Wide Band O2 Sensor Install - Almost time to start TUNING!!

[08400EX]

I had planned to install a Wide Band O2 Sensor when I got my new Yoshi Full system. Since it came in on Monday I thought now was the perfect time to get started. I am going to do some tuning and get it perfectly dialed in using one of my Wide Band Tuners. Heck for the price of the exhaust I might as well get the most possible out of it. Plus having WBO2 capabilities will help with tuning any future mods.

So I fired up the TIG today and welded on a stainless steel fitting for the Wide Band O2 sensor in the pipe just before it enters the Cannister. I wanted to put it there because it is the largest diameter pipe section. Plus I could put it in an "eddy spot" to negate any negative impacts from the sensor obstructing exhaust flow. I also had to build up the welds so the fitting would sit higher, again to eliminate obstructions as much as possible. I feel this is very important on a small displacement motor like a Quad/Bike.

Will do some tuning runs in the next day or so when it warms up a little and post back some results.

If you are unfamiliar with tuning with a Wide Band Tuner, take a few minutes and read this article..
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2006/06/Innovate/index.php


Here are some pics..

[08400EX]

With WBO2 Sensor Installed...

[08400EX]

Inside showing minimal obstruction...

[08400EX]

With Sensor "plug" installed when not using the WBO2 Sensor...

[08400EX]

With Cannister installed ready for business...

[08400EX]

Last one for now..

[born2ride14]

and what does this thing do?

SO what exactly is this supposed to do? I never saw it before.

[08400EX]

Please tell me you guys are kidding around with me ??? :)

Ok, in case you are not... start here for more info. Link also added to the original post.

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2006/06/Innovate/index.php

In a "nutshell"...

A Wide Band O2 Sensor and a Digital Tuner can give me real time Air Fuel Ratio Data at various rpms and if I install a MAP sensor it can give me the info at various engine load levels.

I can go out and do wide open runs, or ride normally. come back plug the tuner into a computer, download the information and even play it back and see exactly what my air/fuel ratio is at different RPMS and engine loads.

Using this information I can tune my carb (and timing if I go that far) to get everything exactly perfect to make the most power possible.

Plus I can see the air/fuel ratio in real time as I ride and see where I need to make changes.

Here is some sample screens of some of the more simple info you can get just from riding your quad . These are automotive screenshots, but the data you can gather is the same...

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/images/logworks_graph.jpg

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/images/logworks_graphic.jpg

You can even play back your tuning rides and see the engine info on virtual guages..

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/images/logworks_playback.jpg

[xcracer416]

im a master certified ASE technician, I can go ahead and tell you your wasting your time on the o2 sensor. its a single cylinder, your plug should tell you exactly what your graphs do. jet that thing according to your elevation and air temp, then fine tune it from there. to me you wasted great money that could have been used on better mods. My 2 cents, but opinions are like.......well you know the rest.

[08400EX]

Originally posted by xcracer416
im a master certified ASE technician, I can go ahead and tell you your wasting your time on the o2 sensor. its a single cylinder, your plug should tell you exactly what your graphs do. jet that thing according to your elevation and air temp, then fine tune it from there. to me you wasted great money that could have been used on better mods. My 2 cents, but opinions are like.......well you know the rest.

I appreciate your feedback. But it didn't cost me a dime. I design and manufacture supercharger kits and have lots of extra tuners and sensors just laying around. I can also do a lot more accurate tuning this way and it saves a LOT of time, which is more valuable in the long run than $30-40 for a spare WBO2. I know a lot of the older ASE guys that are my friends that don't like to embrace newer technology (not meaning you). But once I get them to do it they are amazed how much time they can save and how much of a better job they can do.

Reading a spark plug is cool, but trying to do a repeatable accurate chop test and reading a spark plug in 500RPM increments is darn near impossible and would take days. I can do that to a higher degree of acuracy in 1-3 minutes...

PLUS, it is a heck of lot more fun and less cylinder burns on my hands :-)

[boosted3g]

Try tuning a plug with u4 or any oxygetated fuel and see how close you get. Ive used the innovative unit in the past and it is a great tuning tool. Set it up for to read in lamba and pour in whatever you want. Where did you get it and how much do they run. I know the NTK sensors have come way down in price since the bosch 5 wires came out. Which does this use or can it read both.

[Pipeless416]

very cool idea. i know the topic of a WBO2 sensor was discussed on here a while back, but nobody had the resources to attempt it. i'm sure GPracer2500 would really like to see this thread.. i sure wish i could TIG weld that well. i'm in a fabrication class and now i need to make a powdercoated steel airbox because i can't tig weld good enough to use aluminum, and the aluminum MIG welder won't work :grr:

[boosted3g]

You got your response in while i was typing my reply. Any chance you can throw a kit together for me. Im have a set of dynapacks at my disposal but this is so much better than going everytime i make a modification or the weather changes. I dont trust the sampling tube i have anyways, i should just weld a bung in.

[08400EX]

Originally posted by boosted3g
Try tuning a plug with u4 or any oxygetated fuel and see how close you get. Ive used the innovative unit in the past and it is a great tuning tool. Set it up for to read in lamba and pour in whatever you want. Where did you get it and how much do they run. I know the NTK sensors have come way down in price since the bosch 5 wires came out. Which does this use or can it read both.

I have few different Tuners, some are custom made for me and specific to the cars I deal with.. those are nuts, you have the option to input the A/F ratio you want at any RPM/Engine Load for idle, cruise and WOT, then go drive the car and it tunes itself. Then you download the file, burn an Eprom , plug in it and your done.

Anyway, the one I will be using for the 400 is one of my older Innovate Motorsports LM-1 Tuners. It is simple, small, and great for this type of appliation. Plus it is inexpensive and if it accidently falls off on test runs I won't cry about it :-) I am also a dealer for all the Innovate Products so I get pretty good deals on their stuff. The actual Wide Band O2 sensors I use are the standard Bosch units, I get them wholesale thru my German parts wholesalers for around $40 each. I haven't checked into the NTK sensors, but thanks fo rthe tip, I will check those out.

Fun stuff !!

[08400EX]

Originally posted by Pipeless416
very cool idea. i know the topic of a WBO2 sensor was discussed on here a while back, but nobody had the resources to attempt it. i'm sure GPracer2500 would really like to see this thread.. i sure wish i could TIG weld that well. i'm in a fabrication class and now i need to make a powdercoated steel airbox because i can't tig weld good enough to use aluminum, and the aluminum MIG welder won't work :grr:

Hi Mike,

Just fun stuff for a fun hobby. Keep at the TIG, the only way to get good is to do it.

I appreciate your comment about the welding, but trust me I very rarely TIG stainless and it doesn't look as good in person. Now aluminum is a different story, that is all I usually do. If you had seen me struggling with the SS today you would have laughed!

[08400EX]

Originally posted by boosted3g
You got your response in while i was typing my reply. Any chance you can throw a kit together for me. Im have a set of dynapacks at my disposal but this is so much better than going everytime i make a modification or the weather changes. I dont trust the sampling tube i have anyways, i should just weld a bung in.

Looks like the same thing happened to me concering the reply.

I would be glad to help you with anything. I even have a pile of sensors around that were only used one day or 2. On some of my high end projects I always use a brand new sensor for each tuning session. I can make you a deal on any of those to help out. BTW, never pay those $20 prices for Stainless O2 bungs that people charge. Go to a hardware store and get a stainless M18 1.5 pitch bolt for $3-5 :-)

Speaking of sampling tube, have you seen or tried the Innovate Venturi unit. It is simple and the standard WBs screw right into it. I have had great sucess with it, it is even more accurate and dependable that the sniffers on the Dynojets we use.

Here is a pic and a link....

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16141&cat=250&page=2

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/product_image.php?imageid=32

[JOEX]

Someone else did this mod awhile back... 1-2 years ago maybe?

I don't remember the details but they used a Powerbomb header and put the sensor in the 'bomb' section of the pipe.

Great mod if it's accurate:cool:

[08400EX]

Originally posted by JOEX
Someone else did this mod awhile back... 1-2 years ago maybe?

I don't remember the details but they used a Powerbomb header and put the sensor in the 'bomb' section of the pipe.

Great mod if it's accurate:cool:

I was always worried that putting one in the smaller pipes (even in a bomb section) that would partially block airflow and therefore decrease performance when tuning. Then when you removed the sensor your mixture would change and therefore not have accurate final results. This was one of the reasons I was waiting for the Yoshi with it's 54mm pipe diameter where it goes into the can.

Oh, I know it will be much more accurate than all those shades of "tan" ;)

[JOEX]

Originally posted by 08400EX
I was always worried that putting one in the smaller pipes (even in a bomb section) that would partially block airflow and therefore decrease performance when tuning. Then when you removed the sensor your mixture would change and therefore not have accurate final results. This was one of the reasons I was waiting for the Yoshi with it's 54mm pipe diameter where it goes into the can.

Oh, I know it will be much more accurate than all those shades of "tan" ;)
It seems the sensor used in the one I saw was smaller but I could be wrong:p It was quite awhile ago.

This mod is above my knowledge so all I can do is take someones word for it's accuracy;) Not saying I doubt it's accurate, I just don't know enough about it.:)

[NJ450rider]

Its a lil over kill for a small single cylinder engine id say. But the accuracy will be 99.9% if your good at tunning reading a wideband o2. Are you just gonna tune reading the air fuel ratio per 500 rpm increments?(sp?)

I would think that it would be really simple since a 400ex idles at 1400 rpm +/- 100 rpm. At idle you could read what the air fuel is and know if the pilot was lean or rich. After that would be a tiny bit more involved but not to much.

Just a lil FYI the yosh/suzuki team tunes there ltr450's with a wide band 02 system. they have headpipes with an o2 sensor about 3/4 of the way before the muffler. they also have preset maps with spark/fuel curves and timing settings for every track theyve ever raced. All they do is upload the data into the atvs cdi and fine tune from there. Isnt EFI great?!

[08400EX]

Originally posted by NJ450rider
Its a lil over kill for a small single cylinder engine id say. But the accuracy will be 99.9% if your good at tunning reading a wideband o2. Are you just gonna tune reading the air fuel ratio per 500 rpm increments?(sp?)

I would think that it would be really simple since a 400ex idles at 1400 rpm +/- 100 rpm. At idle you could read what the air fuel is and know if the pilot was lean or rich. After that would be a tiny bit more involved but not to much.

Just a lil FYI the yosh/suzuki team tunes there ltr450's with a wide band 02 system. they have headpipes with an o2 sensor about 3/4 of the way before the muffler. they also have preset maps with spark/fuel curves and timing settings for every track theyve ever raced. All they do is upload the data into the atvs cdi and fine tune from there. Isnt EFI great?!

I was just using the 500RPM increments as simple example of how much work it would be to do chop tests and SP readings on something with even that wide of a resolution.

Look at the attached graph for a sample of a very simple 3 seconds of data from a pretty simple tuners data logging.....obviously this was FI and yes it is great!. But if you look at some of the RPM increments they are as low as 2 or 3 RPMs. This sampling was time based vs RPM based. The amount of data you can get is staggering and you really can't use it at this resolution with a carb'd system, but it does give you insight once you get a grasp of it. Just as an FYI, all this data came from a car that was built in 1984-86 and this was never possible with out a totally uniquie one off tuner made for just this car within the last 2 years.

I am not surprised any Factory team uses a WBO2, I would be surprised if they didn't. BUT I am still not quite comfortable with an O2 sensor in such a small pipe. However, I pride myself in harnessing and managing airflow to the best it can be in and out of the engines I do. In reality I do not have enough experience with small engines as the bike teams so I would defer to those experts on that... but I am stubborn and would find another way :-)

Still no matter how it's done, it is FUN!!

[imc188222]

Great thread, I was just getting ready to search for this sort of info when it popped to the top! I too am a ASE certified master tech but I will have to disagree with the first guy. I have been wanting to do this to my 400 for a while. This is my kind of tuning, reading plugs is a little to old school for me!

[08400EX]

Originally posted by imc188222
Great thread, I was just getting ready to search for this sort of info when it popped to the top! I too am a ASE certified master tech but I will have to disagree with the first guy. I have been wanting to do this to my 400 for a while. This is my kind of tuning, reading plugs is a little to old school for me!

Glad you found the thread!

One of the fun spinoffs to tuning like this and getting all the acurate data is... I can easily prove once and for all the Uni Filter outflows a K&N :-)

Way to simple, tune the bike perfectly, then swap to a K&N and see if the A/F ratio goes up or down and exactly where at does it at..or not :-)

Digital Data doesn't trash talk or BS. :devil:

[Pipeless416]

Originally posted by 08400EX
Hi Mike,

Just fun stuff for a fun hobby. Keep at the TIG, the only way to get good is to do it.

I appreciate your comment about the welding, but trust me I very rarely TIG stainless and it doesn't look as good in person. Now aluminum is a different story, that is all I usually do. If you had seen me struggling with the SS today you would have laughed!

lol i have managed to use a TIG welder as a plasma cutter! i've been practicing and now i can run a bead and give it that "roll of dimes" look, but joining two pieces is a different story.. for now. anyway, i went and looked up some of the concepts of a WBO2 sensor and it really seems like with the knowledge needed to use it, it would definitely be worth it. just out of curiosity, is this limited to 4 stroke engines?

[07trx400ex]

no, this is not limited to 4strokes, it is not normally used on small engines, every new car sold in the us should have an 02 sensor on it, (they can be very annoying causing the service engine code to come on when using turboback exhausts) sidenote

but to answer the question they have their roots in automobiles mainly as an emmissions thing but can also be useful for tuning if you know how(which i do not at this point)

[440challenger]

Nice to see someone doing soemthing different. Innovative is awesome. I used the LM-1 to tune my Blow through turboed 400ci mopar. Thanks for posting

[ohiomotoxer]

We use the LM-1 on the dyno and in the field here at HMF.
The Innovate forum has some of the best questions/answers I have found anywhere.

It is a great tool to confirm your test results.

[08400EX]

Originally posted by ohiomotoxer
We use the LM-1 on the dyno and in the field here at HMF.
The Innovate forum has some of the best questions/answers I have found anywhere.

It is a great tool to confirm your test results.

You are dead on about the IM Forum!

Yes I would be very surprised (and dissapointed) if any Performance Part Manufacturer didn't use something similar... especially an exhaust Manufacturer ...

2 thumbs up to HMF for the great job on the Swamp Series, I had one on my former Honda Foreman, kicked butt even with the lower sound level.!!

[zrpilot]

08400EX,

I have an LM-1 as well and when the weather warms up, I'm going to play with it some!

Couple of things: are you concerned the the sensor will not be effected by exhaust reversion? Do you think it far enough from the exit not to be effected by reversion?

I'm thinking about building a sniffer with a copper tube to get into the exhaust near the split in the header. This sniffer would have the WBO sensor near the exhaust tip on my Sparks. I'll actually build another exhaust tip to house the WBO sensor and the tube will extned into the exhaust. Any thoughts on this?

How are you going to power you LM-1 400EX battery? I'm thinking of using a battery from a cordless tool to power my LM-1.

Are you going to permanently mount it? I'm thinking about putting mine in a back pack that I wear along with the battery.

Oh yeah- NICE WORK... the dude that said you wasted your money is WRONG, IMO.

[08400EX]

Originally posted by zrpilot
08400EX,

I have an LM-1 as well and when the weather warms up, I'm going to play with it some!

Couple of things: are you concerned the the sensor will not be effected by exhaust reversion? Do you think it far enough from the exit not to be effected by reversion?

I'm thinking about building a sniffer with a copper tube to get into the exhaust near the split in the header. This sniffer would have the WBO sensor near the exhaust tip on my Sparks. I'll actually build another exhaust tip to house the WBO sensor and the tube will extned into the exhaust. Any thoughts on this?

How are you going to power you LM-1 400EX battery? I'm thinking of using a battery from a cordless tool to power my LM-1.

Are you going to permanently mount it? I'm thinking about putting mine in a back pack that I wear along with the battery.

Oh yeah- NICE WORK... the dude that said you wasted your money is WRONG, IMO.

I have no worries about reversion in that location. I have used the Innovate "venturi" tailpipe sniffer in the past with good results and it was at the tip. Your Idea should work very well also plus you can move it from one bike to another easily.

I had planned to add a stealth 12v outlet somewhere anyway so I will probably go ahead and do that and use it for the LM-1.

As far as permanent mounting I am thinking about either installing an LC-1 permanently with a small digital guage. I may also go the "cheap" route and after tuning is done install a narrow band sensor and using an inexpensive A/F ratio gauge . I have a few of these laying around (see first photo) and due to their design they are easy to create custom mounting locations (see 2nd photo where I mounted one in stock center console). My only concern with this is waterproofing the gauges(the LC-1 is waterproof) and will have to take a look at that.

BTW, thanks for the encouragement!

http://www.928gt.com/images/product/medium/1409.gif

https://www.928gt.com/images/product/large/1409.jpg

[zrpilot]

Originally posted by 08400EX
I have used the Innovate "venturi" tailpipe sniffer in the past with good results and it was at the tip. .


Was this on a single cylinder engine?

Also when do you plan on doing your first run using the LM-1? Would you be willing to share the file(s) from some of your 400EX runs so I can look at them with my Innovate software? Or at least post pictures?

[08400EX]

Originally posted by zrpilot
Was this on a single cylinder engine?

Also when do you plan on doing your first run using the LM-1? Would you be willing to share the file(s) from some of your 400EX runs so I can look at them with my Innovate software? Or at least post pictures?

Yes, a single, but keep in mind I said "good" results, not GREAT :-)

Hope to do some runs this weekend, depends on the weather. I need to get back in the "office" a little more so time is going to be crunched the next week or so.

I have no problem sharing the files, that is what we(or at least me:-) are here for, to share information and experiances and learn from each other.

If I get the time I hope to even post some video of the "playback" of some of the runs.

[zrpilot]

Originally posted by 08400EX
Yes, a single, but keep in mind I said "good" results, not GREAT :-)

Hope to do some runs this weekend, depends on the weather. I need to get back in the "office" a little more so time is going to be crunched the next week or so.

I have no problem sharing the files, that is what we(or at least me:-) are here for, to share information and experiances and learn from each other.

If I get the time I hope to even post some video of the "playback" of some of the runs.

AWESOME!

Thanks. And your right, the best thing about this board is sharing information, helping others and supporting the sport. Too many times it can get kinda juvenile here.

[08400EX]

Originally posted by zrpilot
AWESOME!

Thanks. And your right, the best thing about this board is sharing information, helping others and supporting the sport. Too many times it can get kinda juvenile here.


Too funny, I am a member of a many forums and even the main sponsor of a few... no matter what the demographics or subject matter ... THEY ALL GET JUVENILE... from time to time :-)

Actually this forum is pretty mature compared to most AND ironically seems to have the youngest average age of the others.

[Hondamaster5505]

there was this one site called top speed, and those kids were on crack:eek2:

They're all like my 400ex does 135 but the speedo on my dakota ran out.

Or Well i got 175 stock gearing!


They don't know jack crap about quads. They probably go in 2nd gear like, DUDE, i just got to 100mph!

So i second this is a more mature forum

[NacsMXer]

Very nice install 08400EX :cool:

My Procharged F-150 was dyno tuned with an Innovate LM-1, and I can attest to how great these wb02's are when it comes to tuning. My truck flatlines a nice 11.5 A/F from 4300 RPM all the way through the 5200 RPM redline at WOT. Safe, and makes great power at the same time. I could only imagine having one on my quad...spot-on jetting would yield the same results and be like 1 2 3!

[08400EX]

Originally posted by zrpilot
08400EX,

.... are you concerned the the sensor will not be effected by exhaust reversion? Do you think it far enough from the exit not to be effected by reversion?



ZRPilot,

You started to make me a little worried, but I did have faith in my location due the stepped header/pipe design of the Yoshi which is a decent AR (anti-reversion) design.

AND.. It works GREAT. See the first photo showing 1250rpm idle (cold engine with choke on) showing 11.26 A/F.... As you know seeing the rich condition is better than a crazy lean condition as far as reversion is concerned.

The next photo shows reving the engine up (neutral no load, cold engine with choke still on) to 5030rpm and getting a 10.xx A/F ratio.

All readings are nice and steady!

As you also know Idle and crusie are where reversion issues are typically the worst with O2 sensors :-)

After those tests and a few other I just finished I am a go to get it all wired up for some tuning runs. If the rain holds off I will have more later today.

:D

[08400EX]

2nd photo...

[08400EX]

Had enough time to throw some test equipment on and get a couple of quick runs.

Here are some "snapshots" of 3 RPM areas of my first run.

In 30 seconds or so I see I am pretty close with the K158 Main Jet on the top end, I was too optomistic putting the new adjustable needle on the 5th clip (too rich, just had to try it once) in the midrange rpms and my 42 pilot can be richened up a little at idle.

FYI, I am at 3000' elevation and outside temp is approx 60 degrees.

:-)

More to come later....

[400sEXridr]

just curious, and i am new to this stuff, but what is an ideal AFR

[07trx400ex]

It depends on what type and grade of fuel you are running, but 14.7:1 is considered to be the "cleanest" ratio of air to fuel(for gasoline). For a performance application you should be a little on the rich side to protect your engine.

To make a richer AFR you would decrease the amount of air in the mixture for example 13.84:1 is richer than 14.7:1

[zrpilot]

08400EX, very nice!

Notice the PM I sent?

[08400EX]

Originally posted by 400sEXridr
just curious, and i am new to this stuff, but what is an ideal AFR

General Guidelines for an air-cooled MC/Quad engine:

Choked (depending on temp extremes) - 11.5-12.5

Idle - 12.8-13.2

Part Throttle "Steady Speed/RPM"(Cruise) - 13.0-14.0

Wide Open Throttle - 12.5-12.8 - Richer if you have Pre-detonation issues (knock) and/or higher compression - Probably shouldn't go richer than 11.5.

[08400EX]

Originally posted by 07trx400ex
It depends on what type and grade of fuel you are running, but 14.7:1 is considered to be the "cleanest" ratio of air to fuel(for gasoline). For a performance application you should be a little on the rich side to protect your engine.


FYI, 14.7 is the ideal mixture(stoichiometric) for gas/air to ignite and yes typically the cleanest. But that is the standard for an emissions equipped automobile. If you run that lean on an air-cooled engine you will introduce a lot of un-necessary heat.. not good.

[08400EX]

Originally posted by zrpilot
08400EX, very nice!

Notice the PM I sent?

Just got it, you are very welcome and I look forward to it!

[scuzz]

Well that's much easier than checking the plugs!

[400sEXridr]

thats really sweet. thanks for the info guys. i might need to look into something like this.

[07trx400ex]

Had a chance to do any tuning yet?

[08400EX]

Originally posted by 07trx400ex
Had a chance to do any tuning yet?

Tuning has been done, for now. I plan to do some testing on different airbox configurations in the next week or so. Will post results when I get that done.

[07trx400ex]

Ok, I was curious because I am going to be running an almost identical setup as you.

I ordered:
Yoshi RS-3 Full Carbon
Pro-Design Pro Flow K&N Intake Kit w/outerwears
K&N Powerlid
Pro Armor Nerfs all around
All from Leeson's Ebay Store I added up the price and subtracted 25% offered it and they accepted. It was a little crazy!!!

Anyway, the point is that I am going to copy your jetting and hopefully get it right the first time.

My spring break is March 14-19. So hopefully it will be here by then! I am going to have fun installing all of this, maybe I will actually learn a few things about the bike.

(The only difference is I will have a K&N and you will have a Uni)

I might have to ask you questions if I run into any snags on the install.

[07trx400ex]

My only questions are:

What brand jets did you use?

Would try a different main since I have lower elevation and slightly higher temps?

[08400EX]

If you install the 42 pilot, with I think about 1 3/4 turn out on the screw, use a washer to split the difference between the 3rd and 4th clip positions(04 and earlier adjustable needle) and use a 158 main you should be very close. Once the weather warms up more I will revisit the A/F to see if I need to make any more changes for summer.

[08400EX]

Originally posted by 07trx400ex
My only questions are:

What brand jets did you use?

Would try a different main since I have lower elevation and slightly higher temps?


I only use Keihin jets.

You might consider a 160 main and going to the 4th clip in the summer.

[zdowell]

be cool to put a a/f gauge on your fender or somewhere up in the line of site. You would get a few WTF's for sure.

That would be awesome if Trail Tech came out with something that had the RPM, Speed, Time, temperature and such but instead of the head temperature oil temperatue and they should have an A/F gauge just have the red, yellow, and green lights in stages.

[ti2ibal1]

That's awesome!

I wish I could get mine to run with just a normal carb... :rolleyes: