wider front or rear?

[mcleod]

maybe this question gonna sound newb for some, but i can't find my answer when try to search on the forum!

what is better for cornering, having a wide front compared to the rear, or having the rear wider then the front ? or maybe as close as possible?

[NJ450rider]

The front should be the same as the rear at least. Ideal is when the front is a tiny bit wider than the rear. Having the rear wider than the front is horrible and dangerous for handling.

Also having your shocks setup right is also a huge factor in cornering performance.

[JOEX]

Originally posted by NJ450rider
The front should be the same as the rear at least. Ideal is when the front is a tiny bit wider than the rear. Having the rear wider than the front is horrible and dangerous for handling.
...
Why do they come from the factory with the front narrower than the rear?

[BlaineKaiser450]

when i got a new front end, i didnt have time to put on the axle before the race that weekend, so i did the race with +3 front end and a stock rear. It didnt feel all that weird but was a lil different than wat i was used to in corners.

[parkers30]

JoeX thats what I was just thinking too

Although with a lower ride height the front of most sport quads come right to the width of the rear.

[terko440]

By having your front end narrower than the rear your making it behave as 3-wheeler would, not as extreme of course but it will be easier to tip on it's side.

[my88r]

i would like to know why the factory does that to.:confused:

[NJ450rider]

Yeah i wonderd that too myself. They have changed over the last couple years. Many quads now have the front the same and even a lil wider than the rear. and yeah having the front narrow and the rear wide will make it roll in turns like a atc.

[mcleod]

nice thanks you all for your answer!

Wider front is always better for handling. Not only that but your watching your front tires and not your rear. If you run stock A-arms and +3/+4 axle you run the chance of cliping somthing or running some ones tire over since your not watching the rear.

[John451]

The front wheels take a majority of the pressure while turning because the front wheel digs in since the grounds trying to go straight but your fronts are trying to fight that. I have a +6 kit in the front and nothing in the back. I can't flip that thing even WHEN I TRY. Having it like that causes some swingarm twisting but it's not too much of a problem, nothings completely going to stop that unles you have like a +10. I'm amazing at bicycles. I held one for 20 minutes once. My bike was amazing for gettin up in them. It would flip up in 1/8 of a turn. Now it takes 3/4 of a turn to get it up. I mean I was pissed but now I know I wont get chucked. The best is having the front a lil bigger. Like I'm going to get a +3 or 4 swingarm +6 if they make it. I don't race too much but im tryin to make a monster wheeler. By the way I have a 400ex shock conversion kit in the front. I have them cranked as high as they go and I still cant tip it. Oh well. If you want a good deal for width gain and everything to do it go to www.diamondjcustoms.com I got a +6 for $200 with shipping. Best thing I've gotten for it. Good luck. Also, you may want to cut the front ones because mine looks rediculous. Cuttin them next week when I get my plastic welder in.

[NJ450rider]

I really dont like those kits cause they widen the front end the wrong way. putting the pivot point of the a arms out isnt good for handling at all. especially shock travel. I have 400ex +2 a arms and a top shock relocator bracket on our 300ex w 400ex shocks as well. it works awesome.

I always say wider a arms are for going into a turn and a longer swing arm/wider axle are for coming out of one.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by John451
www.diamondjcustoms.com


:scary:

[John451]

Originally posted by NJ450rider
I really dont like those kits cause they widen the front end the wrong way. putting the pivot point of the a arms out isnt good for handling at all. especially shock travel. I have 400ex +2 a arms and a top shock relocator bracket on our 300ex w 400ex shocks as well. it works awesome.

I always say wider a arms are for going into a turn and a longer swing arm/wider axle are for coming out of one.

It's not the wrong way at all. It doesn't affect handling in a bad way. I mean as great as the longer, lighter, stronger A-arms are. The longer ones keep the same shock mount distance from the frame making it so they compress more. The ones where they put the stock a-arms out and the suspention. You can get the kit that puts them out but for like 20 or 40 more you can get the 400/450 ex conversion kit. I defiantly reccomend this kit. it works great for me. I love it. It's about $300-400 less than the longer a-arms. But i got excellant results from them. If you get the kit i would suggest 450r front shocks because the 400ex's are spongey.

Originally posted by John451
It's not the wrong way at all. It doesn't affect handling in a bad way. I mean as great as the longer, lighter, stronger A-arms are. The longer ones keep the same shock mount distance from the frame making it so they compress more. The ones where they put the stock a-arms out and the suspention. You can get the kit that puts them out but for like 20 or 40 more you can get the 400/450 ex conversion kit. I defiantly reccomend this kit. it works great for me. I love it. It's about $300-400 less than the longer a-arms. But i got excellant results from them. If you get the kit i would suggest 450r front shocks because the 400ex's are spongey.

The Diamond J Customs kits are the cheap easy and wrong way to widen a quad. They are fine for something smaller like a 250ex and maybe a 300ex its fine but I would never in my life buy a quad with that kit on or use that kit. I rather take a bigger dent out of my wallet and know I did everything right the 1st time by buying a-arms than kick myself in the a** or something later.

[NJ450rider]

The Burgard a arms on our 300ex i got for 300 brand new. There perfect because theyll last forever since my brothers girl rides it now. shes not rough on stuff.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y248/srt4acrnj/HPIM0742.jpg

Heres our 300ex with a complete 400ex front end.

[John451]

It's not the wrong way! Just because it's inexpensive everyone thinks its crap. It works great, so many height adjustments. Everyone seems to think that they make those out of balsa wood. It's 1/4 inch steel. I mean go ahead and whine about the extra 3 pounds it adds. I mean if someone can come up with a logical reason besides it's the wrong way, maybe I'll see WHY its the WRONG way. I don't really see how it's the wrong way, In my opinion, I think that the diamondj's are better than the other ones because I think that the design is better.

[NJ450rider]

"I really dont like those kits cause they widen the front end the wrong way. putting the pivot point of the a arms out isnt good for handling at all. especially shock travel."


^^^i told you two reasons why and there legit ones at that.^^^

[ben300]

Originally posted by John451
It's not the wrong way! Just because it's inexpensive everyone thinks its crap. It works great, so many height adjustments. Everyone seems to think that they make those out of balsa wood. It's 1/4 inch steel. I mean go ahead and whine about the extra 3 pounds it adds. I mean if someone can come up with a logical reason besides it's the wrong way, maybe I'll see WHY its the WRONG way. I don't really see how it's the wrong way, In my opinion, I think that the diamondj's are better than the other ones because I think that the design is better.

its a completely bad idea...sure it widens the front end of the quad, which will make it handle better, but under extreme conditions, its a system that provides way to much stress. a arms are designed to take the stresses dished at them properlly, so wider a arms do the same. when you widden your quad that way, your creating an extra area for stress points, plus your shocks will not travel right. a arms adn shocks are designed to work with each other to achieve certain angles to allow teh shock to move adn compress properly, giving your quad a safe nice ride with optimum travel. when you put spacers on like tat, tey increas the shock angle, which decreases your shocks stroke and travel.....

[John451]

Originally posted by ben300
its a completely bad idea...sure it widens the front end of the quad, which will make it handle better, but under extreme conditions, its a system that provides way to much stress. a arms are designed to take the stresses dished at them properlly, so wider a arms do the same. when you widden your quad that way, your creating an extra area for stress points, plus your shocks will not travel right. a arms adn shocks are designed to work with each other to achieve certain angles to allow teh shock to move adn compress properly, giving your quad a safe nice ride with optimum travel. when you put spacers on like tat, tey increas the shock angle, which decreases your shocks stroke and travel.....

But it's really not changing it. It's just basically stretching the frame. But yea, I see where you're coming from with the stress but I check the bolts every few rides. The spacers slide in behind the a arms not the wheel ones. It doesn't decrease the stroke or change the angle because It has a piece that moves the shock out to be around where the stock mounts would be. It accounts for the extra inches put on. It just looks really angled in the picture because I have everything adjusted up so it's taller for more clearance and because i was tryin to lay some bicycles out but It's too stable now :( . The shock travel would be exactly the same if I got the kit to keep the stock ones. But since I have the conversion it still doesn't even change the travel. It's all accounted for. It's the same as stock, except for the stress which It has 16 stress points so it's set.

[Scro]

The biggest problem with the kit is the fact that you are moving the mounting point of the arms without moving the mounting point for the tierods. The steering will be out of wack. I'm sure 707 could get into the technical reasons why;) (or search it, it's been discussed many times)

Take a look at the difference in angle between the tierods and a-arms. They are way off. In a perfect setup, the tierod would be parallel with the a-arms, and do so throughout the entire range of motion.

That is why some of the old Laeger 250r frames were narrow in the front. They were trying to get the mounting point of the tierods as close as possible to the a-arms. Even Ballance was trying to achieve this with his modified frame. That kit does the exact opposite.

[John451]

Originally posted by Scro
The biggest problem with the kit is the fact that you are moving the mounting point of the arms without moving the mounting point for the tierods. The steering will be out of wack. I'm sure 707 could get into the technical reasons why;) (or search it, it's been discussed many times)

Take a look at the difference in angle between the tierods and a-arms. They are way off. In a perfect setup, the tierod would be parallel with the a-arms, and do so throughout the entire range of motion.

That is why some of the old Laeger 250r frames were narrow in the front. They were trying to get the mounting point of the tierods as close as possible to the a-arms. Even Ballance was trying to achieve this with his modified frame. That kit does the exact opposite.

Ok, thanks, Now that's a reason. I haven't really noticed a difference i steering though. I'll have to keep that in mind next time I'm out on it. excellant point though. Because that makes it have the wierd effect of having the extra 3" that wasn't accounted for in the main design of the quad. I mean I checked the clearance and it didn't seem to hit at all.

[ben300]

Originally posted by John451
Ok, thanks, Now that's a reason. I haven't really noticed a difference i steering though. I'll have to keep that in mind next time I'm out on it. excellant point though. Because that makes it have the wierd effect of having the extra 3" that wasn't accounted for in the main design of the quad. I mean I checked the clearance and it didn't seem to hit at all.

ok...i dont know if i am correct by this either, and 707 may know, but like, wouldnt those being attatched to the frame, cause the frame to have more torsion and deflection than what would normally occur with a stock setup or with an aftermarket a arm setup that was designed correctly.

Also to me, and i would have to test this to see if it is true, and i could be completely wrong, but also, if you move teh uper shock mounts up and out, which im concluding from your picture, would that act in such a way to creat a greater moment on your from mounts, welds, frame itself, causing it to be structurally week.

Like i said, i could be wrong, buut i had a friend that did pretty much the same thing with his 400ex..im not sure made the conversion kit on his bike, but after riding it only a few times, we figured it probably wasnt a great idea to ride it agressively, so he went adn bought wider aarms.

[John451]

Originally posted by ben300
ok...i dont know if i am correct by this either, and 707 may know, but like, wouldnt those being attatched to the frame, cause the frame to have more torsion and deflection than what would normally occur with a stock setup or with an aftermarket a arm setup that was designed correctly.

Also to me, and i would have to test this to see if it is true, and i could be completely wrong, but also, if you move teh uper shock mounts up and out, which im concluding from your picture, would that act in such a way to creat a greater moment on your from mounts, welds, frame itself, causing it to be structurally week.

Like i said, i could be wrong, buut i had a friend that did pretty much the same thing with his 400ex..im not sure made the conversion kit on his bike, but after riding it only a few times, we figured it probably wasnt a great idea to ride it agressively, so he went adn bought wider aarms.

The way that they made the pieces for the 300 makes it so there is a bridge or arc from one piece to the other so most of the structure is there. But as far as the tension on the frame, It should be about the same as stock, maybe a little less. Well, it really depends how you have it set up. I have it set so the a arms are at a steep angle. That's putting more pressure on the frame. Oh well... But They can be adjusted to make it more level. It should be giving as much pressure on the frame as without it. The only pressure that's on the frame is the same as before, maybe less because of that bridge. The conversion kit takes alot of pressure off of the top mounts and the a arm mounts. Most of the other people are unfamiliar with the workings of the bridges on them so they think its crap. But it's the best structural design for it. The only way they could have made the kit better is if they made it out of titanium. But then the price wouldn't be so good.

[ALAMX37]

You clearly dont understand design engineering, so I will not try to argue my point with you. Adding width with anything other than a-arms and an axle is a mistake that could cost you your health, especially for anyone who races or rides hard. If it was a good idea you would see more people use them. Listen to Nj450 he knows what he is talking about.

[John451]

Originally posted by ALAMX37
You clearly dont understand design engineering, so I will not try to argue my point with you. Adding width with anything other than a-arms and an axle is a mistake that could cost you your health, especially for anyone who races or rides hard. If it was a good idea you would see more people use them. Listen to Nj450 he knows what he is talking about.

Haha, sry i completely see what you were all talkin about now. I took it out for a hard ride on the extensions and it had wierd steering. It was like you were saying... The steering was off and sensative. If i took a hard turn the outer front arm would bottom out the shock and get stuck until I slammed the bars to turn out. Idk. As cool as it makes it look, it slamms the preformance to the ground. Sorry everyone for bein an idiot about the kit. Kinda extremely dis-satisfied : / Oh well, that's what I get haha. Idk where im goin from here. Haha.

[ben300]

Originally posted by ALAMX37
You clearly dont understand design engineering, so I will not try to argue my point with you. Adding width with anything other than a-arms and an axle is a mistake that could cost you your health, especially for anyone who races or rides hard. If it was a good idea you would see more people use them. Listen to Nj450 he knows what he is talking about.


what are you referring to? me or him?....

I completely said that widening kits are a bad idea and that he should go with a-arms instead....so i dont understand?

[John451]

Originally posted by ben300
what are you referring to? me or him?....

I completely said that widening kits are a bad idea and that he should go with a-arms instead....so i dont understand?

I think he was tryin to tell me I didn't know what I was talking about in the wrong way because it doesn't have to do with design engineering cuz I'm goin into engineering so I would know what I was talkin about in that department. But I didn't realize how wierd it would make the suspention even tho it was keepin it like stock but widening it but I was defiantly wrong there. But now I agree with everyone haha. So I wouldn't suggest those now.

[ben300]

Originally posted by John451
I think he was tryin to tell me I didn't know what I was talking about in the wrong way because it doesn't have to do with design engineering cuz I'm goin into engineering so I would know what I was talkin about in that department. But I didn't realize how wierd it would make the suspention even tho it was keepin it like stock but widening it but I was defiantly wrong there. But now I agree with everyone haha. So I wouldn't suggest those now.



ya man, im almost done wth my mechanical engineering degree, and i was trying to put it in terms of design, cause thats what i want to do someday,, adn well i think for havey abuse...tis a really really bad idea....

[John451]

Originally posted by ben300
ya man, im almost done wth my mechanical engineering degree, and i was trying to put it in terms of design, cause thats what i want to do someday,, adn well i think for havey abuse...tis a really really bad idea....

Nice. Yea, I mean it looks sturdy compared to the little stock shock mounts but they didn't do the top support ones as well. They put more support on the bottom connecting support than on the top one, which I believe takes a little more of a beating, but they just put a little piece connecting it. I mean it would still maybe hold up but it makes the front suspention just go with the kit. I didn't get how that would work when everyone was saying it but now I do. Does anyone know why that happens? I mean one would think since it moves the mounts out everywhere top and bottom and shock that it would be similar to stock. I mean I think the conversion kit would work alot better with just arms because it moves the mounts out. But the design of the kit is kinda wierd now that i rode around on it.

[ben300]

Originally posted by John451
Nice. Yea, I mean it looks sturdy compared to the little stock shock mounts but they didn't do the top support ones as well. They put more support on the bottom connecting support than on the top one, which I believe takes a little more of a beating, but they just put a little piece connecting it. I mean it would still maybe hold up but it makes the front suspention just go with the kit. I didn't get how that would work when everyone was saying it but now I do. Does anyone know why that happens? I mean one would think since it moves the mounts out everywhere top and bottom and shock that it would be similar to stock. I mean I think the conversion kit would work alot better with just arms because it moves the mounts out. But the design of the kit is kinda wierd now that i rode around on it.

im not really sure, but my friend who used a similar kit on his ex, used the widening kit and the remounts for the top of the shocks. ......

wut i see wrong with it is that by putting a widening kid on teh a-arm frame mounts and the shock relocator on teh top shock mount your are increasing the bending and shear stresss applied to teh stock mounting points because the point where the loads are applied is lengthened.....


the stock from mounts, are designed from the factory to work optimumly...sure ya they break from time to time, but thats because they're designed for general riding applications and are not designed to take some of teh abuse ppl put their equiment through..

thats why aftermarkets work well, they retain stock geometry, and add better ride quality and shock travel...while using the stock mounts..

[John451]

Originally posted by ben300
im not really sure, but my friend who used a similar kit on his ex, used the widening kit and the remounts for the top of the shocks. ......

wut i see wrong with it is that by putting a widening kid on teh a-arm frame mounts and the shock relocator on teh top shock mount your are increasing the bending and shear stresss applied to teh stock mounting points because the point where the loads are applied is lengthened.....


the stock from mounts, are designed from the factory to work optimumly...sure ya they break from time to time, but thats because they're designed for general riding applications and are not designed to take some of teh abuse ppl put their equiment through..

thats why aftermarkets work well, they retain stock geometry, and add better ride quality and shock travel...while using the stock mounts..

Ohh, I see. Were his 400ex shocks extremely spongey? Cuz I noticed with mine that even if I want a right 180 turn in 2nd the front left a arm completely compress and it gets stuck until I have to litterally smack the throttle side of the bars to get it to turn out, then it goes back up. Is there a way to fix it besides makin it a hardnose or whatever and puttin square tube in instead of shocks? Or would the stock ones with the L brackets flipped over and moved down work any better?

[ben300]

Originally posted by John451
Ohh, I see. Were his 400ex shocks extremely spongey? Cuz I noticed with mine that even if I want a right 180 turn in 2nd the front left a arm completely compress and it gets stuck until I have to litterally smack the throttle side of the bars to get it to turn out, then it goes back up. Is there a way to fix it besides makin it a hardnose or whatever and puttin square tube in instead of shocks? Or would the stock ones with the L brackets flipped over and moved down work any better?

his shocks were only stockers, and they werent revalved or resprung, but they seem to work fine with the setup...we he first did it, he only had the widening kit up front and wheel spacers out back...he did this only cause he wanded to race flat track and tt races....he he didnt not use the shock relocator at first...it turned fine, actually better because it was wider, however he was not getting the correct peformance out of the shocks and the bike was bottoming out faster cause of shorter travel, lowerd hight, and less overall shock stroke.

so he then used the shock remounts, and a pep( i believe) lowering link in the back.....this corrected the shock travel, but it was real goofy and was not ment for the abuse he was giving it....

so he jsut abandoned the idea, and baught aarms and such...



it question to your shock problem, if im getting wut your saying correctly, id say you jsut have a bad shock and may need a new one....try removing the widening kit, and reattachign everthing as was in stock setup and see if the problem persists...that coudl be a bad shock if it stays compressed....which could lead to injury!

[John451]

Haha, ya I was turnin in the road at the end of my driveway and almost fell off and i was like WTF?? Before I had the kit in, I was goin and I slammed a rock in the grass with just my front right wheel and well ya i dislocated my wrist from the handle bar jerkin and had to reset it on the trail but the bolt from the tie rod end dented the corner of my a arm in and it made a pocket where it can jam itself into and get stuck. I think that it's just that that's the problem for sticking. I might try swappin the shocks and tryin that turn again.

[ben300]

Originally posted by John451
Haha, ya I was turnin in the road at the end of my driveway and almost fell off and i was like WTF?? Before I had the kit in, I was goin and I slammed a rock in the grass with just my front right wheel and well ya i dislocated my wrist from the handle bar jerkin and had to reset it on the trail but the bolt from the tie rod end dented the corner of my a arm in and it made a pocket where it can jam itself into and get stuck. I think that it's just that that's the problem for sticking. I might try swappin the shocks and tryin that turn again.


ya that dont sounds like a good idea...but i'd change that a-arm as well..if thats get stuck like taht,you dont watn to be putting the peddle to the wood down through the woods or something and then get bucked off into the jingweeds....that a great way to get screwed up....trying maybe bending it back....but since its already bent, the metal has plastically deformed, which means its structural integrity has been damaged...

i personaly would just save some money and buy some nice aftermarket equipment

[John451]

Originally posted by ben300
ya that dont sounds like a good idea...but i'd change that a-arm as well..if thats get stuck like taht,you dont watn to be putting the peddle to the wood down through the woods or something and then get bucked off into the jingweeds....that a great way to get screwed up....trying maybe bending it back....but since its already bent, the metal has plastically deformed, which means its structural integrity has been damaged...

i personaly would just save some money and buy some nice aftermarket equipment

Well yeah, I was lookin to replace my lowers. But with the dented one, it's just collapsed in in a spot about the size of a nickle. It's not smooshed or bent. The bolt punched the tube in.

[ben300]

Originally posted by John451
Well yeah, I was lookin to replace my lowers. But with the dented one, it's just collapsed in in a spot about the size of a nickle. It's not smooshed or bent. The bolt punched the tube in.

that dent probalby really wont make a difference, even tho it is still structurally week.....its still sounds like you got some major problems tho....


but ya...any chance i get to replace stock stuff with good aftermarket equipment...i jump on the chance..

[John451]

Originally posted by ben300
that dent probalby really wont make a difference, even tho it is still structurally week.....its still sounds like you got some major problems tho....


but ya...any chance i get to replace stock stuff with good aftermarket equipment...i jump on the chance..

Yea, I might actually get some 450r front shocks cuz those are piggybak shocks.