50's. And at that time the horsepower-to-displacement ratio (specific engine output - technical term) was almost double from a 2 stroke compared to those 4 strokes available at the time. Those 4 strokes were heavy and cumbersome. I've owned several over the years. That's why I still prefer my 250R. I can't bring myself to get a newer 4 stroke yet, because of my past preconceived notions

I'm waiting on someone to develop desmodromic valves or AVC, (active valve control) in an ATV. Then serious hp numbers are possible. Then I could see a 4 stroke that is smaller in displacement actually build more hp than a 2 stroke, due the ability to reach astronomical rpms in the range of 20,000.

[All250R]

Originally posted by troybilt
I somewhat agree here, The technology of 4 or 5 valves per cylinder is nothing earth shattering but the LIGHTWEIGHT 4 stroke technology has never took a leap forward in the ATV industry until yamaha developed the yfz450 in 2004 or even the yzf426 hybrids, 2001-2002. That's my point, sure it existed in superbikes and Formula One, but not in ATV's or at least cost effectively and on production scale. 250X, 350X, 300EX, 350Warrior, or the 400EX etc.. aren't exacly off-the-charts "hightech". Those have the same tech that has been around since the 50's. And at that time the horsepower-to-displacement ratio (specific engine output - technical term) was almost double from a 2 stroke compared to those 4 strokes available at the time. Those 4 strokes were heavy and cumbersome. I've owned several over the years. That's why I still prefer my 250R. I can't bring myself to get a newer 4 stroke yet, because of my past preconceived notions

I'm waiting on someone to develop desmodromic valves or AVC, (active valve control) in an ATV. Then serious hp numbers are possible. Then I could see a 4 stroke that is smaller in displacement actually build more hp than a 2 stroke, due the ability to reach astronomical rpms in the range of 20,000.

Well new technology and new application of the technology are two different things though right? I know what you're saying though, it's easy to simply call it new technology. When people say that though they might then conclude (erroneously) that the reason 2strokes are out of the market is because of "new technology". After all, in most cases "new technology" replaces old because it's "better", like the DVD and VHS. But again, a change in application/technology is put forth by a problem. We know what problems DVD's solve over the VHS. If that premise is true then what "problem" were engine manufacturers facing in the 90's that prompted Honda to eliminate not just some, but their entire 2stroke lineup? (rhetorical question)

If we see 4strokes putting out the same or better power to weight and displacement ratios as 2strokes one day, from a power only perspective does that make it a better technological design?

[troybilt]

Originally posted by All250R

If we see 4strokes putting out the same or better power to weight and displacement ratios as 2strokes one day, from a power only perspective does that make it a better technological design?

I hear that. Maybe my tone seems like I'm pro-4 strokes, on the contrary, my point is it takes serious tech to even compete with a 2 stroke which are a lot simplier. A few years back I was investigating in building a 2 stroke V8 just for shat's and giggles, from a detroit diesel which are 2 stroke BTW. Actually looking at powering a 24ft powerboat that I had at the time.

Fact is the biggest problem with 2 strokes is emissions. 2 strokes have proven to be the most efficient (edit: IC) engines in the world, the large container vessels and pumping stations use V16 2 strokes that are in the neighborhood of 50% efficient, the most efficient 4 stroke was measured at 43%.

I have heard of a few 2 strokes, Tanaka, Evinrude like you mentioned, that are as clean as the 4 strokes today, so hopefully we may see 2 strokes back in our quads but I wouldn't bet the ranch on it.

[atcsteve]

Just do the 310 or 330!I have both and both will beat piped 700 in a 300ft sand drag all day long!!The bolt-on 330 is a great choice,no case work,just bolt on and go!!Good luck!

[screaminta]

Ok, this is kinda funny but I will share. We were out racing this weekend (on the road to be fair) with my bike( ported 310) a stock yfz450 and a stock 700r and a bunch of other slower bikes. I raced the 700r with me riding the 450 and was running pretty much dead even with him. The 450 has a one tooth smaller than stock front sprocket so i know with a stock sprocket I would have beat him cause I was shifting like an animal then. Then, I raced the 450 with someone else riding it who I know cant shift as fast as I can and I blew the doors off of him with my 310. Needless to say, the guy with the 700r wouldn't race me after that HAHA! I called him a P***y and we kept on riding the trails take that as you will. Also, my motor is brand new and I just got done putting heat cycles on it the night before. I know it was a little too early to be beating on her, and I was still pig rich for break in!!!

[All250R]

I don't know why we all have this competitive streak that asks the question, which is "better" or which dick is "bigger" as if it actually answers an important question. The answer of which is better is an individual preference and what the bike was design and is being used for. We all know this intellectually, but for some reason we want to think the bike that wins a drag race is "better" somehow and the owner is the coolest and can get more chicks. Anyway, just thought I'd throw that in there. Ride what your body and brain likes when you're on it and screw who wins pinned in top gear. That's the key to happiness. If p*ssy is what you're after build a drag bike and get a bunch of chicks to watch the race. Otherwise impressing dudes doesn't really bear any important fruit, know what I mean? The percentage of time people ride pinned in top gear is pretty minimal as we all know.

[screaminta]

First of all you need to relax all250r. I wasn't "pinned" at top speed we were dragging next to eachother through the gears and who ever was pulling away faster won. Second of all my friend was the one talking smack on 250r's so I just represented them and proved that a 20+ year old design still can dominate in the engine class, not just handling as we all know. Third, if you read my post after we got done fooling around with the drag racing we all went back onto the trail were we were riding as a group and eve 300ex's were with us. We are all friends and the p***y remark was more toward that he was talking bad on my r then wouldn't even represent his own kind. So with that said know your facts before you go raggin on someone.

[All250R]

Dude, I'm just making fun of all of us not you. I'm relaxed cause honestly I wasn't even talking to you. Alright? Sh*t.

[screaminta]

Aright thats fine, I just felt kinda singled out u know. Don't worry cause when ppl say "oh u only ride a 250" I say yeah but I'll put it up against any thing u got then they laugh until they find out in person...thats when I start laughin hahaha

[All250R]

Ya, that's definitely cool. Tell em how much you spend in valve jobs after you race em too. haha