help crank cam

[hypersnyper6947]

I traded my warrior for a 440ex 2 days ago. The only problem is i need to get a new jug or sleeve and piston. I noticed some other things as well when i was in the engine that i wasnt sure about. The crank has some discoloration where it connects to the rod. I was wondering if this is normal, it looks to be from heat. I looked around on ebay and sall some nice used cranks but they look to have the same discoloration. I also noticed that my cam (stage 2) has what looks to be some chips missing from it. I dont know if i should get another cam and or another crank. I also dont know if i should just re-sleeve and keep the 440 or get a hole new jug. Im thinking of dropping to a 426, can i re-sleeve to that. I am very new to the 400ex and im not a mechanic by any means i just know the basics. Please help.
Thanks

PS: i tried to post pics but the files are to big how do i get around this

[hypersnyper6947]

this ebay item is a good pic of what mine looks like


370047901349

[DementeD]

Crank-take it to a machine shop and have them check it..they can tell you if theres any damage and if it can be fixed etc..
dont trust coloration or someone on the web.
might as well take the cam as well..and see whats up with that..sounds like ull need a new one.

as far as your bore..you can resleeve it and id start with a 416 instead of jumping to a 426 or going back to a 440..


lastly..why on earth would u trade a warrior(unless it was in the same condition) for a "blown" 400ex??
just doesnt seem to make sense to me?!?!

[hypersnyper6947]

Thanks for the reply, i traded my warrior b/c i was completely stock and i wanted to widen it and all that, then i found this 440 already widened stretched with shocks, full exhaust and everything. So i traded straight up bike for bike. I figured this would be a cheaper way to get all the mods i wanted plus a much faster bike. Why is it you would skip the 426 or the 440 for the 416. If you can explain how to post pics that would be great also.

[DementeD]

i say 416 cuz it leaves room for other rebuilds later if necessary..
also i say 416 cuz from what everyone on here believes..416 are just as fast as 440s if built correctly..give or take a lil ..nothin major..

also 416 = less heat = more reliability

edit: and are u positive u need a new sleave?
possibly it could just use a honing..and unless ur piston is damaged u could just get slightly larger rings to accommodate the hone..
im just throwin this out there since u said ur by no means a mechanic... id say take the whole motor to shop and have them look over it and tell you what can be done..? maybe you can save urself some money.. and try to take it to more then one for the simple fact they may tell u two different things as far as what u need to do , to get more money out of you for unnecessary things..


as far as postin pics..
ah..plenty of ways..but one i guess that could be easy is..
open the photos in paint..click image then select resize/skew
and change the size of the pic by percentage..
ie if u want it half the size type 50x50 and itll cut it in half.size wise not the actual picture..then click file save as..and make sure its saved as a JPEG for smaller file size.. :D

[GPracer2500]

The change in color on OEM rods is normal. Like in this pic:

http://www.powroll.com/images/PRODUCTS-WEB/00302S-16094LR.jpg

I'm not saying you can tell if a rod is good or bad by looking at it, just saying that the grey color to bronze color change is a normal feature of OEM rods. I've never noticed cranks themselves having any color changes on them.

[hypersnyper6947]

Cool thanks guys, i notice the same coloring in the pic GPracer2500 posted, you can see right where the crank connects to the rod a little change in color. Also it would be possible to have my 440 honed and then i can use a 416 piston with bigger rings. Just to get this straight the bigger rings would make up for the fact that it was a 440 and now its even bigger b/c of the hone. My friend who is a mechanic is going to be helping with everything, except the machine shop stuff of coarse.

[hypersnyper6947]

here is a pic of the cam you can see the 2 tiny chips on the first lobe from the left and the second to last one. Also here is a pic of the crank.

[hypersnyper6947]

I heard that the chips in the cam are not uncommon in aftermarket cams and that it should be fine, is this true?

[Bill Fuller]

The cam is shot I wouldn't put it back in. Now for the bad news:( Most likely the cam followers (rocker arms) are also ruined. The cam has deffinant score marks, the rockers will be the same. DO NOT change cams and not replace the rocker arms/tappets. When you have it apart inspect the cam bed, is it scored as well??? Looks like this motor may have ran low on oil or ran to long on the same old dirty oil. It is not common for a cam to chip like that, where do you think them pieces went??The piston, I agree with the above statement about the 416. But dissagree about buying larger rings, ever heard of piston slap. Re sleeve and bore to 416, run a quality piston. The crank looks OK but until the side to side movement (wiggle test) is measured you (we) are just guessing. If you are going to tear the whole motor apart replace the basics as a minimum (crank bearings,timing chain,cam bearings ETC...) the 400ex is a very easy motor to work on. Buy a Clymer manual and it's just like putting together a model you buy at the hobby shop. If you don't have tools go to Sears and buy a metric tool set for a couple hundred dollars, should have just about everything you will need. You will save lotsa $$$$$$ doing the work yourself and this will give you the confidence to work on any quad/bike motor. A digital camera and zip lock baggies/Sharpie are a beginner mechanics best friend. Take your time, you can do it.

[DementeD]

^ definitely a good point about piston slap..and i would use a 416 piston in a 440 bore with larger rings..i referred to a 440 piston with larger rings to accommodate the hone..which shouldnt be much at all..however me personally id resleeve and do 416...

[graff2000]

i have to agree it looks like the engine was run out of oil ussually the cam is the first thing to go cause its the last thing to get oil. i would think real hard about going to a 416 or 426 i got the 426 in mine and it is plenty fast on my fresh rebuild i was gps'd at 78mph.

[TRXRacer1]

Go 426 or 430 IF you need to resleeve. Then like said before you sill have room to go bigger later if needed. If you already have a BB sleeve then a 416 is pointless, you have the room, use it. Now you can get a little bigger piston from JE then a 440 (which is actually a 435). If all you need is a "light" bore and hone you may be able to stay with your current sleeve.

Don't toss the rockers but do toss the cam. Since your rockers need work now is a great time to get a web cam. Web cams are hardweld cams that require hardwelded rockers. Send them your rockers and they'll hardweld and recondition them. Pick out a nice cam from them too. I love hotcams because they can be ran on stock rockers but if I was facing your situation I'd go webcam all day long! They have some killer cams!

As far as the crank goes I bet you'll find that color on a lot of stock cranks that have been ridden hard. Best bet is to get it checked out by a pro.

[Bill Fuller]

Ask around and you will find more people prefer the TC cam's I ran the same cam for three years. 440's were no faster. My setup was TC 926 (maybe 929 been awhile) and the JE piston. I personally wouldn't buy Hotcams because of the early quality control issues they had, sorry but that really turned me off. TC's cam is also a "drop in". Your choice on the bore but I would rather have the reliability of the 416 any day. What kind of exhaust does it have? JE+TC+Sparks=:muscle:

[hypersnyper6947]

First off thank all of you for your input and advice i really appreciate it. I have brand new hardened rockers in it now that have not even been run yet, i also have a heavy duty timing chain in it as well. I think after hearing from all of you i am going to replace the basics, bearings, piston, rings, sleeve. I think i will go with a 426 with 11:1 compression. I will look for a TC stage 2 cam as well. Should i go with wiseco or JE.

So that is my plan does it sound good?

[hypersnyper6947]

Many of you have said to go with 416 and many of you have said 426. Will i be able to feel a difference between the two. I def. want it to have some power, so rather than getting the 416 and then wanting to upgrade i would rather just go straight to 426..... i think. I have to keep up with my riding buddy on his raptor 660.

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by hypersnyper6947
Many of you have said to go with 416 and many of you have said 426. Will i be able to feel a difference between the two. I def. want it to have some power, so rather than getting the 416 and then wanting to upgrade i would rather just go straight to 426..... i think. I have to keep up with my riding buddy on his raptor 660. I'm pretty sure that unless you order a special sleeve 426 is the smallest you can go.

[Bill Fuller]

I buildmy own motors and my 416 never had any problems keeping up with 426's or 440's. You have to remember this is an air cooled motor, you may start out with 30 Hp (example) but after an hour or so you will be lucky to maintain 25 Hp due to the fact that heat robs power. Now with that said that is one of my biggest complaints about the 426/440. Your choice, your money but you will never be able to keep up with the Raptor. I hope you did not put the cam back in the pictured condition, my guess is the cam did not require hard faced rockers. The 440 sleeve can be pressed out and a new stock bore sleeve can be re-inserted, then re-bored to whatever you decide. It would probably be cheaper to buy a new jug. What does the walls of the sleeve look like/ Can you still see the cross hatch? I would use the JE piston low compression so as not to blow out the head gaskets or pull the studs out (very common in 440's and high comp).

[hypersnyper6947]

The 416 is starting to sound pretty good to me. I think that it will probably be the most economical as well. Reliability is important to me also and it seems to be the most reliable. I know i cant use the currant sleeve that is in my jug. So no matter what i will need to re sleeve or buy a new jug. If i do the 416 i will have to re jet my lectron carb. Im not sure how to do that any suggestions. I know that it is jetted for the high compression 440 right now w/ race fuel.

[Dew2008]

Hi I am gonna step in and help him out here. I am the guy he traded with.

The bike jumped time with me and I replaced the rockers (Old Ones Worn Bad), timing chain (HD chain), new clutch, timing gears, Guides. Put the bike back together and within 2 hours of ridin it shut off and bam low compression. Removed the piston and jug to find that the rings were shot. The piston and sleeve are both shot aswell.



As far as being run on low oil or used oil not ever. I ran 20W-50 through this bike and changed it after every weekend ride. We go riding every other weekend.


The lectron carb has been jetted to run 123 octane fuel. I am not 100% sure on the jet sizes I will dig up my paperwork and see if I have the sizes in there.

I suggested to him to go with a 426 11:1 and run 93 octane. I did not know that the cam was bad, I would not call myself a mechanic but I have some knowledge and did not know that.

To answer the question as to why he traded his stock 01 warrior for my 99 Honda 440Ex is because my honda has...

Houser + 2 A Arms
Lone Star Swingarm
Fox Adjustable Shocks
White Bros E-Series Exhaust
Powerbomb Header
Lectron Carb
Terry Cable Throttle Box
Pro-Taper Handle Bars
All Galfer Brakes, Block Off & Staineless Lines
K&N
Custom Race Cut Plastics
Custom Air Box
Rev Box


This deal benefited both of use because I have a broken back and needed to slow down and he wanted to go faster, so in the long run we both made out good.


Just to name a few mods. Anyways I am here to help and if yall need any info to help him out just let me know and I will do my best to answer all questions.

[DementeD]

just read some more before i go to work..so i cant post a whole write up etc..but i did want to say thats..admirable of u stepping for and tryin to help out..most people rather dick someone over n skip town..

i did question why he would trade but it does seem like itd work out for you both so thats great..ive done trades like that before and i know my dad never understood it but i did. :D thats all i have time for now..off to work :(

[04-honda-400ex]

Originally posted by DementeD
^ definitely a good point about piston slap..and i would use a 416 piston in a 440 bore with larger rings..i referred to a 440 piston with larger rings to accommodate the hone..which shouldnt be much at all..however me personally id resleeve and do 416...

Dude you can not put a 416cc piston into 440cc cylinder its just not going to work. To be honest that's the stupidest thing I have ever heard!:rolleyes:

[DementeD]

TYPO sry sry sry..
i meant i WOULDNT...my fault..i was referring to..using a 440 piston in a 440 bore but with a slight hone ..so itd be just a hone bigger then a 440 which is like 89mm? or something..and go with the larger rings to make up for it..

and to be honest..if u read everything you could of figured that out..
but..i guess you were just a lil to stupid to do so..dude

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by Bill Fuller
The 440 sleeve can be pressed out and a new stock bore sleeve can be re-inserted, then re-bored to whatever you decide. It would probably be cheaper to buy a new jug. What does the walls of the sleeve look like/ Can you still see the cross hatch? I would use the JE piston low compression so as not to blow out the head gaskets or pull the studs out (very common in 440's and high comp). Where are you getting a sleeve that can go back to stock from a 440? Is this something LA Sleeve will make if you ask them to?

Also the studs are easily controlled with steel inserts. You can run high comp pistons without issues when set-up right.

I'd mic the cylinder and see if you can get away with boring and honing for an 89.5mm piston.

[hypersnyper6947]

can you further explain these steel inserts.?

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by hypersnyper6947
can you further explain these steel inserts.? Any good machine shop should have these. The problem with the stock studs is that the thread size going into the aluminum is on the small side and can pull out. The steel inserts give the stock studs the bigger foot print they need so they can't get yanked out. You can get "HD" studs but all they are doing is the same thing the inserts do but at a higher cost. Some have even used heli-coils but the 100% sure bet is something like a time-sert.

http://www.timesert.com/images/kits/mtrcsert/image003.jpg

Hey have you looked into the 89.5mm piston yet? You may be fine with the sleeve you have. JE makes one in 12:1 compression, part number 247610.

[hypersnyper6947]

Does anyone know of a good machine shop to have this done in or around orlando fl.

[Dew2008]

Hey man I am not sure in Orlando but I know in ocala (Where we met) you can take it to Ocala Motorsports and they do that there. You might be able to ship it in and have it shipped back. I can get you the # if you need.

[hypersnyper6947]

I will give them a call thanks.

[YELLOW_TRX400EX]

Originally posted by hypersnyper6947
Does anyone know of a good machine shop to have this done in or around orlando fl.




what else do they do there?? would they do a valve job or port and polish?? or sleeve....

[YELLOW_TRX400EX]

Originally posted by Dew2008
Hey man I am not sure in Orlando but I know in ocala (Where we met) you can take it to Ocala Motorsports and they do that there. You might be able to ship it in and have it shipped back. I can get you the # if you need.



what else do they do there?? would they do a valve job or port and polish?? or sleeve....

[hypersnyper6947]

Does anybody know how much is it going to cost me to re sleeve? Will the new sleeve need to be honed? Do i need to bring the piston to the machine shop with the sleeve to have it matched or something? Also how much for the heavy duty head studs, or the steel inserts?