kawi and honda...

[woodsracer144]

this is a post on the stuff at the end on the "show off your 250r" post oon here about the trxkx250 motor in the R for the factoy riders...

[mineralgrey01gt]

so a KX250 engine will fit in a 250r? Or what is this kawi and honda stuff about?

[my88r]

Originally posted by mineralgrey01gt
so a KX250 engine will fit in a 250r? Or what is this kawi and honda stuff about?

kawi had a prototype in 99 with a full roll design setup with a kx250 motor. doug roll built the chassis to incorporate the kx 250 motor.

[pimpt250r]

its the reason the my R ended up green ,,but didnt william yokley do the same thing

[woodsracer144]

yeah both of them had that...

[Waynoka Local]

Here's what I have learned in my research, and trust me, I've done a lot of research about these quads. Get ready because this is a long ride.


In the mid to late nineties, Kawasaki was experimenting with the idea of resurrecting a two-stroke high-performance ATV. They wanted to base the engine on the current KX250 powerplant, so they decided to use it in its stock form for a prototype. Rather than spend time and money on R&D for a new chassis, they contacted Doug Roll of Roll Design. A chassis was specifically built for the KX250 engine, and the ball was rolling. Kawasaki and Roll Design have a history of working together, so the choice was natural. The gullwing a-arms that were standard on the 88 Tecate-4 were designed by Doug Roll, and he played a major role in developing the factory rides for Jimmy White.

Fast forward through the "dark days of performance" of the mid-nineties to late 1998. Honda dropped a bombshell - the TRX400EX. Tame by today's standards, but it was the "shot heard 'round the world" for high-performance ATV riders. This signaled the re-emergence of the high-performance market. Kawasaki didn't take long to respond by releasing a few pics to whet the public's appetite while the KXF250-01 was being built at Roll Design. The 01 designation meant it was the first model. Subsequent models were designated 02 and 03, so it has nothing to do with the year they were built. As far as I know, there were never any 04 models built. As expected, reaction was swift and strong. Dealers were flooded with calls and visitors asking the same thing: "When can I buy one?"

The final versions of the quads used a Roll Design Lobo II chassis, Custom Axis long-travel shocks, ITP Holeshot tires and T-9 wheels, W.E.R. steering dampers mounted on a custom bracket, IMS high-capacity dry break TRX250R fuel tanks, KSF250 Mojave front fenders, 86-87 KXT250 Tecate three wheeler rear fenders, and a TRX250R seat. Carbon fiber airboxes were experimented with, but they got holes worn in them from the rider's boot, so they were modified and then later changed to aluminum.

The quad debuted for the 1999 GNCC season with factory pilot Bill Ballance onboard. He piloted it for the 1999 season only, then went back to a TRX250R for 2000, so William Yokley was picked up and put in the pilot's seat for 2000 and 2001. It had a few teething problems, but they were dealt with and fixed. The quad was very fast and had a ton of power over a wide spread. The only nagging problem was the vibration. Without a counter-balancer, they would rattle and shake like no other, but they came up with some ingenious ways of damping the vibes down, such as covering the tie rods with clear rubber and filling the steering stem with silicone. These mods helped, but never cured the vibration. It eventually began to take its toll on the riders, and the last few quads built had TRX250R engines in them. Why Kawasaki didn't use a Tecate-4 engine is beyond me.

During the time these quads were being raced, the enviro-terrorists known as the EPA started to focus entirely too much attention on two-stroke exhaust emissions. It's much easier to kill off a small segment of an overall large population than going after a big one, so two-strokes were coming under increasing pressure to either clean up (lots of money) or be killed off by their manufacturers (free). We all know what happened as a result. Kawasaki, having direct communication with the EPA, knew what was going on and decided to eventually adapt the powerplant from their future 450cc four-stroke motocross bike for ATV use. So they relegated the Roll quads to PR status, just something to show the public that Kawasaki was still around and promised to produce a high-performance quad in the future, which we now have as the KFX450R. The influences from the Roll quads are so evident in the KFX450R that even Helen Keller could see them.

Two versions of the quads were built: Numerous GNCC racers and a one-off version built for Jimmy White for the Legends 2000 TT race held in Ashtabula, OH, in 2000. The JW quad was later tested in the dunes at Pismo by Dirtwheels magazine. Every time the quads were tested by a magazine, the vibration was mentioned, but the Pismo test was the most critical, going so far as to call it "painful." The GNCC quads had several changes made each season, most notably going to a standard front brake reservoir from the Ninja streetbike part on the first models, an 18" swingarm from a 19", and Pro Circuit pipes and silencers from factory pipes and modified KX250 silencers. Only two are known to exist today. One is at Chris Grissom Racing in Kentucky, and it was the last quad built for William Yokley. CGR did the engine prep work for the GNCC quads. Chris told me that William turned down a $20K offer for it. As far as I know, it is still in CGR's showroom at his shop. His website has appearantly disappeared. The other is at Roll Design. I requested some detail pics of it from an employee a while back. He promised me some, but as is typical of most people today, he never got them for me.

I have several magazines that these quads were tested in, and I'm still looking for some more. Being the rabid Kawasaki and ATV nut that I am, I have tried to gather as much information about these as I possibly can. If I'm ever at Ft. Campbell, I plan on taking a trip to CGR and photographing the one he has. I have spent countless hours searching the net for pics, and I have un-earthed a few more than are in the other thread. Those pics will be posted below.

[Waynoka Local]

I'll start with the GNCC quad pics I have first, then post the pics of the Jimmy White TT quad. All of the GNCC pics are of William Yokley.

[Waynoka Local]

Getting a drink.

[Waynoka Local]

I love this pic. Look close. This is a TRX250R-powered version.

[my88r]

^^^ good luck to you on your research. keep us posted.:macho

[Waynoka Local]

Stare down at speed.

[Waynoka Local]

Hammer down. TRX250R engine again.

[Waynoka Local]

Coming back into the woods.

[Waynoka Local]

These were posted in the "Show your 250R thread, but I'll post them here so you don't have to flip-flop between threads. This is the TT quad built for Jimmy White and the Legends 2000 race.

[Waynoka Local]

Nice profile shot. Notice the gap between the front fenders and the seat. This is because the fenders are from a Mojave and the seat is from a TRX250R.

[Waynoka Local]

On the line and ready to go. Todd Williams is on JW's right.

[Waynoka Local]

Chasing Allen Knowles around the off-camber.

[Waynoka Local]

Sandwiched between Tim Helter and Donny Banks. I'll post pics of Tim's quad in a bit.

[Waynoka Local]

Going around another off-camber.

[Waynoka Local]

I found this one on the Custom Axis website. The mount for the steering damper is the aluminum plate bolted to the front downtubes of the chassis. Interestingly, this quad has Maxxis Razrs instead of ITP Holeshots. I don't remember seeing any of the race quads with Razrs, but my magazines are 7000 miles away, so I can't flip through them to see.

[Waynoka Local]

This is Tim Helter's quad that he raced at the Legends 2000 TT race. It is powered by a KX250 engine, but it uses a Lone Star chassis, Works shocks, and Maier TRX250R plastic. Tim was a factory rider along with JW on the Tecate three wheelers, and ran in the 250 and 200 Pro classes. I have no idea how this quad came to be. Who knows? Maybe kawasaki hooked him up with an engine and he bought the chassis.

[Waynoka Local]

I wonder what he's thinking here.

[Waynoka Local]

Leading JW and Donny Banks. Not bad form for a guy who hadn't raced in a very long time.

[Waynoka Local]

That's it for the pics I have. I need to scan the tests in my magazines when I get back. If anyone has any pics of these things at all, please post them here. They can be from other websites or from you personally, I don't mind either way.

[my88r]

Originally posted by Waynoka Local
That's it for the pics I have. I need to scan the tests in my magazines when I get back. If anyone has any pics of these things at all, please post them here. They can be from other websites or from you personally, I don't mind either way.

i have a few tapes from the 01 gncc series. with alot of good footage of the kawi. if you want. when you get back i can send them to you to watch. then when your done send them back.lol

[Waynoka Local]

I just wrote myself a note in my build-up list. I'll definitely get in touch with you when I'm back in the States in about 7 1/2 months (fingers crossed).

[my88r]

Originally posted by Waynoka Local
I just wrote myself a note in my build-up list. I'll definitely get in touch with you when I'm back in the States in about 7 1/2 months (fingers crossed).

sure they will be here just get in touch with me. nice pics also:macho

[atvmxr]

so at some point, the factory kawaski race team was racing 250rs with the only Kawaski part being the Tecate/Mojave fenders? wow :blah:

[deathman53]

I also wonder why they didn't use tecate-4 motor, aside from the cases and counterbalancer, they aren't too far apart from the kx250.

[woodsracer144]

post that film on here...

they did use the tecate 4 motor because it wasnt that much of a up date... the kx motor was updated ever somany years, and it was already PVed stock i think, the bike motor would go much faster also being it was built for a really light chassie so it has more HP like people puttine CRF motors in 250r chassies... thats MO...

[Rich250RRacer]

Originally posted by woodsracer144
post that film on here...

they did use the tecate 4 motor because it wasnt that much of a up date... the kx motor was updated ever somany years, and it was already PVed stock i think, the bike motor would go much faster also being it was built for a really light chassie so it has more HP like people puttine CRF motors in 250r chassies... thats MO...

The 86-87 Tecate 3 and the Tecate 4 were both power-valved, but the three wheeler motor ran much better since it was basically a KX motor, no counterbalancer. I don't think the Tecate 4 motor ran as well with the addition of the counterbalancer.

[Waynoka Local]

Actually, the counter-balancer didn't really affect the performance of the Tecate-4's engine. It was still the fastest revving, hardest hitting, and most powerful 250 produced, even though it had zero bottom end grunt. It was a top end screamer, much like the two previous versions of the T-3.

Yes, the KX engine was powervalved, but the reason it had more power than the T-4 engine is due to the fact that it had received constant updates since it was totally redesigned in 1992. If anything, being stuck in a quad chassis made it slower because its gear ratios were optimized to work with a 230lb motorcycle, not a 300lb quad. Many tests noted the large gap between gears, but Kawasaki wasn't going to spend the money to build a transmission specifically for the quads when they had no plans for a production run.

What I mean by saying that I don't know why they didn't use T-4 engines was that I don't understand why they used a 250R engine after the ill effects of the KX's vibration came to light. I think it's great that they used the KX, but I don't get why they replaced it with a 250R instead of a T-4. More than likely, they didn't use the T-4 because very few people know how to work on them, and the parts availability for the 250R, even compared to the resources of Kawasaki, were enough to sway them to choose it. Who knows, maybe they thought that the fans wouldn't know the difference, much like NHRA Fuel Funny Cars. Every one of them is powered by a version of the Chrysler 426 Hemi, regardless of the body over them. So yes, John Force drives a Mopar even though it has a Ford Mustang body, and William Yokley rode a Honda, even though it said Kawasaki all over it.

True, they could have mated the KX's top end to the T-4's bottom end, as has been done before, but they were interested in highlighting their newest two-stroke technology, so that would have been a step backwards. They also had no plans to produce it, so the extra engine work was deemed unnecessary. I'm sure they were looking into adapting a counter-balancer to the KX and revising its transmission, but once the enviro-terrorists started beating their war drum, they cancelled any plans for production. That's all a theory, so I could be wrong, but it makes sense to me.

[chris46250r]

... and to make a long story short, they just wanted a first place trophy. :D

[woodsracer144]

imo... i think that kawi should of had the bottom end off the T-4 and put a KX top end... thats what a buddys KX/T-4/ KFX400 was stet up... he had the T-4 bottom end and a Kx top... i think that they should tried to put a 4-stroke. or something in them once honda came out with the 400... i also think that suzuki should made something out of the RM 250 motor... i dont like the LT 250 motor at all i dont like that quad at all... i dont know...

why didnt they put the KX 500 motor in them?

[TWILES]

Chris Grissom's place is in Paris, TN. Not Kentucky. I haven't been in there in a couple of years but that bike was there then. I felt sorry for him one night at a race. He had it sitting next to the fence and it was COLD. He kicked it till he couldn't breath and ended pushing back to the truck. Last I heard, he wasn't in the shop much. He was teaching a mechanics class the Paris highschool.

[woodsracer144]

if hes teachin a shop class i think i need to get to that school...

[TWILES]

Originally posted by woodsracer144
if hes teachin a shop class i think i need to get to that school...

I stand corrected. Its a Paris, TN tech college- I was told it was the highschool. You can go to the tech school. full story on the main page about it!

[woodsracer144]

how old is that guy i think i know what school in going to once i get done with HS... im gonna be doine something with atv's or bikes...

[TWILES]

He's not going to teach you how to build a motor.

[woodsracer144]

so that dont matter he still knows where i come from... every one
here doesnt really like who i am and tell me that i should try something els... and im not gonna change to fit in. i have one realyl good ridein buddy and he is a bit different then me... in more than one way.

[regg187]

Originally posted by woodsracer144
... i also think that suzuki should made something out of the RM 250 motor... i dont like the LT 250 motor at all i dont like that quad at all... i dont know...

why didnt they put the KX 500 motor in them?

If the 250 motor vibrated too much, then the well known Vibration monster kx500 would have been unrideable.

Back in early 84, A good friend of mine was an editor at CYCLE NEWs spinoff ATV NEWS. He brought a handbuilt, suzuki prototype lt250. it did have an rm250 motor in it, and while I only got to ride it for 2 days, it was unbelievable, remember there were no sport quads avail yet. only a 250r 3 wheeler, aircooled at that. The quad was blazingly fast and handle and jumped well. it was also VERY light. I think the motor was out of a bike built for the nationals. anyways it did rip. when the first lt250 came out in 85 I was disappionted in its perf. after riding the proto this production model just didn't compare.

Also around the same time he brought a pre-production 250r that had been given to a race shop, Selvys, who I believe helped with Hondas offroad factory team , so they could start making aftermarket performance parts for it. So when it was released the public could find hop up parts for it. It was watercooled and had real suspension. This was what later became the 85 250r rocketship. it had a pipe and silencer built for it and a diff carb. I think it was also ported slightly. that thing ran like a raped ape and handle fantastic. ultra plush ride, no tendency to flip and fast.
I was only riding motorcycles back then these things were new and fun. The suzuki really seemed like a 4 wheel motorcycle to me.

The Honda we got "busted" by the Longbeach PD ripping the 250R up and down an alley off Atlantic Ave.but the officer was an off roader too and didn't do anything but check out the 3 wheeler and just mumble wow!

I would like to know which Jimmy White is mentioned in this post, there were 2 Jimmy Whites in the Pro ranks those days, One rode for factory Tiger and the other rode for Honda and Kaw?

[woodsracer144]

what ever happened to the tiger?!?! a buddy said they make a 500CC 2-stoke some time but there super rare... i saw one with a 84 atc air cooled motor in it once on ebay...

[my88r]

Originally posted by regg187


I would like to know which Jimmy White is mentioned in this post, there were 2 Jimmy Whites in the Pro ranks those days, One rode for factory Tiger and the other rode for Honda and Kaw?

the factory kawi rider:D

[woodsracer144]

Originally posted by my88r
the factory kawi rider:D

dude how much are you on here you joined in jan of 07 and i did in 06 and you have 2000 somethin...i have likt 600 or something....

[my88r]

Originally posted by woodsracer144
dude how much are you on here you joined in jan of 07 and i did in 06 and you have 2000 somethin...i have likt 600 or something....

i usually stay on this site. i have accounts on a few others. but i like this one. i been on here one year now. so thats quit a bit of time.lol

[woodsracer144]

yeah but you must do like 20 post a day at least

[my88r]

Originally posted by woodsracer144
yeah but you must do like 20 post a day at least

no:rolleyes: 7 posts a day.

[woodsracer144]

yeah i saw that after i post that... bu still thats alot!