Paddle Tire Comparison

[Grizzly_A]

I have been searching, but I'm still unable to find enough opinions on the subject yet. Can anyone help?

I see a lot of haulers and "v-shape" (sand star/devils/skates) paddles, but which one is better for what?

With all the different shapes of paddles, #s of paddles, etc. which paddles should I be looking for? I've got a stock 400ex and mostly ride along the beach and dunes, sand trails, etc. I don't do any racing or dragging.

Haulers, Geckos, Sand Stars/Devils/Skates, etc.

What paddle shapes are best for each riding environment?
What # of paddles is best for a 400?

[Titanium]

Sandstar 8 paddle would probably be the best for your quad. 20" size too. dont want to big of a tire on there or to many paddles or they will bog you down pretty bad.

[250r4life]

Originally posted by Titanium
Sandstar 8 paddle would probably be the best for your quad. 20" size too. dont want to big of a tire on there or to many paddles or they will bog you down pretty bad.

thats what i would reccomend... that or sand sharks, although the star will give you better hook up and wheelie ability

[Grizzly_A]

Thank you, so why does the sand star shape provide a good hookup over a hauler or gecko?

Does the shape of the paddles handle differently?

What does the shape of the hauler/gecko mean on the sand? Poor side-hill capability, odd turns, squirmy backend?

I have no idea. I have always ridden knobbies up to this point. I see a lot of paddles out there, so there must be something other than cost and bragging rights to paddle selection.
I know I see a lot of haulers on Banshees, but I thought that was for them racing or straight-hill climbing.

:confused:

[cataway]

sand stars? for a 400!! way to agreasive ,and heavey . skats ,some thing in a 6 paddle 20X10X8 .
gecko's are way to tall of a tire ,great for wheelies their also rather narrow, seam to dig holes before ya get moving , tho i like them better than trackers

[trx400EXtreme]

between sand sharks and sand stars def. get the sand sharks. ive run both at least two times. there is NO diference. the only thing your paying extra for with the sand stars is the better brand name. its not worth the extra $ IMO.

[Grizzly_A]

Thanks for that information!

So Geckos: a bit narrow, too tall, seem to dig a hole before you get going, and great for wheelies. Prefer the Geckos over the Kenda Trakkers (semi-v paddle shape).

Sand Sharks: Same performance/handing as the ITP Sand Stars, but less costly.

Kenda Dune Runner/GBC Sand Devil/Skat-Trak Hauler/Extreme: Lighter weight, wider tread pattern, better bite in sand?

Would this be better as a poll?

Which tire would allow for the most slippage if side-hilling?

[Titanium]

Originally posted by cataway
sand stars? for a 400!! way to agreasive ,and heavey . skats ,some thing in a 6 paddle 20X10X8 .
gecko's are way to tall of a tire ,great for wheelies their also rather narrow, seam to dig holes before ya get moving , tho i like them better than trackers

i ran sand stars on my KFX 400 and it didnt bog me down any. All i had was a full exhaust system and a different filter and a little carb work done and i was beating 450's with the same amount of work done as me if not more(depending on the riders ability). So im pretty sure he'll be fine. Sandstars are not heavy either. Cataway didn't direct which model of Skats but a V paddle skat which is called "Edge" if i remember right would probably be better for you if you had your heart set on Skat. A Straight paddle would be better if you were mainly just drag racing.

[Grizzly_A]

My Bro-in-law runs haulers on his 'shee, and I have an opportunity to get either Sand Stars (20x11x10) or the Geckos (21x11x9).

My riding terrain is sand trails, open dunes, tree shots and regular dune climbing. Not any sort dragging or racing.

[GPracer2500]

I don't like Geckos. Heavy as heck and way too much traction--especially for a stock 400EX. Paddle tires need to spin a certain amount to work effectively beyond a certain speed. If you don't ride aggressively you may never notice. But back to back runs up a long steep sand hill vs. a better suited paddle would show the difference. Geckos will bog sooner and force a downshift that another paddle may not need.

Between those two I'd go for the Sand Stars. Although, my personal choice for a stockish 400EX would be an 8" rim and a 6 paddle Hauler or maybe even a 7 or 8 paddle glider.

FWIW, Sand Sharks performed so poorly on my 250r vs. a 6 paddle hauler I started cutting down the Sand Sharks to find better performance. 5lbs of carcass rubber (from each tire) and 1/2 the original paddle height later, I had a "faster" paddle tire. This was before the final cuts to the paddle height:

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/6854/p2110177mediumzx7.jpg

But I'm not sure I'd agree that Sand Sharks equal Sand Stars in performance. I've run Sand Stars and 6 paddle haulers back to back on an LT-R450 and the haulers where faster up the hill. But I'd expect there to be a bigger difference with Sand Sharks vs. 6 Haulers.


In general, my experience has been budget paddles (Geckos, Sand Sharks, Dune Hoppers, etc.) are low performing paddles. They're just too heavy and too aggressive. Higher priced paddles (Skat Tracks, STU's) are faster and "better" all around with Sand Stars kinda falling in the middle.

All that aside: riding style, personal preference, and differing dune locations (CA, OR, UT, OK, etc) can matter. There is no perfect paddle for every person and situation.

[cataway]

exactly
i cant tell ya how many times i have lined up with guys that have looked down on me for running a 6 paddle tire and i bust them off the line, guys if you cant do a 2nd gear start with your quad then
you have to much tire,its just that simple.

if your just going to ride around it does not matter what tire you use , save some money and get the cheapest thing ya can get, i have run geckos they do work its just to easy to pull a wheelie
with them .ya my think it looks cool to have the wheels in the air
but, you are also out of control and when your out of control you have to slow down,and if you wheelie from a start line your done,
you dont want that front wheel to come up more than 8 inches.

[cjkranz]

"you dont want that front wheel to come up more than 8 inches."

What is so special about 8"?? Can you steer it when its 7" off the ground? Is it slower at 9" off the ground??
:confused: Just need some clarification...

As for the paddles, a good all around V-paddle is recommended.. Sand Skate II, Sand Stars, Sand Sharks.. Any of those 3 would be a great paddle..

[cataway]

i did not say it had to be 8'' 6'' is even better. it shows that your getting traction, a little lift transfers weight to the rear tire which by the time the front wheels are tiring to come up your moving, rear wheels are spinning faster ,gravity is pulling the front down ,your in control, time to shift and tuck down .
you dont have to worry about where your going as you know were your going ,your in control.
in a drag race if you get to much traction the wheels come up and you have to hope it does not keep coming up or it will come over,or you have to back off to get it down ,by then your toast and the race is over .

[cjkranz]

Thanks for the clarification.:D

[Grizzly_A]

What is the effect of 6 paddles vs. 8-9 paddles?

[GPracer2500]

Originally posted by Grizzly_A
What is the effect of 6 paddles vs. 8-9 paddles?

Simple answer: more paddles = more available traction.




And then my rambling, opinionated answer....

To run an aggressive tire with tall and/or numerous paddles you need lots of engine. But even then, you'll still see plenty of really fast full-on up-hill drag quads running (what seems like) surprisingly few paddles. It's tempting to run mean-looking tires that bristle with paddles. But I've seen many a quad slowed down by their tires.

Unlike most off-roading terrains, in the sand there is such a thing as too much traction. An aggressive paddle tire can get so much traction you will quickly overwhelm the engine's ability to spin the tires. You wind up robbing power and speed from your machine. This is particularly pronounced when climbing big, steep hills. You've got to be able to keep the tires spinning and stay on top of whatever gear your in. Too much traction will just bog you down.

Too much traction hurts your ability to turn with the rear end too. Many will say a straight paddled Skat-Trak isn't a very good general duning tire and a V-paddle is better. The idea is a straight paddle hooks up too well and causes understeer (basically, you hit the gas in a turn and the front end just pushes straight ahead instead of going where your front tires are pointed). But I've found this is largely mitigated by not overpaddling your machine. If your engine can spin the rear tires you can get the rear end to step-out as needed for good turning.

In my experience, most people are overpaddled and never even know it. I know my old 400EX was overpaddled for a long time before I started experimenting with different setups. I just never knew any better.

There is some compromise in all of that ^. Too few paddles can get hard to wheelie and demands new (and perhaps slower) techniques for launching quickly. The upshot is your 3rd, 4th, and 5th gear performance will be much improved. So the trick is to find a middle ground that does everything pretty well. This is where a 20x10x8 6 paddle Hauler can shine as a good general purpose tire. They've got good out-of-the-hole traction but will still spin up well in taller gears and higher speeds. They reach well into both ends of the spectrum. I'd be happy to use a 6 Hauler on machines ranging anywhere from 30 to 50 hp, two stroke or four (although I might want more on a 50hp Banshee since they naturally spin-up so well). There's not many tires I'd say that about.

Also, when comparing paddle counts it's best to try and keep it apples to apples. In other words, a 6 paddle Hauler won't be the same as a 6 paddle Hauler Extreme which won't be the same as a 6 paddle Glider which won't be the same as a 6 paddle STU Padla Brat....you get the idea. It's not all about the paddle count--other aspects of the tires and wheels play a role too.

[Grizzly_A]

Cool, thanks for the info. It sounds like you have ridden several different tires and know what you like and how it performs.

[GPracer2500]

Originally posted by Grizzly_A
....It sounds like you have ridden several different tires and know what you like and how it performs.

That's the only way to do it, IMO. If you're not testing you're just guessing.

It's just a pain because who has a sampling of different paddles laying around they can try back to back? It really helps to swap paddles around with your riding buddies--assuming your not all running similar paddles, of course. Plus, you have to be motivated to test because swapping paddles at the hill can be a pain. A cordless impact wrench helps. So does a buddy on a "control" bike that can be the yardstick for speed going up the hill. Turning, responsiveness, pulling a tall gear through the flatland, etc. can be done without a control but when going up the hill you can't always be sure if you're faster or slower without actually racing something consistent.

Here's a buddy chilling after an afternoon of testing.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d133/gpracer2500/Dunes/P4040068Medium.jpg

We camped right at the bottom of a hill so we could do some testing right from camp. Although, normally I like doing most hill testing at Olds.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d133/gpracer2500/Dunes/P4030042Medium.jpg

[Grizzly_A]

That's awesome!

I think it would take some discipline to do that much testing...I think if I were where you guys were camped, I'd be tempted to just go out and ride!

Though, your experiences testing the different tires is valuable, but you're right, how many different tires would most of us have at our disposal to test?

Thanks for the write-up and pics. :)

[250r4life]

check out ol' Ruf chillin there...

if you need a test rider for your experiments, you know me- i never get tired of draggin the hill... :devil:

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by cataway
if your just going to ride around it does not matter what tire you use , save some money and get the cheapest thing ya can get,


Not to belittle GPracer's experience and research, but this is really the best advice I've heard so far.

I can't tell you how many people I have seen with an expensive set of Haulers on an otherwise stock 400EX. Or worse, make fun of somebody else with a set of Geckos, when that person with the Geckos is clearly a better rider.

Any set of paddles will give you significantly better traction than a set of knobbies. And although the 400EX is one of my favorite machines of all time, it ain't going to win any drag races. Forget your launch capabilities, tire weight, ect ect.


That's just my two cents. I rode for many years on some really cheap paddles, and had a blast with it. I bought a nice set of Haulers, and it increased performance a bit, but it didn't really add significantly to my overall enjoyment.

Unless you're made of money, forget the $300 paddles. I'd say you'd have more fun with a $150 set of paddles and $150 worth of beer, food, and good company.

[250r4life]

i agree to an extent...

i am at the dunes a dozen times a year, and spend a lot of time dragging the hill, and i still just have sand stars... i'm not about to go spend a few hundred more to be a little bit faster up the hill...

with that being said, there are a handful of paddles out there that I ABSOLUTELY WOULD NOT ever use... the gecko and "sand gear" paddles happen to be two of them...

i still maintain that the sand shark is one of my favorite tires to ride on... i like the sand star better as i rarely ride on all 4 wheels, and they have a little better bite... but as far as being able to throw your rear end around, and being able to grab sand, the sand shark is a great economical paddle...

[250r4life]

Originally posted by trx400EXtreme
between sand sharks and sand stars def. get the sand sharks. ive run both at least two times. there is NO diference. the only thing your paying extra for with the sand stars is the better brand name. its not worth the extra $ IMO.

i dont agree... the sand stars will hook up better, and will lift your front end up easier... i also think you can throw around the rear end easier with the sand sharks then with the sand stars...

[250r4life]

after reading what people write, cataway for instance, it reminds me that a lot of people just need to learn how to ride...

i cant think of too many bikes that even stock i couldnt launch in 2nd with say a sand star...

and keeping that front end down has more to do with the rider than the paddle...

[glamiskid395]

between sand star and sand shark, get the sharks, (20x11x10)
they have great hook up and can pull the front end up easy enough in 1-3 gear from low RPMs.

ive put sand stars (20x11x10) on my 400 and i cannot throw the rear end around as easily. they provide better hook up but i would rather be able to throw the rear end around then to wheelie easier.

also look into sand skate IIs. they cost a little mroe than sand shark but will last longer and they are a good middle between sharks and stars, the paddle is cupped a little more then the sharks but they can still be slid around easier than the stars

[asa400ex]

Sand Skate II's by far are the best.

Much more in money but worth every penny. Like people have said shark's slide more while sand stars grab more. Sand star paddles have cheap rubber, tends to crack or break. Sand stars are great paddles but break done easy over time and hook up great. Almost to good for a 400ex. Another good thing about SSII's is they are much lighter. And thats a good thing for the 400ex.

My .02 cents SSII's

[EPDP99]

i have ridden on sand sharks, sand skate 2 and hauler 8 paddle extremes. The best were the sand skates. this is with a highly modded 400ex. I really dont like the haulers as its way too much paddle for me. I was reccomended them but they drag bad on top end. I will be switching to some regular 6 paddle haulers next. I say sand skate 2 for all around riding.....

[shelbyj2006]

I think Sand Stars a too much paddle for a 400cc quad. They have more paddle area than an 8 paddle hauler. Most of you wouldn't think of running an 8 paddle hauler, but wouldn't think twice about using sand stars.

I would recomend an 8 paddle glidder for a 400, even if you have a few mods. I know guys with 450s that run glidders and LOVE them. They have tried all types of paddles. Most guys who runs sand stars have never run anything else, so how can they say they are the best?

[cbrooks118]

I will throw my hat in the ring here....

I dont know everyone's dunes as i have only ridden waynoka, where the sand is very fine and you get off the bike and can sink 4 inches down. In this particular envrionment i have ridden a mostly stock 400ex on 8 paddle haulers, 8 paddle edges, and sand stars. I prefer the skat traks better (edges and Hualers) to the sand stars. The sand stars seemed to dig down before catching traction. I think the Skat Traks preformed better because the actual paddle part is taller. Now the only difference i noticed between the hauler and edge was that the edge performed better for the twisty trails, where the hauler you had to anticpate turns earlier.... Both worked great for me. Again, this is at Waynoka where the sand is bery "loose". Other dunes might offer a different type of sand which the 8 paddle could be way to much.

On another topic i would reccommend front dune tires with a lip like the dune tracker. It helps tremendously on navigating turnes to get that grip needed to swing the back end around.

On my YFZ, I am running 9 paddle extremes with mohaks up front. I probably would not have bought a 9 paddle tire, but it was already with the bike when i bought it and i did not want to spend any money. They do pretty good up until 5th, then it bogs me down. I might throw the 8 paddle haulers on there for next trip to compare/contrast..

Like it was mentioned on earlier post, any paddle is gonna be better than a knobbie period. I knwo ike many of you me and my friends switch rides all day in the dunes... I have ridden bikes with gecko's, skates,sidewinders, and almost every other tire out there. The only ONE i have found that i would rather ride knobbires than a paddle is the GBC paddle master.... (they're made for mud, a buddy found out after he got them for his rappy)
No one in my group would ever ridicule you on your paddle choice, as long as your there to have fun like us

[tp300ex]

i have 20" gliders 6 paddles is that to small to be running on a piped 400ex?

[zdowell]

cbrooks118. I am going to Little Sahara sometime middle of may, you would recommend i get the edgers or haulers then? Its for a mostly stock 400ex. K&N filter and e-series pipe. Another question for you is how do razr's do on the front? This will probably be the first and last time i go to the dunes(more than likely...) Just curious on how they do in the sand. They are almost brand new.

[cbrooks118]

You should be fine on the fronts. The smooth or ribbed tires on the front just help to float through the sand a little better, but not worth the money if you hardly ever go to the dunes. They will be fine.

Now as far as the paddles go. If your just going once, then i would suggest borrowing a set of anything. No need to spend money if you dont have to. Any paddle will be better than a knobbie, but I see people out there all the time in knobbies making it up everything, so you can run your knobbies, but just have to work a little harder.

If your dead set on buying a set, i would probaly go with the edges. (You can always resell a set of skat traks) They are a great "v" paddle for multi-purpose. Let's face it, the haulers are mainly for drag and straightline riding, and no 400ex's are out there winning drag races anymore, so... Also i would go with an 8 paddle. Why you ask? Sure six is probably optimal for a near stock 400ex, but 8 works just fine... if your like me, there is a large probability that my wife will move up to a 450 someday, then i already have a set of paddles for her.
(in fact i have accumulated enough paddles to keep for all my bikes)

I almost laughed when i read that it will be your only trip. I have friends who said that their first time that it was too far, wouldnt be that better than the river (our local riding area)....Now they are the ones calling and telling me to load up to make the 4 hour trip to waynoka every couple of months. Sand is addicting......

[zdowell]

thanks for the reply. Who knows I might go back some day. I figure that i will just keep the tires for when we get deep snow around here in iowa. I can't wait to go, sucks though it is 740 miles just to get there. gonna be like 144 gallons of diesel when we are are done. little bit pricey.

[Motofool250r]

okay ive rode on sand skate II for 2 years, moms bike has sand devils, rode on edges, gliders, haulers, taller haulers and many more

a straight paddle is needed for higher horse machines, machines above 50horse the v paddles just dont cut it

i have a medium built R and run 8 paddle haulers

for 4 strokes of the mild or stock variety a v paddle would be a good match doesn't provide too much traction and you can still spin them good if needed.

a v paddle will give increased ability to side hill meaning your bike wont have a tendancy for the rear tires to drop down,

a straight paddle only has traction straight so your rear end will drop down and be more challenging to shoot the bowl at LOW speeds

myself i like drag racing but i like most is the tree shots in oregon where traction is king if i didn't do these i would run sand skate II's or another v paddle

another thing to think about is a molded tire design will out last a vulcanized tire in most conditions skat traks tear easy and wear out fast if you ride on pavement much (in camp ground)

another thing to think about is tire pressure more pressure = less traction

i run between 1.5PSI and 3PSI in my haulers ocassionally i will run 4-6 PSI

then there is wheel size a smaller wheel will let your tire sit flatter on the sand and give you more traction then a larger wheel with will flatten the tire and make it more stiff. think of this in say drag racing slicks they use soft side walls so the tires can flex and get more traction so the larger the side wall the better traction you will get.