Reliability Wanted: 450R or more $$ into 250R?

[Jer250R]

so, i may have gotten some water into my engine, and I may have ridden it a bit hard, and I may have run it a bit lean, but I now have a quarter sized hole in my piston. I'm thinking I've only driven it about 10 hours since the last piston.

I have the money to buy a used 450r and strongly considering it...however if you guys can convince me otherwise I'd be willing to dump a little more money into the 250 if I can make it a little less likely to die in the woods and leave me walking for a couple hours in motocross boots :(

the bike is an 87, with an 86 engine. currently stock cylinder at 67.5mm with some previous porting work. the carb is sketchy, leaking gas on my garage floor overnight and occasionally flooding out the overflow when riding. it has a fmf sst pipe and powercore silencer. i have the esr ignition kit.

i just want something that is fast, will wheelie and jump well but mostly high speed trail riding.

where is the best place to spend the money? should i get a new carb and just bore to 68mm and stay as is, or would a 265/310/330 kit be a better choice so i wouldn't have to ride it as hard and maybe have more forgiveness? i was looking at the CT kit that comes with carb, pipe, and all that...would that be a good choice? or just keep the 250R for occasional fun and buy a 450r?

[mineralgrey01gt]

how tight are the trails? My 250r is EXTREMELY strong on bottom end and its just a stock bore on mine with very very minor port work. Look at my mods in my sig if you want to know what kind of set up I have

I say put the money in the 250r. Get a good carb, 38mm airstryker is a very good choice. Also if I was you, I would find a stock cylinder with no port work and send it to Neil @ C-Leigh Racing and have him port it. Ive heard numerous good things about his port jobs

[86 Quad R]

agreed........... put ya money back into the R. i can vouch for neils porting. it well worth the money spent. as suggested i'd invest in a good quality carb and depending on how/where you ride you may wanna get a 35mm a/s.

if you dont already know how. do your home work and learn to do a leakdown test and plug chopping.

im a lil skeptical as to whether or not water was the culprit to the damage. as water intake will instantly kill the engine. all of my R's are built for creeks and sand bars and i take in water on occasion and have never had it to cause failure.

[Aceman]

It may just be me but.....maybe if you took a little more care of your engine you wouldn't have problems. Is it really the 250r's fault? Would a 450R have faired any better?

Is it a good idea to spend more money on a big bore kit that may end up with same fate?

[PeanutButta]

fix the R

[Flyin_250r]

I would keep the 250r and sink some money into it. Imagine what the bill would be like if you had this problem with a 450r? Top ends on 250rs are alot cheaper than the 4 strokes. Like Aceman said.... its all how you maintain them.

[timritchieblue]

i was creek riding the other day, sucked in some water, had to pull start it, went back home to change the oil. oil was a little gray, put new oil in, good as new. these things are tough, if you maintain them???

[Fear250r]

My bike has always been very reliable. It was only on the second bore, no port work and I never had a problem with it. I've had the same piston in it for probably 3-4 years. I hadn't been riding a whole lot in the past couple, but when I went out to the garage, she always fired up within a few kicks. I'm only now just putting a big bore in her. Had my cylinder done by Neil, looks awesome and can't wait to try it. I guess what I'm saying is, put some money into the R, just what everyone else has said!

[Jer250R]

its a good possibility like i said it was running way too lean for a while, and the day it blew up i was being especially hard on it trying to get back to my truck after my friend fell and broke his thumb. drained the oil today and it was pretty milky, the piston was very white as well, so agreed, not sure water was the culprit or not.

so a good fresh start would be the consensus then? good carb, stick with the cylinder i have now, try to stay on top of maintenence.

the 38 a/s seem to be the best all around choice?

i ride mainly tight trails in woods, but usually run some fire roads pretty fast to get to them with occasional pit riding and hills.

i wouldn't mind if it was a bit faster, but a good carb and tune might help that...

[atvmxr]

stick with the 250r ;)

[baldathoR]

Water is probably going to have the same affect on either quad.

As for running it hard, you're going to be hard pressed to find a motor that wants to run as hard as a 250r.

Why was it lean?

Were you running it lean intentionally?

[Jer250R]

Originally posted by baldathoR

Why was it lean?

Were you running it lean intentionally?

no, i was running it 40:1 as i assumed i should have been, but 32:1 probably would have been a better choice. plus i think the carb being hit or miss may not have helped matters.

i'm thinking i may just go the new carb/rebuild route for now and maybe get a used 450r as a backup bike. i have very few chances to ride, and parts take a long time to get here so waiting on rebuilds is not an option I enjoy. right now the bike died sunday and it likely won't be ready to run again until next weekend at the earliest, probably the weekend after...i just hate having a bike that i can't use while the friends all go out...luckily my friend can't ride with his cast, so at least 2 of us will be playing video games while everyone else is out :)

where is the best place to get a new carb? and which is best all arounder, especially if i go big bore later on? oh, and my bike is fast, it destroys my friends 400ex's and banshees, but my brother is going to have his quadzilla ready to ride soon, and I want to be able to hang, which is why the big bore question is coming up :)

[TheNewn]

From what i've read, i think you should fix that R's issues and keep it without getting a 450R.

Keep the stock jug and make sure the carb has the correct jetting (i'd also do what you said and get the 38mm airstriker).

Do a rebuild using the stock jug and that carb, and it should be very reliable. And lets face it, its not a matter of IF but WHEN it ever breaks down and needs a top end again, it will be a cheap fix.

I think a 450R would be a step DOWN in reliability. With a giant step UP in rebuild costs.

If you're going to get a back up bike, why not get a 400EX? Fast enough to do something stupid on, and reliable as all hell, with a HUGE abundance of cheap parts available if it does happen to brake down. It's a bike that will nearly ALWAYS be running when your main bike is not. Which in my opinion, you couldn't say for the 450R.

Kinda rabbling on, but i think you get the point.

[TheNewn]

I've decided to ramble a bit more, if you don't mind.

With the money you save buying a 400EX vs a 450R (which should be considerable), you could do several things to the 400EX to make it a more comfortable/enjoyable ride, steering stabilizer, tires, nerf bars. things like that.

Lets face it, the 250R should be for speed, the 400EX should be "ol' reliable".

And as a last point that crossed my mind, you could buy a 400EX with a lot of nice after market things on it for still less than the price of a 450R.

'kay i think im done.

[Jer250R]

hmmmmm....very good point.

was talking with a friend today and he was kind of making the same point but in a different way...saying that if i got a 450r i probably wouldn't want to drive the 250 anymore because they are so similar...a 400ex would definately leave me wanting to drive the 250 :)

[norcalduner]

Save the R:p Buy a 310 kit and a 38 a/s carb. It will be a whole new beast;)

[Motofool250r]

change that POS carb.

get a 38mm air stryker, good for woods and mx i have a 39mm keihin carb on mine , got mine from ESR 180$ comes with a jet kit.

i would reccomend a couple things if you have your cylinder off i would have the head o-ringed and get about 4 sets of spare o rings.

some port work and some new reeds would be a good idea if the money is there.

and with a larger carb you will have one problem the rubber boot that bolts to your reeds is designed i think for a 34mm carb so if its old and cracking likely you will crack it shoving the larger carb on there. a new one is 28$ through servicehonda.com or you can buy the oversized one from UPP for 55$ made for larger carbs and more durable then stock.

running 40-1 was likely not your lean problem. the oil mixture lubricates your crank shaft and does not make your bike melt holes in pistons if you ran 70:1 its your jet sizing.

you want a carmel brown color on the spark plug after 3-4gallons of gas and good hard riding.

[Jer250R]

thanks for the recommendations, I'll definately be doing all that. should I get a new exhaust too while I'm at it, or is the FMF ok?

Another question...since the piston now has a quarter sized hole in it, and there was aluminum in the intake tract, water jacket, etc, should i crack the cases and clean that all up? I assume there is metal in the case huh?

Thanks again!

[Motofool250r]

i would install some new crank bearings if you have the ability to.

and i would clean all alumium in foreign areas for sure.

the FMF pipes in my experionce on the 250r motor suck!

i race 2 wheelers for years and FMF knew what they were doing and i loved their pipes but on this machine at hand the ESR pipes the TRX5 is about the best you can buy.

i had an fmf on my bike when i got it and id imagine i gained 3-4 horse with the esr trx5

[Jer250R]

so would this be a decent price and the right carb:
ebay link (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_ATV-Parts-Accessories__HONDA-TRX250R-38PWK-KEIHIN-CARB-TRX-250R-38-PWK-KIT_W0QQitemZ320258305134QQadnZATVQ20PartsQ20Q26Q2 0AccessoriesQQadiZ2869QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item3202 58305134&)

and any of these motors seem like a good deal?

pv265 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_ATV-Parts-Accessories__Honda-250r-trx250r-265-powervalve-motor_W0QQitemZ300228934087QQadnZATVQ20PartsQ20Q26 Q20AccessoriesQQadiZ2869QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item30 0228934087&)
pv350 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_ATV-Parts-Accessories__1989-Honda-TRX250r-CT350-power-vavle_W0QQitemZ250252835531QQadnZATVQ20PartsQ20Q26 Q20AccessoriesQQadiZ2869QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item25 0252835531&)
ESR310 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_ATV-Parts-Accessories__ESR-Race-Honda-TRX-250r-TRX250r-310-Motor-Engine_W0QQitemZ120265577181QQadnZATVQ20PartsQ20Q2 6Q20AccessoriesQQadiZ2869QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item1 20265577181&)

[Flyin_250r]

none of those links work......

[Jer250R]

should be fixed now, thanks for the heads up...dunno what happened there...

[Motofool250r]

if i was buying a carb id just order one from ESR brand new you get like 8 jets at 6$ each thats a pretty good deal. you also order the throttle cable from them also which is hard to find unless you know the right # from motion pro.

180$ for carb and 18$ for cable(retail 40$)

[CorvetteZ06]

get the carb brand new, call magic racing, for 200 you get the carb, and the correct brand new motion pro cable. if your primarily riding trails, i would go with the 36mm a/s. if you want more top end, go with the 38mm a/s. either way, excellent choices. Get a top end close to stock, and send it to c-leigh, have it bored the next size up, and get a nice reliable low end port job. If i was you, and you really want 100% reliabilty, send the whole motor to c-leigh and have him go thjrough the bottom end. after everything is said and done, you'll still be much cheaper than buuying a 450R, and have a rock solid motor.

[LONG-ROD]

I would say learn as much as you can about a 2-stroke engin. How it works is critical knowledge if you want it reliable. You can learn alot at Duncan Raceing web page. Once you have learned this and I mean really learned it. Purchace a couple hundred in tools, like preasure tester, compression tester, fly wheel puller, and tourge wrench. Next tear your motor down and rebuild it from bottom to top. with a 0new crank, bearings, seals, gaskets, and CT or Duncan doing the top end, with a new billet head and dome you are well under a $1000. Compare that to a 450r rebuild, which I beleive will have to be done more offten. Also read about jetting Allen at CT or Lauren at Duncan will get you real close on jetting if they do your top end and give them additional info. I just had Allen help me build my 310 and am in the procces of lauren doing my stock cylinder, and learned threw it that just cause it is ported does not mean it is helping, sometimes a bad port job can really hurt a motor. If you follow Ct or Duncan raceing instructions you should have a fast solid bike for years to come, and a Fat wallet in the end.

[LONG-ROD]

Don't buy used motors people don't sell good motors, you will just end up rebuilding it due to haveing no idea what it truly is bottom to top, just build your current one, unless you are an exsperienced motor person stay away from power valve motors just another part, and you thought your motor was fast before. also Paul Turner pipes are very good.

[CorvetteZ06]

Originally posted by LONG-ROD
Don't buy used motors people don't sell good motors, you will just end up rebuilding it due to haveing no idea what it truly is bottom to top, just build your current one, unless you are an exsperienced motor person stay away from power valve motors just another part, and you thought your motor was fast before. also Paul Turner pipes are very good.

why are you saying to stay away from powervalve motors? The powervalve cylinders from Duncan, CT, etc... are just as reliable as a non powervalve top end.

[adam833]

I am gonna say something different..
I had a trx 450r right before I got the 250r. I hated the 450r sooo much I sold it within 10 days because I am so used to 2 strokes and found it to be a bit boring...BUT..if you are mainly using it for woods and tight trails I think ud be better off with a 450r or 400ex. My 250r is a fresh stock build and I have a 38mm a/s carb and a esr trx6 low end pipe for trails. I think my stock 450r was better in the tight trails and woods..Had alot more torgue and low end. I do not really like the 250r for tight or wooded trails. I think in tight spacess the R is LESS enjoyable..
(mInd you I hate 4 strokes with a passion) THe sound is just god awful and they feel so much more heavier. If I was going to be going through heavy mud and puddles and rocks and tight trails I would rather be on a 450r
As far as open fields, open trails, mx and anything else the 250r is hands down the best. So I say keep the R and get the 450r

[Motofool250r]

when tuned right powervalves are awesome. but usually expensive to get into unless used.

[LONG-ROD]

I know I never said they where not as reliable, but if you don't understand the basic 2 stroke engin why throw in another mix in the equation thats all, I am all for the power valve motors.

[Jer250R]

ok, finally got around to getting this thing back together. decided to spend some more coin on the 250 and forget the 450 for now. i ordered a new piston/rings, gasket set, 38mm a/s carb, esr trx5 center mount pipe, and the esr airbox eliminator kit.

hopefully i'll be able to get a bit more performance but mostly i'm hoping if everything that makes it run (i have the esr cr ignition, electrics) is brand new then it should run well, idle, and start easy. really, the most frustrating part with the bike was the non-idling and hard starting...i think if it runs smooth and clean i'll be much happier to keep it.

will i notice much improvement over stock carb, crap jetting, and fmf exhaust?

keep the 250r, fix the motor up get suspension and you have a pretty bad a** quad

[All250R]

Originally posted by Jer250R
ok, finally got around to getting this thing back together. decided to spend some more coin on the 250 and forget the 450 for now. i ordered a new piston/rings, gasket set, 38mm a/s carb, esr trx5 center mount pipe, and the esr airbox eliminator kit.

hopefully i'll be able to get a bit more performance but mostly i'm hoping if everything that makes it run (i have the esr cr ignition, electrics) is brand new then it should run well, idle, and start easy. really, the most frustrating part with the bike was the non-idling and hard starting...i think if it runs smooth and clean i'll be much happier to keep it.

will i notice much improvement over stock carb, crap jetting, and fmf exhaust?
Yea, I think you should. THe stock PJ carb is notorious for idling problems. You may need to play with slow jet in the 38 if you're having trouble idling with that, but it's just a one time setup thing if an idling problem is what you're mostly trying to chase away.

Do check your reeds while you have the intake off. If there are gaps under the reeds, it will always be a pain to start. Tightning that up alone can mean the difference between 10 kicks and 1.

[Jer250R]

i'm not 100% sure what they should look like, if i get a chance i'll post a picture later tonight and hopefully someone can tell me if they need to be replaced.

thanks again

[NickG5755]

if you look through the carb side of the reedcage and you can see daylight coming through they need to be replaced.

[Jer250R]

forgot to update this...

got the bike all back together, ESR exhaust looks amazing and works great too and the carb definately made a huge difference. starts right up now and almost idles.

driving is way different then before...i didn't notice much improvement in power for the first few minutes until i realized i was only giving 3/4 throttle :) wow, it is significantly faster now at full throttle!

one problem though is a mad vibration i'm getting. i custom install some nerfs that meant welding them to the footpegs, so they may be transferring some vibration, but i think the main thing is the exhaust is a lot tighter fitting so i added an extra rubber grommet to the front exhaust mount and that helped a lot, but i've still got a lot of vibes in the grips and pegs. any ideas? maybe i forgot to tighten the crank down lol.

here is a recent pic, although i've ghetto painted the wheels black since then to match the rock guarded nerfs and front bumper:
http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/5365/rr11hw9.jpg

forgot to mention though..i'm picking up a brand new Can-Am DS 450 today :) not sure whats going to happen with the R

[All250R]

Originally posted by Jer250R
one problem though is a mad vibration i'm getting. i custom install some nerfs that meant welding them to the footpegs, so they may be transferring some vibration, but i think the main thing is the exhaust is a lot tighter fitting so i added an extra rubber grommet to the front exhaust mount and that helped a lot, but i've still got a lot of vibes in the grips and pegs. any ideas? maybe i forgot to tighten the crank down lol.

Are you serious man? You might have forgotten to tighten the crank bolt? I don't suppose you used a torque wrench for the rest of the engine...

You never mentioned if you replaced the mains or not, but it sounds like you at least had the clutch cover off. You need to look at the alignment dots for the counterbalancer. There are 3 of them. One on the crank (if OEM), one on the crank gear and one on the counterbalancer gear. They all need to line up or you'll have weird vibration problems.

Oh and by the way, the cake you spend on that 450 can buy a lot of new OEM parts for the R and remove the need and look of ghetto paint. :blah:

By the way too, not to be turd to you, but if you're having moderate success with working on the 2stroke engine, with the 450 you might find yourself one day really standing on your penis. There are a lot more parts and so room for mistakes. You know what I'm saying.
J

[Jer250R]

the crank thing was a joke, and i have a decent mechanical background, however i did not know about the counter-balancer thing, i'll have to re-check that. thanks for the input.

i won't take the rest personally because you don't know me and its the internet, so i'd probably respond as sarcastically as you.

the DS works ridiculous; pretty much solves all my problems so i think i'll be selling the 250. we'll see though, i may miss the 2 stroke in a few days or weeks :)

[dynofox]

Originally posted by Jer250R
the crank thing was a joke, and i have a decent mechanical background, however i did not know about the counter-balancer thing, i'll have to re-check that. thanks for the input.

i won't take the rest personally because you don't know me and its the internet, so i'd probably respond as sarcastically as you.

the DS works ridiculous; pretty much solves all my problems so i think i'll be selling the 250. we'll see though, i may miss the 2 stroke in a few days or weeks :)

I've sold my 2-strokes in the past only to come back to them, don't make the same mistake! If you can swing it keep the R as well, best of both worlds then.