Sparks Key Advance?

[sprayedgt]

I just installed the Sparks Key Advance on my '08 400ex. Just wondering before I take it out and ride it how do I know if the flywheel bolt it tightened properly? I tried to put a torque wrench on it but all I was doing was turning the motor over. And yes it was in gear, the tires were trying to move backwards. I zipped it on with the impact gun and put it all back together and she fired right up. I'm just a little concerned that the flywheel bolt isn't tight enough. Is there anyway to tell without taking the case back off?

[bearair]

Not really. You should have used a counterhold on the two flat sections of the flywheel to keep it from turning, and then torqued the center bolt. I would never recommend using an impact gun to tighten anything on a crank, but there are several people that have done it and their motors seems to run fine.

You'll like the key. Nice increase in throttle response for the money.

[sprayedgt]

I really wouldn't recommend it either but I had no other way to do it. I have a few years building Mustang engines for drag racing and this is all new to me. But I took it out and rode it a little and WOW!! It pulled the wheels off the ground rolling into the throttle in 2nd with out any problems and I weigh 240lbs. So far i'm VERY impressed:D I'll probably tear it apart tomorrow and double check the bolt just to make sure.

Originally posted by sprayedgt
I really wouldn't recommend it either but I had no other way to do it. I have a few years building Mustang engines for drag racing and this is all new to me. But I took it out and rode it a little and WOW!! It pulled the wheels off the ground rolling into the throttle in 2nd with out any problems and I weigh 240lbs. So far i'm VERY impressed:D I'll probably tear it apart tomorrow and double check the bolt just to make sure.

just the ket did that or did you add other mods too?

[sprayedgt]

Just the key and a UNI filter. I ordered a full Yoshimura RS3 Carbon Fiber exhaust from Leesons, but they sent me just the slip-on. I'll have the exhaust and jet kit on this week.

[tri5ron]

where did you purchase the key, and how much was it?

[sprayedgt]

I ordered it directly from Curtis Sparks. It was $28 shipped. You also have to get a left side case gasket from the Honda dealer and that was $16. So far it was the best money I've spent. I spent $450 for a full Yoshimura RS3 Carbon Fiber exhaust and I doubt I'll get as much of a gain out of it as I have with the key advance. But it'll sound sweet:cool:

[sprayedgt]

Originally posted by bearair
You should have used a counterhold on the two flat sections of the flywheel to keep it from turning, and then torqued the center bolt. [/B]

I took it apart this morning and did just that. I was thinking about it last night that I wasn't quite sure if I turned the flywheel all the way to the left before I tightened it. That would've meant the timing was somewhere between stock and +6 adv. I made sure I held it all the way to the left and torqued the center bolt down to 94 ft lbs. It's amazing what a simple $20 part can do for this thing:)

[Gatekeeper]

Just ordered mine from sparks and picked up my gasket. Cant wait to try this. Thanks for the flywheel tips!

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
Just ordered mine from sparks and picked up my gasket. Cant wait to try this. Thanks for the flywheel tips!

Ditto...
ordered mine this morning 90 seconds after they opened up for business. They said I'll probably have it tommorow!!!

Man !, I cant wait to go ride it again.

I've only had my quad out one time since I bought it, and the only mods it had then was the pipe, jets, handel bars, twist throttle.

(The A.A.D.S. disease is in FULL RAMPAGE mode),
how do the lyrics of that song go ???

" I'm not Crazy, ... I'm just a little UN-WELL"
:huh :D :cool:

I just called Curtis Sparks and I wanted to clarify this with everyone... YOU CAN run the key with 11:1 or 10:1 pistons. High compression is considered to be 12.5:1. So you can get even more so of a gain with a higher compression piston.

[sprayedgt]

If you read the tech article about this, it says to take all the bolts off the cover and the starter. You don't need to take the top 2 off the starter cover since they attach only the cover to the housing and not the engine itself. Also most of the bolts from the cover are different lengths. What I did was make a template out of cardboard and traced the gasket how it would sit on the engine. I made a hole in the cardboard where each bolt would go, and as I took each bolt out I put it in it's corresponding hole in the cardboard. Then when you reassemble you know exactly where each bolt goes. For the center flywheel bolt, I used a 12" adjustable wrench on the flat sides of the flywheel and braced it on the foot peg so when I torqued the center bolt the engine wouldn't turn. But other than that it's pretty easy. You'll love the results!!

what is the size socket you need for the flywheel bolt or puller? I have a 1/4" impact wrench will that do or do I need a 1/2"?

[bearair]

Originally posted by FoxHondaRider
what is the size socket you need for the flywheel bolt or puller? I have a 1/4" impact wrench will that do or do I need a 1/2"?

You will probably need a 1/2" or a really strong 3/8". I'm pretty sure that I used a 30mm. Pretty good size bolt.

can anyone see or verify this. Just making sure i have the tools needed before i buy this.

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by FoxHondaRider
can anyone see or verify this. Just making sure i have the tools needed before i buy this.

FoxHR,
Once I get mine in, I'll be happy to do a pictorial on the install job.

I'm not sure,, but I think you meant to ask about a 3/8" vs. 1/2" on the impact question.
not sure I've ever seen a 1/4" impact gun.

either way, I'm sure a 3/8" drive impact will be fine for removal. if not, then a breaker bar and socket should do the trick for removal.

The Important Part, is that you do not use ANY impact gun for the Install.
Use a proper Torque wrench only, when doing the Install.

It may take me a few days after I recieve my key,...
but I'll do a nice pic's spread, when I do the job on my bike.

alright thanks. I'm calling some friends to see if I can get a hold of an air compressor and impact wrench incase my electric 1/4" drive wont work.

[bcg717]

Here you go foxhondarider http://www.atvriders.com/articles/timingkey400ex.html

Originally posted by bcg717
Here you go foxhondarider http://www.atvriders.com/articles/timingkey400ex.html

thanks, i know about that thread but i wished they included the sizes of sockets needed and maybe a type of impact wrench. Hopefully my 1/4" drive electric will have the power to shock that bolt off without tuning the motor over

[bcg717]

I cant remember so dont quote me but i think the main socket for the flywheel was a 17mm. Good luck, I just did mine last week and love it so far.

[X400EX]

Glad to see that it would work with 11:1...

One thing before i put it in, how will I do to adjust to valve clearance without a good T mark?

[Mercedes]

To adjust the valves just pull out the spark plug and you could use a screw driver, or what ever you wish, to put into the hole and see if the piston is up or down.

[sprayedgt]

The socket needed for the flywheel puller is a 30mm and the flywheel bolt is 17mm.

[imc188222]

not to stir the pot or anything but the instructions that came with the key said that using an impact gun is a good way to be sure that the bolt is tight. :)

[bearair]

Originally posted by imc188222
not to stir the pot or anything but the instructions that came with the key said that using an impact gun is a good way to be sure that the bolt is tight. :)

Yeah, they do. I was taught that using an impact gun on a bike crank was a bad idea as the two sides of the crank are pressed onto the main journal. Using an impact on one end of the crank can twist it. You're not even supposed to use an impact gun to tighten pulley bolts on a car engine. People do it all the time, but the manufacturers say not to.

anyone know where i can find the torque specs for all the bolts?

[hornetgod13]

Originally posted by FoxHondaRider
anyone know where i can find the torque specs for all the bolts?

Yes, a maintenance manual. You do have one, right?

oh yeah I have the Clymer 400ex one in the garage. Thanks for reminding me

[04-honda-400ex]

I have a question on this 6* key.
"With the key in place, put the flywheel back on. You will see a spot in the flywheel for the key to line up with. Get the flywheel all the way on and spin it to the left until it comes to a stop. Make sure you are spinning the flywheel and not cranking the whole engine over"
I don't understand this. All I did was take the old key out and install the new key and bolt flywheel back on. Did I do it wrong

[jesseweaver]

this seems like a good idea, i'm thinking about doing it, but it says not to do it on modified engines. i dont know to what extent it meants though, (like just not on 440s or not on any modded engine) i have a 11:1 wiseco 416cc with stage 2 hotcams, WB pipe, k&N filter and some other stuff, so i guess it wouldn't be a good idea for me, but is there any type of oil cooler or anything i can get to be able to put this on then?

[04-honda-400ex]

Originally posted by jesseweaver
this seems like a good idea, i'm thinking about doing it, but it says not to do it on modified engines. i dont know to what extent it meants though, (like just not on 440s or not on any modded engine) i have a 11:1 wiseco 416cc with stage 2 hotcams, WB pipe, k&N filter and some other stuff, so i guess it wouldn't be a good idea for me, but is there any type of oil cooler or anything i can get to be able to put this on then?

You can run the 6* key. This only applys to engines with 12.5:1 or higher compression pistons.

dont forget he has a bore to. That alone causes more heat. I wouldnt do it on a motor that has 11:1 piston and its bored out.

[tri5ron]

A.A.D.S. strikes again...

I recieved my advance key yesterday,
(only 2-1/2 days from order to delivery),
and just finished installing it. It couldn't have been eaiser.

It is now 8:30 pm, and cant take it for a lap down the driveway. (so far my neighbors still like me).
I warmed the bike up to about 150 degrees, gave the throttle a couple of snaps, and all I can say is...

WOW!, HOLY COW!, What a HUGE DIFFERENCE!
I am VERY impressed with the improved throttle responce.

I cant wait to take a few laps,... Tommorow is going to be a very good day!

Thanks to all who recommended this mod.

BTW - I took many pics of the install, and did it without draining the oil, or using a impact through out the entire disassembly or re-assembly.
I'll try to get all the pics downloaded, and posted, on how to do this mod with only common hand tools, in the next few days, for anyone who may be interested.

Tommorow, the block-off plate and EZ pull clutch lever/perch goes on...

[my88r]

Originally posted by tri5ron
A.A.D.S. strikes again...

I recieved my advance key yesterday,
(only 2-1/2 days from order to delivery),
and just finished installing it. It couldn't have been eaiser.

It is now 8:30 pm, and cant take it for a lap down the driveway. (so far my neighbors still like me).
I warmed the bike up to about 150 degrees, gave the throttle a couple of snaps, and all I can say is...

WOW!, HOLY COW!, What a HUGE DIFFERENCE!
I am VERY impressed with the improved throttle responce.

I cant wait to take a few laps,... Tommorow is going to be a very good day!

Thanks to all who recommended this mod.

BTW - I took many pics of the install, and did it without draining the oil, or using a impact through out the entire disassembly or re-assembly.
I'll try to get all the pics downloaded, and posted, on how to do this mod with only common hand tools, in the next few days, for anyone who may be interested.

Tommorow, the block-off plate and EZ pull clutch lever/perch goes on...

get that stuff done then your set. don't need anymore just ride it.lol:D

[tri5ron]

Quote by my88r :
"get that stuff done then your set. don't need anymore"...

LOL,
You Sir,
apparently underestimate the full strength, total consumation, and terminal velocity, of this Disease...

ROTFLMAO !!!

[mcwilly]

Originally posted by tri5ron
A.A.D.S. strikes again...

I recieved my advance key yesterday,
(only 2-1/2 days from order to delivery),
and just finished installing it. It couldn't have been eaiser.

It is now 8:30 pm, and cant take it for a lap down the driveway. (so far my neighbors still like me).
I warmed the bike up to about 150 degrees, gave the throttle a couple of snaps, and all I can say is...

WOW!, HOLY COW!, What a HUGE DIFFERENCE!
I am VERY impressed with the improved throttle responce.

I cant wait to take a few laps,... Tommorow is going to be a very good day!

Thanks to all who recommended this mod.

BTW - I took many pics of the install, and did it without draining the oil, or using a impact through out the entire disassembly or re-assembly.
I'll try to get all the pics downloaded, and posted, on how to do this mod with only common hand tools, in the next few days, for anyone who may be interested.

Tommorow, the block-off plate and EZ pull clutch lever/perch goes on...

I hate you. :D
I just placed my order. (now get your pics up!)
I think I need to join a support group. Hornetgod can be our leader.

[04-honda-400ex]

Originally posted by 04-honda-400ex
I have a question on this 6* key.
"With the key in place, put the flywheel back on. You will see a spot in the flywheel for the key to line up with. Get the flywheel all the way on and spin it to the left until it comes to a stop. Make sure you are spinning the flywheel and not cranking the whole engine over"
I don't understand this. All I did was take the old key out and install the new key and bolt flywheel back on. Did I do it wrong

Can anyone on here help me out with my question?

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by 04-honda-400ex
Can anyone on here help me out with my question?

Sure no problem,
The purpose for making sure you get it turned to the left is to get the flywheel's key slot to rest against the notch in the sparks key.
In other words, by installing the Sparks key, and turning the flywheel to the left, you have basically "re-clocked" the flywheel 6 degrees forward, in relation to the crankshaft, from its original stock position.

that is why it is very important to install the key with the red tip facing away from the engine. This makes the notch in the top of the key on the aft side of the key, which in turn allows for the flywheel to be 6 degrees advanced from stock.

basically if you either installed the key backwards, OR do not turn it to the left, ...
The worst thing that can result is that it will be in the stock position, and therefore no advanced timing.

So at WORST, you spent a hour and 16 bucks on a gasket that you may need to re-do.

I'll give you a little old hotrodders tip that MAY save you from having to buy a new gasket again.
(this can ONLY work if you did not use a rtv/silicone type sealer when you installed your gasket last time).
After you remove all of the side case bolts, spray some wd-40 on the gasket all the way around it, and let it sit for a hour or more.

Then using a soft deadblow type malet, tap on the side case just enough to get it to come loose a little bit. Do Not try to remove the side case from the engine yet.

Spray more wd-40, or other penetrating oil, and let it sit again. the longer, the better.
(what you are trying to do, is to get the penetrating oil to soak into the gasket.

then when you just cant wait any longer try moving the side case as little as possible to allow for a plastic scraper, plastic razor blade, or similar scraper, and try to get the gasket to come loose from the engine side.

keep in mind that this method works about 30 to 40 percent of the time, so be ready to buy another gasket if it dosent work for you.

I hope this helps, and I hope I answered your question.

Ron

[mcwilly]

Anybody here running the Sparks key w/ the AMR monster coil? I plan on getting that little gem next.

[04-honda-400ex]

Originally posted by tri5ron
Sure no problem,
The purpose for making sure you get it turned to the left is to get the flywheel's key slot to rest against the notch in the sparks key.
In other words, by installing the Sparks key, and turning the flywheel to the left, you have basically "re-clocked" the flywheel 6 degrees forward, in relation to the crankshaft, from its original stock position.

that is why it is very important to install the key with the red tip facing away from the engine. This makes the notch in the top of the key on the aft side of the key, which in turn allows for the flywheel to be 6 degrees advanced from stock.

basically if you either installed the key backwards, OR do not turn it to the left, ...
The worst thing that can result is that it will be in the stock position, and therefore no advanced timing.

So at WORST, you spent a hour and 16 bucks on a gasket that you may need to re-do.

I'll give you a little old hotrodders tip that MAY save you from having to buy a new gasket again.
(this can ONLY work if you did not use a rtv/silicone type sealer when you installed your gasket last time).
After you remove all of the side case bolts, spray some wd-40 on the gasket all the way around it, and let it sit for a hour or more.

Then using a soft deadblow type malet, tap on the side case just enough to get it to come loose a little bit. Do Not try to remove the side case from the engine yet.

Spray more wd-40, or other penetrating oil, and let it sit again. the longer, the better.
(what you are trying to do, is to get the penetrating oil to soak into the gasket.

then when you just cant wait any longer try moving the side case as little as possible to allow for a plastic scraper, plastic razor blade, or similar scraper, and try to get the gasket to come loose from the engine side.

keep in mind that this method works about 30 to 40 percent of the time, so be ready to buy another gasket if it dosent work for you.

I hope this helps, and I hope I answered your question.

Ron

Call me a retard But, I just don't understand how you can turn the flywheel to the left to re-clock the engine timing. I would think once the flywheel is on with the sparks key installed and the red end of the key faceing away from the engine, that would be that. I'm sorry but I just dont understand this hole turning to the left thing.

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by 04-honda-400ex
Call me a retard But, I just don't understand how you can turn the flywheel to the left to re-clock the engine timing. I would think once the flywheel is on with the sparks key installed and the red end of the key faceing away from the engine, that would be that. I'm sorry but I just dont understand this hole turning to the left thing.

O.K., first things first,...

no, I wont call you a retard,...
Due to that would be using the word in a derogatory manner, and that would be degrading, and belittling to my own son who is mentally retarded.

You need to be a little more careful in your choice of words and phrases when asking for advice.
You never know who's toes you may be stepping on, and it just may well be the person you are seeking help from.

Now that we've got that straight, I'll be happy to explain the "turning to the left" issue.

You are only turning the flywheel to the left a VERY LITTLE bit.
we are talking approx. .040 to the left from original position.
This is so that the flywheel is touching the back side of the Sparks key, (where the little notch is).
That is all.
dont think that it is very much,... it's not.

In other words, there is now going to be a small gap between the forward side of the Sparks key, and the inside forward surface of your flywheel.

[04-honda-400ex]

Originally posted by tri5ron
O.K., first things first,...

no, I wont call you a retard,...
Due to that would be using the word in a derogatory manner, and that would be degrading, and belittling to my own son who is mentally retarded.

You need to be a little more careful in your choice of words and phrases when asking for advice.
You never know who's toes you may be stepping on, and it just may well be the person you are seeking help from.

Now that we've got that straight, I'll be happy to explain the "turning to the left" issue.

You are only turning the flywheel to the left a VERY LITTLE bit.
we are talking approx. .040 to the left from original position.
This is so that the flywheel is touching the back side of the Sparks key, (where the little notch is).
That is all.
dont think that it is very much,... it's not.

In other words, there is now going to be a small gap between the forward side of the Sparks key, and the inside forward surface of your flywheel.

First sorry abt the tard thing. Ok I was think I had to turn the flywheel like half a turn or something. I'm all good sounds like. The flywheel will only fit one way right without being forest on?

Thanks

[DementeD]

Originally posted by tri5ron
A.A.D.S. strikes again...

I recieved my advance key yesterday,
(only 2-1/2 days from order to delivery),
and just finished installing it. It couldn't have been eaiser.

It is now 8:30 pm, and cant take it for a lap down the driveway. (so far my neighbors still like me).
I warmed the bike up to about 150 degrees, gave the throttle a couple of snaps, and all I can say is...

WOW!, HOLY COW!, What a HUGE DIFFERENCE!
I am VERY impressed with the improved throttle responce.

I cant wait to take a few laps,... Tommorow is going to be a very good day!

Thanks to all who recommended this mod.

BTW - I took many pics of the install, and did it without draining the oil, or using a impact through out the entire disassembly or re-assembly.
I'll try to get all the pics downloaded, and posted, on how to do this mod with only common hand tools, in the next few days, for anyone who may be interested.

Tommorow, the block-off plate and EZ pull clutch lever/perch goes on...

can u hurry up with the review...my bike is in pieces thinking it was soooooo easy with hand tools and to me it seems quite impossible to do without an impact gun...

not to mention this is a ridiculous install..im pretty sure im screwed on this thing running right when im done..never knew u had to remove those two small bolts behind the case of the starter and i doubt they will go back together easily..

so plz post ur pictures and how to fast before this thing goes in the lake...

[tri5ron]

04-Honda-400ex, apology accepted. Thank you.

Demented,
PM sent...

[DementeD]

i appreciate the fast response..pm'd back

sry if i came off in a bad manner..im very aggrivated and mad right now.. sry sry
im sure everyone knows how frustrating somethings can be..and i promise i have the worst luck with things :D

[my88r]

Originally posted by DementeD
i have the worst luck with things :D

I'm sure we can all relate to that:grr:

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by my88r
I'm sure we can all relate to that:grr:

LOL!
"Mr. Murphy" has a tendency to ride Shotgun with me on a daily basis!:eek2: :p :D


DementeD,
PM sent back to you.
Im tryin' to make this easy for ya pal ...
but I've only got about an hour here before I gotta go do my "Daddy Duties".

Send me your phone number, and I will call you,....
we can get through this,....
together ......
now breath, breath, breath,....
your doin' good, stick with me here.....

now what are you doin' with that rope??
why are you tossing it over one of the roof rafters ???...

No, No, NOOO! dont put that around your neck!!!Are you NUTZ????? What are you thinkin' ??
(just playing with ya here...)

[DementeD]

Im demented..not suicidal..the bike will die before me hahaha
i pm'd ya back..
incase u havent read i gave up for the night..
i have ..bf duties..haha
gotta keep the girl happy even when im pissed..is that right? haha
anyway tomorrow will work if ur not to busy?

im dreading puttin it back together more then anything else really..
and the fact i need another gasket cuz i took something apart that i believe was not needed BUT i didnt know that in the beginning..

i really think that article about installin the key should be removed for very poor instructions..
i mean..really all it says is..unscrew the side cover install key..umm duh??..how do u get there..what kind of troubles will i run into..do i need to take this off and ruin that gasket too..oh no u dont..thanks for the heads up..


oh well..tomorrow ill try to finished up the jist of it...but ill have to go order another gasket at the very least before i get to feel the difference..given it runs correctly after install :P

[imc188222]

A little clarification here. The reason you have to turn the flywheel to the left is because the key will not align it correctly for you. The key is not stepped, it is just a regular woodruff key with about .040" machined off the side at the top. The thickness on that part of it is now less than the slot that it will occupy allowing the flywheel to be clocked 6 degrees. Being machined the way it is rather than stepped to one side makes it possible to have from 0 to 6 degrees of advance depending on how improperly it is installed. In short, if you don't install it correctly you will see no performance gain.

[bearair]

Originally posted by imc188222
A little clarification here. The reason you have to turn the flywheel to the left is because the key will not align it correctly for you. The key is not stepped, it is just a regular woodruff key with about .040" machined off the side at the top. The thickness on that part of it is now less than the slot that it will occupy allowing the flywheel to be clocked 6 degrees. Being machined the way it is rather than stepped to one side makes it possible to have from 0 to 6 degrees of advance depending on how improperly it is installed. In short, if you don't install it correctly you will see no performance gain.

AH HAH! That's the reason for the instruction. I was thinking that was a possibility. The key I received wasn't machined. It was cast offset so it fit snugly in the flywheel. Must be an updated part. I ordered it directly from sparks.

When looking at the key I received, it looked kind of like a key that is partially sheared would. It was the same thickness dimension, but was offset for the portion that sticks above the level of the crank.

[imc188222]

Originally posted by bearair
AH HAH! That's the reason for the instruction. I was thinking that was a possibility. The key I received wasn't machined. It was cast offset so it fit snugly in the flywheel. Must be an updated part. I ordered it directly from sparks.

When looking at the key I received, it looked kind of like a key that is partially sheared would. It was the same thickness dimension, but was offset for the portion that sticks above the level of the crank.


This was the case with the key I got directly from sparks a couple weeks ago. I was kind of disappointed as I was expecting a cast offset key. Seemed corny to get a $0.25 woodruff key that had some material machined off of it. I could do that with a micrometer, vise, and file! Works fine, just not exactly what I was expecting.

[Gatekeeper]

just got mine directly from sparks. Plain woodruff key, machined off one side not cast offset. I thought I saw a pic on here somewhere of it being a stepped offset i.e. not a straight key with some material removed....

[DementeD]

i wonder...if u can remove more and maybe pull 8 to 10 degrees timing?? ohhh ahhh...
might be nice for stock motors :D

Originally posted by DementeD
i wonder...if u can remove more and maybe pull 8 to 10 degrees timing?? ohhh ahhh...
might be nice for stock motors :D

remember if you go to much your motor wont be benefitting it might be hurting. Advance it too far and the explosion will occur before or right as it hits TDC and your crank will have so much stress.

[Gatekeeper]

Originally posted by FoxHondaRider
remember if you go to much your motor wont be benefitting it might be hurting. Advance it too far and the explosion will occur before or right as it hits TDC and your crank will have so much stress.
I thought you were advancing it for combustion Before Top Dead center. Explosion at top dead center would be 0 degrees.
After TDC would be retarding timing....Right?

[DementeD]

definitely true..but they could have put it at 6 degrees as a safety point and maybe 8 degrees is still better? and maybe 10 is to far?

[tri5ron]

Re: to the last 4 or 5 replies,...
now your catching on.

I am already in negotiations with a machine shop owner, friend of mine, to mfg a "stepped/offset key" ,

to eliminate the whole "turning to the left" issue,
as well as eliminating all the confusion for the install process.

I'll let you know as the negotion's progress.
be patient...., these things take time.

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
I thought you were advancing it for combustion Before Top Dead center. Explosion at top dead center would be 0 degrees.
After TDC would be retarding timing....Right?

Right heres what happens you advance the timing which makes the spark go off sooner and flame front or explosion to start occuring earlier. Since the combustion process takes time advancing the timing makes the explosion occur closer to TDC (Top dead center) which gives you more power for the down stroke. In stock form the spark occurs too soon and the explosion occurs as the piston is already on its way down losing compression and power. So the spark and combustion process starting earlier corrects that so the explosion has just passed TDC giving you the most power.

[Gatekeeper]

Originally posted by FoxHondaRider
Right heres what happens you advance the timing which makes the spark go off sooner and flame front or explosion to start occuring earlier. Since the combustion process takes time advancing the timing makes the explosion occur closer to TDC (Top dead center) which gives you more power for the down stroke. In stock form the spark occurs too soon and the explosion occurs as the piston is already on its way down losing compression and power. So the spark and combustion process starting earlier corrects that so the explosion has just passed TDC giving you the most power.
I think you are a just a little off
If the stock timing is 0 TDC then it would be ("X" is the spark)
BFTC________TDC________ ATDC
8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 X 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9----->

Advancing the timing 6 degrees would be
BFTC________TDC________ ATDC
8 7 X 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9----->

So yes it is combusting sooner on the combustion stroke, but the spark has moved 6 degrees away (farther) from TDC toward the combustion stroke

Retarding the timing also moves the spark away from TDC but toward the power stroke
Retarding the timing 6 degrees would be
BFTC________TDC________ ATDC
8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 X 7 8 9----->

I only have some auto experience, but thisis how I understand advance/retard timing.Am I right?

[bearair]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
I think you are a just a little off
If the stock timing is 0 TDC then it would be ("X" is the spark)
BFTC________TDC________ ATDC
8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 X 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9----->

Advancing the timing 6 degrees would be
BFTC________TDC________ ATDC
8 7 X 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9----->

So yes it is combusting sooner on the combustion stroke, but the spark has moved 6 degrees away (farther) from TDC toward the combustion stroke

Retarding the timing also moves the spark away from TDC but toward the power stroke
Retarding the timing 6 degrees would be
BFTC________TDC________ ATDC
8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 X 7 8 9----->

I only have some auto experience, but thisis how I understand advance/retard timing.Am I right?

I think this was discussed in one of the timing key threads, but here's the way combustion works.

For a given amount of compression ratio, there is a given amount of cylinder pressure. It's based on cylinder volume. If your compression ratio is 9:1, then you will get a certain amount of pressure built up at TDC. The pressure will be higher in a higher compression motor.

The spark comes during the compression stroke. The idea is that the fuel air mixture ignites and the flame front starts to propogate in such a way that peak cylinder pressure is reached shortly after TDC so that the pressure has the longest period of time (dwell) to push down on the piston.

In a lower compression engine, bumping the timing up a few degrees from stock is trying to compensate for the lower cylinder pressure. Air/fuel mixture that is compressed to a lower degree (9:1 versus 12:1 for example) has a slower flame front propogation rate. Bumping the timing a few degrees earlier than stock allows for the maximum amount of expansion given the lower compression. This is a bootstrap compensation for the compression. Higher compression reduces the need for as much advance because the flame front travels faster due to the higher cylinder pressure during the compression stroke.

Stock engines are timed conservatively. This is mainly to keep things cooler which makes for a long running engine that's hard to kill. Having the cylinder pressure last longer will make more power. This creates more heat. The fuel air mixture is the same in both stock timed and advanced timed engines so why the heat?

If you keep the cylinder pressure higher for longer then you are harnessing more of the heat energy from the air fuel mixture. Stock timed engines don't get the maximum power from the mixture. Instead the combustion slows down due to the increase in cylinder volume (piston moving down) faster than the flame front towards the end of the power stroke. The heat created is less, and more unburned stuff gets out during the exhaust stroke. Higher compression engines are actually cleaner for that reason, but more prone to detonation.

On a stock block engine the heat created probably won't cause an issue with the stock cooling system. There's enough extra capacity to allow for the increase in power of a horse or two. Actually there's probably enough to allow for a lot more than that. These bikes are engineered to be pretty darned durable. Hope that helps!

[tri5ron]

Bearair,
Well said, and clearly stated.

[DementeD]

ok got a hold of an impact gun today..got the 17mm off...now to screw in the 30mm flywheel puller...how does that work..i dont have a 30mm socket so im tryin to use vice grips which grip it well..but im scared of damaging anything..

any advice etc?? thx

[tri5ron]

DementedD,
do you have a large cresent wrench to hold the flywheel still?

<a href="http://s111.photobucket.com/albums/n148/tri5ron/Sparks%20advance%20key%20installation/?action=view&current=IMG_8284.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n148/tri5ron/Sparks%20advance%20key%20installation/IMG_8284.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

I doubt that you will be able to get the necessary leverage out of a pair of vise-grips, to break it loose. but maybe you can...

you wont damage anything but the 30mm bolt, but that's ok...

[400ex28]

Originally posted by DementeD
ok got a hold of an impact gun today..got the 17mm off...now to screw in the 30mm flywheel puller...how does that work..i dont have a 30mm socket so im tryin to use vice grips which grip it well..but im scared of damaging anything..

any advice etc?? thx

Go out and get a 30mm socket.

[DementeD]

Originally posted by 400ex28
Go out and get a 30mm soctket.
thats what i ended up doing..
this cheap mod turned into about 75 bucks altogether..
30 key
17 30mm socket
16 gasket
and there another gasket i need to replace
i hope its worth it..
and what a headache
i guess i just need more tools overall
not the easiest install but its almost done

im also replacing my header gaskets from when i grinded down the welds..a fun filled weekend of work..no play :)


also i want to note that..i think mine was hard because of the age..things didnt want to pry apart very easily..
like Tri ur starter came off from the outside..i had to take mine all the way apart because it didnt want to come off..i wish my went as easy as urs looks from that pic.. :D

Originally posted by DementeD
thats what i ended up doing..
this cheap mod turned into about 75 bucks altogether..
30 key
17 30mm socket
16 gasket
and there another gasket i need to replace
i hope its worth it..
and what a headache
i guess i just need more tools overall
not the easiest install but its almost done

im also replacing my header gaskets from when i grinded down the welds..a fun filled weekend of work..no play :)


also i want to note that..i think mine was hard because of the age..things didnt want to pry apart very easily..
like Tri ur starter came off from the outside..i had to take mine all the way apart because it didnt want to come off..i wish my went as easy as urs looks from that pic.. :D

yeah you go to do a job and find fauly elsewhere thats how i am most of the time. I go to do something simple and see something that either should be eplaced or is going to fail in the future so I end up replacing it. Like today I was just going to do a valve check/adjustment, and change the oil. I ended up stripping my quad besides the motor, shocks, swing arm, a-arms, carb, and wiring and cleaning off everything lol.

[Gatekeeper]

Was about to start install this afternoon after work, glad i looked at case before starting. got the wrong gasket for the crank cover from the honda shop. Happy i didn't start tearing apart, at least i can still go ridin tommorow.
Does anyone have the correct PN for the crank case cover?

[tri5ron]

here ya go...

<a href="http://s111.photobucket.com/albums/n148/tri5ron/Sparks%20advance%20key%20installation/?action=view&current=IMG_8297.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n148/tri5ron/Sparks%20advance%20key%20installation/IMG_8297.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[Gatekeeper]

Thanks!

[mcwilly]

I should be receiving my key in the mail this afternoon. I WAS looking forward to installing it as it seemed fairly easy. lol, not so much anymore. Mr. Murphy and his ****** law always seem to work w/ me on a project. We'll see.
My case gasket will be here tomorrow (dealer had to order it)....I'm hoping I can get the starter off without damaging the gasket....and I hope the dealer has one in stock after I screw it up. :D

[Gatekeeper]

Honda shop didn't have the gasket for the left case cover.
now i need to find a website with fast shipping:)
This may be a dumb question, but what would be the problem with using RTV silicone instead of the paper gasket?

[tri5ron]

it's not a normally stocked gasket.
I had called 6 dealers before I found mine, and had to drive 28 miles, one way, to get it.
cost me an extra $15 in fuel, to buy my $16 gasket!

[imc188222]

Just pull the case off, clean the oil off the gasket and surfaces, put a small amount of rtv all the way around the case with your finger and bolt it back on.

[sprayedgt]

[i]Originally posted by mcwilly
I'm hoping I can get the starter off without damaging the gasket....and I hope the dealer has one in stock after I screw it up. :D [/B]

You don't need to take all the bolts out of the starter, just the bottom 2. They're the only ones that hold the starter to the block. The top 2 only hold the cover to the starter so if you just take out the bottom 2 you won't damage the gasket.