DS450's at Unadilla...

[400exrider707]

They seemed pretty quick, Lawson took first place in moto #1 on his machine and he had a very good lead going, but the interesting story came on moto #2...

The rain hit hard and the track was a muddy mess. Nearly every can-am out on the field started smoking immensely, and all of them smelled like burning anti-freeze when they drove by. Now obviously the conditions played into this... plugged radiators with the mud and the constant wheel spinning without as much forward movement, but the can-ams were the only quads smoking out there. I think I saw one Honda slightly smoking, but every single pro can-am was smoking bad. At one point a can-am rider stalled on the last lap after making contact with another rider. He tried restarting which took about 15 seconds and when it fired up blue smoke poured out of the exhaust.

Is this something that is common among the can-ams? They looked rather impressive on the track, other than these problems. I know the conditions aided in this, but they were the only quads out there smoking like this. They all finished the race, but they were all smoking like this by about the half way point. Any thoughts?

[Pappy]

They dont like to run hot, the gncc boys know all about this and the mx guys got to see what the mud does to them at the last 2 rounds!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3047/2563294783_d165940f01_b.jpg

[Drewltr450]

yea they defffinetly dont like to run hot. i dont remember were but i saw a picture of some can-am race bikes and they had cut the bumper in half had fins and an oversized radiator on there bike. it was qwight a site to see.

[Drewltr450]

<a href="http://s59.photobucket.com/albums/g295/sledporn99/?action=view&current=can-am-2008-ama-pro-atv-02-jeremy-l.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g295/sledporn99/can-am-2008-ama-pro-atv-02-jeremy-l.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a> it miht not be a bumper cut in half but is deffinetly small.

[Flynbryan19]

Its really quite simple. The people that designed the ds450 had a MAJOR brain fart and designed the radiator in front of the frame rails. If they would have spent any of their R&D time thinking about how this would affect the machine during race conditions it would have been obvious to them that it would never work.

Its really a shame too. I LOVE the looks of the machine. It just sucks that they can only do good in dry conditions. At the last GNCC it was actually dry for a change and they had their best finish of the year. Coincidence? I think not. ;)

[400exrider707]

I had heard this before, but got to see it first hand at unadilla. I wouldn't be surprised if someone figures out a way to mount the radiator somewhere else.

[ds450racer]

weve had some REALLY wet races over here and the bike have been running fine. No smoke, just keeps going like usual.

[Flynbryan19]

Originally posted by ds450racer
weve had some REALLY wet races over here and the bike have been running fine. No smoke, just keeps going like usual.

Go enter a 2hr gncc race and see how it does. ;)

I also wonder if the pro gncc guys are trying to coax too much hp out of them at the sacrifice of reliability. I would think this far into the series though if that were the case they would have learned from their lesson. I do know they need to change their track record or else you will not see anyone on a DS at a GNCC unless they're sponsored by them. No one wants a quad that can't even finish a race. :(

[mike_1985]

I dont know how them guys run their ds but mine gets ridden hard for 2 hours on track then i drive it home full thortlle for another hour and it never gave me no problems . Also now i done 1500miles its finally faster than the raptor 700 , wheelies like a dream and jumps like no other . It finally has the same top speed as the 700 :) . I really dont know why those guys have so many problems mine just gets better and better :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

[ThePhantomRider]

Here's the real deal on the DS' "smoking" issues....

Now I will not refute the observation made about the one that stalled and when started puffed blue smoke that probably did happen and can happen.

Here's the deal, when the DS gets heated up under racing conditions, and especially when you get mud caked up in the radiator, it will run hot....not failure hot, but hot enough to cause the overflow bottle to start to spit coolant out, and where does it go???? Right on to the head. 99% of the steam or "smoke" you actually see is just that, steam from the overflow squirtin the motor. Now this does look bad and perhaps they need to address this aesthetically, but the last time one of race motors did that, they pulled it apart after the race and verified nothing was wrong with the motor, just excess coolant spraying the head.

Again, not sayin the DS is failureproof, but there is a valid explanation to most of the "smoking motors" people have seen.


TPR

[Flynbryan19]

Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
Here's the real deal on the DS' "smoking" issues....

Now I will not refute the observation made about the one that stalled and when started puffed blue smoke that probably did happen and can happen.

Here's the deal, when the DS gets heated up under racing conditions, and especially when you get mud caked up in the radiator, it will run hot....not failure hot, but hot enough to cause the overflow bottle to start to spit coolant out, and where does it go???? Right on to the head. 99% of the steam or "smoke" you actually see is just that, steam from the overflow squirtin the motor. Now this does look bad and perhaps they need to address this aesthetically, but the last time one of race motors did that, they pulled it apart after the race and verified nothing was wrong with the motor, just excess coolant spraying the head.

Again, not sayin the DS is failureproof, but there is a valid explanation to most of the "smoking motors" people have seen.


TPR

But, the motors are FAILING at the gncc's. Not just smoking. Radiator placement is a poor design, plain and simple. These quads were designed to be "race quads" were they not? They should not be overheating and quiting. Over heating is obviously an issue.

I was just at the NC gncc this weekend and not only do they have oversized radiators, but also oil coolers in front of the radiators. They tape over the radiators as well in an attempt to keep them from getting clogged up. Its obvious that it was a poor design. :(

[ThePhantomRider]

The design is not poor and the placement was intentional. Having the radiator out front works for 2 reasons. 1) It does in fact get cooler less turbulent air in it's stock form for free riding than others do further back. 2) This also allowed them to balance the quad to their advantage as well. Place it further back and you get a very light front end....not good.

Now what they didn't anticipate and probably should have is that with standard aftermarket bumpers, you end up with diminished airflow to the radiator as the air is pushed around the rad by the bumper. Now one may ask how a tube bumper can do this and aerodynamically it's very easy. Every object will create a vacuum behind itself when pushed through the air. It's shape and size will determine the size and depth of the vacuum. Where the standard bumper style works for other quads, since they only change mounting location for each new model, they never take into account how far forward or back the air target really is. That's why they chopped or gutted the bumper. They need a place to mount a plate but it causes all kinds of aero issues.

Now add to that mud and sure you have a problem. Not one insurmountable but one that typically will get sorted out by the end of the first year.

Believe me, ATV's are less aerodynamic than a brick. what little flow you can control can make a big difference in what you can and can't do.


TPR

[ds450racer]

Flynbryan19 youve got to remember. This is the first year these bikes have been raced. I know that theyve spent 5 hears making them but they never raced them at real motos while building it. Every bike will have its problems in the first year.

[Flynbryan19]

Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
The design is not poor and the placement was intentional. Having the radiator out front works for 2 reasons. 1) It does in fact get cooler less turbulent air in it's stock form for free riding than others do further back. 2) This also allowed them to balance the quad to their advantage as well. Place it further back and you get a very light front end....not good.

Now what they didn't anticipate and probably should have is that with standard aftermarket bumpers, you end up with diminished airflow to the radiator as the air is pushed around the rad by the bumper. Now one may ask how a tube bumper can do this and aerodynamically it's very easy. Every object will create a vacuum behind itself when pushed through the air. It's shape and size will determine the size and depth of the vacuum. Where the standard bumper style works for other quads, since they only change mounting location for each new model, they never take into account how far forward or back the air target really is. That's why they chopped or gutted the bumper. They need a place to mount a plate but it causes all kinds of aero issues.

Now add to that mud and sure you have a problem. Not one insurmountable but one that typically will get sorted out by the end of the first year.

Believe me, ATV's are less aerodynamic than a brick. what little flow you can control can make a big difference in what you can and can't do.


TPR

lol, so you spent all that time typing first to say that you disagreed with me, only to say at the end that you do agree with me? The point behind why they put the radiator out front is irrelivant. The FACT that its placement puts it at a blatant disadvantage is VERY relivant. ;) I understand what they were trying to do, but by trying to fix one problem, they created a bigger one. Its obvious that the other quads do fine with the radiator mounted behind the frame. I would say it would probably be a good idea to go back to that design.

I understand its a first year quad, and to be honest, I REALLY like the looks of the quad and think most of the design ideas are very good. They will just have to finish alot more races before they could convince me to buy one.

[joedirt]

They spent 5 years designing and testing this quad and didn't realize the radiator would get mud in it with it being in the front of the quad?
Can-Am needs to fire some people.

[Mr. Big Time]

Josh Fredericks took first place at Round 1 of the worcs and it looked like they were going submarine racing or something, and that is a 90 min race. It sounds like the the GNCC team needs some new mechanics. Heres a video of the race....

http://www.worcsracing.com/Videos/atv_final_round1.html

[joedirt]

Originally posted by Mr. Big Time
Josh Fredericks took first place at Round 1 of the worcs and it looked like they were going submarine racing or something, and that is a 90 min race. It sounds like the the GNCC team needs some new mechanics. Heres a video of the race....

http://www.worcsracing.com/Videos/atv_final_round1.html
I give those guys a lot of credit for racing in that crap but that was no GNCC. When you splash thru that much water it helps to wash the heavy mud off and keep the engine somewhat cool. I didn't see no trees, roots,rocks, or hills, just a flooded mx track.

[Mr. Big Time]

Well you have never been to Washington then, it's got alot of trees and roots and ruts, and when it rains, which ironicly it always seems to do during a worcs race, it is freakin' muddy.

NO, WORCS is nothing like a GNCC, everybody knows that, but they certainly go through alot of mud, the race promoter loves it to be muddy for the racers.

Yes, BRP/CAN-AM has spent alot of time making this quad, but they can't make it better or perfect with out having some pro's race the piss out of it, in a real hardcore race. But I would have to say for being a first year quad, they sure seem to run good to me. I love mine, and wouldn't trade it for anything. At least Can-Am has taken the time and money and invested into getting some top pro's and good people to test them, work on them, and ride the piss out of them.

[Pappy]

From what I understand, several of the engines that have let go in the GNCC's have not been related to the mud. I wont go into detail because I did not get every last detail and lord knows how you guys can be if someone misses something...lol



Josh Fredricks will be running the Somerset round of the GNCC's next weekend, I will be waiting to hear how he feels the two series match up...lol

Mr. Fredericks...meet Pennslyvania rock and tree:eek2:

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by Pappy
From what I understand, several of the engines that have let go in the GNCC's have not been related to the mud. I wont go into detail because I did not get every last detail and lord knows how you guys can be if someone misses something...lol



Josh Fredricks will be running the Somerset round of the GNCC's next weekend, I will be waiting to hear how he feels the two series match up...lol

Mr. Fredericks...meet Pennslyvania rock and tree:eek2:
Josh HATES trees, so this should prove to be interesting.:p

Even Josh has experienced some of the overheating, I know a few of them have ..but things seem to be running much better when we were at Hollister ,even in 100+ degree weather..
Now the seat staying on was a dif .story!! LOL


Our series has raced in just about every type of terrain this season,including crazy weather including flooding and a little snowcross.
Also...
that video didnt show alll the backcountry where I was standing waist deep.
The one good thing about that round was most of it was wet ,not thick mud-unlike Monticello,Utah iin recent years past or Payette , Idaho 2007 where the mud clinged bigtime. As it stood,almost all the racersr who finished that WORCS race ended up having to have fully built motors and approx. 50% of the riders never even got to finish




Is Josh taking his own quad or is he going to end up with a loaner for the wk end?
Hopefully hes set up so he can race more to his own potential.

[nvrpmx]

The motoworks team is going and the quads will be set up for GNCC.We will also be racing the atva the following weekend.

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by nvrpmx
The motoworks team is going and the quads will be set up for GNCC.We will also be racing the atva the following weekend.
Thats good to hear. Is this Dillon?
Hows all the training going?? You will have to post on how the experience was if it is , Id love to hear all about it .

See you in Aug. :)

[Mr. Big Time]

Originally posted by QuadJunkies
Josh HATES trees, so this should prove to be interesting.:p

Even Josh has experienced some of the overheating, I know a few of them have ..but things seem to be running much better when we were at Hollister ,even in 100+ degree weather..
Now the seat staying on was a dif .story!! LOL

It's not the hot weather that really overheats them, it's generally all the damn mud cloging up the radiator.

[joedirt]

Originally posted by QuadJunkies
Josh HATES trees, so this should prove to be interesting.:p

Even Josh has experienced some of the overheating, I know a few of them have ..but things seem to be running much better when we were at Hollister ,even in 100+ degree weather..
Now the seat staying on was a dif .story!! LOL


Our series has raced in just about every type of terrain this season,including crazy weather including flooding and a little snowcross.
Also...
that video didnt show alll the backcountry where I was standing waist deep.
The one good thing about that round was most of it was wet ,not thick mud-unlike Monticello,Utah iin recent years past or Payette , Idaho 2007 where the mud clinged bigtime. As it stood,almost all the racersr who finished that WORCS race ended up having to have fully built motors and approx. 50% of the riders never even got to finish




Is Josh taking his own quad or is he going to end up with a loaner for the wk end?
Hopefully hes set up so he can race more to his own potential.

He finished...16th in pro, 20th overall.

[QuadJunkies]

I seen that.
Zimmerman - I see you done well-congrats!! Cant wait to hear about it and how you liked it out there.
Glad to see that some of the riders have been able to race both East and West coast to experience it all.

Hope to meet some of the East Coast riders this season. :)I heard we might get a few before the seasons over.

[Pappy]

Jarrod McClure will be racing the worcs race in washington state I beleive...get his trophy ready:devil:

[QuadJunkies]

Sweet :devil:
Endurocross is that Round as well. The MX mix is pretty cool on that track too.Thats what I really love about WORCS,you have to have talent in BOTH styles of racing.

So how did the Can Am's hold up in PA?
I sure hope someday I can come out and check out a GNCC. :(

[Pappy]

2 of them finished decent, 1 6th and 1 10th, the others watched most of the race from the pits.


the gncc series has many races that incorperate an mx section, and most of the pro class can air it out and hold their own

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3262/2633189746_afe57d925b_o.jpg

[Flynbryan19]

Heard one of the can-am boys ripped their skid plate and mounts clean off.....:eek: Thats a shame. That has nothing to do with Can-am, but yet it kept him from finishing the race. Hopefully next round......:ermm:

[Pappy]

Motoworks quads at BPG

Dan Harris riding Frederick's quad

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8622360@N03/2654627034/" title="canam 120 by mycamerahatesme, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3101/2654627034_a72bf58111_o.jpg" width="977" height="1200" alt="canam 120" /></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8622360@N03/2653733593/" title="canam 284 by mycamerahatesme, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3030/2653733593_a0f353b96a_o.jpg" width="1200" height="720" alt="canam 284" /></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8622360@N03/2653812065/" title="canam 133 by mycamerahatesme, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3108/2653812065_b7984f943e_o.jpg" width="1200" height="804" alt="canam 133" /></a>

[Mr. Big Time]

How come Josh didn't ride his quad?

[Pappy]

Josh flew back home after the GNCC race. Motoworks was kind enough to allow us some seat time on the quad for an upcoming article

[QuadJunkies]

Those shots are tight..:cool: