octane boosters......

[trx400EXtreme]

has anybody had any experience with any kind of octane booster in a quad. any problems with using them??

[250r4life]

i think its a waste of money...

i havent heard positive things about octane boosters...

my $.02

[chipworkz]

There are several parts to this subject. First part is the booster itself. I am not an expert but you need to be careful with octane boosters. Most that I have seen are made up from alcohol of one kind or another. Some of these alcohols can damage parts in your fuel system. I did have a carb go bad after using a booster in my pickup along time ago. It ate up some of the internal parts.

The second part is why do you need an octane booster? If you have a stock motor it won't really do anything for you. The higher the octane rating, the slower the gas burns. As long as you don't have pre-ignition knock, you don't really need the fuel to have a higher octane rating. If there is pre-ignition knock then yes, you do need to raise the octane rating to the point that it no longer occurs. I would run a mixture of race gas if need be but not octane booster.

This subject can get very complex and like I said I am not an expert so I will leave it at that.

[trx400EXtreme]

i was just curious because i'm gonna build my motor soon and i know i'm going high comp. but i couldn't decide between 11:1 or 12:1. 11:1 you can run pump gas, and if octane boosters workded i'd go 12:1. but since they are no good ive decided now. thanks guys.

[chipworkz]

You may still be good on pump gas with the 12:1. My KFX is 12:1 and only calls for 91 octane. I do mix 1 part 110 octane race gas with 4 parts 91 octane pump gas just to raise it up a bit. I have ran straight 91 with no problems. Find someone that runs the same engine setup that you want to and ask them what there experiences are.

Again there is a more complex side to this though. The combustion in each engine is different so 12:1 in one engine may be fine but not in another. I once read an article where they built a V8 with 13:1 and ran it on 91 octane. They used custom dome top pistons and designed it so the combustion in the cylinder flowed better and allowed it to run on 91. They were some really wicked looking pistons that were designed to create a swirl effect in the cylinder and push the gases out the valves. They were not your standard flat top pistons.

[trx400EXtreme]

no i dont think you can run pump gas with 12:1 on a 400ex. the 400ex has a very low stock comp. compared to most liquid cooled motors (i.e. your KFX). so running pump gas in a 400ex with 11:1 comp. is pushin' it. i've had countless people tell me that with 12:1 you pretty much have to run race gas. so yea, it all ties in to what you were saying about the combustion differences in motors.

[bwamos]

Octane boosters don't bump octane enough to adjust for the increased compression of the 12:1. The actual octane boost is negligable.

Where a booster says it boosts octane 9 points.. it's only actually boosting it 0.9 octane.

I'd avoid it as well. The 400ex carb is very very similar to the 300ex carb. It uses a needle valve w/ a rubber tip. The octane boosters will have a tendancy to dry out that rubber tip and that valve will start leaking over time.

If you do need a booster, do a search on Xylene and Toulene. ;)

Also you aren't really goind to feel a whole lot of difference between the 11:1 and 12:1 piston. I'd stick w/ a 10.8:1 or 11:1 piston.

[nick249420]

i just had a rebuild because of that crap
it messed up the seals on my valves and i had carbon build up on my piston and valves

[TRX450R014]

That is a subjective question....it depends on a few variables and can't be answered with a simple yes or no.Combustion efficiency, cam lobe profile,valve timing (overlap),etc can affect the octane requirements for an engine.I have been running a 13.1 piston in my 450R foralmost 4 years now and I have never run race gas... I mix in the proper amount of octane booster with 91 octane gas and I have never had any problems whatsoever.That does not mean your 400 will operate at these CR levels without additional octane....all I am saying is...just stating that octane boosters are junk or won't work is misleading and untrue....it depends on how much octane your engine will require to properly operate with the components you choose to install.

If you have access to race gas and can afford it then it would be the way to go...but if not you should check into the highest octane ratings your local gas stations have.Some have as high as 94 octane.
As for an octane booster being the cause of engine component failure....very doubtful.If that were truly the case you should sue that company for the cost of the rebuild.


http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/8274/1000405m3pw1.jpg

[GPracer2500]

Originally posted by TRX450R014
That is a subjective question....it depends on a few variables and can't be answered with a simple yes or no.Combustion efficiency, cam lobe profile,valve timing (overlap),etc can affect the octane requirements for an engine.I have been running a 13.1 piston in my 450R foralmost 4 years now and I have never run race gas... I mix in the proper amount of octane booster with 91 octane gas and I have never had any problems whatsoever.That does not mean your 400 will operate at these CR levels without additional octane....all I am saying is...just stating that octane boosters are junk or won't work is misleading and untrue....it depends on how much octane your engine will require to properly operate with the components you choose to install.

If you have access to race gas and can afford it then it would be the way to go...but if not you should check into the highest octane ratings your local gas stations have.Some have as high as 94 octane.
As for an octane booster being the cause of engine component failure....very doubtful.If that were truly the case you should sue that company for the cost of the rebuild.


http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/8274/1000405m3pw1.jpg

What octane booster do you use?

[Honda#4]

Doesnt Klotz have like an octane additive you put in fuel to make it higher,comes in like 5 to 10 gallon cans.

[Honda#4]

this is what I mean

[Toadz400]

Most octane boosters are a waste of money and are more than likely harmful to your engine. I'm talking about the majority of boosters you find at your local stores. I would do it right and run the correct fuel. You're spending money building up the engine you should be able to afford to run the correct fuel. If not, stick with the stock compression. There is no room for cheapness when it comes to your engine.

[Honda#4]

that pretty much sums it up^^^

[kbass24emtp]

I use Klotz octane booster, but this is more than just an octane booster. I use it mainly for a fuel stabalizer and for the tetraethyl lead substitute. Been using it since I bought my quad and have had no problems, but this stuff is alot different than the stuff you get at WalMart. If you think it is a waste of money give Klotz a call and talk to them. http://www.klotzlube.com/tech/KL-602.pdf

[TRX450R014]

Originally posted by Toadz400
Most octane boosters are a waste of money and are more than likely harmful to your engine. I'm talking about the majority of boosters you find at your local stores. I would do it right and run the correct fuel. You're spending money building up the engine you should be able to afford to run the correct fuel. If not, stick with the stock compression. There is no room for cheapness when it comes to your engine.




And you base this on what?

Most octane boosters are formulated and produced by major petroleum corporations that are worth billions of dollars.I assure you if their products were proven harmful to engines there would be a long line of clients down at your local corporate law firm.

As I have said....I have been using an octane booster in my 13.1 equipped engine for a long time without a single issue.If you read my sig you will see I have lots of $$ in my engine and I am far from cheap.

I am not asking you to agree with me,but unless you have proof that octane boosters are harmful to engines..then your statement lacks merit.
For those of us that used them without any problems...we are speaking from first hand experience.

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/8274/1000405m3pw1.jpg

[chipworkz]

Originally posted by TRX450R014
I am not asking you to agree with me,but unless you have proof that octane boosters are harmful to engines..then your statement lacks merit.
For those of us that used them without any problems...we are speaking from first hand experience.
[/B]

This wasn't directed at me but as I stated earlier in this thread, you DO need to be careful when using the off the shelf octane boosters. I wouldn't say they are directly harmful to the internal parts of the engine if used as directed. What I say to watch out for is damage to parts in your fuel system. I have read warnings to not use additives that contain certain types of alcohol such as wood alcohol that is in some of the octane boosters. It can damage some of the seals and internal parts that aren't designed to be used with alcohol. I DO have first hand experience of this happening to a carburetor on my truck when I was younger.

This is just a warning to watch out for and not a blanket statement that ALL octane boosters are bad.

Personally, I use 110 octane ras gas as an octane booster at 1:4 ratio with 91 pump gas. I only do this as a safety margin since I have 12:1 compression and not because I think it will give me more power or something. It ends up being around $4.50 per gallon at that ratio.

Just my .02

[Toadz400]

Originally posted by chipworkz
This wasn't directed at me but as I stated earlier in this thread, you DO need to be careful when using the off the shelf octane boosters. I wouldn't say they are directly harmful to the internal parts of the engine if used as directed. What I say to watch out for is damage to parts in your fuel system. I have read warnings to not use additives that contain certain types of alcohol such as wood alcohol that is in some of the octane boosters. It can damage some of the seals and internal parts that aren't designed to be used with alcohol. I DO have first hand experience of this happening to a carburetor on my truck when I was younger.

This is just a warning to watch out for and not a blanket statement that ALL octane boosters are bad.

Personally, I use 110 octane ras gas as an octane booster at 1:4 ratio with 91 pump gas. I only do this as a safety margin since I have 12:1 compression and not because I think it will give me more power or something. It ends up being around $4.50 per gallon at that ratio.

Just my .02

That's exactly what I was trying to say. Not all octane boosters are bad. Also, just because a company has billions of dollars does not mean it puts out a good product. I would not pick up octane booster from Wal-Mart and put it in any of my vehicles.

Also, what is the cost of octane booster vs. race gas? I believe it's more cost efficient to run a mix of premium and race gas.

[kbass24emtp]

The Klotz booster is $10.00 and I mix it at 1oz of boost to 1gal of gas. This only raises my octane by 2 1/2 numbers, but it gives me 95 octaine which my quad really runs good at.

[Toadz400]

Originally posted by kbass24emtp
The Klotz booster is $10.00 and I mix it at 1oz of boost to 1gal of gas. This only raises my octane by 2 1/2 numbers, but it gives me 95 octaine which my quad really runs good at.

Is that $10 for a gallon?

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by TRX450R014
And you base this on what?

Most octane boosters are formulated and produced by major petroleum corporations that are worth billions of dollars.I assure you if their products were proven harmful to engines there would be a long line of clients down at your local corporate law firm.

As I have said....I have been using an octane booster in my 13.1 equipped engine for a long time without a single issue.If you read my sig you will see I have lots of $$ in my engine and I am far from cheap.

I am not asking you to agree with me,but unless you have proof that octane boosters are harmful to engines..then your statement lacks merit.
For those of us that used them without any problems...we are speaking from first hand experience.

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/8274/1000405m3pw1.jpg

So again, what octane booster do you use? Why are you using it?

[kbass24emtp]

Originally posted by Toadz400
Is that $10 for a gallon?

Thats for a 16oz can.

[chipworkz]

Originally posted by kbass24emtp
The Klotz booster is $10.00 and I mix it at 1oz of boost to 1gal of gas. This only raises my octane by 2 1/2 numbers, but it gives me 95 octaine which my quad really runs good at.

After reading up on this, it does appear to be different than the alcohol octane boosters. It raises the octane by adding tetra ethyl lead (TEL). The only engine component I have found to be damaged by this is catalytic Converters. There is the whole issue of lead passioning to people and the environment but I won't get into that here.

If you want to know more about what it is read this.
Tetra Ethyl Lead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyl_lead)

[Toadz400]

Originally posted by kbass24emtp
Thats for a 16oz can.

So that's an 1/8th of a gallon for $10. So 1 gallon of that Klotz octane booster would be $80 compared to $6-10 per gallon for 110 octane fuel. Not trying to rain down on your parade but for the money you're really not gaining much by running additives. Are you sure that 1 oz. of that octane booster will boost the octane rating of the fuel by 2 points when mixed with 1 gallon? Is there a link to the site where it explains how it works?

[kbass24emtp]

Here is your link. http://www.klotzlube.com/tech/KL-602.pdf I am gaining the added lead to lube my valves and it is also a fuel system cleaner and fuel stabilizer. Also I don't think it's a waist.

[chipworkz]

Originally posted by Toadz400
So that's an 1/8th of a gallon for $10. So 1 gallon of that Klotz octane booster would be $80 compared to $6-10 per gallon for 110 octane fuel. Not trying to rain down on your parade but for the money you're really not gaining much by running additives. Are you sure that 1 oz. of that octane booster will boost the octane rating of the fuel by 2 points when mixed with 1 gallon? Is there a link to the site where it explains how it works?

You messed your math up pretty bad there. It is $10 for 16 oz but that treats 16 Gallons! That $80 gallon would treat 128 gallons!:eek2: Assume 91 octane is 3.39 per gallon.
3.39 X 16 + 10 / 16 = 4.02 per gallon for 93.5 octane fuel so 16 gallons would be $64.24.
The same 16 gallons of 110 octane VP race gas would cost me $160.
Yes there is an difference in the octane so it is not a direct equal comparison. So lets make a comparison that is more equal. I use VP 110 at a mixture of 1:4 with 91 pump gas. In theory this gives me almost 95 octane. So when you plug in the numbers we have 3.39 X 16 + 32 / 16 = 5.39 per gallon for 94.8 octane fuel so 16 gallons would be $86.24
My 5 gallons of VP 110 would make 25 gallons of treated fuel. That 25 gallons would cost me as follows:
Summary
110 race gas = $10 per gallon X 25 = $250
94.8 110/91 mix = $5.39 per gallon X 25 = $134.75
93.5 Klotz treated = $4.02 per gallon X 25 = $100.50
Lastly back to your $80 gallon of Klotz:
128 gallons of 110 race gas = $1280
128 gallons of 93.5 Klotz = $514.56

Higher octane is not necessarily better. Anything more than what it takes to not have pre-ignition knock is not going to do you any good and can even be a negative. So if you only need around 93 octane then you would be throwing away $764.44 by using 110 fuel over the Klotz treated fuel.

[kbass24emtp]

Originally posted by chipworkz
You messed your math up pretty bad there. It is $10 for 16 oz but that treats 16 Gallons! That $80 gallon would treat 128 gallons!:eek2: Assume 91 octane is 3.39 per gallon.
3.39 X 16 + 10 / 16 = 4.02 per gallon for 93.5 octane fuel so 16 gallons would be $64.24.
The same 16 gallons of 110 octane VP race gas would cost me $160.
Yes there is an difference in the octane so it is not a direct equal comparison. So lets make a comparison that is more equal. I use VP 110 at a mixture of 1:4 with 91 pump gas. In theory this gives me almost 95 octane. So when you plug in the numbers we have 3.39 X 16 + 32 / 16 = 5.39 per gallon for 94.8 octane fuel so 16 gallons would be $86.24
My 5 gallons of VP 110 would make 25 gallons of treated fuel. That 25 gallons would cost me as follows:
Summary
110 race gas = $10 per gallon X 25 = $250
94.8 110/91 mix = $5.39 per gallon X 25 = $134.75
93.5 Klotz treated = $4.02 per gallon X 25 = $100.50
Lastly back to your $80 gallon of Klotz:
128 gallons of 110 race gas = $1280
128 gallons of 93.5 Klotz = $514.56

Higher octane is not necessarily better. Anything more than what it takes to not have pre-ignition knock is not going to do you any good and can even be a negative. So if you only need around 93 octane then you would be throwing away $764.44 by using 110 fuel over the Klotz treated fuel.

I think I may be switching to Klotz since it is cheaper and as stated also acts as a fuel stabilizer.:p

Don't forget it also turns unleaded gas into leaded gas, which helps lube your valves.

[GPracer2500]

The octane booster from Klotz (the same one linked above) does not contain TEL (lead). I'm talking about this one:

http://www.klotzlube.com/prodimages/kl602.jpg

What's actually in it is anyones guess. It's ingredients are listed as petroleum distillage not otherwise specified. One thing I don't like about so many of the octane boosters out there are they don't tell you what the active ingredients are. Why? Because then it'd be too easy to figure out how little these products actually change the properties of the gasoline you're adding it to.


This product from Klotz--HiTrate Racing Gasoline Concentrate...

http://www.klotzlube.com/prodimages/kl451.jpg

....does contain some lead. It has between 0.25 and 0.50 grams of TEL per gallon. That ain't much. Mixed to the recommended concentration (1 gallon HiTrate to 9 gallons gasoline) you'll wind up with just a trace amount of lead in the mixture. If my math is right, you'd wind up with 0.05 grams of lead per gallon. Compare that with a leaded racing fuel which might contain 4.0 or even up to 6.0 grams of lead per gallon. 100LL avgas contains about 2.0 g/gal. The only reason Klotz can claim that this product is catalytic converter safe is because the final mix barely has any lead in it. Although the lead it deos contain might provide some tiny benefit, the dominant octane boosting effect is almost certainly coming from the product's aromatic hydrocarbon content. And this is there leaded product! You'd likely get nearly the same effect by simply using straight toluene or xylene. It's fine that HiTrate is using hydrocarbon content to do the bulk of its work, just realize that although there's some lead in there--it's only a trace amount.

If you want a REAL leaded octane booster (and you do, as long as your vehicle doesn't have O2 sensors or cat converters), the only option I'm aware of is Kemco Oil & Chemical's Octane Supreme 130 (http://www.kemcooil.com/product_info.php?pId=61)

http://www.kemcooil.com/newcart/images/productInfo/Octane%20Supreme2.jpg

This product contains 60 grams of lead per gallon. That's about 0.5g per oz (not gallon, oz). That is a strong enough concentration that when you add X oz of it to a gallon of gasoline, the final mix can leave you with just about whatever lead content you desire (although beyond a certain point, additional lead content stops improving octane rating).

And that's why Octane Supreme 130 is the only octane booster I think is worth a damn. Lead is the very best octane boosting additive science has ever found. But since it's incompatible with modern cars and disliked by the EPA, it's getting harder and harder to find as a lead additive. Once upon a time Octane Supreme 130 was called Lead Supreme 130 but the name was changed--presumably to keep a low profile and maintain political correctness.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d133/gpracer2500/wbill_lead_cansSmall.gif


One last thing. Be very careful about reading an octane booster label that claims to raise gasoline by X number of "points" or "numbers". That can mean anything. Typically, when a can says it raises by 15 points, their "points" are 0.15 octane "points". In other words, 92 octane gas would go to 92.15 octane, not 92 to 107 octane. It's very misleading. If the label isn't explicit in describing the increase in octane rating (not "points" or "numbers") then be very skeptical. It's probably not doing what you think it's doing.

[chipworkz]

Originally posted by GPracer2500
The octane booster from Klotz (the same one linked above) does not contain TEL (lead). I'm talking about this one:

http://www.klotzlube.com/prodimages/kl602.jpg



Your right, I messed that in the MSDS sheet. I read "Klotz Octane Booster® is a concentrated tetraethyl lead substitute" as meaning it was a lead substitute additive.
Now it is back into the same as the rest of the octane boosters category for me.
On to the research on Octane Supreme-130. :D

[TRX450R014]

Rather than get into a long rant about octane values and numbers....here is a link to a study on octane booster.

http://volvospeed.com/Reviews/octane_boosters.html

If you do a search you can find many reviews/tests on octane boosters and the reputable ones use the same formulation that the petroleum industry uses to determine octane ratings.

To answer 400exrider707s question.....I use NOS octane booster in my 450R.As to why....I am running a 13.1 piston with a +3 stroker crank which bumps my CR roughly another .5 point.

My home and shop are both located in a rural area and there are no venues for race gas locally.The closest place for me to get it is an hour away and is neither convenient,cost effective or necessary.I do run race gas in my Nitrous equipped Drag Car but I only race it a few times a year at best.I am on my 450R every chance I get.



http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/1228/1000405m3lh8.jpg

[bwamos]

Originally posted by GPracer2500
What's actually in it is anyones guess. It's ingredients are listed as petroleum distillage not otherwise specified.

Probably toluene in a pretty bottle at a 500% markup. ;)

[Toadz400]

Thanks for that information GPracer2500. I'm still sticking with my opinion that it's better to mix race gas with premium to obtain the rating you want.

I'll also have to check out that Octane Supreme 130. My grandpa's got a '60's Fairlane that needs to run on leaded gasoline.