I don't get it. [Archive] - ATV Riders Forum

kawabunga

01-17-2008, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by CSR400EX
the pro dirtbike motors are built with one-off parts. they are not available to the average rider. they have a lot of secrets in their motors. just think, if their forks cost around 30,000 to build, just imagine what the motor costs:eek2:

i think it was 60-70,000 for the motor. thought i saw that on a special one night on speed or something. it was a while ago. please correct me if im wrong.

and TheBlasterMan - weight has nothing to do with one of the two machines acutally making more horsepower, just how much you "feel"

TheNewn

01-18-2008, 10:58 AM

Dyno a dirtbike, then take the same engine and dyno it in a quad. You'll get less in the quad obviously.

I'm sure the Pro bikes really aren't that far off.

TRX450RACER174

01-18-2008, 11:45 AM

Yeah the extra wheel and axle really robbs H/P.

mymastifftucker

01-18-2008, 12:37 PM

You'll have less HP at the wheels but the motor HP obviously stays the same. I wouldnt think it was a 10 HP difference between the two though.....maybe.

TRX450RACER174

01-18-2008, 01:56 PM

You have a lot more drag from two tires as well as the drag of the carrier compared to the wheel hub on a MX bike, and as stated earlier there motors have way more advanced parts in them than any top built Quad motor, Supercross is a multi-million dollar business.

INFAMOUSRACER7

01-18-2008, 05:24 PM

hate to burst anyones bubble but pro dirtbikes are only puttin out around 55. that is a lot for a bike and way more then anyone on here could handle

TRX450RACER174

01-18-2008, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by INFAMOUSRACER7
hate to burst anyones bubble but pro dirtbikes are only puttin out around 55. that is a lot for a bike and way more then anyone on here could handle

Yeah and your the expert on everyone in here right?

CSR400EX

01-18-2008, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by INFAMOUSRACER7
hate to burst anyones bubble but pro dirtbikes are only puttin out around 55. that is a lot for a bike and way more then anyone on here could handle
i have to call BS on that. a CRF450 is putting out between 45 and 50 hp STOCK!!! so 55 is BS im guessing 65-70 for a factory supercross bike

INFAMOUSRACER7

01-19-2008, 10:01 AM

its puttin out around 45, but have any of you ever road one? stock they will do anything you could put in front of them. It seems like most of you are guessing at what the bikes are puttin out.

bloodmoney23

01-19-2008, 10:08 AM

The CRF motor only puts out a couple more than the TRX motor. IE electrical system to include stator and such and the cam. HP dont matter to much anyway. Ive seen a stock 300EX beat a modded 400EX just cause the rider on the 400EX sucked. So b4 there is a fistfight over how many HP's are coming out of the CRF motor, shut up.

TheNewn

01-19-2008, 10:18 AM

Yeah, and i was beaten by some kid on a 90EX (That had a flat tire, no gas, no brakes, and bent handle bars.) when i was on my 250R....i guess he was just really good...

XXXRACER165

01-19-2008, 11:51 AM

A stock CRF450R puts out 51hp. Now add a pipe and filter + jets (7hp), cam (6hp), hi-compression piston (2hp), and extreme port work (5-6hp). YOU GOT A 70 SOME HORSE ENGINE! NO BULL ABOUT THAT!

bloodmoney23

01-19-2008, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by TheNewn
Yeah, and i was beaten by some kid on a 90EX (That had a flat tire, no gas, no brakes, and bent handle bars.) when i was on my 250R....i guess he was just really good...

well doesnt that just suck for you.

pro-rider46

01-19-2008, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by bloodmoney23
well doesnt that just suck for you.

haha

BlaineKaiser450

01-19-2008, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by XXXRACER165
A stock CRF450R puts out 51hp. Now add a pipe and filter + jets (7hp), cam (6hp), hi-compression piston (2hp), and extreme port work (5-6hp). YOU GOT A 70 SOME HORSE ENGINE! NO BULL ABOUT THAT! very true,,,, one of the guys i race with has a crf 450r aswell as his quad and he dynoed it at like 72hp or something. its crazy. He has all the mods you described

Flyin-Low

01-19-2008, 02:05 PM

My one friend's friend has a CRF450R that dyno'd at 98.36HP. It was all stock with nothing but flowmaster headers and the kanooter valve ground down to .39 inches to the north.

440ex kid

01-19-2008, 02:34 PM

A stock CRF450R puts out 51hp. Now add a pipe and filter + jets (7hp), cam (6hp), hi-compression piston (2hp), and extreme port work (5-6hp). YOU GOT A 70 SOME HORSE ENGINE! NO BULL ABOUT THAT!

13 horse from a pipe and cam? Hard to believe. If that was the case then we better start boltin up crf top ends to our 450r cases. The stock pipes on the dirt bikes arent as restrictive and the cams are more aggressive then a 450r. So we should be able to do the exact same mods to a 450r motor and get 70 horse? There is a limiting factor, the bike and quad motors are built different.

very true,,,, one of the guys i race with has a crf 450r aswell as his quad and he dynoed it at like 72hp or something. its crazy. He has all the mods you described

Im callin bull on this one. Ill believe this when I see them both on a engine dyno with everything held constant. Also what mods were on the bike motor? Had to be a big bore or somethin

BlaineKaiser450

01-19-2008, 02:37 PM

im not completly sure what the motor had, but it was pretty built.

CSR400EX

01-19-2008, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by INFAMOUSRACER7
its puttin out around 45, but have any of you ever road one? stock they will do anything you could put in front of them. It seems like most of you are guessing at what the bikes are puttin out.
actually i used to own a CRF450 when i was racing dirt bikes. i know what these bikes can do. the Factory Honda supercross bikes have a lot of what they call "special" parts. the tranny is different i know that for a fact. as for the powertrain i have no idea.

TheNewn

01-19-2008, 03:58 PM

Let the thread die. It's become a pissing contest or something.

XXXRACER165

01-19-2008, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by TheNewn
Let the thread die. It's become a pissing contest or something.

NO :grr: I just got an e-mail back from the AMA and Reed's bike is putting out 72.71hp. These really are top of the line bikes guys. The pistons there running are CUSTOM MADE TO THEIR SPECS. They do extreme port work and flow test it, then send a cam out to be hard welded & ground down to exact perfection to make the most power at the right rpm matched to the flow of the head. On top of that, they advance the timing to match the cam, bore and stroke of that piston to fire at just the right time to make the most powerful burn ever. THIS IS TRUE INFORMATION for crying out loud.

TheNewn

01-19-2008, 04:53 PM

Yeah whatever, let it go.

BlaineKaiser450

01-19-2008, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by TheNewn
Yeah whatever, let it go. agreed

yernkie

01-19-2008, 07:16 PM

Here is the real questions for this post...

Has anyone ever really ran a sanctioned race, turned a wrench on a bike, or done any dyno tuning?

Reminds me of the old "Earnhardt would kick Gorden's *** in a bar fight" argument. Who really cares???:rolleyes:

Seano300ex

01-19-2008, 08:29 PM

New450r

01-20-2008, 02:08 PM

Ask Chad what he thinks if it is so inportant. If anyone would know he would.

XXXRACER165

01-20-2008, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by 440ex kid
[B]13 horse from a pipe and cam? Hard to believe.

The pipe and cam gain me just as much power on my 440EX. If I took the cam out & pipe off, rejet the carb so it will run it will make 34hp. With the cam and pipe on as it sits now, the engine has 45hp.

TheNewn

01-20-2008, 05:04 PM

You're looking at it totally wrong...you're taking an already fully modded engine and putting the restrictive even for stock muffler/cam back on. of course there's going to be a dramatic difference.

To reiterate his point, the dirtbikes are MADE FOR RACING, their cams and exhaust are MUCH less restrictive than what comes on quads, especially a 400ex. at least compare it to a 450R. So there is very little to gain going after market on the bikes compared to quads going after market.

Erg, you know what? i'm unsubscribed now.

XXXRACER165

01-20-2008, 07:25 PM

OPPS :ermm:

Ex_Rider43

01-20-2008, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by XXXRACER165
NO :grr: I just got an e-mail back from the AMA and Reed's bike is putting out 72.71hp. These really are top of the line bikes guys. The pistons there running are CUSTOM MADE TO THEIR SPECS. They do extreme port work and flow test it, then send a cam out to be hard welded & ground down to exact perfection to make the most power at the right rpm matched to the flow of the head. On top of that, they advance the timing to match the cam, bore and stroke of that piston to fire at just the right time to make the most powerful burn ever. THIS IS TRUE INFORMATION for crying out loud.

WTF.

XXXRACER165

01-20-2008, 07:53 PM

Please don't start. Just shut up and go drink your canadian beer.

440ex kid

01-20-2008, 09:23 PM

I just got an e-mail back from the AMA and Reed's bike is putting out 72.71hp.

Did they actually dyno his bike? Otherwise I doubt they would be releasing horsepower numbers for competition sake. And if it really is 75 horse, how much do you think they are goin to get on the ground with hardly any weight and a small tire?

Ex_Rider43

01-20-2008, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by Ex_Rider43
WTF.

How old are you ? you say the AMA knows whats inside chad reeds motor and how much HP it has and EMAILS YOU ABOUT IT !!!... what a moron. You clearly need special attention AND medication.

CSR400EX

01-20-2008, 11:25 PM

after doing a lil digging and research. 72.71 is a little high from what i have found. the highest claim i have heard is 65hp. i was reading up on thumper talk and came across some info on this. i have rode bikes with 70+ hp (410R) and i have owned a KX500 which kawasaki claims to put out 65hp stock. they all felt too scary to be MX racing.

XXXRACER165

01-21-2008, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by Ex_Rider43
How old are you ? you say the AMA knows whats inside chad reeds motor and how much HP it has and EMAILS YOU ABOUT IT !!!... what a moron. You clearly need special attention AND medication.

Yeah alright, I'm 20, VIP to AMA and yeah I lied about the email. I PERSONALY ASKED HIM LAST YEAR AT MILLVILL WHEN HE WAS GIVING OUT AUTOGRAPHS! So unless Chad Reed is a LIAR, don't be harping on me! And I also know the Larsons, you know Larson's Cycle Racing in Cambridge Minnesota? I live a 1/2 hour from there and they ride professional motocross. They tell me too that their pro bikes (450's) put out hp in the 70's. You calling them liars too? One last thing, I do get special attention..........from the ladies though unlike you!:blah:

INFAMOUSRACER7

01-21-2008, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by XXXRACER165
Yeah alright, I'm 20, VIP to AMA and yeah I lied about the email. I PERSONALY ASKED HIM LAST YEAR AT MILLVILL WHEN HE WAS GIVING OUT AUTOGRAPHS! So unless Chad Reed is a LIAR, don't be harping on me! And I also know the Larsons, you know Larson's Cycle Racing in Cambridge Minnesota? I live a 1/2 hour from there and they ride professional motocross. They tell me too that their pro bikes (450's) put out hp in the 70's. You calling them liars too? One last thing, I do get special attention..........from the ladies though unlike you!:blah:

wow just cause you like to name drop does that mean were supposed to believe you? i can drop names too, but just cause i know there names doenst mean sh!#. Why would anyone who races pro for a living really tell you what there bike is putting out? please for everyones sake just let this thread DIE! Like someone else said if you havent worked on one of there race teams then your probably not going to know what the real numbers are. VIP? does that stand for Very Irritating Person?

XXXRACER165

01-21-2008, 12:46 PM

Whatever guys. I'll let it go but, many people don't believe because their either jealous, liars, stupid, inmature or just plain think they are always right and don't make mistakes.

TheNewn

01-21-2008, 06:49 PM

yeah whatever dude, YOU lied and admited to it. So you lost all cedibility.

"That's TRUE INFROMATION!" HAH yeah right. Guess i know to take everything you say with a grain of salt. or a mountain of it.

XXXRACER165

01-21-2008, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by TheNewn
yeah whatever dude, YOU lied and admited to it. So you lost all cedibility.

"That's TRUE INFROMATION!" HAH yeah right. Guess i know to take everything you say with a grain of salt. or a mountain of it.

So you think I lie about everything?

440ex kid

01-21-2008, 09:19 PM

So you think I lie about everything?

Whether your liein or not I dont care. But lets see a dyno chart or somethin. This thread was great when it was just intelligent argument. Now you just make up stuff to support your answers. Your 20 years old a vip for ama? come on dude. This thread is now useless and should just be locked or deleted. this is my final post in here so go ahead and have the last word.

TheNewn

01-21-2008, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by XXXRACER165
So you think I lie about everything?

You...really just dont get it...do you...I swear you must be 12.

You were so obviously caught in a dumb lie you tried hard to pass off as true just to win an argument/pissing contest. You ended the post in which you lied with "THIS IS TRUE INFORMATION!!!" So make no mistake what you were trying to do.

That one act lost you all credibility on anything you say now, it's very obvious you WOULD stoop so low as to completely bold face lie just to make other people think you're right.

So, why should anyone assume anything you post now is anything but a lie and a waste of the time it took to read?

JimmyHoffa

01-21-2008, 11:03 PM

All right. I've got to get this in there just because. This kinda goes back to the beginning when all the logical people were theorizing about where this horsepower could be going.

I do know this: I've had a CRF450r engine and a TRX engine apart. When I was taking my engine (TRX) apart, everything looked normal. When the CRF was coming apart, I almost accidentally threw one of the gear clusters through my friend's basement wall, because it weighed about half an ounce. Way thinner gear faces. Add that issue to the weight of the axle, tires, and steel sprocket on the quad, and there's some more horsepower down the toilet. My flywheel is heavier, also, I believe. It's necessary, of course, but still matters. Also, I'm pretty sure Honda puts about twice the effort into the perfection of their bikes as compared to their quads. The bike market in general seems to be much more competitive as far as sweet mechanical innovation goes. This may be fitting... :ermm:
(allow me to veer away from sheer logic for a tick...) In my experience, I've found that about 85 - 90 percent of quad riders are pretty much clueless as far as regular maintenance goes, and have no idea what goes on inside the big aluminum thingy that gets their legs all hot. Dirt bikers tend to be far more mechanically educated and skillful on the whole, so maybe they deserve something with a little kick. I've never owned a dirt bike, but I know where my respect is.
Also, Honda has had spent quite a bit more time in possession of Factory Team MX riders than Quad riders, if I am correct. I realize that quads had their dark ages up until about a decade ago, but that is still an issue. More R&D, please.

If they just figure out how I can get more than a year and a half out of a set of Titanium valves, that'd sure be sweet...

JimmyHoffa

01-21-2008, 11:13 PM

For the people who didn't catch the "special" parts thing, there are parts that are on pro bikes that no one talking in this thread will probably ever be able to even see. It's sad, really. Oh well. Just wanted to clarify.

...If anyone can verify that the magical "HRC kit" cam is basically a CRF cam, I'd appreciate it. I've heard more than once that this is true, or at least near true, but both the sources were of questionable mental integrity. That would make me sad. Why would Honda not give us all of that pleasing power right out of the box? It probably costs them an extra few bucks to make the HRC cam... I'd even take a 200% markup on the sticker at that! Oh well. What can you do?... Besides pay 300 someodd bucks for the HRC kit, I guess :rolleyes:

CSR400EX

01-21-2008, 11:26 PM

lol i was the one that mentioned the "special" parts. it was about 2 or 3 years ago when Reed was running a 2 stroke. on his website, they listed the obvious mods and the "special" stuff. like it said "special" transmission, and "special" crank lol. but one secret that is out is for 2 strokes only, and its known as "case stuffing". HERE (http://www.fueltechusa.com/stuffing.htm) is a link that explains it.

d3ktrix

01-22-2008, 12:56 AM

someone lock this thread already

JimmyHoffa

01-22-2008, 08:19 AM

Interesting. I know my friend was talking about case stuffing when he had his RM80, (2 stroke) but I vaguely recall something about an unobtanium crank for 1st gen 450r's that normal humans couldn't purchase. Maybe I'm on crack, but I'll punch some words into google and see what I get. (Note that I am NOT talking about the wobbly-blow-up-in-your-face crank fix for the 04/05's)

Hondabeefast

01-22-2008, 04:36 PM

this thread makes me laugh :D Hahahaha :blah:

JimmyHoffa

01-22-2008, 05:16 PM

I appreciate the link CSR400ex. I didn't know exactly what case stuffing was, but it makes a lot of sense. I suppose it's the same effect that's being attempted with those blaster and 250r cranks that have the plastic fillers on the round part of the crank halves to take up space.

The only thing I could find about Honda's secret factory team advantages, is that people "closer" to Honda (team riders??) actually make/have input on decisions affecting the geometry of the machines. Supposedly, this was part of the reason for the swingarm lengthening on the 450r. It doesn't make sense to me, because I was pretty sure the factory quads don't use stock swingers?? :huh Donno about that one. I do, however, specifically remember reading articles about the Yamaha riders greatly assisting in GYTR product development, but since Honda pretty much sucks in that department, I don't know what help their riders could offer, besides a team rider saying "hey. make it faster" and then Honda made the HRC kit. They should kick it up a notch...

I'm glad nice people like Hondabeefast are taking the opportunity to throw useless double-posted insults into this conversation, which has the potential to be beneficial and teach people something. Maybe you should go do something useful, like figure out how to keep the rod on my '04 crank on the crank pin for more than 150 engine hours. I sure trust the mental integrity of somebody who uses one smiley for every 3 words.

JimmyHoffa

01-22-2008, 05:29 PM

Huh. Joe Byrd's "Factory" Honda motor is done by DASA. Apparently... we can have them do the same thing, with enough money.

INFAMOUSRACER7

01-22-2008, 10:30 PM

i got board and started lookin at the parts fisch for the trx(07) and a crf(05) and for most people thinking that these motors are the same there actually pretty different. The gears in the transmission are different i.e more or less teeth on certin gears.

knowing you can put the crf flywheels on all the trx's we know that the taper on the flywheel side of the crank is the same on the trx's and crf's but the cranks on the trx and crf have different part numbers and arnt interchangeable

The head is different too. the angle of the intake on the crf's is different then the trx's and that is all i know of for sure that is different on the head

This is just some stuff i found thought i would share.

JimmyHoffa

01-22-2008, 10:39 PM

I noticed little weird stuff too. The timing plug is in a different place on the crf, as is the transmission oil drain plug and the engine oil drain plug. I still wish somebody could tell me if the HRC cam is essentially the CRF's stock cam. I have heard this may be the case, or close to the case. It makes sense too.

INFAMOUSRACER7

01-22-2008, 10:44 PM

well this chart that i found in the cam spec thread saya thr 05 hrc is its own cam and the 06-07 hrc is just a crf cam

Brand----------Int Lift/Exh Lift -- Int Dur/Exh Dur -- Lobe Cntr Int/Lobe Cntr Exh

Stock _______.357 __ .290 __ 230deg _ 230deg ___ 105deg _ 105deg

HRC ________.390 __ .350 __ 260deg _ 260deg ___ 110deg _ 105deg

02 CRF______ .380 __ .356 __ 249deg _ 272deg ___ 106.5deg _ 107deg

04-06 CRF/06-07 HRC__ .374__.313___ 248deg__268deg

Hotcams 3 ___.409 __ .356 __ 251.5dg _ 265deg ___116 deg __ 104.5deg

Hotcams 2 ___ .397 __ .342 __ 248deg _ 268deg ___ 109.75dg _ 105.5dg

Hotcams 1 ___ .378 __ .342 __ 237deg _ 268deg ___ 109.75dg _ 105.5dg

Megacycle X1_.430 __ .385 __ 266deg _ 282deg @.040__102deg__106deg

Megacycle X2_ .412 __ .350 __ 260deg _ 268deg ___ 108deg _ 108deg

Web 613/812__.381 __ .357 __ 240deg _ 258deg ___ 110deg _ 104deg

Web 613/729__.381 __ .342 __ 240deg _ 252deg ___ 110deg _ 104deg

Web MYSTO___.432___.350 ___260deg__260deg @.50

Web 208/921__.408___.342___ 258deg__262deg @.50

Web 493/729__.415___.342____252deg__252deg @.50

Web 943/921__.356___.342____277deg__298deg @.50

Johnson_____.400 ___ .375 ___ 266deg __ 284deg @.40__108deg___108deg

Big Johnson__.430____.400 ___ 274deg___289deg @.040__110deg__110deg