octane

[sictrxr]

im currently building a je 440 11:1 i was wondering does it require race gas or could i run it on pump 93. usually i would just run it on race gas but my r's guzzle it and the 440 intended to be a trail quad. also the new 450r's are like 12:1 and they only require pump so what gives?????

[Dinner]

I would think you would be alright to run 93 in your motor if you are only running 11:1 compression. However if you wanted to run even 94 it wouldn't hurt. Friend of mine had well we don't even know what he had in his gas tank when we bought it. Put 94 in it and you can easily see the difference in performance. Doesn't load up down low and has better RPM pick up.

I think running race fuel would just be wasting money for yourself...

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by sictrxr
im currently building a je 440 11:1 i was wondering does it require race gas or could i run it on pump 93. usually i would just run it on race gas but my r's guzzle it and the 440 intended to be a trail quad. also the new 450r's are like 12:1 and they only require pump so what gives????? What gives is that you can't compare a liquid cooled engine to an air cooled one. It's not the compression so much that caused detonation, it's more the added heat that comes with it. That's why liquid cooled engines can handle more compression, they can handle the heat better.

You might be fine with pump gas at 11:1 but be willing to get some race gas just in case. It's right on the edge.

[red_rider_069]

nah, im runnning a 12.5:1 JE piston in a wiseco sleeve.. im run it on on 93 its runs jsut fine.. and it hasn't over heated.. i've had it for a while now.. it should be fine to run it on 91..

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by red_rider_069
nah, im runnning a 12.5:1 JE piston in a wiseco sleeve.. im run it on on 93 its runs jsut fine.. and it hasn't over heated.. i've had it for a while now.. it should be fine to run it on 91.. Dude, whatever! In another post you talk about mixing jet fuel with pump gas for your ride.


Originally posted by red_rider_069
i run mine with a mix of 91 pump and 110 jet fuel about 50/50

In another post you're talking about just going to a 12.5:1.

Originally posted by red_rider_069
im gonna go with a 440 12.5:1 compression piston instead.. my sleeves perfectly fine =)

Telling someone that they can run a 12.5:1 440 on pump fuel isn't cool man. These people need real info, not BS.

[red_rider_069]

Originally posted by TRXRacer1
Dude, whatever! In another post you talk about mixing jet fuel with pump gas for your ride.



In another post you're talking about just going to a 12.5:1.


Telling someone that they can run a 12.5:1 440 on pump fuel isn't cool man. These people need real info, not BS.
Dude, read carefully.. i mix my gas 50-50, all i said is that it shouldn't harm it becuase i have ran it on when i had my 11:1 compression with 91.. 93 is a bit higher.. and i realize i put 12.5:1 but i ment 11:1.. chill out.. jees;)

Normaly for air cooled 11:1 is the highest you want to go on pump gas. Liquid cooled normaly can go till 13:1 before needing high octain gas. I never had a high comp piston in a 400ex engine so im not sure but my liquid cooled yz426 engine came 12.5:1 factory and ran fine on 93 oct.

[red_rider_069]

Originally posted by bajaracer21
Normaly for air cooled 11:1 is the highest you want to go on pump gas. Liquid cooled normaly can go till 13:1 before needing high octain gas. I never had a high comp piston in a 400ex engine so im not sure but my liquid cooled yz426 engine came 12.5:1 factory and ran fine on 93 oct.
yea my friends dad got a 07 450r and its 12:1 compression stock.. always has ran it on 91.. no 93 around here.. and race gas is expesinve.. somtimes he has mixed it when we head out to sand mountain, NV.. but for trail riding he sticks with 91 and its seems jsut fine.. but then again its liquid cooled..

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by red_rider_069
Dude, read carefully.. i mix my gas 50-50, all i said is that it shouldn't harm it becuase i have ran it on when i had my 11:1 compression with 91.. 93 is a bit higher.. and i realize i put 12.5:1 but i ment 11:1.. chill out.. jees;) I can chill but that's not the first BS you've tossed out there. Just like you say you're mixing jet fuel and pump gas. Jet fuel is like Kerosene man, no way are you running that in your quad.

[sictrxr]

i may do what i do in my r's one comp tests at 225 and i mix 4to1 100ll av gas and vp c-12 . i think in the 400 ill mix 93 and 100ll 50-50 but gettin av fuel is a pain in the ***

[zrpilot]

Please remember, even though the 450Rs maybe running 12.5:1, they are a different head design, liquid cooled, and different cam specs. COMLETELY different then the 400EX.

Also remember regional differences in gas could mean running 93 octane vs. race gas.

EVERY motor is different and you have to find the fuel that works in your motor. To say that one would be safe running pump gas on 11:1 is simply not the WHOLE story.

[Jnblaster05]

i just did the 440 mod and was running 93 and it was ok but then decided to mix 1 gallon of 110 and 2 of 92 octaner and man that made a diffrence its awesome try it out!!!

[bearair]

I would really recommend that 100LL (low lead) avgas not be used in a quad. The tetraethyl lead in avgas will gum up rings and leave deposits in an engine not specifically designed for it. It's a very good fuel for airplanes, but not for cars or bikes built since about 1972. It's called low lead, but it's higher in lead content than even the old leaded fuels were in 1970. It's a fight to keep spark plugs from fouling in an aircraft and it causes other issues in the cylinder as well. These problems happen even in engines that were SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED for the fuel. Also, buying the fuel for use in ANYTHING besides an airplane is not just an offense, but a FEDERAL (read felony) offense. Airports can lose fueling licenses selling it for non-intended use, people that buy it and put it in vehicles can get jail time. Not something to be messing with people.

It's also an environmental hazard, but it's somewhat mitigated by the fact that aviation fuel is a fraction of 1% of fuel used for motor vehicles. It will soon be a thing of the past even in aircraft as the FAA and EPA are working closely to try to come up with a replacement. Bottom line, it's not for quads or cars. It can damage engines not designed to burn it off during combustion. It really only works well at 60% or higher continuous load (planes typically cruise at 75% rated power). It's still a pain in the *** to keep plugs clean. I clean ours every 50 hours of flight time or so.

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by bearair
It's a very good fuel for airplanes, but not for cars or bikes built since about 1972. It's called low lead, but it's higher in lead content than even the old leaded fuels were in 1970. It's a fight to keep spark plugs from fouling in an aircraft and it causes other issues in the cylinder as well. These problems happen even in engines that were SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED for the fuel. What's up with 1972? The only major difference I can think of is we have hardened valve seats now. Cylinders, pistons and rings haven't really changed much. I used to hang around an airport quite a bit because a family member owned a J3 Cub. He never had any fouling issues and neither did his buddies. i was unaware of the laws though. If that's true it's something to consider.

[bearair]

The main reason for the laws is to keep people from using it as an auto fuel!

The lead really started to come out of the fuel around 1972. It was down to a fraction of what it was by 1976 when catalytic converters hit the scene. Even after that the leaded fuel you could get for older cars had less than a tenth of what it had in 1970 or so. It's one of the reasons car manufacturers started putting hardened seats in the cylinder heads in the early 70's.

As far as aircraft are concerned, lead fouling is something that I learned about firsthand in training. It's one of the things you can find when doing magneto checks before takeoff. Lead fouling can happen just taxiing since the cylinder temps aren't high enough to burn it off properly. I personally haven't had a huge problem with it, but I clean our plugs every 50 hours to keep it from being a problem. They have deposits in them, but it's not enough to cause an issue. Even great running engines have the problem.

Pistons and rings have most definitely changed a bunch! Metallurgy has come a LONG way since the old days of cast iron piston rings. Pistons have come a huge distance also. The old cast aluminum pistons couldn't begin to hold up to the cylinder pressures in new car engines today. The hyper-eutectic pistons weren't even thought of in the 70's. Cylinder material has changed also. The alloy for engine blocks and the ability to use different liner material is actually recent. Back in the 70's using a cylinder liner in a different alloy block led to problems down the road. Usually in the form of head gasket issues. Gaskets have come a long way also. Heck, I remember rope seals for cranks. I'm talking literal rope. That's what the big three used to use in the 50's and well into the 60's. I used to have a special tool for pulling old rope seals out with the crank in the block.

[05strokinfx4]

how about this 90 octane vp fuel for the stock compression 400ex ama uses it

NEW! MR-PRO4.1™
Formulated to maximize power under AMA Pro Racing unleaded fuel rules while meeting the lower octane demands of 4-stroke racing engines. Makes even more power than its predecessor, MR PRO4, which was used by Ricky Carmichael to win the AMA Outdoor National Championships for the last three consecutive years.

• Color: Clear
• Oxygenated: Yes
• Motor Octane: 90
• Specific Gravity: .756 at 60° F

these two are leaded

MR9
Designed for 4-stroke applications that can tolerate lower actane values. Makes up to 8% more power than pump gas and up to 2% more power than MRX01. Used by every champion in AMA Superbike Pro classes in 2004 and 2005, as well as the Supermoto, Supermoto Lite and Supermoto Unlimited championships in 2005. Although currently not legal in AMA Pro Racing, MR9 passes fuel rules for AMA amateur racing as well as club level racing, CCS, WERA and AFM.

• Color: Clear
• Oxygenated: Yes
• Motor Octane: 87
• Specific Gravity: .718 at 60° F



NEW! MR11™
Recommended for 4-stroke applications where octane requirements are fairly low, e.g. Supersport, Superbike, Formula Extreme, Supermoto and MX. Delivers up to 6% more power than pump gas and any basic nonoxygenated racing fuel. AMA legal except Supercross and Outdoor Nationals.

• Color: Yellow
• Oxygenated: Yes
• Motor Octane: 90
• Specific Gravity: .749 at 60° F

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by bearair

Pistons and rings have most definitely changed a bunch! Metallurgy has come a LONG way since the old days of cast iron piston rings. Pistons have come a huge distance also. The old cast aluminum pistons couldn't begin to hold up to the cylinder pressures in new car engines today. The hyper-eutectic pistons weren't even thought of in the 70's. Cylinder material has changed also. The alloy for engine blocks and the ability to use different liner material is actually recent. Back in the 70's using a cylinder liner in a different alloy block led to problems down the road. Usually in the form of head gasket issues. Gaskets have come a long way also. Heck, I remember rope seals for cranks. I'm talking literal rope. That's what the big three used to use in the 50's and well into the 60's. I used to have a special tool for pulling old rope seals out with the crank in the block. :D

I couldn't agree more! So if we both agree engines are miles ahead (I'm aware I said the opposite) then why would this fuel be so bad for a modern engine? What exactly does 100ll do to the parts?

[sictrxr]

oh i was from the school of thought that lead was good at least in my 2-strokes i came to understand it provides added lubrication.( maybe more important fr a 2-stroke) i mean vp uses leaded fuels

[bearair]

The lead content in avgas is a lot higher than leaded race fuel. Don't let the "low lead" name fool you. Lead is an upper cylinder lubricant, but not as good of one as other options out there. There has been extensive testing by several organisations using unleaded, ethanol and blended fuels. It's been discovered that the lead is doing more harm than good re: deposit formation and oil contamination. The large amount of lead in avgas is also a knock reduction/octane booster. There are better ways to boost octane than lead. It's basically a left over from 50 years ago and is going to be phased out soon. I've got new articles talking about the coming solutions on my desk every month now. It's going to affect the entire piston aircraft industry, but environmental groups are screaming about the polution and owners are upset about the prices.

[400sEXridr]

to answer the original question, i run a 11:1 406 on 93 octane pump gas and it runs fine never overheats. i wouldnt run anything lower but im also not willing to waste that much money to run a 50/50 mix just to drop engine temps a few degrees.

[BigBore24]

not to change the topic but does anyone know if it is ok to use octane boost or is it just a waste of money or bad for engine. the reason i ask is the only place close to me that sells race fuel burned down (scary huh). thanks

[Jnblaster05]

octane booster is bad it wont do much to help plus it also eats o rings.....

[GPracer2500]

Originally posted by bearair
The lead content in avgas is a lot higher than leaded race fuel. Don't let the "low lead" name fool you. Lead is an upper cylinder lubricant, but not as good of one as other options out there. There has been extensive testing by several organisations using unleaded, ethanol and blended fuels. It's been discovered that the lead is doing more harm than good re: deposit formation and oil contamination. The large amount of lead in avgas is also a knock reduction/octane booster. There are better ways to boost octane than lead. It's basically a left over from 50 years ago and is going to be phased out soon. I've got new articles talking about the coming solutions on my desk every month now. It's going to affect the entire piston aircraft industry, but environmental groups are screaming about the polution and owners are upset about the prices.

100LL has a maximum lead specification of 2.12 g/gal. Most leaded racing fuels contain about 4 g/gal. VP C12, for example, contains 4.23 g/gal. I'm not aware of any leaded racing fuels that contain less than 3 g/gal. According to the EPA (http://www.epa.gov/history/topics/lead/02.htm), in 1973 the average lead content was 2-3 g/gal. 100LL is not some sort of "super-leaded" gasoline. It's actually at the low end of the spectrum among the leaded fuels available.

Also, what is better at boosting octane rating than lead? If you know the answer you're sitting on a gold mine. Make sure to get your patent application in soon! ;) The highest octane unleaded gasoline I'm aware of is VP's Motorsport 109 with its 101 MON octane rating. Thats five MON points lower than an average leaded racing fuel and over five points lower than some leaded racing fuels. Why? Because no one has figured out how to practically produce an unleaded fuel that can compare to the octane ratings of leaded fuels. All things considered (e.g. energy content factors, cost, etc), lead is THE BEST additive known for achieving the very high octane ratings needed by some engines (the environment and public health notwithstanding). Part of the problem with unleaded performance fuels is this: In an effort to increase octane rating you will generally harm some of the other very important characteristics of gasoline. For example, you could make a fuel comprised of 100% toluene and have a very high octane rating with zero lead. But you'd wind up with an ugly distillation curve and you'd have to pre-heat the fuel before your engine would run it. There are many important characteristics of gasoline that extend beyond octane rating.

It is the challenge of fuel designers to produce a gasoline that is able to satisfy ALL the requirements we demand. Lead is wonderful for fuel designers because it allows an advantageous blend of hydrocarbons AND a robust octane rating.

Lead does reduce plug life. Although as far as I'm concerned it doesn't effect plug life enough to care about in a powersport application. As a private pilot myself I can appreciate the importance of nice clean plugs. But in my toys that run leaded racing fuels I get plenty of plug life. Plenty. I apply similar logic to oil contamination. There's probably dozens of longevity issues I'm more concerned about then contaminating oil by running leaded fuel. From a mechanical standpoint, the negative impact of leaded fuel in a powersport application is easily overwhelmed by the positives.

If you don't mind me commenting, I wouldn't get too hung-up on what's happening within the aviation community regarding fuel. I don't see much relevance between that topic and what fuels may or may not be appropriate in our quads. That's not to say that I believe 100LL doesn't have a place for powersport use--I think it does have a place. But the inevitable evolution of the GA fleet and the fuel it uses doesn't necessarily mean much for powersport applications, IMO.

$0.02

[sictrxr]

so gpracer2500 its fine thats what i thought ive been runnin it in my 310 250r for years and in my other r's and have never had a problem

[bearair]

Just as an FYI, 1973 was the year mandated lead content was reduced to 1.1 grams/gal. with further reductions until 1986 when it was .1 gram/gal. It was banned for on road motor vehicle use effective 1996.

Aviation 100ll max is 2.12 grams (as GPracer stated) with typical being 2.0. 80 octane avgas used to be .5 grams/gal which is why some engines continue to have problems with lead fouling. 80 avgas is no longer available and engines that were intended for use with the lower lead content have a hard time burning it off.

100LL is not supposed to be used for anything except aviation and certain industries using an exemption for testing. Says so on the pump where you get fuel.

Leaded race fuel is a different story. Currently it's used under an exemption granted by the EPA for use in competition/off road use only. Technically it's supposed to be used for closed course competition, but in reading the regulations there's enough ambiguity to be able to interpret it as being able to be used in "off highway vehicles" meaning dirt bikes and quads. That loophole will be closed here in a couple years as leaded racing fuel is going to be outlawed in Canada effective Jan. 2009, with the U.S. expected to follow in 2010. It's still not cast in stone though as to the final date. This would have a huge effect on drag racing. NASCAR has been working with the EPA to only allow unleaded racing fuels here shortly.

Didn't mean to say that all leaded race fuel is lower lead content than 100LL. Some is, some isn't. Spoke a bit too fast on that one.

As to what's a better octane booster than lead? Don't know yet. It's going to be a moot point though as it's going away. The one and only producer of tetraethyl is under pressure to end production by the European Union. The facility is in England and is the last remaining producer in the world. Lead compounds in fuel have been proven to be an environmental hazard so it's only a matter of time until they are eliminated.

Back to the topic, why not run E85? It's more environmentally friendly and allows you to run even higher compression since it's about 115 effective octane. It's a WHOLE lot less expensive now also. For the amounts that quads use I'd think it would make a lot of sense. I'm going to be exploring it with mine when the warranty is up. Figure on boring to 416 and bumping compression to 11:1.

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by bearair


100LL is not supposed to be used for anything except aviation and certain industries using an exemption for testing. Says so on the pump where you get fuel.


Back to the topic, why not run E85? It's more environmentally friendly and allows you to run even higher compression since it's about 115 effective octane. It's a WHOLE lot less expensive now also. Not to be cold but who cares if 100ll is not supposed to used to anything except aviation? If it works and you can get it I say use it. I agree 100% with what GPracer2500 said, for powersports a slightly shorter plug life doesn't really add up to much. I asked what parts specifically 100ll would harm and you didn't offer any. Oil contamination really isn't a big deal because a lot of people that keep even decent maintenance change it too often for that to be an issue either.

As far as E85 goes (it's more like 105 octane not 115), I run and love it but it's having a larger impact on us then aviation fuel is. Our tax dollars subsidize it to make it look like a smart economical choice, farmers are paying out their teeth to keep up with feed cost and corn rapes the earth like no other increasing the amount of chemicals that are pumped on to fields. Those added chemicals are adding to an already increasing nitrate problem in our drinking water. There are tons of unintended consequences involved with E85 so I wouldn't call it better for anything except for how my quad runs.

[flauge]

Heres another one for yall... Toluene. I seen that Formula 1 used it back in the 80's but thats all I know about it. :ermm:

[red_rider_069]

Originally posted by TRXRacer1
I can chill but that's not the first BS you've tossed out there. Just like you say you're mixing jet fuel and pump gas. Jet fuel is like Kerosene man, no way are you running that in your quad. yes way dude.. its 110 octane.. i call jet feul i might be wrong, but we buy it at the airport.. and says 110 octane.. we mix it and runs fine.. im assuming its jet fuel since we get it at the airport?!?!:ermm: