HOW TO- Sparks Advance Key Installation

[tri5ron]

OK Guys,
A few have asked for these, so here's my pics for the Sparks key install.

You will not need to drain the oil, if you put the left side tires up on about 6" boards. (this will also make it eaiser to work on).

Also you will not need to use an Impact gun/wrench providing you have a Large Adjustable Wrench, (24" is good), a Medium Adjustable Wrench, (18" is good), a Long Breaker bar, (24" is good), and a good Torque Wrench.

Remember to have your replacement side cover gasket BEFORE you start. it is Honda part number, 11395-KCY-671

(note- captions for pics will be BELOW the pic)
so lets get going here....

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Sparks Timing Advance Key with Flywheel Puller Bolt



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with your bike lifted up about 6" on the left side, you will not need to drain the oil, and it makes it eaiser to remove the starter cover bolts, and the Left Side Cover bolts.
(yes you need to remove the starter cover, gear, and spacer )



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remove the neutral switch wire. (it just pulls straight off)



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Remove the Shifter Lever, Side Case bolts, and Starter Cover bolts



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Gently remove Started Cover, Gear, Spacer, and Shaft.
(If you are gentle, and with a little luck, the gasket should be ok)



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Now GENTLY Tap the Side Cover Case with a Soft Blow Mallet to break the seal, and pull the Side Cover STRAIGHT back.
Remember that there is a o-ring seal around the starter shaft housing, and you must remove the Side Case straight without trying to wiggle it too much.
Now remove any gasket material from the Side Case.



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Now place a Large Adjustable Wrench on the 2 flats of the flywheel. Make sure to get the wrench as tight as possible on the flats to prevent it from slipping off.



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If you use a 24" Adjustable Wrench, it will conviently reach, and rest on the front spindle, allowing for a solid contact surface



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Next place socket and LONG breaker bar on the Flywheel bolt, and you can easily remove the bolt, without the need for a Impact gun, and chancing damage to the bolt or Crankshaft.



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Remove bolt and washer



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put the puller bolt into the Flywheel.



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Swap sides with the Large Adjustable Wrench, and remember to get it as snug as possible on the Flywheel.
Find a convienent point for the handle of the Wrench to rest.
(my spot was on the nerf bar), yours may be the footpeg.

Now use you Medium Adjustable Wrench on the Puller bolt, and carefully TIGHTEN the bolt, into the Flywheel, until it pops loose.
(sorry I dont have a pic of this, but I only have two hands, and was doing this all alone)



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Flywheel removed.
Now clean off any gasket material from the Engine case.



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Using a small screwdriver, and tap hammer, remove the stock Woodruff key.
take your time and dont damage the keyslot.



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these 2 pics show the difference between the Stock key, and the Sparks Advance key.
(this is how far you will be turning the Flywheel to the left).
This applies to the "single notch" type keys only.

Note- if you recieved one of the keys that is the "offset type", you will not need to hold the Flywheel to the left when tightening the flywheel back on.



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Now install the Sparks Advance key into the slot, with the red side facing AWAY from the Engine.

Make sure to get it COMPLETLY seated into the slot so that the "notch" is COMPLETLY flush with the surface of the Crankshaft.

This is eaisly accomplished using a small, flat tipped, drift punch, and small tap hammer.

(Be careful not to damage the edge of the key, OR the edge of the keyslot)



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Now carefully replace the Flywheel, aligning the Flywheel keyway, with the Sparks Advance key.

Rotate the Flywheel forward to touch the backside of the Sparks key, and slide the Flywheel onto the Crankshaft until it stops.

next, replace the stock Flywheel bolt finger tight.



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Put the Large Adjustable Wrench back onto the flats of the Flywheel, and find a solid place to rest the wrench handle.

Using a Torque Wrence set to 94 ft/lbs, tighten the Flywheel bolt.
(this method will insure that you a keeping the Flywheel "turned to the left").



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install new Side Case gasket.



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Honda Side Case gasket part number



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Re-install Side Cover, being careful to slide it over the O-Ring Seal on the Starter Shaft Housing.



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replace the Side Case bolts,(and 1 nut), back in their original positions, finger tight.

(If you use a piece of cardboard before you started, and draw a picture of the sidecase and bolt positions,... then it is easy to insure they all go back in their original positions).



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OK, Now we are going to re-install the Starter gears.
I tried to put the gear shaft first, then slide the gear on.

This did not work too well due to the Starter Gear meshes with the Starter Shaft FIRST, and makes it a little difficult to get the Starter Gear to mesh with the Flywheel gear....

SOooo,...
To make it a little eaiser, do it this way.

Put the Starter Ge ar in FIRST. this will make it much eaiser to get the Starter Gear meshed with BOTH the Starter Shaft, AND the Flywheel Gear together.



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Starter Gear in, and meshed with both the Starter Shaft, and the Flywheel Gear.



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Next, Slide the Shaft through the Starter Gear , and into the Side Case Cover.



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Shaft in place.



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Next, Place Shaft Spacer onto Shaft.


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Spacer in place on Shaft.



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And now replace Starter Cover.



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Now replace remaining bolts, Neutral Wire Clip, 1 Case nut.
Tighten all bolts, and 1 nut to 7 ft/lbs ., Replace Neutral Switch Wire to it's connector,
Reinstall Shifter lever, (re-align the dots on the Shifter Lever, and the shaft).

Now, turn key, push Starter button, get your Helmet, (I don't think I need to tell ya how to put that on...LOL!), give the throttle a couple of quick snaps,
and start Bangin' some gears!

(Little tip here, You might want to sit/lean a little more forward than usual for your first Launch !)

awesome write up man! its better than the 1 they had before in the article section.

[DementeD]

STICKY!!


Much better right up...
ur bike is definitely in better shape..my gaskets wouldnt come off for crap..i spent atleast an hour tryin to get all of the gasket pieces off..
i really wouldnt be surprised if i end up with a leak..
also my starter cover gasket has to be replaced as well..it was garbage when i took the cover off..

anyway great right up..and should be a sticky..definitely better then the article..

[AnDy7]

Wow thats a really good detailed instructions on how to do this! good job, should help me alot when i get my key on tuesday!

[Benjithx]

Great walkthrough! Very well done!

[tri5ron]

Thanks for the compliments,
(It was alot of work for a guy who can only type with 3 or 4
fingers!!!)

I just hope it might help anyone wanting to do this mod.

If I have left anything out, or need to change anything, just let me know, and I will edit it.

Ride hard, and keep the rubber side down...

[DementeD]

maybe u should just edit in a warning...not everyones will be this easy..haha
people like me with bad luck will have difficulty with installation.. :D

Tri we can trade if u want..u do my atv work..ill type everything up for u? i type 100-150wpm ..deal? haha

[tri5ron]

DementeD,
You got a deal !
Go ahead and type up everything I'm thinkin' for me ! Haha!
So did you get yours in yet?

I'm going out for the weekend with some friends on the 16th thru 18th of this month.
I cant wait to see how the new shocks and advance key perform...

Lets see,... Good friends and family, Quad riding, Landsailing, cookin' BBQ, Beer, throwin' horseshoes, beer, making smores with the munchkins, watchin' the stars in the telescope, beer, playing checkers by the campfire, beer, eatin' hobo pies, beer, a good cigar, and, oh yeah,... some beer.

Nah, It dosent sound like any fun at all...
Maybe we should just stay home and do some work instead.

I have a question. Does this change when the actual timing mark comes arund to the window. For adjusting valves will this make it so the "T" mark isnt where the actual "T" is when adjusting the valves? If so how much of a difference is it?

[DementeD]

Originally posted by tri5ron
DementeD,
You got a deal !
Go ahead and type up everything I'm thinkin' for me ! Haha!
So did you get yours in yet?

I'm going out for the weekend with some friends on the 16th thru 18th of this month.
I cant wait to see how the new shocks and advance key perform...

Lets see,... Good friends and family, Quad riding, Landsailing, cookin' BBQ, Beer, throwin' horseshoes, beer, making smores with the munchkins, watchin' the stars in the telescope, beer, playing checkers by the campfire, beer, eatin' hobo pies, beer, a good cigar, and, oh yeah,... some beer.

Nah, It dosent sound like any fun at all...
Maybe we should just stay home and do some work instead.

i got it in..but i need the starter cover gasket which i havent been able to fine cheap..the dealership would take 5 days..plus i ahve to go down there pay for it..they order it..then come back to get it...waste of gas

so i looked online found it for 2 bucks..but shippin is 10 one place 13 another..so i guess its up to..whats cheaper? gas or shipping? haha probably shipping

[bearair]

Originally posted by DementeD
i got it in..but i need the starter cover gasket which i havent been able to fine cheap..the dealership would take 5 days..plus i ahve to go down there pay for it..they order it..then come back to get it...waste of gas

so i looked online found it for 2 bucks..but shippin is 10 one place 13 another..so i guess its up to..whats cheaper? gas or shipping? haha probably shipping

Did you check bike bandit? I purchased both my gaskets from them along with some extra o-rings for oil changes and valve adjustments. The shipping was only about $7 for USPS parcel post.

[tri5ron]

DementeD,
just a thought here,....

The starter cover gasket would not be too hard to make yourself.
I've made many a gasket in my time.

Go to pepboys, or your local auto parts store and get some gasket material,...
Use the starter cover to trace out the perimeter and hole locations,
and then just cut it out yourself with a X-acto knife or razor blade. it's really pretty easy.

heck, I've used the cardboard from a sixpack, or similar thickness type of paper/cardboard.
you could even use the paper from a manilla envelope.
(works pretty well actually).

give it a shot, and you could be up and runnin' tonight!!!

[DementeD]

i could do that..i went with bikebandit though..it was much cheaper then the rest..like 8 bucks..but whatever..cheaper then wasting gas to make a 40mile round trip twice plus the gasket..

as far as the "make your own" gasket..
ill pass for now..and do it right..and if that fails..then ill do that

[Gatekeeper]

Excellent write up made for a very easy install!
Only I did use an impact to remove the flywheel bolt and pull flywheel but I used adjustable wrench to hold flats while buzzing it off/pulling, used your method for torqueing on.
Only sticking point I had was when I reinstalled the case cover I was fighting to get the cover to seat tight near the starter. Until a buddy ask me if I lubed the o-ring for the starter...duh. A quick shot of pb blaster on the o-ring and the cover slid right on.
Thanks again.

STICKY PLEASE!!

[mcwilly]

Do you guys happen to remember what size socket you used to loosen the bolt that holds the flywheel on?
Hoping to finally install mine tonight.

[YELLOW_TRX400EX]

Originally posted by mcwilly
Do you guys happen to remember what size socket you used to loosen the bolt that holds the flywheel on?
Hoping to finally install mine to
night.






17mm and the puller is 30mm

anyone know if this will make your iming off for adjusting your valves? because you spin the flywheel to the timing mark but if you changed the timing wouldnt that alter how you adjust your valves or no?

[YELLOW_TRX400EX]

Originally posted by FoxHondaRider
anyone know if this will make your iming off for adjusting your valves? because you spin the flywheel to the timing mark but if you changed the timing wouldnt that alter how you adjust your valves or no?


you dont have to take the timing chain of so the timing doesnot matter and the adjusment in the valves wont change either.

[Gatekeeper]

but the timing"t" mark visible thru the sight plug will now be off by 6 degrees. thats why you will have to pull the spark plug to watch the cylinder to verify TDC prior to valve adjustment

Originally posted by YELLOW_TRX400EX
you dont have to take the timing chain of so the timing doesnot matter and the adjusment in the valves wont change either.

timing does affect the valves


Originally posted by Gatekeeper
but the timing"t" mark visible thru the sight plug will now be off by 6 degrees. thats why you will have to pull the spark plug to watch the cylinder to verify TDC prior to valve adjustment

thank you, hopefully that wont be too hard to see. Iw ill have to do that and feel the rockers i believe to see if they are loose and there isnt pressure on them.

[Gatekeeper]

I guess if a person was thinking ahead they could crank the flywheel til the "t" mark lines up at TDC, remove stock key, install the new advance key, turn flywheel gently to the left to index the flywheel with the new key (without turning over motor) and place the cover back on temporarily
Then mark the flywheel thru the sight plug for a new timing mark with a marker, remove cover and lightly file a new "advanced" t mark in the flywheel.
Wish I would have thought about this before installing mine.
Anybody do this or something similiar?

[mcwilly]

Installed my key yesterday evening after work. Thanks for the write-up Tri5! With this write up and the one in the 'articles' section, it made the install a snap. MUCH better than the instructions that come w/ the key. :rolleyes:

[tri5ron]

Mcwilly,
I'm glad it was helpful for you.

[jrafter]

would a rex box do the same thing

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by jrafter
would a rex box do the same thing

No.

[blaaze416]

Man, with write-ups like this, (and ebay!) who needs the dealership?!? Got my key and gasket in the mail yesterday. Put it in after work today! Took no time at all....thanx Tri5ron! Cant' wait to see what it does!

Originally posted by blaaze416
Man, with write-ups like this, (and ebay!) who needs the dealership?!? Got my key and gasket in the mail yesterday. Put it in after work today! Took no time at all....thanx Tri5ron! Cant' wait to see what it does!

i'm curious to hear how it runs with the 406 10:1 because thats my next setup when my rings go and stuff.

[blaaze416]

Well, I'm going riding tomorrow, I'll post up when I get back. I can't wait! I started it up today to let it warm up (and bake the high temp black paint I sprayed onto my head pipe while I waited for parts) and revved it a few times, and it seemed to want to rev quicker and almost lighter (more repsonse?).. though I did have the airbox off, it's been running rich and it was cool. From what I heard it's supposed to be fine for a 406 with up to but not including a 12:1 piston. I may take out the stg 2 cam and swap the stocker back in to see if it works any better with my 406 10:1. I'll proly reply again after that little experiment.

[blaaze416]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
I guess if a person was thinking ahead they could crank the flywheel til the "t" mark lines up at TDC, remove stock key, install the new advance key, turn flywheel gently to the left to index the flywheel with the new key (without turning over motor) and place the cover back on temporarily
Then mark the flywheel thru the sight plug for a new timing mark with a marker, remove cover and lightly file a new "advanced" t mark in the flywheel.
Wish I would have thought about this before installing mine.
Anybody do this or something similiar?

Thought about your post while I was out in the garage doing this, and I came to the conclusion that it would be safer for me to just check through the plug hole for TDC instead. I mean usually when I'm checking for TDC, I'm adjusting my vavles and have the front end off anyhow...:cool:

[blaaze416]

Originally posted by FoxHondaRider
i'm curious to hear how it runs with the 406 10:1 because thats my next setup when my rings go and stuff.

Well, after three minutes of riding....my chain broke! literally three minutes. So we'll both have to wait til later this week til I can make it back out.

Originally posted by blaaze416
Well, after three minutes of riding....my chain broke! literally three minutes. So we'll both have to wait til later this week til I can make it back out.

wow that sucks, at least you didnt bust a case open or anything. Get to feel anything in the 1st 3 minutes? lol I went riding today just to get in 1 more ride before I install the key and do an oil change and all my maintainance. I should have a good idea what this key did because I made a step up today using a huge whoop that I pushed a whole lotta sand onto the top and shaped it with a stick and I would hit it and fly over to the backside of a highbank that was flat. Pretty fun but I could only do it in 2nd gear because there were big bumps before so I couldnt go fast into it I would have to roll and peg it in 2nd and fling off and I tried 3rd but way too much bog and i didnt even go any further. So after putting this in maybe I can use 3rd and soar. I did a top speed run through the 1 trail I was doing 4th gear and it was a bit scary because your in a trail and theres bumps and a few slight turns and I held on tight and did a 5th gear pegging it out through the woods run lol. I have it on video actually. Anyways I should be able to pinpoint my improvements by hitting the jump in 3rd and how fast i can get to top speed.

[speedfoxracing]

do u think it was worth the money and time 2 put the timing key in cause i,m debating if i should do it or not seams like a lil bit of work for not much increase. how did u all feel the increase in power was it noticible ?

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by speedfoxracing
do u think it was worth the money and time 2 put the timing key in cause i,m debating if i should do it or not seams like a lil bit of work for not much increase. how did u all feel the increase in power was it noticible ?

first-
It's not about that it gives you a great increase in power.
What it DOES do is greatly improve the throttle responce. in other words, it revs up quicker.
second-
is it worth the money and time?, in my opinion it's the best "bang for your buck" performance mod you can do to a 400ex, and it is about as easy as it gets to install.
Well worth it.

[speedfoxracing]

yea thats wut i thought it did increase the response and also weres the best place 2 get that from

[speedfoxracing]

i found one on ebay but i was reading its not good 4 big bore or high compression. i planing on boring mine 2 a 406 with 10:1 is that fine 2 use with it ? and eventuly i,ll get a stage 1 or 2 cam

[blaaze416]

Sorry the last post was so short, FoxHondaRider. I was just sick with myself for forgetting my master link. Had to go all the way home (45 minute drive) and by the time I had it back on, it was to late to justify the gas money to go back and ride. But in the first three minutes, while making my way through the woods to an open field, I did notice a better, quicker throttle response while low in the rpm's. It did seem to pull quicker through the couple gears I did get it through. Not a whole lot more pull, just a better throttle response. I want to get my carb dialed in again, too. It was rich before, so I leaned the dial down...but I also just ground down the header welds. There was a little popping on deceleration. Next week I'll get her going strong and tell ya what I find.
And speedfoxracing, I guess it all comes down to how obsessed you are with getting all you can from your motor. Myself, I'm obsessed! And for the 25 bones I spent on the part and the 2 hours of a beer drinking, musically enhanced, getting to know your quad time I spent putting it in...I'd say from my three minutes of fun today, that, yes....it is worth it!

just for those wondering about high compression like speedfoxracing, Curtis Sparks says that what they mean by high compression is 12.5:1. also the key is supposed to add some torque and a little HP aswell. For the price and what you get its almost like how could you go wrong. Making your quad all the better for so cheap why not? Honda should have just made the timing advanced from the factory to kick ***

[blaaze416]

Originally posted by speedfoxracing
i found one on ebay but i was reading its not good 4 big bore or high compression. i planing on boring mine 2 a 406 with 10:1 is that fine 2 use with it ? and eventuly i,ll get a stage 1 or 2 cam

Didn't look for it this time, but I read on a post around here that it was quoted from Sparks as being fine for up to a 426, and up to, but not including a 12:1 piston. I hope I remembered right!! :eek:

throttle response wise, mine right now is like instant. Everyone that jumps on my quad is like wow its so torquey feeling and it just goes. I ride any other 400ex and it doesnt have the "pep" that mine does. My choke plate is removed and my jetting is on spot. i hope i dont open up the motor to find that I had an advanced timing key all along lol that would be funny but if thats not the case then dang my quad is going to be like breathe on the throttle and it goes witht he 6* advance. I'm putting it in this week

[speedfoxracing]

yea i,m def goin to have 2 get one and thanks cause i think maybe this week i might do that and sometime in july i,m goin 2 bore it and get a new cam cause i would like 2 go ridin in a couple of weeks and dont want 2 have it not runin and it smokes a good amount and i can feel that its a lil low on compression so i,m prob not goin 2 feel the torq as much but i will when i get all my other stuff done so thanks again

[silenpro]

could i put the sparks key if i have stage 1 hotcam

[speedfoxracing]

yea u should be able 2 and thats wut i,m goin 2 do

yeap no problem at all. actually its better to have the sparks key with a cam than just a cam and no higher compression piston or advanced timing.

[speedfoxracing]

yea i cant wait 2 get mine all done cause i can feel it being slugish i found a place that will bore my cylinder 4 only 42 bucks so i,m goin 2 get on that as quick as posible plus they will dunk it

just wanted to say tri5on, thanks for the write up. You made my installation so much easier because the sparks instructions are garbage. my quad idles better, starts easier, and runs awesome! Everyday now I have to convince my parents to let me do 1 lap around the house because its like a new machine and i want to know it lol I can pull wheelies leaning forward in second just hitting the gas, 1st gear I did a wheelie in my garage it went up so fast. I havent got a chance to go all the way in 2nd or even try 3rd but i hopefully will this weekend. My quad seems to sound deeper. not sure if anyone elses tone changed too

[Gatekeeper]

Word! Im around 275 and first time i gunned it rolling slow in second I thought man the front suspension feels really smooth today--- until I realized the tires were hovering 6" off the ground! Makes it real nice for crossing logs

X2 on the different exhaust note (maybe I need new packing!)

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by FoxHondaRider
just wanted to say tri5on, thanks for the write up. You made my installation so much easier because the sparks instructions are garbage. my quad idles better, starts easier, and runs awesome! I can pull wheelies leaning forward in second just hitting the gas, 1st gear I did a wheelie in my garage it went up so fast. My quad seems to sound deeper. not sure if anyone elses tone changed too

FHR, I'm glad it made your install eaiser. my quad resulted in the same benefits you listed above. It's undoubtedly one of the best "Bang for your Buck" mods you can do to a 400EX.

With as many people that have said they liked the writeup, and how much eaiser it was to do, I'm kind of baffled as to why this thread has'nt made "Sticky Status" yet.

[shok47]

Bringing the thread from its sleep, and hoping to get tri5ron help on this!


So Im gathering the parts ready for this and have read this entire thread, along with another one. This particular post caught me:

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
I guess if a person was thinking ahead they could crank the flywheel til the "t" mark lines up at TDC, remove stock key, install the new advance key, turn flywheel gently to the left to index the flywheel with the new key (without turning over motor) and place the cover back on temporarily
Then mark the flywheel thru the sight plug for a new timing mark with a marker, remove cover and lightly file a new "advanced" t mark in the flywheel.
Wish I would have thought about this before installing mine.
Anybody do this or something similiar?

Is this a recommended step to installation, making it easier??

So after removing all the parts, flywheel, woodruff key and such, I will be ready to install the 6 degree key. Now I just need the shaft to sit so the key slot is facing straight up?? Do I need to have anything preset before installing? such as the TDC idea?


Unfortunately I dont have the Sparks key, but the one on ebay Click here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270251027139&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&viewitem=) On this tutorial it says to have the red part face away from the engine. This key doesnt have a red spot BUT both ends look symmetrical. Your take on this?


So with the key slot facing straight up I can tap in the key lightly and have it flush with the rod. Now comes the reassembly of the flywheel, which is the part Im not getting really. You say:

"Now carefully replace the Flywheel, aligning the Flywheel keyway, with the Sparks Advance key.
Rotate the Flywheel forward to touch the backside of the Sparks key, and slide the Flywheel onto the Crankshaft until it stops."

I dont understand this part. What on the flywheel do I align with the spark key? Is there a slot on the flywheel for the key to slide into? When i get that aligned, I have to rotate the flywheel until the key stops it?



So the two parts im concerned about is the way the shaft of the keyslot should sit during installation, (and if I should have the pistons TDC). And the other conern is the end, when I install the flywheel.

Thanks for the help!

[ae13291]

wow u guys convinced me to order one right now

[Brauap]

Originally posted by DementeD
STICKY!!


Much better right up...
ur bike is definitely in better shape..my gaskets wouldnt come off for crap..i spent atleast an hour tryin to get all of the gasket pieces off..
i really wouldnt be surprised if i end up with a leak..
also my starter cover gasket has to be replaced as well..it was garbage when i took the cover off..

anyway great right up..and should be a sticky..definitely better then the article..

X2!:devil:

Originally posted by shok47
Bringing the thread from its sleep, and hoping to get tri5ron help on this!


So Im gathering the parts ready for this and have read this entire thread, along with another one. This particular post caught me:


Is this a recommended step to installation, making it easier??

So after removing all the parts, flywheel, woodruff key and such, I will be ready to install the 6 degree key. Now I just need the shaft to sit so the key slot is facing straight up?? Do I need to have anything preset before installing? such as the TDC idea?


Unfortunately I dont have the Sparks key, but the one on ebay Click here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270251027139&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&viewitem=) On this tutorial it says to have the red part face away from the engine. This key doesnt have a red spot BUT both ends look symmetrical. Your take on this?


So with the key slot facing straight up I can tap in the key lightly and have it flush with the rod. Now comes the reassembly of the flywheel, which is the part Im not getting really. You say:

"Now carefully replace the Flywheel, aligning the Flywheel keyway, with the Sparks Advance key.
Rotate the Flywheel forward to touch the backside of the Sparks key, and slide the Flywheel onto the Crankshaft until it stops."

I dont understand this part. What on the flywheel do I align with the spark key? Is there a slot on the flywheel for the key to slide into? When i get that aligned, I have to rotate the flywheel until the key stops it?



So the two parts im concerned about is the way the shaft of the keyslot should sit during installation, (and if I should have the pistons TDC). And the other conern is the end, when I install the flywheel.

Thanks for the help!

The thing about the turning the flywheel, thats only on the sparks key.

They just take the key and make the top half thinner, so you have to turn the flywheel to take advantage of the timing.

On the ebay key, you don't need to worry about it. The top is the same width as the bottom but the top is offset to one side. Just slide the flywheel on and be done with it. You dont need to hold it to the left. I run this key from ebay and like it more than the sparks. Easier installation.

The key sits in the shaft, the the other half sticks out. Theres a slot in the flywheel to slide that other half into the flywheel. This keeps the flywheel from freely spinning.

[tri5ron]

SHOK47,
Sorry for not replying sooner, last few days have been very busy.

as for your original question, reguarding Gatekeepers quote, it is not necessary to do the remarking of the timing mark, for the installation of the advance key,... but could be a nice little extra if you were inclined to do it.

In other words,... it's not necessary for the actual installation of the key,.... but it could be of benefit in reguards to future maintainence servicing, for other items that might require a specific position of the flywheel.

and as far as the rest of your question, as DMC-400EX has stated, the ebay key is probably the "offset" type, and would not require rotating the flywheel to the left.
(and, yes your flywheel does have a notch, (Keyway), for the protruding part of the key to fit into.

I mentioned in my tutorial that Sparks has apparently switched their original "Notched" key, to the better design "Offset" type key.
The "notched" key requires rotating the flywheel 6 degrees to the left, (front ) of your quad.
The "offset" type does it for you.

With that all said,... IF, the ebay key is the "notched" type, and does not have the red mark, then dont worry,... just make sure you put it in so that the NOTCH is towards the rear of the quad.

and, No, you do not have to have your piston at TDC to properly do this installation.

I hope this makes it more clear/understandable for you.

[shok47]

Thanks for the reply you two, really helped me.

So all I have to do is put the key in and slide the flywheel back on and bolt it up.

I dont have to worry about the flywheel position at anytime since this is the offset key.

just to confirm :D and once its confirmed Im ready to go!

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by shok47
Thanks for the reply you two, really helped me.

So all I have to do is put the key in and slide the flywheel back on and bolt it up.

I dont have to worry about the flywheel position at anytime since this is the offset key.

just to confirm :D and once its confirmed Im ready to go!

consider this your conformation.....
now get on with the gettin' it on !

[SandGeek]

Very sweet how to!

Let me start my post by saying I am guy is willing to take risks in pursuit of performance. I have built some fast stuff and blown up a ton of engines and wasted a ton of money along the way. This is meant as a warning/disclaimer for what I am about to say:

I run a 6* key in my 11:1-440 (89mm piston, not stroked), stage 2 cam, hi rev box, big gun exhaust.

Had it in awhile now (about 20 hours) and no issues to report. I ride the woods a little but mostly sand, if something is going to blow, its gonna happen in the sand.

Currently I don't have any heat reducing mods but I do plan on a them in the future just for insurance sake. I do change my oil religiously every 8 hours. Seriously, if I go for a weekend, I take an oil change with me and change the morning of day 2. Maintenance is the bridge between performance and longevity.

Let me tell ya, the ol' girl flat gets it when you hit the gas!

I know Sparks has to disclaim this to cover themselves. As with my disclaimer at the top, if you try this and it blows, its not my fault. Quite honestly, I expected it to blow...so far so good.

Anyway, I have read a lot of speculation on here about this but no real reason 'why not' so I figured I would test it out.


sg

Originally posted by SandGeek
Very sweet how to!

Let me start my post by saying I am guy is willing to take risks in pursuit of performance. I have built some fast stuff and blown up a ton of engines and wasted a ton of money along the way. This is meant as a warning/disclaimer for what I am about to say:

I run a 6* key in my 11:1-440 (89mm piston, not stroked), stage 2 cam, hi rev box, big gun exhaust.

Had it in awhile now (about 20 hours) and no issues to report. I ride the woods a little but mostly sand, if something is going to blow, its gonna happen in the sand.

Currently I don't have any heat reducing mods but I do plan on a them in the future just for insurance sake. I do change my oil religiously every 8 hours. Seriously, if I go for a weekend, I take an oil change with me and change the morning of day 2. Maintenance is the bridge between performance and longevity.

Let me tell ya, the ol' girl flat gets it when you hit the gas!

I know Sparks has to disclaim this to cover themselves. As with my disclaimer at the top, if you try this and it blows, its not my fault. Quite honestly, I expected it to blow...so far so good.

Anyway, I have read a lot of speculation on here about this but no real reason 'why not' so I figured I would test it out.


sg

Someone on this site called Curtis Sparks, and sparks said that they consider high-compression 12.5:1 and up. So you'll be safe with 11.1:1

[SandGeek]

Originally posted by DMC-4OOEX
Someone on this site called Curtis Sparks, and sparks said that they consider high-compression 12.5:1 and up. So you'll be safe with 11.1:1

Ya, thats why I decided to go for it. The sketchy part was I read "up to a 426" so I didn't know how it would handle the 440.

I like it, I like it a lot! :D

[ae13291]

i just put in the key, but i taped the key in with a hammer, i dont know if the little scuffs on it would be considered damage or not, so i put the flywheel back on and turned it to the left all the way. but how can i verify 100% that the timing is at its full 6 degress?

[tri5ron]

1- first, if it is only little scuffs, then I'd bet that you dont have anything to worry about, as long as you didnt hit it so hard that you actually distorted the key or keyway.

2- did you get the key with a sigle notch on the top side only,...
or was the key the "offset" type ?

if you got the "offset" type then it only goes on one way, and you should be fine.

if you got the nothed type, then all you had to do is turn the flywheel to the left so that it, (the flywheel), was touching the notch in the key, as you tightened the flywheel back on.

how is the throttle responce now? is it quicker/snappier? if so, then all is good.

[ae13291]

i wish i could start it, i broke the starter cover gasket so i went to the dealer and found out i had to order it:( so now i have to wait a few days. but i want to guarantee for sure its advanced 6 degrees and not only 4. i noticed that after tightening the main bolt a bit the flywheel sat in place and dident move so i think i should be fine. my key was notched on the top to one side

[shok47]

How many taps does it take you to get the cover loose? Im tapping it all around but nothing is happening. Could I use some fire to heat it up???

[BossHogg420]

no no no.....the cover is magnitized due to the magnet on the inside...mine was hard to get off at first u just got to tap with rubber hammer and wiggle off

[shok47]

got it off. I have the rear end up on a cinder block, the long way and its lost alot of oil, still dribbling.

How do I disconnect the wire that goes to the case? from the other end??/

[BossHogg420]

no just put it to the side on the footpegs or something

[shok47]

about removing the gasket:

Do you guys complete scrape off every piece until you see the bare metal?

waiting to get a 24" adj. wrench from friend.

should I put sealant on it when Im reinstalling the case?

[Pipeless416]

well im jumping on the bandwagon for this mod now haha. i need a flywheel puller to install a new starter clutch, so why not get the key while im in there. i also got a four stroke tech oil cooler that i will be installing, so im not too concerned about heat..:devil:

[bean2080]

tri5on, awesome job on this! i have my 400 all tore down and im putting the 6* key in it and boring it .20 over with 11:1, i sure hope its ok. sparks says high compression up to 12.5:1 is fine though so i should be good. i am going to make my own new mark to replace the old "T" so i can set my valves easier. i cant wait to get this all done, hopefully when i gas it for the first time it will throw me off :D :rolleyes:

just wondering about adjusting the valves does it absolutley have to be on the timing mark? i mean wouldnt it work the same anytime the rockers are loose when you wiggle them? Basically i'm thinking go to the timing mark like you normally would and see if the rockers will wiggle. If they wiggle wouldnt it mean its good to go?

[bean2080]

Originally posted by FoxHondaRider
just wondering about adjusting the valves does it absolutley have to be on the timing mark? i mean wouldnt it work the same anytime the rockers are loose when you wiggle them? Basically i'm thinking go to the timing mark like you normally would and see if the rockers will wiggle. If they wiggle wouldnt it mean its good to go?

i would think so, IMO it dont matter where the T mark is just as long as the rockers are loose, i might be wrong though but thats the way i would do it. that is how i acually did it on all my other quads, just thought i would try something different on this one.

[shok47]

Ok, Im not sure which way the key goes in. I drew a picture for you to see what it looks like. Will the lip face the rear or the front of the quad??


http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/1926/asasbm3.jpg


EDIT

NVM, tri5 mentioned it should face the rear of the quad. Off I go!

[drillteamleader]

should face the front if I remember correctly.

[rcatvrider]

As long as the rockers are loose you should be fine when adjusting valves. It's not like the valves slowly open and close. I'm getting the key soon and will be adjusting my valves prior to installation as I have a whole list of maintenance and performance things to do and figure I might as well do the valves while I'm at it.

[shok47]

Originally posted by drillteamleader
should face the front if I remember correctly. .

I put it facing the rear like tri5 mentioned with the notch facing toward the rear. There is indeed some extra power, but to bad this weather makes the wheels slip.

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by shok47
Ok, Im not sure which way the key goes in. I drew a picture for you to see what it looks like. Will the lip face the rear or the front of the quad??


http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/1926/asasbm3.jpg


EDIT

NVM, tri5 mentioned it should face the rear of the quad. Off I go!


you have one of the "offset" types.

The "LIP" should be towards the FRONT.
The "Notch" should be towards the REAR.

The idea to keep in mind here is,....

That the Flywheel is "Clocked" farther FORWARD,
(In relation to the crankshaft),
than it was positioned originally.

[shok47]

ah, man.
well its too cold now, do tomorrow. then I can hit those jumps I made with the snow we got today. :D

How should I lift my quad so the oil doesnt leak out? I put it up on a cinder block the vertical way on the rear and it leaked almost all of it out. should I slant the bike so the case is facing up?

[shok47]

Well I switched it today and was hitting the jumps around the house. After awhile it stopped and I could only hear the starter turning the gears so I assumed something in the starter. Check the gears and they moved freely both ways:eek: took off the case cover AGAIN and the flywheel bolt was loose and it slid out. I wasnt going to check the key but I was like what the heck, the flywheel is already off. Lo and behold the key got demolished

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/4232/img0337lz1.jpg
http://s5.tinypic.com/r9psnc.jpg

[rcatvrider]

What did you tighten the flywheel down with? I am planning on using an impact for the removal and reassembly. Anyone know if red loctite can withstand enough heat to be in a motor?

[shok47]

I used an adjustable wrench and an SK long sock wrench thing that Tri5 used. When I took it off the first time I didnt have to rest the big adj. wrench, I simply held both of them with hands. It also gave me more feel of how tight it was when I need to reassemble

[tri5ron]

Proper torque is always very important, but it is ESPECIALLY important on anything that is spinning.
I had put this in the instructions because it is very important to get it right.

**Put the Large Adjustable Wrench back onto the flats of the Flywheel, and find a solid place to rest the wrench handle.

Using a Torque Wrence set to 94 ft/lbs, tighten the Flywheel bolt.
(this method will insure that you a keeping the Flywheel "turned to the left").**

Sorry to hear yours wasn't tightened/torqued properly.
Hopefully it didn't mess up the keyways too much.

Do you have a pic of the keyways on the crankshaft, and inside the flywheel that you could post here?

Also, I am curious if your particular key was ordered directly from Sparks, or is it one of the ones sold on ebay ?
just wondering...

[katch26]

Originally posted by rcatvrider
What did you tighten the flywheel down with? I am planning on using an impact for the removal and reassembly. Anyone know if red loctite can withstand enough heat to be in a motor?

ehhh...some may tell you its ok but as many times Ive had the flywheel on and off my predator Ive never had luck getting it to torque properly with the Loctite. Directions will always tell you to engine oil the thread to get a proper torque reading and I don't think the loctite is as slick as oil and would cause the wrench to trip early.....but to each their own. I will say that when my nut came loose it wasted the key (like pic posted) the one-way starter gear and the reduction gears. Different bike but similar results I'm sure.
JMO

[rcatvrider]

I don't have access to a torque wrench. Only regular ratchets and an impact wrench. I was just considering loctite to keep the bolt in there, I do not want failure. 90+ ft/lb is quite a bit am I correct? If I really have to I can borrow a torque wrench from someone.

[shok47]

I put tightened the bolt just about the same tightness I felt taking it off. I didnt want to take the chance of stripping it, or is it not that likely? If it isnt that Likely I give it more power.

Im not sure how to do 94ft/lb How do you go about doing that? any tips?

[tri5ron]

bottom line---

If you do not use a torque wrench, you are taking a chance of doing the same thing again, and/or stripping out the bolt or end of the crankshaft.

That would be a very expensive lesson in patience and proper use of tools/equipment.
(you dont want to mess it up again, and then need to replace the crankshaft)

so it's up to you, but my suggestion is to find/buy/borrow one before you try to put it back on.

so are you going to tell us which key it was,(Sparks vs ebay), and put up some pics of the keyways on the crankshaft and inside the flywheel? I'm VERY interested to see both.

[rcatvrider]

I should be able to get a hold of a torque wrench, I don't want to strip and break anything in the motor. Now I just have to remember to hold that firmly to the left while tightening the bolt.

[shok47]

it was the ebay key.

I have a torque wrench but how do you estimate the lb/ft when tightening?

Ill get pictures today

[rcatvrider]

If you have a torque wrench there is no estimation, that's the point. You just set it and wait for the click.

[katch26]

Originally posted by rcatvrider
I should be able to get a hold of a torque wrench, I don't want to strip and break anything in the motor. Now I just have to remember to hold that firmly to the left while tightening the bolt.

most autopart stores will let you rent them....I know autozone does

[shok47]

The stock key still fits very snug. I put it back on and this time I gave it a good tightness. hopefully it will stay. Ill ride it a few more times and check on it to be sure.


http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/967/img0344rt7.jpg
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/791/img0342am6.jpg

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/5106/img0346km1.jpg
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2404/img0347pb3.jpg

[rcatvrider]

Just started installing mine. The side cover was really hard to get off. Finally got it off and the gasket was garbage and stuck everywhere so I spent the last 20mins getting all of the gasket off. There's still some on the case I have to remove. Actual key installation was was easy but the gasket is giving me alot of trouble.

[shok47]

yeah the gasket takes the longest. I used an xacto knife, then found my thumb finger nail worked alot better

[rcatvrider]

Took a breather for a while and got back to it. Took the case saver off and got in there good . Made a new gasket and reassembled. Can't wait to try it.

[tri5ron]

just a bump to assist some members currently doing this mod.

[MAKO19]

I just installed mine last night and everything seems to be good. The only thing I didn't understand was where this write up says to put the key all the way into the key way and the Curtis Sparks instructions say to make sure it is level in the key way. Why don't they say, "tap the key all the way into the key way and make sure it is level."

When I tapped mine into place all the way in it didn't look like there was that much of the key sticking out of the crank. So I took it out and tapped it back in so that the lip of the key was completely flush with the crank. Then when I went to install the flywheel it didn't want to slide on for the first little bit. So I took the flywheel off again and tapped in the key so that the lip was just under the finished surface of the crank. This time I was able to slide on the flywheel and rotate it to the left and tighten it down. Does this sound right? I mean the key may or may not be 100% completely in the key way but, maybe after I slide the flywheel back on, it seated everything. I started it up and everything seems fine. Just wondering if anyone knows what I am talking about???

[Homerx]

Originally posted by MAKO19
I just installed mine last night and everything seems to be good. The only thing I didn't understand was where this write up says to put the key all the way into the key way and the Curtis Sparks instructions say to make sure it is level in the key way. Why don't they say, "tap the key all the way into the key way and make sure it is level."

When I tapped mine into place all the way in it didn't look like there was that much of the key sticking out of the crank. So I took it out and tapped it back in so that the lip of the key was completely flush with the crank. Then when I went to install the flywheel it didn't want to slide on for the first little bit. So I took the flywheel off again and tapped in the key so that the lip was just under the finished surface of the crank. This time I was able to slide on the flywheel and rotate it to the left and tighten it down. Does this sound right? I mean the key may or may not be 100% completely in the key way but, maybe after I slide the flywheel back on, it seated everything. I started it up and everything seems fine. Just wondering if anyone knows what I am talking about???

Yes I know exactly what you mean the sparks key seem to seat too far down in the keyway, i did mine the same way that you did. Your good to go.

[MAKO19]

Originally posted by Homerx
Yes I know exactly what you mean the sparks key seem to seat too far down in the keyway, i did mine the same way that you did. Your good to go.

Thanks bro. That makes me feel better!

[Homerx]

Originally posted by MAKO19
Thanks bro. That makes me feel better!

Now you need to add it to your sig :cool:

[MAKO19]

One more thing. Has anyone ever had the flywheel turn back to the right on them when they tightened it with an impact gun? I don't think mine did but didn't really measure it to see.

[tri5ron]

Mako19,
A Impact is not a Torque Wrench.
They are two different tools, for two different purposes.

There is extensive discussion on this on pages 6 and 7 of this thread, as well as pictures of what happens when this is not done properly.

I respectfully,

and Highly suggest,

that you go back and Read those pages VERY carefully. You need to do the re-installation properly,
using a proper TORQUE Wrench,...
NOT a Impact Gun.

[MAKO19]

Originally posted by tri5ron
Mako19,
A Impact is not a Torque Wrench.
They are two different tools, for two different purposes.

There is extensive discussion on this on pages 6 and 7 of this thread, as well as pictures of what happens when this is not done properly.

I respectfully,

and Highly suggest,

that you go back and Read those pages VERY carefully. You need to do the re-installation properly,
using a proper TORQUE Wrench,...
NOT a Impact Gun.

Yeah I'm aware they are 2 different tools. I read somewhere that you can reinstall with the impact gun and that's why I did it. I will take it back apart tonight and do it over with the torque wrench. One more thing tri5ron, did you tap your key all the way into the key way as well or did you tap it down enough to fit into the flywheel and make sure it was aligned?

Thanks again for the input and write up!

[Dangerous400EX]

When the key is in right the fat part of the key will be flush with the crank. The offset, or narrower, part will be the only part sticking up.

Make sure the red portion is pointing away from the bike of course.

[MAKO19]

Originally posted by Dangerous400EX
When the key is in right the fat part of the key will be flush with the crank. The offset, or narrower, part will be the only part sticking up.

Make sure the red portion is pointing away from the bike of course.

My key way must be a little different or there is an error in the Curtis key because I can get this thing all the way down and even and the fat part is into the crank a bit. ???

[Dangerous400EX]

You have the Curtis Sparks key and not another brand right?

The important thing is to have enough of the key sticking up to hold the flywheel in place. If you dont have that you should contact Sparks racing.

If it "sinks in" a thousandths or two that would not be a big deal, but too much and it could shear off and you would be stranded somewhere

[motox92]

great write up

[MAKO19]

Alright I went back out to the barn and tore it apart again. This time armed with Verniers, a depth micrometer, and torque wrench. I took the old key and the Sparks key and measured them with the Vernier calipers and they were dead nuts identical. I then installed the old key and checked the distance from the top of the key to the adjacent surface on the crank. Then I popped it out and installed the Sparks key and took another measurement. It was +/- 0.001" different from stock. I guess the thinner look of the sparks key makes it look like there is less key sticking out of the crank. Then (as directed) I put everything back together and torqued the flywheel bolt to 94 ft-lbs and she is up and running again.

Moral of the story, make sure the key is seated all the way in the key way and even.

We're supposed to get some good weather around here tomorrow so I can't wait to go raise a little hell in the woods after work and test this thing out!!

Thanks again for all the help guys. :cool:

[tri5ron]

good job,
I'm confident you'll be pleased, (and maybe even a little impressed), with the results.

make sure you sit/lean a little farther forward than usual, for your first launch.
If you've got good traction, the front end may be a bit 'lighter', and will probably stand up a little quicker than you are used to.

enjoy...

Originally posted by tri5ron
good job,
I'm confident you'll be pleased, (and maybe even a little impressed), with the results.

make sure you sit/lean a little farther forward than usual, for your first launch.
If you've got good traction, the front end may be a bit 'lighter', and will probably stand up a little quicker than you are used to.

enjoy...

Thats exactly what I did followng your instructions through the whole thing. You were spot on. I was sitting on the tank lifting it up

[tri5ron]

here's a little shot from last weekend.
keep a few things in mind while looking at the pic...

1- I am 180lbs, and sitting on the front tip of the seat, and a 85-90 lbs kid is sitting behind me. (approx. 265 lbs on the seat)

2- engine wise, it's dang near stock.
All it's got is, a big gun full exhaust, k&n, lid removed , jetted, and Sparks key.

Stock bore/compression piston, Stock cam, Stock carb, Stock rev limiter, Stock gearing.

We are on a hardpack dirt road, and Turf Tamer rear tires.

No double clutching, No leaning back, No yanking on the bars.
This is simply a 3rd gear, Roll-on power. No snapping the throttle.

Yeah, I like the Sparks key alot.

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n148/tri5ron/03%20400ex/IMG_9201.jpg

[Pabst_Powered]

great write up, this is what used...now for a quick ?. if you were to do this wrong would it still start and run fine, cause when i did this i didnt feel any change in the least, ran like it always did

Originally posted by Pabst_Powered
great write up, this is what used...now for a quick ?. if you were to do this wrong would it still start and run fine, cause when i did this i didnt feel any change in the least, ran like it always did

i'm guessing you didnt hold the flywheel to the side to advance it and its at stock timing

[Dangerous400EX]

Also if you were on the lean side before with your jetting, you would be even leaner now and probably would not see much of a difference

[BEAVER.989]

I have a silly question... Is there any reason not to do this mod? Does it effect reliabilty, or anything like that?

[Young_Gun1]

has anyone had a problem with this mod and aftermarket pistons
sparks description actually says only to use it with stock pistons

Originally posted by Young_Gun1
has anyone had a problem with this mod and aftermarket pistons
sparks description actually says only to use it with stock pistons

never saw that it just says dont run with 12.5:1 and up pistons.

[Young_Gun1]

this is what it says on sparks page

The 400EX in stock form is very low compression and responds extremely well to advancing the timing 6 degrees. The Sparks Racing Ignition Advance Key advances the timing 6 degrees. There are no side affects from the installation of this key. It must only be used in conjuction with a stock piston. This key works great with any other modification, Hi-rev CDI's, performance camshafts, carburetor kits, etc. Just not high compression or big bore pistons. We also include a flywheel puller for your convenience.

Originally posted by Young_Gun1
this is what it says on sparks page

The 400EX in stock form is very low compression and responds extremely well to advancing the timing 6 degrees. The Sparks Racing Ignition Advance Key advances the timing 6 degrees. There are no side affects from the installation of this key. It must only be used in conjuction with a stock piston. This key works great with any other modification, Hi-rev CDI's, performance camshafts, carburetor kits, etc. Just not high compression or big bore pistons. We also include a flywheel puller for your convenience.

hm dont remember seeing that before about the stock piston. Sparks says its fine for anything under 12.5:1

[Young_Gun1]

awesome
does everyone still use the T mark to find TDC or go through the spark plug hole?

[Wheelie]

Ordered a Sparks Key this morning. After extensive research I decided to order one.

The combination of a short rod stroker and ethanol I feel will respond well to the added timing. The added cooling properties of the Ethanol will offset any added heat, not to mention my blend combo yields about 101-102 octane. With a skosh over 11:1 compression, it should work well.

I'll find out next weekend.:macho

Originally posted by Young_Gun1
awesome
does everyone still use the T mark to find TDC or go through the spark plug hole?

I used the spark plug hole. Does it have to be exactly TDC when adjusting the valves and such? Or can it be a little before or after as long as the rocker arms wiggle and dont have pressure on them? I say that because the cam lobes arent always on the rocker arms, its not like the only place they dont touch is TDC.

[Speedy 400ex]

After lots of thinking i ordered my Key today. I cant wait to try it out!

[honda400-4-ever]

how well do u like the results of the key???

[Wheelie]

I got to test the key out this weekend, and I love it!

No changes were necessary to the pilot jet or needle setting, however, I'm going to bump the main jet (I'll have to drill one or have it done) to a 240.

Throttle response and low end power are much improved and the quad revs much quicker.

[Speedy 400ex]

I'm not going to get mine tell the end of the week.:(
I was just thinking that couldn't one just advance the timing by rotating the cam sprocket?

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by Speedy 400ex
I'm not going to get mine tell the end of the week.:(
I was just thinking that couldn't one just advance the timing by rotating the cam sprocket?
No.

Ignition timing, and Cam/Valve timing,
are two completly different things.

[Speedy 400ex]

Ya your right. I had forgotten that the key advanced the spark timing not the cam timing lol:rolleyes: Thanks though.

[Speedy 400ex]

Well i got my key in now i just need to go Ride...NOW!

[Newrider08]

Thank you SO much for this great instructional, I viewed this 40 times while waiting on my key to get here from Curtis Sparks and I blew right through it in 45 minutes and that was even tracking down the tools and scraping gasket.

I am not a super mechanical person, I have basic knowledge and basic tools and your write up was SPOT ON.

My quad is much more responsive, starts easier, and seems to have more power, oh and my exhaust sounds a little deeper for some reason but sounds good

[tri5ron]

your welcome,
I'm glad it was helpful for you, and I'm sure you will be pleased with the improved performance.
I sure do like mine !, and in my opinion,
it is about the best "Bang for your Buck" mod you can do to a stock, or slightly modified 400ex.
enjoy,
Ron

[richards]

Something to think about if you are doing this mod...

Other offset keys I have seen for other applications are different than the Sparks. Looks like Sparks just machines a bit off a standard key so you can rotate the flywheel. True offset keys are the same width top and bottom so the key completely fills the keyway on both parts.

With the Sparks you have to hold the flywheel to the left when tightening because the top of the key is not as wide as the keyway in the flywheel. This can lead to a failure like shown earlier in this thread - the key can break if the flywheel loosens and is allowed to slam back and forth.

In an attempt to avoid this I filled the gap in the keyway with a length of stainless lock wire that is close in diameter to the gap. I cut the wire to be the length of the flywheel keyway, rotated the flywheel left as per the Sparks instructions, then slid the wire into the gap on the left. Once you install the crank bolt this wire cannot come out, it is trapped between the washer on the back of the flywheel and washer/bolt on the front of the flywheel.

Maybe not required as long as you tighten to the correct torque, but I feel better having a failsafe that will not allow the flywheel to move and beat on the key.

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by richards
Something to think about if you are doing this mod...

Other offset keys I have seen for other applications are different than the Sparks. Looks like Sparks just machines a bit off a standard key so you can rotate the flywheel. True offset keys are the same width top and bottom so the key completely fills the keyway on both parts.

With the Sparks you have to hold the flywheel to the left when tightening because the top of the key is not as wide as the keyway in the flywheel. This can lead to a failure like shown earlier in this thread - the key can break if the flywheel loosens and is allowed to slam back and forth.

In an attempt to avoid this I filled the gap in the keyway with a length of stainless lock wire that is close in diameter to the gap. I cut the wire to be the length of the flywheel keyway, rotated the flywheel left as per the Sparks instructions, then slid the wire into the gap on the left. Once you install the crank bolt this wire cannot come out, it is trapped between the washer on the back of the flywheel and washer/bolt on the front of the flywheel.

Maybe not required as long as you tighten to the correct torque, but I feel better having a failsafe that will not allow the flywheel to move and beat on the key.
That's not a bad idea !
I kind of wish I'd thought of it, while doing mine.

(Some people here have stated that they recieved an actual "offset" key, but most apparently are the "milled notch" type)

Mine is the notch type,
and had I thought of your idea,... I'd have done the same thing. good job.

I can see another advantage to using the wire too, ..
It would also assist in holding the flywheel to the left, as the flywheel bolt is being torqued.

and for anyone who is using this "How To", for your own installation, I can not stress enough, the importance of using a PROPER Torque Wrench, AND Proper torque spec.

[grassman]

thats a awesome idea... I got my key in 2 days ago and have been waiting on the gaskets... i was wondering about the whole idea of having extra space on the crank because of the notch. and i heard its easy to sheer off if it gets loose.. i am definitely using the wire to fill the gap... good looking out richards......

[bigbad400]

i got the actual offset key with mine but that is a good idea, i was wondering about that until i got an offset key, great product to by the way, and x2 on the PROPER TORQUE WRENCH AND SPECS.

[grassman]

put the key in today... works great! no problems. i used a piece of mig wire to fill the gap in the flywheel. i was able to ride mine then ride my friends without the key and with all the same mods. it makes it allot snappier on the low end... very happy. these directions were spot on... thanx

[Ryan'07400ex]

This should already be a sticky. So many people can get this its just 20 bucks. I am buying one tomorrow and with these pictures i know what to do.

[honda400-4-ever]

x2 definatly :D

[Wheelie]

Update on the key on modded engines, from my experience.

I got a good test on the key last weekend in the dunes in warmer weather. Even on 100 octane fuel there was a slight ping under heavy loads in the 5-6k rpm range once the engine got warm. The key created enough extra engine heat, this combined with the extra timing caused the pinging.

Today I put the stock key in a milling machine and shaved .030 off it for a timing advance of 4 degrees and installed it in place of the Sparks key. The quad runs just as strong with the 4* advance as it did with the 6*.

I think this will cure the pinging issue without killing performance as the quad responds very well to added timing.

[BEAVER.989]

Didn't somebody offer a 3 or 4 degree key at one time?

[Wheelie]

Originally posted by BEAVER.989
Didn't somebody offer a 3 or 4 degree key at one time?

I've heard that as well, I've been looking for awhile for one without any luck. From my experience so far, a 3-4 degree would be the money shot for modded engine, 6 degrees is a touch too much.

[Snipe]

I totally agree its not only better but even better quality pics! that is were it really counts in the article the pics sucked so bad glad someone took the time and didnt rush through it.

But hey gotta still love the sight for being here lmao.

[honda400-4-ever]

two questions:

1. my torque wrench only goes in inches, im not very good a math so could u help me out here.

2. would should i torque the outside bolts...in inch/lbs

[katch26]

multiply by 12
so 84'' lbs

[ilikedirt]

Bump & subscribed

[Ba9801]

I just ordered my side case cover gasket from Service Honda.. I will put my Sparks key in as soon as the gasket comes. I was going to try to take it apart without damaging the gasket but I dont want the bike to be down if things dont go so well. So I will wait a couple more days.

Oh and the directions you have given are great. Really well done for people that have not taken an engine apart before.
:)

[omeeomy]

my 400 is all stock
except for
k&n filter with outer wear
slip on pipe
and a cdi box red one (idk)
so will i need the 6 degree or the 4 degree
and if i do this will i have to rejet or will it stay the same?
anyone help me out?
thanks

[Ryan'07400ex]

Originally posted by omeeomy
my 400 is all stock
except for
k&n filter with outer wear
slip on pipe
and a cdi box red one (idk)
so will i need the 6 degree or the 4 degree
and if i do this will i have to rejet or will it stay the same?
anyone help me out?
thanks

You'd be fine with 6 as long as your enigne is stock, It may make it a bit hotter but it wont be that big of a deal. I put a fan on mine just cause it was cheap and I had the stuff to do it.

Usually ppl use 4 or 3 with a big bore or higher compression

[omeeomy]

so i wont have to rejet?

[omeeomy]

anyone?

[rob_990]

you shouldnt have to

[omeeomy]

thanks rob sounds like a winter project

[danzigg]

can you still set the timing using the tdc marks on the fly wheel?
thanks.

[bkelley]

Great tutorial. I just ordered my key and will be using this for sure.

I also made a more printer friendly version that has smaller pictures. Comes out to 14 pages instead of 32. It can be opened in Word and printed.

It can be downloaded here if anyone is interested: http://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=87c0dea135&view=att&th=124bbc9052aa6514&attid=0.1&disp=attd&realattid=f_g1l48rfq0&zw

[Mustangous]

where are you guys getting your keys from? I looked on sparks website but didnt see it... maybe i missed it???

[Mustangous]

never mind. found it under elecrtical....

[lyrikz74]

I just finished this install. Thanks for the writeup... Im having OPPOSITE effects it seems everyone else is.

My bike is a 08 400 ex. I just have a muffler, air filter, and one tooth down on front sprocket. What im seeing is it feels like the low end is gone. Before i was poppin wheelies all the time. NOw, the front end doesnt want to come up. I am riding in the sand.

So, is it that there is so much more power the wheel is just spinning, or am i missing something. THe midrange feels a tiny bit better, but not worth losing the fun low end.

Thoughts? My sparks key is the notched one.. VERY hard to install incorrectly. Red side out.... Any help?

[skullracer34]

what kind of difference does the 6 degree kee make and if i have my cam gear advanced is that the same difference or can you do both

[Nathan91]

There anywhere cheaper to get the key? I know is only 20 on Spark's site but they want to charge 11.51 for shipping to Illinois, and that seems a little high for the little key and flywheel puller, so its like 31.51 for the part plus another 15 or so for the gasket, so im almost to 50 bucks for what i thought would be a 30 buck upgrade at most. Im a poor college student, I need cheap upgrades. But if im just being cheap and there isn't anywhere else just let me know. Thanks

[omeeomy]

check out magic racing .com thats were i got mine

[Nathan91]

That saved me about 6 bucks! thanks for the help omeeomy

[omeeomy]

good im glad any time i can help

[DirtyBirdRacing]

I have been looking in to getting a Sparks Key for my 01 I will def use this if/when I get it thanks for the post this will make installing it easyier.

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by DirtyBirdRacing
I have been looking in to getting a Sparks Key for my 01 I will def use this if/when I get it thanks for the post this will make installing it easyier. Glad you found it useful and informative. it's a great mod, and "best bang for your buck" for a basically internally stock engine.

+6 key is fine to use for:....

up to 10.5:1 compression,
up to a 426 bore,
stage 1 or 2 cam,
450r or comparable carb upgrade,
any aftermarket exhaust and or intake,

If you plan on going to a bigger bore kit, or higher compession, then send "Wheelie" a PM, and he will set you up with a +3 key.

Keep in mind, bigger bores, and higher compressions also come with their own additional issues on the 400ex engine.
yeah,..... they can be done,... but you need to seriously read up and learn about biger oil coolers, spal fans, HD studs, etc.
There is also a REALLY cool oil mod that runs cooled oil straight into the valve cover.
It does take a little work, with drilling and tapping, but seems like a great idea to me.

Maybe Steve will chime in and provide a link to the "How to" for that mod. Also there was recently a memeber who did a GREAT mod/install on a oversized oil cooler. very well done, and a very clean install. I'd like to see a link to THAT "how to" also.

Steve, are you familiar with the one I'm reffering to ?
Can you provide a link?
I'd like to do that one, along with the "into the valve cover" one too.

BTW, stay the hell away from any of the aftermarket revboxes, and monstercoils. I don't care what anyone says,.... they are simply a waste of money., do nothing for performance, and are basically a joke in the real world.
Bottom line is, the 400ex is a HIGHLY modifiable, and great quad to handle some decent performance and dependability improvements.

BUT,... it IS still a 400ex, and should be dealt with accordingly.
If you are looking to build a groundpounding, trench ripping, wild assed, killer race machine,... then the 400ex is NOT the machine to be dumping your cash on.

on the other hand,...
If you wnt to learn about how to improve and perfect, on a already fantastic Trail, XC, Open desert, Enduro machine,
that wil provide YEARS, or reliable, respectable performance,
has above average handleing, and capabilities, and can do 90% of the high performance, lower reliability, higher maintaince race machines,... then you have made a perfect choce in the 400EX, that will be a blast to ride, and never let you down with just average maintaince requirements.

(not that I'm opinionated on the subject, or anything like that,.....)

[2001400exrida]

you can run up to a 426 with 11:1 without having to go with any cooling upgrades (i.e. bigger oil cooler, spal fan,)

I hate to play devils advocate again buuuuttttt.

This key is over-rated. It's not as cheap as most say, plus you have to put some labor into it.

Bang for the buck doesn't include gaskets and 2 hours of garage time.

I know we all love to work on our quads, but i'm just saying, although the part is small and little it takes some time to get it in the quad.

I would rather take my 2 hours and put it towards a new 426 kit with 11:1 compression, that would pep the whole thing up! more power not just more throttle response!

don't the rev boxes have advanced timing curves? they are a bit more expensive but they are just plug and play.

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by 2001400exrida
you can run up to a 426 with 11:1 without having to go with any cooling upgrades (i.e. bigger oil cooler, spal fan,)
yes, but if you run slower speeds on trail type riding, with lower airflow, you WILL run the risk of significantly higher temps, as well as, at 11:1 compression you will ALSO run the risk of detonation on anything under 91 octane.

I hate to play devils advocate again buuuuttttt.
This key is over-rated. It's not as cheap as most say, plus you have to put some labor into it.

Bang for the buck doesn't include gaskets and 2 hours of garage time.

.$50 bux is not cheap? but you'll happily drop many more hundreds of dollars on a exhaust that will result in a mere1 to 2 hp? And Labor required? seriously? you have to remove the side cover and flywheel and reinstall. why would that take 2 hours? Besides, if you read the post, you would see that the very first thing I refer to reguarding the key, is that it is the best bang for your buck on a internally stock engine. There ae PLENTY of people on this thread, and on this forum who will gladly support that iea with their own experiences and satisactions. your statements/arguments, are all out of context, to the original intent, of my last post.

I know we all love to work on our quads, but i'm just saying, although the part is small and little it takes some time to get it in the quad.

.So what ? because it is small, you'd expect to just drop it into the fuel tank or something?

I would rather take my 2 hours and put it towards a new 426 kit with 11:1 compression, that would pep the whole thing up! more power not just more throttle response!

And are you suggesting that is ALL you'd need to do, and everhing will be happy and wonderful?, no expensive exhaust or intake?, no hours and hours of rejetting and trial and error of frustration?... plug and play power with nothing else to consider?,... I think not.

don't the rev boxes have advanced timing curves? they are a bit more expensive but they are just plug and play.So admitting the rev boxes are more expensive yet them being "Plug and play" as you claim is ok now?, What you seem to be leaving out here is the fact that that 400ex, BY DESIGN, ...CAN NOT BENEFIT from the added 1000 rpm limit, due to it makes all of it's USEABLE power WELL BELOW the factory rexbox limits. this means that you are wasting your money to gain nothing of benefit to this particular machine,.... The 400EX..


Obviously, you and I DO have some similarities,... in that we are both opinionated on the subject.
I think where we greatly differ is context, and research.

You really do need to go back and re-read my original post to understand the intent and context of my suggestions to the person asking the questions.

Also do some seaching on the subjects of compression increases, head studs, riding styles, rev boxes, oil coolers, intended useages of each rider, spal fans, airflow, bore sizes, compression ratios, Cost vs.Gains, and overall performance inhancements of the 400EX, with what does and DOES NOT work well.

All of these subjects have been extensiely covered many times over, by people much more experienced and knowledgeable than myself, who have tried and proved, or disproved the claims and benefits of everything that has been mentioned or imagined.

Research is Knowledge, Knowledge is Power, Experience is Priceless.

I'll have my towrope and a bottle of cold water, ready for you, if you are thirsty, and need a lift back to camp.
I'm always willing to lend a hand to someone in need.

[2001400exrida]

haha i can do without the tow rope my quads run great.

does the rev box change the timing curve too? i hear it not only allows it to rev higher but it gives it more pop too.

[Wheelie]

I have had both a rev box and a +6 key and the +4 I've been running for over a year.


The key offers much better gains, is less than 1/2 the price, and doesn't sacrifice reliability when set up correctly. I ran a rev box for a couple months, re-installed the stocker and sold the rev box.

[sheweezy]

'hey wheelie pm sent