Outlaw 525 oil

[ojcool]

What oil are you guys running? So far I have been using the PS Plus 0w50 that the manual calls for but I can't imagine you cannot use any other oil. I would prefer to use a full synthetic commonly available anywhere instead of the really expensive Polaris oil. Sorry if this has been covered but you cannot do a search with the word "oil" cause its only three letters. I don't want to take any chances with the KTM powerplant it seems kind of finicky with everything else so I want to be sure that another oil is acceptable.
Plus 0w 50 is not a weight oil I have seen anywhere else but powersports.

[eerhard09]

There is another site that I can't mention but there is a good consensus on there about Rotella T Synthetic from Wal-Mart at $16 a gallon! I have been running it and so far, so good, runs great with no issues (and helps keep motor noise down).... I also believe that it is the same oil being used in the KTM Factory bikes but don't quote me on that!

[spanky101]

what weight is that Rotella oil your talking about?

[Outlaw 50]

Originally posted by eerhard09
There is another site that I can't mention but there is a good consensus on there about Rotella T Synthetic from Wal-Mart at $16 a gallon! I have been running it and so far, so good, runs great with no issues (and helps keep motor noise down).... I also believe that it is the same oil being used in the KTM Factory bikes but don't quote me on that!

Why can't another site be mentioned? I have been a member here for years and have never seen that rule.

[Outlaw 50]

Originally posted by spanky101
what weight is that Rotella oil your talking about?

There are two weights of Rotella oil that will work. The synthetic is 5w-40, the regular is 15w-40.

[Evasiveone]

The PS4 Polaris oil is 0w-50. The PS4 plus Polaris oil is actually a 2w-50 oil.

Rotella is wet clutch safe. It meets the JASO certification. The 5w-40 synthetic has to much ash in it though to fully qualify. But since our quads are not running emmision systems in them no biggie.

"We recently ran the JASO MA friction test on Rotella T with Triple
Protection 15W-40, Rotella T Synthetic 5W-40 (CI-4) and our soon to be
introduced (within the next 2 months) Rotella T Synthetic 5W-40 CJ-4.
All three oils passed the wet clutch friction test. Rotella T Synthetic
5W-40 (CI-4) has more than 1.2% ash (JASO MA spec limit) so it can not
be classified as JASO MA. However, Rotella T with Triple Protection
15W-40 and our soon to be introduced Rotella T Synthetic 5W-40 CJ-4 do
meet JASO MA."

If you have any additional questions please call us at 800-231-6950.
Thank you for your interest in Shell products.

Richard Moore
Staff Engineer
Shell Global Solutions (US) Inc.
Westhollow Technology Center, PO Box 4327, Houston, TX 77210, United
States of America "

One of the most recent of 100's of discussions on Rotella T in a bike/quad engine on that site. (http://ktmtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=275374&st=0)

[ojcool]

What weight is that oil?

These are my opinions on oil:

Oil is oil, the additives are what make them different
Synthetic is better than conventional
Synthetic blends are a ripoff (there is very little synthetic oil in them)
The only thing I think is critical about choosing an oil is the weight/viscosity. The engine's tolerances are designed for a certain viscosity oil and using a heavier one will cause major increase in oil pressure and therefore extra wear on the oil pump, possible startup wear ect, possible seal failure.
Using a thinner oil will cause too low of oil pressure and increase wear on internals due to decreased film shear strength.
The most important thing about oil is changing it at proper intervals, not so much oil brand selection.
De-foaming additives are the most important to wear prevention, second would be oil shear strength, then detergents.
Detergents do nothing other than keep dirt suspended for removal by the filtration system.

Please comment on these statements.

[ojcool]

Originally posted by Evasiveone
The PS4 Polaris oil is 0w-50. The PS4 plus Polaris oil is actually a 2w-50 oil.

Rotella is wet clutch safe. It meets the JASO certification. The 5w-40 synthetic has to much ash in it though to fully qualify. But since our quads are not running emmision systems in them no biggie.

"We recently ran the JASO MA friction test on Rotella T with Triple
Protection 15W-40, Rotella T Synthetic 5W-40 (CI-4) and our soon to be
introduced (within the next 2 months) Rotella T Synthetic 5W-40 CJ-4.
All three oils passed the wet clutch friction test. Rotella T Synthetic
5W-40 (CI-4) has more than 1.2% ash (JASO MA spec limit) so it can not
be classified as JASO MA. However, Rotella T with Triple Protection
15W-40 and our soon to be introduced Rotella T Synthetic 5W-40 CJ-4 do
meet JASO MA."

If you have any additional questions please call us at 800-231-6950.
Thank you for your interest in Shell products.

Richard Moore
Staff Engineer
Shell Global Solutions (US) Inc.
Westhollow Technology Center, PO Box 4327, Houston, TX 77210, United
States of America "

One of the most recent of 100's of discussions on Rotella T in a bike/quad engine on that site. (http://ktmtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=275374&st=0)
What affect does ash have on the oil?

[spanky101]

has anyone ever used panolin oils?

http://www.panolinamerica.com/

That is their link to their site. Its not great site but they make a 10w-50 100% synthetic. Its their race offroad oil. would this be ok or would sticking to the atv 10w-40 be better? the reason i am lookin into them is my brother races mx and has sponsorship from them. Thanks

[SSJEFF]

predatorowners

oops, I let it slip.

[eerhard09]

Originally posted by SSJEFF
predatorowners

oops, I let it slip.

Bad SSJEFF, BAD!:eek:

[ojcool]

Originally posted by Evasiveone
The PS4 Polaris oil is 0w-50. The PS4 plus Polaris oil is actually a 2w-50 oil.

Rotella is wet clutch safe. It meets the JASO certification. The 5w-40 synthetic has to much ash in it though to fully qualify. But since our quads are not running emmision systems in them no biggie.

"We recently ran the JASO MA friction test on Rotella T with Triple
Protection 15W-40, Rotella T Synthetic 5W-40 (CI-4) and our soon to be
introduced (within the next 2 months) Rotella T Synthetic 5W-40 CJ-4.
All three oils passed the wet clutch friction test. Rotella T Synthetic
5W-40 (CI-4) has more than 1.2% ash (JASO MA spec limit) so it can not
be classified as JASO MA. However, Rotella T with Triple Protection
15W-40 and our soon to be introduced Rotella T Synthetic 5W-40 CJ-4 do
meet JASO MA."

If you have any additional questions please call us at 800-231-6950.
Thank you for your interest in Shell products.

Richard Moore
Staff Engineer
Shell Global Solutions (US) Inc.
Westhollow Technology Center, PO Box 4327, Houston, TX 77210, United
States of America "

One of the most recent of 100's of discussions on Rotella T in a bike/quad engine on that site. (http://ktmtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=275374&st=0)

This is an interesting comparison of popular oils. Synthetic and conventional.

VI-Viscosity Index (the higher the number the better)

Flash- The temp the oil will vaporize considered "thermal breakdown"

Pour- 5 degrees F above the point where a chilled oil shows no movement at the surface for 5 seconds when inclined.

%Ash- the amount of residue left behind when an oil breaks down thermally i.e. burns off = sludge

%zinc- zinc is added to prevent scuffing and wear when their is actual metal to metal contact. .11% is enough for normal use. More Zinc does not improve protecting but extends protection during metal to metal contact.

NOTE: I had to remove the chart with the oils because it just won't display properly. Here is the lind to the article.

Link to Oil article (http://micapeak.com/info/oiled.html)



What I gleaned from this article is that higher differential oils i.e. 10w 40 (30 point viscosity spread) require the use of "polymers" to keep the oil thick enough at operation. These Polymers are molecules (that do not lubricate) that; "wind up" when cold to thin the oil; and "unwind" at temperature to thicken the oil. Since they have no lubricant properties themselves the use of them to improve "viscosity index" is a bad thing. It's in essence chemically tricking the oil into being something it's not. The less, or in some cases, non use of these polymers (amsoil) means that you have a higher quality base oil, which is ideal.

So looking at this chart the Rotella does not seem to be all that good of a selection. With only a 146 viscosity index and a flash point of 410 degrees I'm thinking a better choice could be made, however those values are from their 15w 40.

Riddle me this......The thing that is fundamentally confusing about all this is that I have always been told that a thinner oil has a lower viscosity value. i.e. 5w is thinner than 10w, and a thicker oil has a higher number, 50 is thicker than 40. This does not jive with my understanding of physics. How can the oil be thinner at the colder temperature? I suppose it is through the use of "polymers" however, Amsoil apparently does not use polymers in many of their oils. How are they achieving this viscosity "magic"? I would expect the oil to get thinner at a higher temperature, not thicker.

Regardless, the 0w 50 viscosity oil that Polaris recommends has a 50 point viscosity differential. That I am being told is bad, too much reliance on polymers to maintain viscosity at operating temperature. Apparently the reason polymers are bad is the fact that through use they are "sheared" into smaller pieces in the high pressure areas of the engine and eventually do not preform their function over time. So the oil begins to effectively "thin" over time and provide less protection. I am concerned about using an oil in place of this 0w 50 grade because should I replace it with a 20w 50 grade oil would the increased viscosity at low temperature cause increased wear due to slow pumping? I guess at this point I am stuck with the polaris oil. I wonder what KTM recommends.....

[Outlaw 50]

You are not going to find an oil with a higher shear factor than a diesel oil anywhere. Besides the oil will be changed long before it is even an issue because of the clutch .

[LT250_JOE]

Too much debate for me. I just find a comparable oil to what the factory recommends. Stick with the same brand and blend. Change it regularly and have no problems. I personally dont leave oil in my quad long enough to begin getting dirty.

[LT250_JOE]

Originally posted by SSJEFF
predatorowners

oops, I let it slip.


Good job....Now the MAN is going to delete the whole thread!!!

oh yeah also on ktmtalk.com (now youre causing me to slip)

[SSJEFF]

I am happy that the 525 takes lees oil than the 500, that is savings right there. I will probably try the Rotela. I have no problems finding nuetral after adjusting the clutch handle and breaking it in.

[ojcool]

Yeah, neutral is actually pretty easy to find on this bike. The Banshee is the hardest one i have found. Even with a modified shift star it's tough.

I guess I'll try the Rotella as well. Got one more oil change worth of PS Plus in the garage though.

[spanky101]

how much oil does the 450 and 525 take oil wise?

[SSJEFF]

My dealer told me 1 and 1/3 quarts.

[sheriff525]

Could i use Mobile 1 5W-40 oil. I know it is a diesel oil but so is the rotella? They are almost the same price here and i don't see why not.

[brhaminator]

I like to save money where i can so I save all my old bacon grease and do my oil changes with that. The vescosity is great and it gives off a great smell when I ride so I am always hungry after a ride. The best thing about it though is I know I am due for an oil change when the jug I keep the left over bacon gease is full. This way I never have to keep track of how many hours of riding time between oil changes. I have only had to do 6 1/2 engin over hauls since I got it last november. The 1/2 was for the first over haul, I took it in under warrenty. They got half way through and saw I was not using the "recomend oil" and said it would not be covered so I finished it myself. Can you belive that, what dic_s! Any way I think the pros out weigh the cons. It is deffinatly an oil saver.

[Outlaw 50]

Originally posted by brhaminator
I like to save money where i can so I save all my old bacon grease and do my oil changes with that. The vescosity is great and it gives off a great smell when I ride so I am always hungry after a ride. The best thing about it though is I know I am due for an oil change when the jug I keep the left over bacon gease is full. This way I never have to keep track of how many hours of riding time between oil changes. I have only had to do 6 1/2 engin over hauls since I got it last november. The 1/2 was for the first over haul, I took it in under warrenty. They got half way through and saw I was not using the "recomend oil" and said it would not be covered so I finished it myself. Can you belive that, what dic_s! Any way I think the pros out weigh the cons. It is deffinatly an oil saver.

http://i29.tinypic.com/1035t8g.gif

[sheriff525]

Originally posted by brhaminator
I like to save money where i can so I save all my old bacon grease and do my oil changes with that. The vescosity is great and it gives off a great smell when I ride so I am always hungry after a ride. The best thing about it though is I know I am due for an oil change when the jug I keep the left over bacon gease is full. This way I never have to keep track of how many hours of riding time between oil changes. I have only had to do 6 1/2 engin over hauls since I got it last november. The 1/2 was for the first over haul, I took it in under warrenty. They got half way through and saw I was not using the "recomend oil" and said it would not be covered so I finished it myself. Can you belive that, what dic_s! Any way I think the pros out weigh the cons. It is deffinatly an oil saver.

This is why i love riding behind you! HAHAHAHAHA i laughed my bag off!

[SSJEFF]

What brand of bacon was it though. I hear turkey bacon grease is really bad on motors.

[ojcool]

Originally posted by brhaminator
I like to save money where i can so I save all my old bacon grease and do my oil changes with that. The vescosity is great and it gives off a great smell when I ride so I am always hungry after a ride. The best thing about it though is I know I am due for an oil change when the jug I keep the left over bacon gease is full. This way I never have to keep track of how many hours of riding time between oil changes. I have only had to do 6 1/2 engin over hauls since I got it last november. The 1/2 was for the first over haul, I took it in under warrenty. They got half way through and saw I was not using the "recomend oil" and said it would not be covered so I finished it myself. Can you belive that, what dic_s! Any way I think the pros out weigh the cons. It is deffinatly an oil saver.


My sentiments exactly, thats why I think I'll just pony out the extra money for the Polaris oil, or the KTM oil. Engineers design engines with a particular oil in mind, just anything isn't exactly the same. It's just an added risk that isn't really worth it.

[SSJEFF]

the more people I talk to that run KTM's the more I hear that the KTM race teams run rotella-t. I talked to a guy at a race sunday that has a KTM quad and that what he is running also. I ran it in mine for the first time during the race and it did fine.

[sheriff525]

I can't get rotella T where i live. so my question still stands can i use Mobile 1 5W50 or 5W40?
I have looked for Rotella T and i found it but it is for Diesel engines and it cost $12.00 a liter....polaris oil $11.00 and Mobile 1 cost $38 for 5 liters. So i chose to put my money where it will help me ride more and have to work less!

[brhaminator]

I am tell ya man, bacon grease all the way.

[SSJEFF]

Originally posted by sheriff525
I can't get rotella T where i live. so my question still stands can i use Mobile 1 5W50 or 5W40?
I have looked for Rotella T and i found it but it is for Diesel engines and it cost $12.00 a liter....polaris oil $11.00 and Mobile 1 cost $38 for 5 liters. So i chose to put my money where it will help me ride more and have to work less!

Moblie one is not clutch friendly unless it is the motorcycle kind which I have never seen in a store. I saw some at the triumph dealership the other day and it was $9 a quart. It said it was for motorcycles and atv's on it though.

Rotella-t is a deisel oil. It is what we are running. We are buying buuy the gallon here in the states for $16us a gallon for the synthetic. i think the regular is $9us a gallon.

[eerhard09]

Originally posted by sheriff525
I can't get rotella T where i live.

Wow, I can't believe that you do nto have a Wal-Mart anywhere close to you, that is where I get it. It is in the blue 1 gallon jug....

[Old Outlaw]

Walmart doesn't carry Rotella T in Canada. It's available from any Shell distributors. That's where I got mine from.

[SSJEFF]

That is interesting that walmart does not carry it in Canada. You would think that they would. At least some things were cleared up in this thread.

[sheriff525]

Sweet...Now i have seen the Rotella here at another store and it is the synthetic 5W-40 so i am going to try that and see how it works... thanks for your help. I believe it is the synthetic t diesel oil. The diesel part threw me off and i just wasn't sure. I know my brother is having alot of success with his bacon grease but it just makes me too hungry when we go riding. So i will just stick with what i find. THanks so much. Oh and to all the Canadians go to Canadian Tire. They should have it but it is not much cheaper.

We do have Wal-Mart too

[TRENT_G]

I ran Mobil 1 racing 4t that I had left over from my sport bike and my clutch started slipping right away. I ran it for two rides and same thing clutch was slipping when taking off and in rocky areas were you neeed to use your clutch and gas alot. I changed oil out to Rotella-t and it went away? I never had any problems with my clutch in my sport bike. Not sure what the difference is both are wet clutch set- up's

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil1_Racing_4T_10W-40.aspx



Originally posted by SSJEFF
Moblie one is not clutch friendly unless it is the motorcycle kind which I have never seen in a store. I saw some at the triumph dealership the other day and it was $9 a quart. It said it was for motorcycles and atv's on it though.

Rotella-t is a deisel oil. It is what we are running. We are buying buuy the gallon here in the states for $16us a gallon for the synthetic. i think the regular is $9us a gallon.

[ojcool]

Originally posted by SSJEFF
the more people I talk to that run KTM's the more I hear that the KTM race teams run rotella-t. I talked to a guy at a race sunday that has a KTM quad and that what he is running also. I ran it in mine for the first time during the race and it did fine.

It prob is fine. Over time if guys are getting bikes with alot of hours on them running the Rotella-t I may switch to it. Just going to give it some time.

[mikebell72]

ok somebody do a dyno test to see which oil makes more power on a average say 10 dyno runs each and maybe even hotlap them to which gets rid of the heat????????????

[ojcool]

Wow, I had no idea when I started this thread that it would become so popular, and controversial. Only seen one person post up any problems after switching to Rotella (the ring guy). So It appears that it is more than fine to run it.

[brhaminator]

beacon grease.

[SSJEFF]

I thought I had a problem when my clutch went out but I think it was low on oil, I did not put enough in it. the site glass is tricky. I am now running the synthetic in both my motorcycles and my 525. I am going to switch the 525 over to regular rotella-t after another oil change.

[sheriff525]

Is this the oil that i can use?