440 kit on pump gas??

[Cool Guy07400EX]

Is there a way to run a 440 kit on pump gas? I know CT makes a 440 kit that runs on pump gas but it cost wayyyyy to much. Is there a cheaper but still reliable way? :confused:
Thanks for any help!!

[TRXRacer1]

Sure, go 10:1 and take it easy.

[dudeman_29]

The size of the bore makes no difference of what octane you need to run. The compression ratio is why a higher octane rating is needed.

[Cool Guy07400EX]

Originally posted by dudeman_29
The size of the bore makes no difference of what octane you need to run. The compression ratio is why a higher octane rating is needed.

I know that but dont you need a higher compression with a bigger bore??

[red_rider_069]

Originally posted by Cool Guy07400EX
I know that but dont you need a higher compression with a bigger bore?? not usually.. i run mine with a mix of 91 pump and 110 jet fuel about 50/50 but i run mine off premium all the time.. idk its just recomened.. but the manufacture says minumi\un of 91+ should be used.. mines 12.5:1 compression it runs fine.. jsut blew the piston casue i was running on low oil :S noyt fun.. runs great on 91+ though..

[Cool Guy07400EX]

hmmm well i dont really want to use any race gas because of the price...unless you guys know where to get it cheap?

[dudeman_29]

I buy mine from torco but they are about an hour from me. However there is no such thing as cheap 110. If you want to use pump gas go with a 416 or 426 and keep the ratio low.

[bearair]

What the heck is 110 jet fuel? Jet's burn kerosene not gasoline.

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by dudeman_29
The size of the bore makes no difference of what octane you need to run. The compression ratio is why a higher octane rating is needed. Heat and pressure is what causes detonation so the added heat of a 440 can without a doubt make a difference in what octane he's going to need.

[brokenmike]

My 440 is 11:1 and it pings on hard acceleration with 93 octane, so I just go 50/50 with 93 and 112. My quad has been togeather for 5 years with no problems.

[Cool Guy07400EX]

Alright well i think im going to do the 50/50 thing with 12.5:1 compression and a 440 big bore using 91 octane and 112. the reason for the 91 is because i can get it from gas stations...for some reason there is not a single gas station out here with 93 octane but there is a gas station with pump race fuel hehe :D its right next to a drag strip so thats pretty cool...don't have to order it now :]

Thanks guys!

[my88r]

that's the reason why my rebuild i stayed on stock compression. also i wanted to stay reliable and the nearest race gas is 30 miles away.:mad:

[dudeman_29]

Originally posted by TRXRacer1
Heat and pressure is what causes detonation so the added heat of a 440 can without a doubt make a difference in what octane he's going to need.

Correct however the bore size alone means nothing at all. I didn't go to MMI but all I know is on our dirt late models we have never looked at the ci to choose a fuel. We do look at the compression. Torco doesn't give me anything or even a price break but their sight has some good info on it take a look at it. I went to a class they put on last year that was only about fuels and learned a lot. I'm also going to FL to another fuel class as I'll be down there for a tire tech class.

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by dudeman_29
however the bore size alone means nothing at all. Incorrect, when you add 40 more cc's, especially on an air cooled engine, you do need to think about added heat. Heat is the number 1 issue with pre-ignition. If we were talking about standard overbore sizes then yes, it barely factors but an 11:1 440 though will produce more heat then say an 11:1 416.

[dudeman_29]

What is the running temp on a 440? Like I said I didn't go to school to work on ATV's I only went to learn about fuels. Long story short if you can find a 440 kit with a lower compression you might get away with running a lower octane. If there is E85 in your area look into that there was a post on here about running E85 in an ATV. E85 has an octane raiting of 100-106 so this might be an option for you also.

[2muchquad]

Im gonna be doing a 440 when its time for a rebuild but im gonna go the conservative 11 to 1 route.Race fuel is out of the question and with 93oct being almost $3.60 a gal here,thats bad enough.Add in the added stress on the rod and bottomend assembly from high compression,its just not worth it imo for what i do.Racers that get free parts then go ahead,but for the trouble of 12.5 to 1 ,the extra performance isnt mandatory.Besides a 440 on 11 to 1 with a cam and exhaust and a fcr carb should run pretty strong if built right.Mine will,because im doing it myself to make sure the job gets done right:D

[Cool Guy07400EX]

Ok so then what would be the diffrence between the 11:1 compression and the 12:1? besides the extra power gains.

[2muchquad]

Generally speaking .compression is where you make your power,just look at the extra high comp 4 fiddy with 14 to 1 compression!.But race gas is needed for stuff like that.11 to 1 is fine for pump fuel.There may not be much difference in performance between 11 to 1 and 12 to 1.Remember its not just compression that dictates how a motor will run but the sum of all the parts and how they will compliment the system in the end.Having a bunch of bolt on parts wont mean jack if they are the wrong parts or some mismatched stuff thrown together.

[Cool Guy07400EX]

Okay well then i think like the 11:1 just because of the fact that it can run on pump gas :D

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by Cool Guy07400EX
Okay well then i think like the 11:1 just because of the fact that it can run on pump gas :D I can get my 10:1 416 to ping on pump gas if I ride it hard enough. I wouldn't bank on being safe with an 11:1 440. Research the area for race fuel just in case.

[Ruby Soho]

Originally posted by TRXRacer1
I can get my 10:1 416 to ping on pump gas if I ride it hard enough. I wouldn't bank on being safe with an 11:1 440. Research the area for race fuel just in case.

i run my 11:1 440 on pump. i have been for over a year. no problems what-so-ever. runs great, alittle hot but then again i dont rev the chit out of it, i keep it some what low

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by Ruby Soho
i run my 11:1 440 on pump. i have been for over a year. no problems what-so-ever. runs great, alittle hot but then again i dont rev the chit out of it, i keep it some what low I don't know if I rev the chit out of mine either but it's not uncommon for us to be out riding hard for a couple hours before we break. That can make any machine get hot. It's amazingly better now that I'm on E85!

[Ruby Soho]

mine does get hot, but i keep moving for the most part, and thats the best thing you can do for an air cooled engine.

ive ridden for hours in 95 degree weather and never had a single problem.

not saying to not run cleaner fuel but pump is fine

[Cool Guy07400EX]

Well cant you run a cooler spark plug and is there any aftermarket coolers or something? i know you can get small fans and attach them to the frame but is there any other way to cool it down?:macho

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by Cool Guy07400EX
Well cant you run a cooler spark plug and is there any aftermarket coolers or something? i know you can get small fans and attach them to the frame but is there any other way to cool it down?:macho What my 400 needs is for me to go on a diet :D .........but for now E85 is it's savior. In all seriousness though you should be fine, IMO it's just on the edge where you'll have to watch it. You can make a 12.5:1 work in a 440 so it's not like you're heading into a bad situation.

What I would do is get the oversized sleeve, a Cometic 440 gasket kit, re-anchor your head studs by installing inserts in your cylinder, have a JE 10.8:1 88.5mm piston fitted and call it a day. You'll be at a 430 instead of a 435 (440 kits are 435cc) and you'll have room for another overbore if needed later. I doubt you'll feel a difference between 5cc and it's free insurance. You can certainly run that cooler plug too, it won't hurt a thing and might help a little.

[2muchquad]

I usually dont say too much as far as the "race gas" debate but a lot of people seem to think 110 octane is need for 12 to 1 etc.The actual compression ratio is gonna vary depending on the cam,there is this thing called "valve overlap" that does figure into the equation.On top of that barometric pressure and a slew of other things figure in the mix.So and so may need race gas while somebody else wont in another part of the counrty with identical set ups.I personally run 13to1 in my yzf with 93oct but its liquid cooled so yada yada;)

[red_rider_069]

Originally posted by bearair
What the heck is 110 jet fuel? Jet's burn kerosene not gasoline.

no way.. it its gasoline..

[Bounce400ex]

www.diablofuels.com

[Cool Guy07400EX]

Originally posted by TRXRacer1
What I would do is get the oversized sleeve, a Cometic 440 gasket kit, re-anchor your head studs by installing inserts in your cylinder, have a JE 10.8:1 88.5mm piston fitted and call it a day. You'll be at a 430 instead of a 435 (440 kits are 435cc) and you'll have room for another overbore if needed later. I doubt you'll feel a difference between 5cc and it's free insurance. You can certainly run that cooler plug too, it won't hurt a thing and might help a little.

I do like that idea but how would it run with the 10.8:1 compression and about whats the price for all that? cause i really like that idea alot...ive been debating between a 426 or a 440 but now i can have something inbetween :D hehe.:devil:

and i know i can run the cooler plug but im not replacing it until i need to.

[bigcountry8406]

go with a 416 if you go 440 whith low compression you defeating the purpose.

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by Cool Guy07400EX
I do like that idea but how would it run with the 10.8:1 compression and about whats the price for all that? cause i really like that idea alot...ive been debating between a 426 or a 440 but now i can have something inbetween :D hehe.:devil:

and i know i can run the cooler plug but im not replacing it until i need to. You should be in the $500 range for everything I listed. You'll want your machinist to install the sleeve, bore for the piston and install the larger inserts for your head studs. You're getting big enough with a 430 to really need a bigger carb like a 450r one and porting would be a nice thing too.

[red_rider_069]

Originally posted by TRXRacer1
You should be in the $500 range for everything I listed. You'll want your machinist to install the sleeve, bore for the piston and install the larger inserts for your head studs. You're getting big enough with a 430 to really need a bigger carb like a 450r one and porting would be a nice thing too.
me and my friends bored mine out to a 440.. i thought it was easy.. seems to run better then other 440s.. gues s we jsut got lucky.. only messed up somthing cuz of low oil.. :S..

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by TRXRacer1
You should be in the $500 range for everything I listed. You'll want your machinist to install the sleeve, bore for the piston and install the larger inserts for your head studs. You're getting big enough with a 430 to really need a bigger carb like a 450r one and porting would be a nice thing too. I forgot to add that the $500 included a stg2 HC also.

[Cool Guy07400EX]

Originally posted by TRXRacer1
You should be in the $500 range for everything I listed. You'll want your machinist to install the sleeve, bore for the piston and install the larger inserts for your head studs. You're getting big enough with a 430 to really need a bigger carb like a 450r one and porting would be a nice thing too.

Thats not bad at all. Oh and i am getting a bigger carb for sure.


Originally posted by TRXRacer1
I forgot to add that the $500 included a stg2 HC also.

Thats even better!!

Can you buy that whole setup in like a package deal or something somewhere?

[bigcountry8406]

search online and find each part as cheap as u can then add it up then find a kit. You will find that usually kits dont save a dime unless they r skrewing u on shipping that means watchout 4 e-bay

[Cool Guy07400EX]

Originally posted by bigcountry8406
search online and find each part as cheap as u can then add it up then find a kit. You will find that usually kits dont save a dime unless they r skrewing u on shipping that means watchout 4 e-bay

Haha alright I'll do that. I notice that when you find something cheap the shipping costs alot almost every time! its dumb.

[bigcountry8406]

yea but if you got time you can save a dime

[Mitragorz]

Originally posted by red_rider_069
no way.. it its gasoline..

Jet fuel is NOT gasoline. What color is the stuff you're using?


Originally posted by 2muchquad
personally run 13to1 in my yzf

R1, R6, or 600R? I've got a 600R.

[Cool Guy07400EX]

Okay I have another question. What if i got the hot rods +4mm stroker crankshaft and the hot rods stroker piston? what would the diffrence be? like i know with that setup it would be 460cc but would that be alot more power and also would it run as cool as the 430 or like alot hotter?? I don't know much about strokers except for one thing and that is strokers produce more torque and bottom end than big bores. Right?