ethanol--must have

[400exrider_88]

okay, today i saw gas prices went up from 3.99 to 4.25 in my area. just a suggestion to everyone....use ethanol. you do not need a flexfuel vehicle to do this. If you can blend e85 and regular 87 and make a blend of E20-E30. I read an article about a college who did this experiment in regular cars- ford focus and toyota camri, this incresed the gas mileage and is cheaper. I'm doing a mix of 2:1, 2 gallons of 87 to 1 gallon of E85 tommorow, i'll let you know how it goes. E85 is cheaper than gas and is from the united states, we should use what we can of it.

[flyin#5]

my friend (toadz450) on here runs E85 in his 2001 gmc sierra. not all the time usually every other tank i think he said. no problems... its just that you usually get worse milage.

[rollie]

interesting, how much is ethanol a gallon roughly?

[gojk]

You should be aware that ethanol is an alcohol, therefore it will corrode metal tanks and fuel lines. The vehicles that are made to run e85 actually have coatings on these items to prevent the corrosion.

[toomeyshee87]

ethanol is usually 30 to 70 cents cheaper per gallon

[bradley300]

too bad its not as efficeint as gas (worse mileage and power, only nominally better emissions in most cases), cost more to make than its worth (cost 1.28 to make a dollar worth of e85), and is much worse for the environment than the E85 people will admit (clearcutting to grow corn, which doesnt hold nearly the co2 as the forrest it replaces) and rises food prices (supply and demand, more demand for corn, higher price, regardless of what it is used for).

other than that its a great option! electric/gas hybrids are the most viable most environmentally freindly way to go right now

[KXRida]

If you're running a blend, just keep an eye on your lines and injectors just to be safe. Honestly I wouldn't run a blend in a carbed motor unless I converted for it. The alcohol eats all the rubber o rings in the carb.

[toomeyshee87]

Originally posted by bradley300
too bad its not as efficeint as gas (worse mileage and power, only nominally better emissions in most cases), cost more to make than its worth (cost 1.28 to make a dollar worth of e85), and is much worse for the environment than the E85 people will admit (clearcutting to grow corn, which doesnt hold nearly the co2 as the forrest it replaces) and rises food prices (supply and demand, more demand for corn, higher price, regardless of what it is used for).

other than that its a great option! electric/gas hybrids are the most viable most environmentally freindly way to go right now

clearcutting corn? that is rediculous

[400exrider_88]

change2E85.com this site helps out a lot, read the facts and myths about ethanol. also, ethanol can be made from switchgrass, which can be harvested twice a year. produces about 520% more energy than it takes to produce. I just did a research paper on ethanol for a college class, i have a list of sources, if they don't help out, then at least their interesting to read.

Oh, the mix was about 19 gal. 87 octane and 7 gal. e85. only drove it about 30 miles since the fillup, it ran fine, but took a long time to warm up the engine.

change2E85.com also sells converstion kits for about $500. I've been emailing a worker about it, and it makes vehicles able to run E100. brazil has been running E100 made from sugarcane.

[toomeyshee87]

i think brazil has been all ethanol for like 20 years

[bradley300]

Originally posted by toomeyshee87
clearcutting corn? that is rediculous

clearcutting forest to amke room to grow corn, should have been a little more specific

[toomeyshee87]

you think the forest is being cleared to plant corn?

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by toomeyshee87
you think the forest is being cleared to plant corn?

absolutley. Some farmers are getting rid of every crop they have just to grow corn to sell for ethanol because demand is so high. Corn is also very damaging to the earth where it is grown.

Bradley, I will disagree with you on saying electric hybrids are the way to go. I'm still all diesel! A TDI will net nearly 50mpg and will still have enough oomph to get out of its own way, unlike every hybrid I've been in so far. I will agree they are probably better for the environment. Just pray you dont have to replace a battery on one!

[bradley300]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
absolutley. Some farmers are getting rid of every crop they have just to grow corn to sell for ethanol because demand is so high. Corn is also very damaging to the earth where it is grown.

Bradley, I will disagree with you on saying electric hybrids are the way to go. I'm still all diesel! A TDI will net nearly 50mpg and will still have enough oomph to get out of its own way, unlike every hybrid I've been in so far. I will agree they are probably better for the environment. Just pray you dont have to replace a battery on one!

my only issue with diesels is they still rely so heavily on oil, and diesil is higher than gas right now. as a short term solution to only the issue of lowering demand for oil, its viable, but for long term oil usage issues, as well as pollution, it isn that much better than gas, even if we converted everything from gas to diesel, OPEC still has us by the balls

Originally posted by bradley300
supply and demand, more demand for corn, higher price, regardless of what it is used for


ok your wrong right in a way but wrong!

do you know what commodities are? it is gold,corn,oil, so on anything you can buy thats really not made in to anything ok heres why gas is so much stock is doing really bad so no one wants to trade stock they all trade commodities now like oil an gold,corn witch is driving the price up

BUT they dont take order on the oil, like a gas company takes order when they buy they keep the commodity till its delivery date cuz they need it to make gas

but commodity traders are what is driving the price up cuz so many people buy the options when its cheap then it gos up an they sell an can make 40,000 even 1,000,000 up

before every us company went to **** people did stock but know they are getting rich an ****ing us over:D hope i didnt bore you lol

this is all true i know how to trade commoditys a littlie bit
an i watch charts sometimes i know what next weeks gas price is going to be before next week lol

[toomeyshee87]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
absolutley. Some farmers are getting rid of every crop they have just to grow corn to sell for ethanol because demand is so high. Corn is also very damaging to the earth where it is grown.

you have no idea what you are talking about.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by toomeyshee87
you have no idea what you are talking about.

because... do you at least have anything to say to rebuttal or I'm just wrong and you're right because you say so... I'm only going off of an article that I just read in National Geographic... what the he!! do they know?

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by bradley300
my only issue with diesels is they still rely so heavily on oil, and diesil is higher than gas right now. as a short term solution to only the issue of lowering demand for oil, its viable, but for long term oil usage issues, as well as pollution, it isn that much better than gas, even if we converted everything from gas to diesel, OPEC still has us by the balls

The beauty of the diesel motor is it's ability to run on numerous fuels, where a gas motor is stuck to pretty much just gas. As soon as my quad is sold, I'll be running veggie oil in my truck! I'll then only need diesel fuel to start and shut off my truck, other than that I'll be running for no cost.

[rundrave]

there are alot of mis informed people on this subject. The problem with this is all the scare tactics out there. Just because you guys read things on the internet, and see it on the news does not mean its true. I can find several webpages that say one thing, and another that says the exact opposite.

Alot of you are missing the big picture when it comes to ethanol. Anytime you can create jobs with living wages, you’re doing a good thing.

The importance of ethanol production is undeniable to both consumers and producers. Thats why many states already produce ethanol with great success. Don’t be fooled by the scare tactics.

Another benefit, and I beleive this is very important, is that it gives farmers another buyer for their products. Anytime you can take an agricultural product and add value to it, it’s a good thing. By boosting the economy of our farming communities, the entire economy benefits with more dollars being spent.

Whats so bad with taking a product that is already grown here IN THE USA and provide jobs and economic stability with it?

Is it the best solution....maybe not right now but its come along way and give them more time to make it even more efficient. Its not going to happen over night but atleast its a start.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by rundrave
give them more time to make it even more efficient. Its not going to happen over night but atleast its a start.

I agree with that right there. Right now it seems to be doing more harm than good, but it's underdeveloped at this point and it's being "pushed" forward because we're at a breaking point. If ethanol had 15 years more research it'd be a lot better off, it's still new and still needs some further development I believe, but I think it can be a good alternative fuel source.


Also Brazil is not ALL ethanol, but they are mostly ethanol, which is created from their own suguarcane. They started this back in the 70's though when the fuel crisis hit the first time. Their leader then started plans in motion at that time to slowly ween themselves off of oil based products. By the 80's Brazil was almost solely on ethanol. But lets also note they are using alcohol from their sugarcane. Sugarcane yields 600-800 gallons an acre, where as corn would be half that. Also the waste from sugarcane can be burned to power the distilleries, lowering their fossil fuel usage even more. I suggest reading National Geographic October 2007 for some more info on this, VERY good article.

Here's another interesting fact. Now this is from 10/07 so the prices are different now, but the concept is the same. At the time Gasoline was $3.03 a gallon and ethanol was $2.62 a gallon, but it would take $3.71 of ethanol to get the energy equivalent to one gallon of gas.

[bradley300]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
because... do you at least have anything to say to rebuttal or I'm just wrong and you're right because you say so... I'm only going off of an article that I just read in National Geographic... what the he!! do they know?

TIME magazine just had a similar article, as did Popular Science

[bradley300]

Originally posted by rundrave


Another benefit, and I beleive this is very important, is that it gives farmers another buyer for their products. Anytime you can take an agricultural product and add value to it, it’s a good thing. By boosting the economy of our farming communities, the entire economy benefits with more dollars being spent.



the issue is farmers only have so much land, as they grow more and more of something, something else has to suffer. If a farmer doesnt have any land availablle, how is he going to add carn for ethanol to his property? He is going to have to replace something else that is less profitable. the more this happens the more the price of that will go up. sure ethanol mill come down as production rises, but the food its replacing will rise as the production decreases.

you are also sounding like corn doesnt already have value. corn goes into just about everything in some way,places like Mexico that rely heavily on corn for chips and taco's have already seen dramatic rises in cost.

sugar cane is a slightly more viable option only because its more efficient, but if brazil is growing the sugar cane they use where are they getting the rest of thier commotities? I highly doubt thier is enough land to do all of both so my geuss is they are growing all thier own sugar cane since the whole country runs off it. If i'm right, then chances are they are a slave to the world for all of thier other commodities just as we are for oil, so what has changed besides the product?

if i were King of this country ( Kings dont have congress and the senate to get in thier way) I would be drilling offshore right now as well as in Alaska. There alone is enough to make us energy independent for a while. While this is happening i would be investing billions into wind, solar and nuclear energy.

Alot of conservitives like coal but while is is incredibly abundant, I can only see it as a last resort because of the tons and tons of damage is does to the land.

[bradley300]

Originally posted by rundrave


Whats so bad with taking a product that is already grown here IN THE USA and provide jobs and economic stability with it?



if we were a very small country that needed to import most of what we had anyway, i think you would be spot on, but i think you fail to see this on the grand scale that this country needs to become independent

[smr]

Originally posted by bradley300
my only issue with diesels is they still rely so heavily on oil, and diesil is higher than gas right now. as a short term solution to only the issue of lowering demand for oil, its viable, but for long term oil usage issues, as well as pollution, it isn that much better than gas, even if we converted everything from gas to diesel, OPEC still has us by the balls


Brad you are correct but that is starting to change. they are starting to produce diesel from coal.

[rundrave]

Originally posted by bradley300
if we were a very small country that needed to import most of what we had anyway, i think you would be spot on, but i think you fail to see this on the grand scale that this country needs to become independent

how are we not being independant when we are taking something that is already grown here IN THE USA and provide jobs and economic stability with it?

How many barrels of oil do you RE-GROW every year? ZERO
How many barrels of oil do you RE-NEW every year? ZERO
How many barrels of oil do you raise here in the US? ZERO
How many jobs and families do you support getting your oil from some where else? ZERO

Just so you know the rise in food cost recently have nothing to do with the corn price. Most of the corn last year was bought anywyhere from $2.50 to $3.00 thus your ethanol theory doesn't hold water! It costs much more to process and TRANSPORT food products then it does to purchase the whole grain.

Again I don't want to beat on this subject too much, but corn prices rising has not affected the costs of food near as much as $130+ per barrell of oil has. When the truck hauling that corn, and the truck hauling the other ingredients, and the truck hauling the packing in, and the truck hauling the final product out to the distribution centers where they are trucked to the stores, all of that requires fuel, and fuel is what is driving food prices up.

I hear a lot of negatives about ethanol, but nobody else gives any better alternatives. Ethanol is a viable option which is renewable and puts dollars in american's pockets instead of the middle east. Please don't be an opponent of ethanol unless you have the facts straight. Why are you so willing to overlook how OIL is affecting the price of everything, not just food, but when ethanol affects the price of corn which in return affects the price of food by a small amount compared to oil,

Last year we produced billions of gallons of ethanol which displaced the need for millions barrels of oil which would have cost us tons of $$$ to import. That is $$$ that we kept in the U.S. in our pockets.

[chevy]

i agree with bradley300 and nominate him for king. i think the best thing for the country to do is to drill for oil offshore and in alaska. by drilling and producing more oil in the US we will be more independent,creat more jobs for americans and lower or at least keep gas prices at a certain level. and while we r using the oil we as americans produced ourselves we can spend more time and energy into researching alternative fuels.

[bradley300]

[i]

How many barrels of oil do you RE-GROW every year? ZERO
How many barrels of oil do you RE-NEW every year? ZERO
How many barrels of oil do you raise here in the US? ZERO
How many jobs and families do you support getting your oil from some where else? ZERO
. [/B]


how much corn, soybeans, apples, oranges, tobacco, lettuce, tomaotes, carrots and potoatos will be be importing because we have dedicated so much land to corn so we are energy independent? you are also acting like marathon doesnt employ 1 US citizen when in fact they support millions along with making thousands on thousands of american stock holders money

my point is that if we become energy independent at the cost of becoming dependent on others for produce, what have we gained? what do we need more, food or feul? we have only had fuel for what, 125 years? and we did survive, but could we survive without food?

an ideal situation for a grown feul/oil would be to find a way to produce it from a waste product, such as corn stalks-not the corn its self. what you get is 2 products from 1 field. as long as the stalk/feul is effiecient there would be much much less needing replaced in the field.

our biggest issue is tho greed and complacency. No matter what we get to replace oil, we will continue to use it past its point of being easily replaced because no one thinks of consequences . what will we do once we can burn and eat a seasons suply of corn in less than a year? we are right back where we started. what really needs to happen is a change to a more conservative less wastefull society, along with a shift towards energy fueled by things we cant run out of, like solar and wind power

[L0w3r55]

i hear putting a little acetone in your gas greatly improves gas mileage. heres the proof. ive been thinking of doing it myself.


http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2005/03/17/6900069_Acetone/

[400exrider_88]

i belive ethanol should be made with swithcgrass. even though ethanol is not as energy efficent, switchgrass is free, unlike corn. diesels are better, i have a friend who has a diesel f250 that he runs on used tranny fluid. to start he uses diesel, then runs tranny fluid from the other tank. diesels can also run vegetable oil, i think.

[400exrider_88]

i belive ethanol should be made with swithcgrass. even though ethanol is not as energy efficent, switchgrass is free, unlike corn. diesels are better, i have a friend who has a diesel f250 that he runs on used tranny fluid. to start he uses diesel, then runs tranny fluid from the other tank. diesels can also run vegetable oil, i think.

[400exrider_88]

im going to try that idea LOw3r55. anyone think the water converstion kit actually works??

[bradley300]

Originally posted by chevy
i agree with bradley300 and nominate him for king. i think the best thing for the country to do is to drill for oil offshore and in alaska. by drilling and producing more oil in the US we will be more independent,creat more jobs for americans and lower or at least keep gas prices at a certain level. and while we r using the oil we as americans produced ourselves we can spend more time and energy into researching alternative fuels.

1 down, entire US population minus 1 to go!

remember tho, offshore drilling is a short term solution to a long term problem, and only needs to be done to keep gas prices low until we find something better. This is another american problem tho, forgetfullness! remember synfeuls? we were working to stop this probelm in the 80's, opec heard so they dropped the price of oil, and we forgot all about how wonderfull oil independence would be and synfuels was shut down

[bradley300]

Originally posted by 400exrider_88
i belive ethanol should be made with swithcgrass. even though ethanol is not as energy efficent, switchgrass is free, unlike corn. diesels are better, i have a friend who has a diesel f250 that he runs on used tranny fluid. to start he uses diesel, then runs tranny fluid from the other tank. diesels can also run vegetable oil, i think.

how is switch grass free? like anything else that is sold, it would need to be done on a grand scale t even begin to solve out problems, which leads to the same issues you get with ethanol

[400exrider_88]

yeah, switchgrass isnt free, but its not used for food, or other products as far as i know. theres no demand for it, unlike corn which is rising in costs b/c of ethanol production

[bradley300]

think about it tho, if switchgrass catches on, thier will be demans for lots of it, so it would end up replacing something on a farm, probably a food so switch grass might be cheap, but you have to look past just the switchgrass and see that what it replaces, there is less of, which raises the price. i'm not sure that growing anything is really a viable long term option

[BrianEX]

I think some of you are also missing a few points on the pros for ethanol. There is no waste in the production of the product. All the byproducts have significant value in the economy. I have toured an ethanol plant and was amazed. All things we need and would have produced anyhow. Also we farm and not all are only planting corn. With the price and then the supply of corn increasing it reduced the supply of other crops, so the price went up on them. Nice to see the farmers have a chance to make some money for a change. As one of you said, do the research yourself. Don't believe one article or website, that may be using data from decades old ethanol plants. Ethanol is the most viable solution to our current problem. Any gas vehicle can be converted, as well as the distribution network. Hey how about a E85/electric hybrid car?

Don't just listen to biased news sources that are only out to sell issues. Use your mind and make your own opinion.

[toomeyshee87]

Originally posted by bradley300
how much corn, soybeans, apples, oranges, tobacco, lettuce, tomaotes, carrots and potoatos will be be importing because we have dedicated so much land to corn so we are energy independent? you are also acting like marathon doesnt employ 1 US citizen when in fact they support millions along with making thousands on thousands of american stock holders money

my point is that if we become energy independent at the cost of becoming dependent on others for produce, what have we gained? what do we need more, food or feul? we have only had fuel for what, 125 years? and we did survive, but could we survive without food?

an ideal situation for a grown feul/oil would be to find a way to produce it from a waste product, such as corn stalks-not the corn its self. what you get is 2 products from 1 field. as long as the stalk/feul is effiecient there would be much much less needing replaced in the field.

our biggest issue is tho greed and complacency. No matter what we get to replace oil, we will continue to use it past its point of being easily replaced because no one thinks of consequences . what will we do once we can burn and eat a seasons suply of corn in less than a year? we are right back where we started. what really needs to happen is a change to a more conservative less wastefull society, along with a shift towards energy fueled by things we cant run out of, like solar and wind power

since you talk like you know so much about ethanol, then you should also know that it can be made from corn stalks. its called cellulostic ethanol. this is also the same kind of ethanol make from switchgrass. you should also do some research into common farming practices and realize that growing corn is not that hard on the soil. also, hybrid corn is being researched and created that produces up to 1000 gal/acre of ethanol, vs about 250 gal/acre currently. this means that some corn would be grown solely for ethanol, while other would be grown for commercial use.
as for referring to switchgrass as "free" i think he means that is is one of the most common native grasses in the US and that is can just be cut like any other grass and let grow again.

[toomeyshee87]

Originally posted by BrianEX
I think some of you are also missing a few points on the pros for ethanol. There is no waste in the production of the product. All the byproducts have significant value in the economy. I have toured an ethanol plant and was amazed. All things we need and would have produced anyhow. Also we farm and not all are only planting corn. With the price and then the supply of corn increasing it reduced the supply of other crops, so the price went up on them. Nice to see the farmers have a chance to make some money for a change. As one of you said, do the research yourself. Don't believe one article or website, that may be using data from decades old ethanol plants. Ethanol is the most viable solution to our current problem. Any gas vehicle can be converted, as well as the distribution network. Hey how about a E85/electric hybrid car?

Don't just listen to biased news sources that are only out to sell issues. Use your mind and make your own opinion.

thanks for that post, at least some people have some sense.

everyone is always hating on the farmers when they make a buck.. which is not very often.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by toomeyshee87
you should also do some research into common farming practices and realize that growing corn is not that hard on the soil.

Taken directly from National Geographic:

"Corn requires large doses of herbicide and nitrogen fertilizer and can cause more soil erosion than any other crop. And producing corn ethanol consumes just about as much fossil fuel as the enthanol itself replaces"

Now this was written in october 07' so I would say that corn consuming as much as its replacing may not be as accurate today as it was then, but I doubt much has changed in the last 8 months or so on the way the corn is grown.

I'm just going off what I read here, and I consider this to be a reliable source.


Another interesting fact: If you know about diesels then you probably know that Rudolf Diesel's first engine originally ran on peanut oil, but some may not know that Henry Ford's first car ran on alcohol!




Originally posted by 400exrider_88
i belive ethanol should be made with swithcgrass. even though ethanol is not as energy efficent, switchgrass is free, unlike corn. diesels are better, i have a friend who has a diesel f250 that he runs on used tranny fluid. to start he uses diesel, then runs tranny fluid from the other tank. diesels can also run vegetable oil, i think.

That might be OK in an older diesel like a 12v cummins or an old Ford IDI, but no way could you run or would you want to run tranny oil, especially used tranny oil, in a newer diesel motor. You can also run them on veggie oil, but not all. It's very difficult to get it to work on common rail setups. I will be converting my own ride very soon. The only good way to do so is to run it in a separate heated tank, and start and shut down your motor on diesel. This dramatically cuts down on your diesel consumption. www.vegistroke.com

[bradley300]

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/pdf/20080519_graphic.pdf

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1738434,00.html

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1734834,00.html

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1736157,00.html

THE CLEAN ENERGY SCAM

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1725975,00.html

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1713431,00.html



I think TIME magazine can be considered a reliable source. I'm all for new feuls, energy independence but only if it makes sense. I'malso for farmers, but i'll be damned if my tax dollars pay thier subsidies so they can make a buck off something that isnt worth anyones time but thiers

[toomeyshee87]

well you can believe national geographic, time and any other magazine, but i know my stuff being that i am a farmer... maybe i should just forget everything i know about corn and go read a magazine..:rolleyes:

oh and by the way, think about what you said about your tax dollars going to subsidies for farmers that still dont hardly make a living the next time your buying your cheap food.

[rundrave]

its all true because I saw it on the internet.....:rolleyes:

Let me guess you also beleive all the biased reviews in Dirt Wheels too?

[bradley300]

Originally posted by toomeyshee87


oh and by the way, think about what you said about your tax dollars going to subsidies for farmers that still dont hardly make a living the next time your buying your cheap food.

i didnt say anyhting about food, i said i dont want to pay for you to grow corn for ethanol when its not what everyone claims

[toomeyshee87]

but people still complain about 4 dollar gas...

[400exrider_88]

gas is cheap compared to europes gas prices. people need to quit *****en

[gojk]

Originally posted by 400exrider_88
gas is cheap compared to europes gas prices. people need to quit *****en

European infrastructure is not the same as Americas. We in America put on alot more miles commuting than your typical Euro country, therefor the gas prices make a lot more of a difference over here. Plus most Euro cities have awesome mass transportation systems, which the US really lacks.

[toomeyshee87]

Originally posted by gojk
European infrastructure is not the same as Americas. We in America put on alot more miles commuting than your typical Euro country, therefor the gas prices make a lot more of a difference over here. Plus most Euro cities have awesome mass transportation systems, which the US really lacks.

exactly

[qballd50]

Will It hurt our quads any running gas that has a Little of ethanol in it! Just curious, Might have to start watching where i buy my fuel at!

[rundrave]

are you talking about e-85 or just the 10% percent added in alot of states as an oxygenate? the percentage is too low to do anything with a maximuim of 10% ethanol. either good or bad.

Most damage will come from not tuning to it. Too much alky, and you could start to lean things out. Keep an eye on things like
o-rings and rubber boot carb connectors. If you let your bike sit for long periods, it would be good to drain the carb. Other then that, I would'nt worry about it.

really the only concern would be having it sit literally soaking aluminuim or soaking fuel lines. it really eats threw most of the standard atv rubber used in higher concentrations only if it sits.

[qballd50]

Thanks Man For your Reply!!