DS450X accident pic's-frame bent

[african rider]

hey guy's

some two stupid guy's crash there quad's front wheel to front wheel, and that what happend....:eek2:


the pic's are from an israeli quad site (best in israel):D www.nazzima.com

[african rider]

pic..

[african rider]

pic3

[african rider]

pic4

[brink400]

That is some carnage right there. I just hope that people dont interpret this as the can ams have a weak frame, cause if any quad took a hit like that it would be trashed too.

[african rider]

your right, but from what i understand he was going fast (5th gear..) and took most of the impact.

for the predator didn't happend nothing....thats odd

:confused:

[Hitman440]

GO Polaris

[wzito001]

Got to hurt your feelings when $8500 looks like that!

[BenIL]

:grr: :mad:

8500$ in U.S.A...
In Israel it's like 21,000$

[african rider]

Originally posted by wzito001
Got to hurt your feelings when $8500 looks like that!

like my friend sayd, with price like $21,000 you can be sure it hurt:devil:

[RosquistRacer39]

Yea that isn't going to be a cheap fix.

[Hitman440]

He could get good money out of all that scrap aluminum. I am not sure he will get 21K worth.

[wzito001]

$21,000? Are you kidding me? I think I would move to the US!:eek2:

[T-BONE#29]

im so glad i dont have one of these POS's

[CannondaleRider]

Originally posted by T-BONE#29
im so glad i dont have one of these POS's

I'm so glad you don't have one either...I think we all are.

Because, your the type that would go out, and break the thing. Break it in a way that any new quad would break in the same situation, then bad-mouth Can-Am because they built a "POS" :rolleyes:

[wzito001]

The Can Am is no POS. That is a pretty ignorant statement. I don't care what quad you have, if you hit them head on in fifth gear, ofcourse it will look like that. Ofcourse, you know that.

BZ

[bwamos]

Agree. No ATV out there is designed to take a 5th gear head on collision w/o any damage. Hell no motorized vehicle made is.

If both vehicles were going just 40-50mph that's an 80-100mph impact.

This is a similar impact with a heavy UTE.

[YannGumbo]

OUCH big time



Originally posted by bwamos
Agree. No ATV out there is designed to take a 5th gear head on collision w/o any damage. Hell no motorized vehicle made is.

If boht vehicles were going just 40-50mph that's an 80-100mph impact.

This is a similar impact with a heavy UTE.

[ds450]

There is no quad out there camparable to the Can am right now. Ive ridden hondas, yamaha junks, and suzukis and they dont even come close.

[#17YFZRACER]

yamaha junks

WOW, and you want to talk about ignorant statements...found another one.:huh

[atvrider23054]

Originally posted by ds450
There is no quad out there camparable to the Can am right now. Ive ridden hondas, yamaha junks, and suzukis and they dont even come close.

that is the stupidist thing ive ever heard i can tell u all of those r better than the ds in many different ways expessially the yamaha and i dont see the pred with a bent frame they were both 5th gear and they both hit each other and not to mention the ds thread has one of the most threads complaining about there broken quad and its not even close as old as any other quad thread

[#17YFZRACER]

thank you

[CannondaleRider]

Originally posted by atvrider23054
that is the stupidist thing ive ever heard i can tell u all of those r better than the ds in many different ways expessially the yamaha and i dont see the pred with a bent frame they were both 5th gear and they both hit each other and not to mention the ds thread has one of the most threads complaining about there broken quad and its not even close as old as any other quad thread

Some punctuation, and otherwise proper grammar, would be nice. Try it sometime.

"i don't see the pred with a bent frame...." Ever think that the forces could have been different? Just a small amount of direction change for the Can-Am rider could have put the forces at an angle which bent the frame like that. But, still an impact point that doesn't force the Predator frame to the side, but straight on instead. I've seen a Cannondale and a Yamaha hit head on, and both get bent frames like that. I've seen a Honda and a Suzuki hit head on, and have this exact same demise. I've seen a bent frame on a Suzuki, from JUST a wreck, not even a 5th gear pinned, head-on collision.

It all comes down to forces. The strength of forces, the direction. That energy has to go somewhere...no matter what quad you are riding, if struck right, a frame WILL bend. Something will bend...it just happened to be the front frame portion on this Can-Am.

[#17YFZRACER]

im not saying that the ds is a bad bike, im just saying that my YFZ is just as good. and yes all frames bend:ermm:

[ThePhantomRider]

You all know by now what a proponent I am of the DS, and the fact that the frame bent in that type of accident is not only acceptable, but expected.

I think the perception is that some people believe that the DS needs to be indestructible in order to validate the use of aluminum and the way it is assembled.

Their goals were simply this, make a frame that is lighter, easier to assemble, a bit stronger than the steel frames in most situations and require less modification to run in a pro class setting. They accomplished this in spades, but once the public gets them into their hands, you'll see, just like every quad, those that take those real world hits from every angle and every possible situation and some will come out fine, others will take the hit....

My thing is, if you take a shot like the one pictured, you should thank god that the atv still has some give because all the impact that it deflected could have easily been taken 100% by the rider.

It sucks to have to fix stuff, but that is life.

Finally YFZRacer, you are right, even with all the advancements made to the segment, the YFZ is still very much in the mix, the differences in all the 450's is very minimal, and will shrink to the point of their MX cousins very soon where they are all so close it's only a matter of personal preference.

TPR

[#17YFZRACER]

you are right. the more the companies compete against each other, their products are going to be better for us. brand loyalty is the stupidest thing ive ever seen. unless that brand is giving you a free bike or something its stupid. the only reason i defend the YFZ is because it is a great bike. i like what Can-Am has done, it will help the sport that we all love to advance even farther. what you said about the 450's being so close is a very true statement. if you buy a new 450 of any brand you cannot lose. they are all good bikes. just think, we all can thank YAMAHA for starting the 450cc class in 04 with the YFZ.:D ever since that they have improved it with adjustments(alot of them). even with me liking the YFZ that much i still wouldnt own a 04 or an 05. not saying they are bad but the amount of changes that yamaha has made over that length of time is crazy. riding ether one of those year bikes vs an 07 and up(even an 06) its like a completely different bike. yamaha has really improved them over the years to keep them competitive. it doesnt matter what you ride just that you do. so ride on;)

[ThePhantomRider]

Agree almost completely...little devil's advocate.

Yamaha was the first major company to go into the 450 segment for sure, and because of that, they set the bar and have had the most time to refine that current platform, it works, it's proven and as far as looks go, I still think they have the cleanest look of all.

But I think the whole segment has to thank Cannondale....sure they flubbed in execution, but they brought to the table a 440cc, EFI, high revving sport. They had an alloy frame, you could buy variations to accentuate your riding needs and offered goodies like Ohlins shocks standard.

While Cannondale gets the nod for starting the movement, Yamaha gets props for establishing it.

TPR

[54warrior]

Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
Agree almost completely...little devil's advocate.

Yamaha was the first major company to go into the 450 segment for sure, and because of that, they set the bar and have had the most time to refine that current platform, it works, it's proven and as far as looks go, I still think they have the cleanest look of all.

But I think the whole segment has to thank Cannondale....sure they flubbed in execution, but they brought to the table a 440cc, EFI, high revving sport. They had an alloy frame, you could buy variations to accentuate your riding needs and offered goodies like Ohlins shocks standard.

While Cannondale gets the nod for starting the movement, Yamaha gets props for establishing it.

TPR

Well put, thanks for not forgetting the C'Dales!!!

[TheNewn]

Yeah i agree with most of what YFZ Racer said, but again, Maybe giving a little TOO much credit to Yamaha. Sure credit is due, but like others have said;

Don't forget Cannondale.

[#17YFZRACER]

...little devil's advocate. :huh

[TheNewn]

It's an expression? Argue the other side?

[#17YFZRACER]

yeah i know i was just joking

[TheNewn]

Sure you were :)

[#17YFZRACER]

ok you caught me:blah: somehow i had never heard that expression before.:ermm: ive been schooled;)

[ride-to-live]

DAMN!!!! If i didnt have the money to fix that, i would like hell buy a 400ex rolling frame and take the motor and make it fit lol. That 400ex would be like a hondacam 450rex with that bad *** motor the ds450 has in it...

[m.h.s.c.#527]

Originally posted by ds450
There is no quad out there camparable to the Can am right now. Ive ridden hondas, yamaha junks, and suzukis and they dont even come close.

we r not biased

[Punk'd]

That can happen to any quad. Atleast the a-arms are good:blah:

[markeg192]

Hmmm, Ktm's Adam Mcgill has overalled the last three GNCCs and no one has even mentioned them.

[Quadevil]

Originally posted by markeg192
Hmmm, Ktm's Adam Mcgill has overalled the last three GNCCs and no one has even mentioned them.

We talked in ktm forums. While others speak, ktm prefers to show results ;)

[trx310R#24]

Originally posted by atvrider23054
that is the stupidist thing ive ever heard i can tell u all of those r better than the ds in many different ways expessially the yamaha and i dont see the pred with a bent frame they were both 5th gear and they both hit each other and not to mention the ds thread has one of the most threads complaining about there broken quad and its not even close as old as any other quad thread

people always b i t c h about new quads! always! thats how 98% of the world is! get over it

[Punk'd]

Atvrider maybe you should switch to dirtbikes because you SUCK

[Quad_Runner]

Originally posted by atvrider23054
that is the stupidist thing ive ever heard i can tell u all of those r better than the ds in many different ways expessially the yamaha and i dont see the pred with a bent frame they were both 5th gear and they both hit each other and not to mention the ds thread has one of the most threads complaining about there broken quad and its not even close as old as any other quad thread

:huh

[ds450racer]

Originally posted by atvrider23054
that is the stupidist thing ive ever heard i can tell u all of those r better than the ds in many different ways expessially the yamaha and i dont see the pred with a bent frame they were both 5th gear and they both hit each other and not to mention the ds thread has one of the most threads complaining about there broken quad and its not even close as old as any other quad thread

These bike havnt even been out a year yet! i think ull find every quad had as many problems as this when they first came out. By next year theyll be on the podium at every race.

[Scro]

They won't be on a GNCC podium with the radiator out front like it is...atleast not in a mud race.

[Dale512]

I agree the radiator isnt in the ideal location and they seem to be overheating quite a bit, but the utilities and V-Forces run their Radiators in pretty much the same position and they seem to do fine. I'm surprised they havent tried using a quick-replace Outerwears type covering on the race bikes for muddy races, sure it might add a few seconds on the pitstops but it would be better than DNFs also I didn't notice anytype of Oil-Cooler, that would probably help, Kawi runs them on their MX race bikes even. Bigger Oil Tank would help too I would think. I dunno they just need to do alittle more tweaking and it will be figured out.

[reptikes]

I think everybody on this thread should be smart enough to realize that the two quads mentioned above (ds450 & Pred), were not in 5th gear at all. If they were, that would be a Dead Stop Impact of around 110-120 mph. The ds450 would look worse than it does and believe me the pred would be tore up to. For all we know they hit at a combined speed of 20 mph.

Don't use your imagination, use your brain!

[BasicBajaX]

Originally posted by reptikes
I think everybody on this thread should be smart enough to realize that the two quads mentioned above (ds450 & Pred), were not in 5th gear at all. If they were, that would be a Dead Stop Impact of around 110-120 mph. The ds450 would look worse than it does and believe me the pred would be tore up to. For all we know they hit at a combined speed of 20 mph.

Don't use your imagination, use your brain!

I think you are right about this. Noway would it be such minimal damage...

[BenIL]

I see the comments here, and I wanna tell you that this guy already pay around 7500$ for a new frame... :(

[reptikes]

Originally posted by BenIL
I see the comments here, and I wanna tell you that this guy already pay around 7500$ for a new frame... :(

Why buy a frame for $7500, when you can get the whole quad cheaper than that? Not making sense are we! :rolleyes:

[BenIL]

Originally posted by reptikes
Why buy a frame for $7500, when you can get the whole quad cheaper than that? Not making sense are we! :rolleyes:
Well my friend, it's easy to say it while you live the U.S or so. Here in Israel, this ATV worth like 22,000$.. It's not that cheap here. In 7,500$ you can get a nice 04' DVX (Similar to Z-400, which not popular at all here).

[BasicBajaX]

$7500 dollar frame:eek2:

It just doesnt add up. Was anybody killed during this major 5th gear crash?

[RosquistRacer39]

Originally posted by BenIL
Well my friend, it's easy to say it while you live the U.S or so. Here in Israel, this ATV worth like 22,000$.. It's not that cheap here. In 7,500$ you can get a nice 04' DVX (Similar to Z-400, which not popular at all here).

That still makes the frame almost half of the cost of the new bike. Thats a lot, anyone in the U.S. have to buy a new frame yet? I was wondering if they cost like 3 grand?

[BenIL]

Originally posted by RosquistRacer39
That still makes the frame almost half of the cost of the new bike. Thats a lot, anyone in the U.S. have to buy a new frame yet? I was wondering if they cost like 3 grand?
It doesn't metter at all...
What, would you sell your ATV because your chasiss broke?

[RosquistRacer39]

No I wouldn't buy a ds if the chassis cost 3 grand U.S. alone. I have looked around for replacement frames for other models and there only around $200 to $600 U.S.

[BenIL]

I don't know what the frame prices are, but Here it's rare to see ATVs with new chasiss. In this specific DS, the accident was so bad, that the ATV even not starting. In most of the cases, people here keep riding with twisted chasiss.

[yoni2310]

i from nazzima i see this photo's they are very painful...

[nvrpmx]

Just thought i would let everyone know that we have a lot of new parts that we removed when building the race quads and also some used parts,there is too many to list so you will have to call motoworks @ 951-587-9222 and ask for Ty. Hopefully some of these parts will be what your looking for and will save you some money.

[rustyATV]

Originally posted by CannondaleRider
It all comes down to forces. The strength of forces, the direction. That energy has to go somewhere...no matter what quad you are riding, if struck right, a frame WILL bend. Something will bend...it just happened to be the front frame portion on this Can-Am.

You're forgetting another major factor, which are the properties of the materials involved.

Though some aluminum alloys can have better strength (ultimate stress) numbers than steel, ALL aluminum alloys have 1/3rd the "Modulus of Elasticity" (basically: resistance to bending) of steel.

What this means is that, for the same load, an aluminum piece of an equivalent section will deflect significantly more (not exactly three times as much, a lot factors into it).

This has a direct bearing on the loads an aluminum piece can support, because when any structural member is compressed, it must not only support the load, but also support itself. As the member deflects (or "bows out") with load, the deflection begins to act like a lever, further stressing the member it's center by applying a torque, which is why the tube with "Altec" printed on it is broken where it is (I'm willing to bet it flexed far enough to hit the engine, which is why the break isn't in the center of the tube).

I don't know how these quads hit each other, so I can't say for certain, but this incident may be a very dramatic demonstration of how much more resilient steel is.

Someone please remind me; what is the black section of the frame that the A-arms mount to made of? From the photos, that area appears straight, and because it is painted, my guess is that it is steel.

I don't want to take anything away from Can-Am engineers because they have definitely put a lot of thought into designing around aluminum's limitations, and of all the aluminum frames I've seen this far (cannondale, LRD, Laegers, Kawasaki), the DS450's has made me cringe the least, however I'm firmly of the opinion that you shouldn't build a tubular space frame from aluminum.

[rustyATV]

Originally posted by nvrpmx
Just thought i would let everyone know that we have a lot of new parts that we removed when building the race quads and also some used parts,there is too many to list so you will have to call motoworks @ 951-587-9222 and ask for Ty. Hopefully some of these parts will be what your looking for and will save you some money.

What are my chances of convincing you to try and bolt a DS450 axle into the rear end of a 400EX?

[Claas900]

I don't want to take anything away from Can-Am engineers because they have definitely put a lot of thought into designing around aluminum's limitations, and of all the aluminum frames I've seen this far (cannondale, LRD, Laegers, Kawasaki), the DS450's has made me cringe the least, however I'm firmly of the opinion that you shouldn't build a tubular space frame from aluminum. [/B][/QUOTE]

Sounds like you have never really seen a cdale frame, I'll put that frame against any frame you got, aftermarket or stock.
This guy hit a tree with his camam I don't care what frame you have its going to give. Don't matter steel or aluminum.

[rustyATV]

Originally posted by Claas900 Sounds like you have never really seen a cdale frame, I'll put that frame against any frame you got, aftermarket or stock. [/B]

I studied the Cannondale frame for a senior design project when I was in school. There are a lot of things I like about it and I consider it a close second to the Can Am. I especially like the wide rails on the top, using aluminum's lower density to take advantage of the strength and rigidity a larger cross section member affords to support the compression loads, but they still build with aluminum as if they are building with steel, relying on the strength of the individual members to resist torsional loads, rather than geometry. You can get away with more of a compromised design with steel because it's more resistant to bending and fatigue. With aluminum, that's not quite the case, and tubular space frame quad chassis are far from an ideal structure. Can Am recognized this, and added the extra members on the sides to control torsion.

Better still would be a monocoque design so that loads are evenly distributed over a larger area of the material, all around the structure, but full monocoques don't allow for easy access to the internals and can trap dirt and mud. Always compromising.

The only thing I really hate about the Cannondale is the rear swingarm; the shock placement and angle guarantees huge cyclic loads, which aluminum doesn't deal with well over time.


Originally posted by Claas900 This guy hit a tree with his camam I don't care what frame you have its going to give. Don't matter steel or aluminum. [/B]

Actually, if you read the thread, he hit a Polaris Predator head on, which suffered no damage, if I recall. I find that a little hard to believe that he didn't bend a tie rod or steering stem, though.

[markeg192]

Well boys I hate to tell you this, but while putting new springs on my shocks toda y I noticed something. The front shock on the brake side has less than half an inch clearence from the backside of the upper aarm. The shifter side has closer to an inch.

[markeg192]

My frame was bent. Canam wouldn't warranty it so I I chainrd it to a tree and used my truck how to pull it straight. I was shocked at 2 things, first at the amount of force it took to move it back into place.
Secondy, the material in the frame is really durable. The chain didn't leave a mark in the frame and hardly left a scrath in the coating. I was disappointed when I noticed it was bent, but after getting it straight, or at least close to stratght, and riding it I am glad I bought one. I just love the wat it runs and handles.

[Mr. Big Time]

I had just had to buy one, it was 1,300$. It did a few cart-wheels before bending.

[quadhunter]

nothing is indestructible no matter who makes it or what its made out of. just ride it till it falls apart and have fun doin it, because eventually everything brakes, theres no way around it unless you put it in a glass box and just look at it. Im sorry about your wrecked quad that sucks hope you are able to get it fixed. best of luck to all

[Mr. Big Time]

Yup, I agree. They all have flaws, and all have good stuff to them, but no matter what, they all break. I had everything switched over to a new frame in one day, doing it by myself.