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View Full Version : False Neutral and 450 Shootout



ds450maniac
02-24-2008, 07:08 PM
Has anybody that has a ds experianced a false neutral yet? just wondering because I'm looking into getting a ds and racing it and in dirt wheels 450 shootout this month they said that the while they were riding it in a 20 MILE run it hit false neutral 3 times between 4th and 5th. And anybody that doesn't or hasn't read the new dirt wheels the results are below:
1.) KTM
2.)YFZ
3.)POLARIS MXR
4.)DS
5.)LTR
6.)TRX
7.)KFX

I was kinda shocked that the polaris beat the ds,but hey polaris isn't wait they used to be any more there moving up in the atv world. IDK just read what dirt wheels says in this shootout its intresting.

GE4x4
02-24-2008, 07:26 PM
ATVsport did there 450 shootout and the DS came in 2nd behind the KTM and just in front of the Outlaw. So shootouts are not gossipal.

450raider
02-24-2008, 07:37 PM
thats odd :huh ditwheels shootouts usually go

1yfz
2rap350
3rap250

10 all others :D

anyway i dont know anything about ds's or the false neutrals but for what its worth im mainly stressing that DW has no idea what they are talking about half the time.

ds450maniac
02-24-2008, 07:58 PM
ya I agree with you guys I just read it cause its some info, but I hate how they are always picking yamaha's it bugs me

kbass24emtp
02-24-2008, 08:31 PM
I can't wait to read it to see how they explain how the YFZ placed so high. I'll take the word of ATV Sport over Dirtwheels any day. What a joke.

rgasper33
02-24-2008, 08:43 PM
I think that the ktm, ds, and polaris are pretty much the top three. Its just dirt wheels has a love affair with yamaha. Raptor and YFZ NEVER lose a shootout no matter what. Might as well throw in the grizzly too. It is a Joke. Go ride the ktm, ds, polaris, and then yfz. yfz would be the last one youd buy, ill put money on that!!!

kbass24emtp
02-24-2008, 08:56 PM
I find it funny that there are hardly any mx riders in my area that ride the YFZ anymore. Just about everyone of them has switched over to the LTR. I think Dirtwheels should make their shootouts last for a whole racing season. Its hard for the YFZ to win when its not running, because its broke all the time.

ds450maniac
02-24-2008, 09:16 PM
I personally think that yamaha pays dirt wheels to say all of that stuff in thur magazine don't you guys? And boy to I need to subscribe to ATV Sport from what I'm hearing, I take it the editers are pretty straight forward and don't lie and aren't loyal to one brand? cause if not I'm subscribing,I'm already subscribed to dirt wheels and Quad but I don't like how dirt wheels always picks the yamaha's. And from you guy's stand point, which is the best 450 to stat out racing on cause I'm getting a 450 in the summer and I have my choices down to the DS,LTR,maybe a polaris mxr or 525 or either of the KTM Kwads. Also can you race a 525 in a 450 race. Hope to hear so more responses soon and thanx

atvrider23054
02-25-2008, 10:42 AM
this shootout actually looks right i have ridden all these quads but the ds and thats about my line up plus i saw thw ds in person and it looks prettys cheezy and looks like a waste the ktm is lighter than the ds and the ds wasted so much time and was braging about it being the lightest witch it isnt so my line up would be the same and the alumium frame has no benifit to this quad it only makes it worse

Evasiveone
02-25-2008, 10:46 AM
In the GNCC the current cc limit is 525 cc and the KTM powered machines are 510 cc. So yes you can run the 525 KTM/Outlaw in them. Next year the pro level, Xc1 and Xc2 will be limiting the cc's to 450 cc. So unless your name is Ballance or Borich you can still run the 525 next year to.

Most local series do not have a cc limit on them, but it will be best to check your local racing rules.

ds450maniac
02-25-2008, 01:41 PM
thanx for the replys guys!!! keep um comin:D

ThePhantomRider
02-25-2008, 01:42 PM
Wow....you think that the shootouts are accurate because you have ridden all the quads except the DS, then make haphazard and ignorant statements to back up your claim is a joke.

First of all...."It looks prettys cheezy.."

Because we know looks win races....

Then you follow with..."the ktm is lighter than the ds and the ds wasted so much time and was bragging about it being the lightest with it isnt.."

Can-Am made their weight claim against the available 450's....KTM was not available and I can tell you this, I would rather take a big hit on the DS than a KTM, not saying the KTM is weak, but that DS frame is IMO the strongest stock frame ever built for a sport ATV....

I bet you'd have laughed the first time someone in auto racing decided to use carbon composite materials instead of steel tubing when building an Indy Car....

Sometimes the uninformed make the unintelligent look bad.....

TPR



Originally posted by atvrider23054
this shootout actually looks right i have ridden all these quads but the ds and thats about my line up plus i saw thw ds in person and it looks prettys cheezy and looks like a waste the ktm is lighter than the ds and the ds wasted so much time and was braging about it being the lightest witch it isnt so my line up would be the same and the alumium frame has no benifit to this quad it only makes it worse

ds450maniac
02-25-2008, 01:48 PM
Nice PhantomRider you put him in his place lol i didn't feel like it. I love how the ds looks and I love Rotax engines thur fast. And call me stupid or what not but what the heck does IMO mean? I'm sure its something simple but idk hahaha.:confused:

ThePhantomRider
02-25-2008, 01:57 PM
LOL, IMO is short for I my opinion....IMHO adds honest to the mix....

I'm like you though a lot of abbreviations make me go....HUH???

By the way, back on topic, I had my father in law, who has engineered and built INDY, NASCAR, NHRA and SCCA race cars going back to the 60's and he looked at the DS frame in comparison to all the others and said if he were to start with a frame, it would be the DS, not just for the use of aluminum, but especially in how the geometry and triangulation was done to handle all the load forces one would experience.


TPR

ds450maniac
02-25-2008, 07:53 PM
thanx for info again PhantomRider

ds450maniac
02-25-2008, 07:54 PM
thanx for info again PhantomRider

bwamos
02-26-2008, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
LOL, IMO is short for I my opinion....IMHO adds honest to the mix....


IMO = In my opinion. Forgot the "n" ;)

I always use IMHO as "In my humble opinion,".

ThePhantomRider
02-26-2008, 12:38 PM
Humble is good too.....


TPR

RosquistRacer39
02-26-2008, 07:36 PM
Im not saying the DS's frame isn't strong but at this weekends worcs race I saw both fredericks and smiths bikes. They looked cool but during the pro production race both bikes were in and out of the pits more than any other. Smiths bike was going around the track sounding like crap. Eventually he quit. I don't know what the problem was, plus it just didn't seem like the ds had the power of the other bikes. Jumps that riders on yfzs and 450rs even polaris's were clearing with ease the guys on the can ams were having to seat bounce. That could be because of the lack of power down low but I don't know. The frames look good, but the motor is the only thing I'm worried about. And with the way fredericks and smith were in and out of the pits it doesn't inspire confidence. I can see why no one other than the factory supported guys were racing them.

ds450maniac
02-26-2008, 07:56 PM
You have a point Racer39 and I've been hearing about the problems to but I'm gonna keep looking into the ds and its performance and racing stats and stuff before I'll buy one. Right now I have the DS,LTR,KTM and the polaris quads on my want list so I keep up with all of them. once again thanx for the info and what a hell of a come back from frederick this weekend huh? I read it and i thought it was amazing he won good for him and can-am though.

RosquistRacer39
02-26-2008, 08:38 PM
Yea it was a amazing race. When I was watching eichner on saturday I thought there was no way anyone was going to beat him. He looked fast. But fredericks put down the fast times when it counted. Im glad he won in his home state in front of his fans. He had a lot of support there. And as brutal as the track got, Ill tell you thats quite an accomplishment to come from as far back as he did.

nvrpmx
02-26-2008, 08:46 PM
you mean they were in and out of the pits more than anyone else and the can-ams still won.So i guess that sound of crap you heard was from the quads they were passing ?

jeepeater347
02-27-2008, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by nvrpmx
you mean they were in and out of the pits more than anyone else and the can-ams still won.So i guess that sound of crap you heard was from the quads they were passing ?

This is a good point they must have been in the pits for very minor stuff or they just have that much more motor make up all the extra time.

ThePhantomRider
02-27-2008, 01:13 PM
Look the one thing I know about all the DS teams is that they are dialing in their power level and delivery.

I know of guys that were riding the DS with their mild power package, about 5-10 HP less than their counterparts and these guys would go back and forth between their old race bikes with more power and the DS with a little less and they would put down consistently faster lap times on the DS.

They have been tinkering between 60-70 HP and want the right combination of power, delivery and durability.

This is just the fine tuning stage, and Can-Am wants to be sure that everything is right on the money.


TPR

ds450maniac
02-27-2008, 02:54 PM
Ya da man TPR you sure seem to know alot about the ds's and I know if I ever need to ask any more questions about the ds you'll end up answering them lol. And it never even came to me that they were going back to the pits more than any one else because they are tuning the bikes. But boy does it help, I read that this weekend frederick made up a 4-5 min gap alway from the leader and that to me is amazing it really shows you that the ds's Rotax engines are the best out there. I can't wait till the mx season starts up with the ds's cause I think that can-am has a hell of a team and if they don't win every race I'll be supprised. I think that can-am has potential to be the best quad ever made, with just a little more testing and racing I think that people will see that. talk to you guys later and keep them replys coming because this is getting to be a pretty intresting thread.

ds450maniac
02-27-2008, 02:56 PM
Ya da man TPR you sure seem to know alot about the ds's and I know if I ever need to ask any more questions about the ds you'll end up answering them lol. And it never even came to me that they were going back to the pits more than any one else because they are tuning the bikes. But boy does it help, I read that this weekend frederick made up a 4-5 min gap alway from the leader and that to me is amazing it really shows you that the ds's Rotax engines are the best out there. I can't wait till the mx season starts up with the ds's cause I think that can-am has a hell of a team and if they don't win every race I'll be supprised. I think that can-am has potential to be the best quad ever made, with just a little more testing and racing I think that people will see that. talk to you guys later and keep them replys coming because this is getting to be a pretty intresting thread.:macho

CANAMDS450
02-27-2008, 05:25 PM
its not polaris that is moving up. its polaris giving up on trying to build a racing engine that would last longer than the time it took to roll them off the showroom floor and putting a real engine in there atv. by real i mean ktm powerplants as for the rest of the machines they make a good door stop

ds450maniac
02-27-2008, 08:48 PM
good point canamds450 and I'm not hating on polaris or anything cause I'm considering getting one, but ya I thought the same thing when polaris started using the ktm engines, but I must say that the polaris and ktm quads are pretty flippin sweet lol and have amazing motors,but I think that can-am has the best engines ever and thats why the ds is at the top of my list.

markeg192
02-27-2008, 11:13 PM
All I know is I'm very happy with my DS at this point. With the lid removed and anLRD slip on (pink wire still not cut) I think it revs faster and has more torque than my YFZ. I can't believe power is an issue with this quad.

jeepeater347
02-28-2008, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by markeg192
All I know is I'm very happy with my DS at this point. With the lid removed and anLRD slip on (pink wire still not cut) I think it revs faster and has more torque than my YFZ. I can't believe power is an issue with this quad.

Don't you think with your mods you are running pretty lean with out cutting the pink wire?

ds450maniac
02-28-2008, 01:33 PM
I've been hearing similar things like what your saying Markeg. I hear that what ever you add to the ds it reacts to it in a huge way and thats a great sign. IMO Can-am makes the best engine other than KTM, but still I think the ds motor has more potential than the KTM'S does,but then IDK cause I own neither one of these quads but I will own 1 of them this summer sometime.

NJ450rider
02-29-2008, 08:00 AM
Dirt wheels put the yfz second what a shock. I figured they would put it first. LOL I wouldnt believe what they put for a second. This is my rating for the 450's as far as what ive rode or looked at.

Ktm450xc
Can am ds450
Kawi kfx450
polaris mxr450
honda 450r
yamaha yfz
suzuki ltr450

Of course thats just my personal opinion so far. Once theres more long term results like the end of this years atva/wpsa/gncc and local races ill change my list. ATVsports list is extremely unbiased and honest and id use that as a guide for buying a new 450!

markeg192
02-29-2008, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by jeepeater347
Don't you think with your mods you are running pretty lean with out cutting the pink wire?

Not at all. It runs so well I'm reluctant to make changes. It seems really quick yet really smooth. There's so much low end power and it hits the rev limiter in higher gears very fast. I can't wait to line up with some other 450's.

450raider
02-29-2008, 01:12 PM
wow i just sat and read this crappy article at walmart and heres pretty much what it said and thats 5 min. ill never get back so lets see, the hon and kaw are cramped and junk, the ds has a faulty tran, and the zuke and pol have small tires... gotcha :rolleyes:, but you could litterally since the fear from DW of yamahas pimphand as they put the perfect yfz in 2nd, but the ktm does have a stiff thottle!!

ds450maniac
02-29-2008, 01:55 PM
thanx guys keep um comin

RosquistRacer39
03-02-2008, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by nvrpmx
you mean they were in and out of the pits more than anyone else and the can-ams still won.So i guess that sound of crap you heard was from the quads they were passing ?

No this was during saturdays races. Not the main on Sunday. They must have figured out what was wrong, cause on Saturday they weren't with it. And far as power wise like I said earlier, they don't seem to have the most power from what I seen, but if they have a smooth delivery that would have helped a ton in a race like that one. I know on my yfz it sucked, because of the sand whoops around the whole track that would swallow your quad. Im not even saying that I think yamahas better cause I ride one and can attest that the suspension geometry sucks on that bike. It is a bike that will wear you out fast.

But a question for ds450maniac what do you plan to race with it mx or xc?

ds450maniac
03-02-2008, 05:22 PM
I plan on racing mx and arenacross in the 09 season

ds450maniac
03-02-2008, 05:23 PM
I plan on racing mx and arenacross in the 09 season

RosquistRacer39
03-02-2008, 05:27 PM
Do you have a ton of cash to throw at the bike after you buy it?
If not it wouldn't hurt to look at the ltr. I have heard the 08s are supposed to have the tranny issues fixed and for mx seem to be the best bang for your buck.

ds450maniac
03-02-2008, 05:49 PM
No I really don't plan to buy anything for it exept what I need to race which would be the tether and nerf bars and number plates. I was looking into the LTR but lost intrest because I like the DS so much. Like I ssid in my other posts above, I have the KTM and Polaris quads, the DS and the LTR in consideration. Ya the LTR comes more race ready then all of them I think and the LTR is 49" stock and thats a plus, but I heard that the suspension still sucks but its a lot better than the 06 and 07. But I could get the shocks set to my weight any how, so the suspension isn't a big deal to me. I also heard that the changed stuff in the motor so the trannt shouldn't wine any more and so far I haven't read any in the LTR forum yet so the LTR is a possibility for me and the 08 alot faster and you can't forget that Suzuki has the best mx team ever. I'm still undecided on which one to get but I'll eventually make up my mind lol

RosquistRacer39
03-02-2008, 06:10 PM
Yea it sucks that there are so many good bikes out anymore and every year they get better and better. So anything you buy this year will be outdated next year so no matter what you buy it loses a grand in value as soon as you leave the dealer. Wait I guess this is a good thing:huh

spanky101
03-02-2008, 07:19 PM
there are so many factors into racing and choosing a new bike anymore its an extremely difficult choice! Its great for the industry forcing all the companys to make the bikes better and better each year!

ds450maniac
03-02-2008, 07:48 PM
Ya tell me about it, its so hard to choose between 7 450's, but I love it. I'm hooked on the ds though it is state of the art and offers alot of things that the other 450's don't and the Rotax engines are amazing. The way I think about it is that Can-Am started creating the DS 7 years ago and since then look what came out, the YFZ,KFX,LTR&TRX and Can-Am just kept getting idea's from the top 4 company's and now the Ds is a threat to them all. I believe that he DS's will be on top of the podium alot this season and all the seasons to come. I really think that Can-Am did there homework big time when they made the DS and I think its an amazing machine and I hope that it will make the other company's step their 450's up to the next level, but we'll have to wait and see:rolleyes: :D. I might end up waiting till the 09 DS's come out and get on of those but idk yet. I have my choices down to a LTR, DS and MXR because I'm gonna start racing MX in the 09 season hopefully and I feel those are the right quads for me and I like um.

ds450maniac
03-02-2008, 07:48 PM
Ya tell me about it, its so hard to choose between 7 450's, but I love it. I'm hooked on the ds though it is state of the art and offers alot of things that the other 450's don't and the Rotax engines are amazing. The way I think about it is that Can-Am started creating the DS 7 years ago and since then look what came out, the YFZ,KFX,LTR&TRX and Can-Am just kept getting idea's from the top 4 company's and now the Ds is a threat to them all. I believe that he DS's will be on top of the podium alot this season and all the seasons to come. I really think that Can-Am did there homework big time when they made the DS and I think its an amazing machine and I hope that it will make the other company's step their 450's up to the next level, but we'll have to wait and see:rolleyes: :D. I might end up waiting till the 09 DS's come out and get on of those but idk yet. I have my choices down to a LTR, DS and MXR because I'm gonna start racing MX in the 09 season hopefully and I feel those are the right quads for me and I like um. Later