Outlaw Engine Different Than Ktm 525 Xc Engine?

[scottwvu]

That's what dirtwheels said. They had the shootout between the Outlaw 525S and 525IRS. They said "It is not the same engine the KTM 525 XC uses, although we would be suprised if the KTM is any faster".

I'm confused.....I thought they were the exact same engine..:confused:

[patrickj75]

Daryl Rath whos a factory Polaris rider said they were the same. from what i can tell they look the same.

[Dale512]

I read somewhere that the countershafts are in a different location.

[patrickj75]

i know the motor mounts are different so that might put the front sprocket in a different location.

[Ogener]

as far as I've heard both engines are the same except for the motor mounts and countershaft sproket placement.

[Colby@C&DRacing]

The motors look the same on the outside, but some of the internal parts are different. KTM took what they have learned from polaris using the motor for the last few years and updated the motors they are using the the KTM quad. From what I have heard from KTM alot of the internal motors parts won't swap over

[GE4x4]

From what I have been told, the engines are the same. Polaris has only had the 525 for one year, so I can't see KTM changing all internals just in a year. They both make the same HP in stock trim. If you look at the parts diagram from both, they are identicle. You get the KTM parts diagram with the Polaris service manual.

[GE4x4]

I also know a guy who put a KTM 540 BB kit in there Outlaw and it bolted right up.

[Sparky YFZ]

They look the same to me. I have also owned a outlaw 525 and I currently own the KTM's I have had both of them apart and they look the same inside also.

[GE4x4]

I find people or mags will dog the Polaris any way they can. They will start rumors about the engines being different, so thus saying the Polaris engine isn't as good as the KTM. They just can't come to grips that the Outlaws are contenders and not pretenders. Lets just be happy we have so many choices. Also, look what Polaris is doing for racing. They support both pro and ametures and have great contingincies on top of that. No other company can say that.

[LT250_JOE]

SAME ENGINE, DIFFERENT IGNITION/CDI MAPPING.

[Toadz400]

Originally posted by Dale512
I read somewhere that the countershafts are in a different location.

Yep.

[04TRX400EX]

This thread is pretty interesting because I always thought they were the same (especially considering the Polaris engines say "KTM Racing" on the case) until I was talking to a guy at a local dealer last week who does not sell KTMs by the way. He said that KTM was disappointed by the poor quality products Polaris produces and stopped distributing engines to them. Therefore, although it says KTM on it, it is not a true KTM engine. That would explain the different internal components between the two that are apparently not interchangeable.

If the Outlaws had true KTM engines in them like those in KTM dirt bikes, they would be unstoppable which is clearly not the case. My $0.02.

[Toadz400]

Originally posted by 04TRX400EX
This thread is pretty interesting because I always thought they were the same (especially considering the Polaris engines say "KTM Racing" on the case) until I was talking to a guy at a local dealer last week who does not sell KTMs by the way. He said that KTM was disappointed by the poor quality products Polaris produces and stopped distributing engines to them. Therefore, although it says KTM on it, it is not a true KTM engine. That would explain the different internal components between the two that are apparently not interchangeable.

If the Outlaws had true KTM engines in them like those in KTM dirt bikes, they would be unstoppable which is clearly not the case. My $0.02.

I don't believe that's entirely true. Those Outlaws are very fast. Also you mention that the dealer you talked to doesn't sell KTM's. I would probably take his "information" with a grain of salt.

[04TRX400EX]

Originally posted by Toadz400
I don't believe that's entirely true. Those Outlaws are very fast. Also you mention that the dealer you talked to doesn't sell KTM's. I would probably take his "information" with a grain of salt.

I absolutely agree with you. I think the sales guy was slightly biased. As for the Outlaw's being fast - I also agree that they are pretty quick but people just don't talk about their performance like people talk about KTM's. Despite the sub-par chassis and heavier weight of the Outlaw, it should produce similar power to the KTM 525XC which from what I hear is not so. I have a hard time believing that KTM of all people would give another company all of their highly regarded engine info even if they were in some sort of joint venture. KTM had to have held back on Polaris.

[Dale512]

KTM builds the motors in Austria and ships them to Polaris, but as far as KTM is concerened they are just milking a dead engine architecture. They are moving away from the RFS engine and into the new MX4 & XC4 engine architectures.

KTM has been selling motors to Beta for their dirtbike for awhile now also.

The reason the Polaris doesnt make quite the power the KTM quad does is in the inadequate intake and more restrictive exhaust system.

[GE4x4]

Guys, the internals of both are the same Both make 39rwhp from all dyno graphs I've seen. The little difference's between both are very minor. And if you think the KTM is much faster then the Outlaw 525, you are in for a rude awakaning. I don't know where you guys are hearing the the KTM is faster by a lot. If anything it's a very little and more due to weight.

[OutlawBill]

Float bows are different the KTM is tick the Polaris looks jerry rigged

[spanky101]

... the ktm bike will be faster, not because of motor necesaraly, but due to weight and suspension being leaps and bounds ahead of the polaris.

[GE4x4]

Originally posted by spanky101
... the ktm bike will be faster, not because of motor necesaraly, but due to weight and suspension being leaps and bounds ahead of the polaris.

I would not say the Ohlins are leaps and bounds better then Fox. Look at the atvsport shootout, and the Outlaw was right there with the KTM, but $2000 less.

[Dale512]

After riding both, with extended time on the KTM I actually prefer the Polaris suspension for anything but mx riding. Of course once either are rebuilt for the rider the Ohlins on the KTM would be better only due to the Hi/Lo-Speed Adjustment.

[GE4x4]

I did not know the Ohlins had the high/low on the KTM?? Are you sure?

[04TRX400EX]

Originally posted by GE4x4
I did not know the Ohlins had the high/low on the KTM?? Are you sure?

I am 99.99% sure they do not have Hi/Low Speed compression adjustments on the factory Ohlins shocks. I believe Dale512 is mistaken.

[GE4x4]

Originally posted by 04TRX400EX
I am 99.99% sure they do not have Hi/Low Speed compression adjustments on the factory Ohlins shocks. I believe Dale512 is mistaken.


That's what I thought. I remember a lot of the specs and that I just don't remember reading. There still nice shocks, but been told they will still need to be built for your riding style. Some thought the stock was a bit stiff.

[Dale512]

You may be correct, but overall I thought the shocks on the KTM were too stiff and I feel the Polaris steers better than the KTM and is more comfortable also.

[GE4x4]

I think one mistake that KTM did with the frame is not put in any rake. Look at the Outlaws, 450R, KFX and so on and there frame is angled for rake so to take hits much better, and easier to handle the ruff stuff. I was suprised they didn't as that is the direction all are going.

[Dale512]

Yeah, thats the biggest problem with the KTM is the frontend geometry. No Rake and it could stand to be narrower at the frame. I was kind of dissappointed with the amount of bumpsteer it has.

It honestly felt very similar to my Speed in just about every way except power.

[kiwi-craig]

Dale, I hear ya, severe toe in on suspension uptravel was a disappointment, steerring damper fixed that, turn in much improved with decent camber dialed in . Really disappointed with the shocks, no better than any of the jap oem stuff. Rear sits to high and has a funny floaty action over jumps and rises.

GT thunder apparently can sort the whole deal front and rear for $740........

those outlaws haul arse and with different shocks would make a great GNCC racer.

[Quadevil]

Originally posted by kiwi-craig
Really disappointed with the shocks, no better than any of the jap oem stuff. Rear sits to high and has a funny floaty action over jumps and rises.

You're talking about the Ohlins? or the Outlaw?

[GE4x4]

Originally posted by kiwi-craig

those outlaws haul arse and with different shocks would make a great GNCC racer.

GT Thunder rebuilt stock Fox Podium X do allmost as good as top $$$ shocks. Very well for GNCC.

[kiwi-craig]

i'm taking about the ohlins, we where very dissappointed with this quads suspension, no where near as good as my axis / tcs suspended race quads (YFZ x 2 and LTR), all the magazine hype is BS........

We spent three days working on a XC 450 ahead of racing it and worked damn hard on trying to get the shocks dialed in and working. the back is raceable, the fronts have to much low speed compression damping and it simply beats the crap out of you in the rough. We've analyised extensive video footage of the bike under race conditions compared to mine and others aftermarket setups and it confirms the seat of pants diagnosis............

all I can say is the ohlins are a flash name wrapped around a very average setup.......

long story short, this unit needs revalving and respringing before being in the hunt at a serious level.

it's a pity because the rest of the unit is damn excellent, and things like valving and springing don't cost any thing extra for the companies to get "right" if they had the right inputs......

[Dale512]

You have to remember that your Axis/TCS was setup just for you whereas the KTM had to try to appease a large variety of riders. The KTM is alittle stiff for me in my opinion, but thats just me. Even the dirtbike guys get their suspension redone almost immediately and look at the technology they have stock now.

[kiwi-craig]

nah i don't buy that. the average dirtbike is way way better off the show room floor than any stock quad...........

if they are going to state race ready, then KTM needs to be doing way better than what they are offering giving the price premium they are demanding

on every quad I've owned the stock shocks are significantly over damped, whats the point of 20 clickers if they are to heavy at the lightest settings...............

Altering the piston damping shims is easy at the factory, and with plenty off clicks the stock settings, 1 click now, should be in the middle of the adjustment range and we would all be happy.............

Same with springs, there should be a selection avialable straight form the dealer to allow tuning to suit...... heck yamah did that way back in 1987 when the warrior came out, three different rear springs avialable straight of the shelf to dial it in........... pity about the rest of the crate...........

as much as i like this quad, in my opinion it's not worth the price premium as you still have to spend at least $ 700 - 800 just to get it raceable in the suspension department

[Dale512]

Thats cool if you don't buy that. The fact is that 75% of the dirtbikers I know send their suspension to be redone right off the bat. Heck, the first thing I did when I bought my GSX-R750 two years ago was send the suspension out, and all I do is ride on the street and guess what, when I get my Buell this spring I will do the same.

I agree with you. I think for XC racing, which is what its aimed at the suspension is too stiff, ecspecially in the front.

Give them time it's KTMs first crack and they will figure it out eventually.

The fact is that it is Race-Ready. You can buy it and go straight to a GNCC and race it no problem and probably do fairly well on it.

[kiwi-craig]

well there is hope anyways, I'm a consulting engineer and as part of my deal with KTM i'm providing them with a full critique on what they need to be doing better direct from the factory on these quads, hopefully it won't end up being a door stop on some middle managers desk...............

[spanky101]

if you compare this bike to any bike off the show room floor the ktm is leaps and bounds ahead of anyone imo. The stock shocks might be stiff for some, but thats why they are adjustable. They might still be stiff for alot of people after adjusting, alot has to do with peoples weight, riding ability and really how stiff or soft they like the ride. I think for a higher class rider who can actually push the bike the suspension would be perfect! but alot of the people who buy these bikes are trail riders or intermediate to lower level racers... KTM says this bike is race ready, and it is compared to everything out as of now. Look at the honda or kawi or anything else for example, you take something like that off the showroom floor and go race it, good luck my friend, the stock wheels and tires are pretty much garbage, and then no gripper seat, no teather, pretty much corked to the max motor, and whats gonna be an extremely soft suspension from the factory for racing. In my opinion ktm focused more on the racing side then they did on the trail riders side.

Thats just my opinion on this bike...

[Dale512]

I can push a bike pretty good in the woods and no matter how we adjusted the suspension it was just harsh, not a big enough range of adjustment for me but I only weigh about 165lbs Soaking wet with full gear.

Compared to the jap offerings you are correct about it being a much better starting to point, while you have a higher initial investment you still have to spend money to get the suspension revalved/resprung for you, Skids, bumpers, nerfs, beadlocks, stabilizer, and a few other odds and ends. On the Jap bikes the price difference would be made up in buying A-arms, Linkages, & a decent exhaust/Intake/Fuel System to uncork the engine.

So all in all you buy what you like and work it to make it what you want.

[Quadevil]

In Jap bikes, we have to buy almost everything: new a-arms, new tires, new exhaust, stabilizer, kill switch, new shocks, nerfs, beadlocks, skids, bumper, handler bar, seat, etc

[spanky101]

in essance it really comes down to what you want or how much you want to spend. I would love to have a ktm but it isnt smart for me bcause i plan to mx... so i still have cost of arms, shocks, tires. If i was to run xc, i would proboly pick up a ktm. I really do love the new ktms, i wish i had a reason for gettin an xc bike! haha

[Toadz400]

I think I'll pick up a Cannondale for $2000 off eBay and smoke all of you:D .

[kiwi-craig]

so spanky your spouting on how marvellous a machine it is but you dont own one or even ride / race one...........

when your got some real race time on one come back and tell us all about it.......

my 07 yfz with pipe / jet kit / filter, housers/ TCS revalves and a race axle is a way better unit "racer" than the KTM off the shop floor for slightly less dollars.

i'm an A grade mxer / gncc er, running 200lbs ready to race and the KTM is still to stiff even at the lightest settings in the front........ the engine is as flat as after 2/3rds throttle, it's significant saving grace is the bucket loads of low end and mid range grunt from the long stroke egnine configuration., the very nice chassis and great attention to details, love the hydro clutch and the front brakes are killer.

The KTM exhaust end placement is a real *****, very easy to burn your wrist if you have to haul the bike out of trouble in a gncc.........

in my opinion it's over priced for what you are really getting, and have to do to it get it truely raceable.

I get mine free to race so what the heck.............

[spanky101]

so because i do not own one, you are pretty much telling me i dont have an opinion? It may very well be stiff, and hey, go get it revalved. Like someone has posted, yah, its gonna be about 300 bucks at most to get the front revalved and sprung for your weight and riding ability. KTM proboly put a slightly too stiff spring, its their first shot at a quad and i think they have done pretty darn good at it. Do i think the bike is a bit over priced? you better believe it, but what bike isnt these days. Most serious racers i know will have their suspension revalved pretty quickly to their liking, doesnt matter if its atv or mx. A properly tuned suspension will make you faster then a quick motor as your aware of. But since your a test rider of sorts(i think?) hopefully when you suggest softening the shocks up they listen! Atleast they have someone to do real life riding/racing for them. Shows they care of the consumer.

[kiwi-craig]

the point is until you have:
a) raced one, or or even b) ridden one,

all your spouting is simply self proclaimed BS with out any factual basis........

lol...go and read your glossy brochures and post another 20 worthless posts on your opinions ..... gezus

when you have some real factual first hand true experience come and share it and add value

http://www.geocities.com/kiwijensenhealey/kiwiktm.jpg

[spanky101]

well i have rode one, so good job buddy :macho

[pred174]

for the cost of the ktm u could have urself one hell of a xc outlaw sra and still have the ktm power plus an actual warranty on it instead of 30 day

[Toadz400]

30 Day warranty?

I would also have to say I would probably get the Outlaw if I were looking for a new quad. Wow...never thought I'd hear myself say I wanted a Polaris. Times have changed...times have changed...:confused:

[kiwi-craig]

yup we are looking hard at an outlaw, but what stands out for me is the impressive build quality and attention to detail on the KTM, it is one hell of a well made piece of gear............

[jmoney45]

Can someone who owns an Outlaw or has spent time with one comment on something. Dirty wheels said they didn't like the air filter setup on either new straight axle outlaws. They say since the rear shock rides so close to the back of the carb there is no room for the air filter and box. They stated that the stock setup is inadequate and really difficult to service. Now I know DW isn't going to give props to Polaris so they may be just nit-picking. Just curious as to how true this is?

[pred174]

haven't spent anytime on a new outlaw but the way it is designed it is pretty small i'm sure the aftermarket will take care of this....and about dirt wheels, unless ur a yamaha fan i wouldn't read it

[kiwi-craig]

the airfilet setup on the straight axle outlaws is pretty pathetic, get your dealer to take the seat off one and have alook................

needs a side mounted pips and a KTM style airbox IMO

rest of the machine looks great IMO

[GE4x4]

I have the 525s, and yes the box is small. But it still makes great power, so it still works. A filter change or clean up might be more needed, do to the small filter. But looking at the hole shots the Eichner gets on it, it doesn't look like it hurts performance at all. Put a EHS lid on it, and you will have plenty of air. So yes there being nit picky. If it makes good power and runs great, what more do you need.:D

[pred174]

oh yeah forgot to mention that ct racing makes a side mount pipe for the sra outlaws

[GE4x4]

Doesn't matter where the exhaust is on the Outlaw for the air box, it's the rear shock location that makes it small. Moving the pipe won't get you a bigger air box.

[kiwi-craig]

CT and Duncan are looking at a rear airbox ala KTM, might need a shorter shock also, but needfs the side mounted pipe to implement