old ex vs new ex

[LBFD]

I was wondering if the 99-04 ex were supposed to be alot faster than the 05 and up ex? I have an open air box, jets, hmf pipe. My friend just brought a bone stock 04 ex, and in a drag race we run dead even. Ha Ha and its not the rider. If I ride his bike, I smoke him on mine. Is my bike slow or should this be right? Thanks:confused:

[AGPallstar109]

well imo i believe that the 99-04 is fatser lighter and better looking, but in horsepower, 99-04 is about 32.6, well thats what it says on the title, and the 05 and up is about 29, plus the 99-04 weighs 372 dry weight, and the 05 and up is about 386

[f4istunna]

i like the old style better too. Only thing i like about 05+ is reverse is a nice feature for a trail bike but...

I cant say which is faster but you can get nice Hp out of any year 400ex for a decent price

[XXXRACER165]

99'-04s are way better:D

[LBFD]

But my 05 has something yours 99-04 doesn't REVs.

[rodeo#11]

ah reverse is good and all but the backend on a 400ex weighs about 100lbs so u can just pick em up and throw em

[rodeo#11]

oh and 04' 400ex's are sexy enough said ;)

Actually when I talked to this guy who races this was when the 2005 models 1st came out he said if you get a quad dont get something with reverse. I asked why his response "reverse takes away horsepower and makes it heavier"

Maybe he's wrong maybe not but it seems logical to me.

[LBFD]

All this talk still doen't help much, but I guess the rev gear is robbing 3 or 4 hp. But looks don't help power sorry!:D

[LBFD]

Thanks fox honda, and thanks for not telling me 99-04 look better

[GPracer2500]

Originally posted by LBFD
...I guess the rev gear is robbing 3 or 4 hp...

I don't think so. There's no way the addition of a reverse gear is robbing 3 or 4 hp. I doubt it robs any hp.

If I were to guess I'd say the difference in power between your bikes is in the jetting.

[exrider272]

i totally agree with GPracer2500.. theres no way reverse robbing 3-4hp....


the only difference in the 99-04 and the 05-07 is the plastic and the gearing the motors been the same since 99 they havent changed it one bit

[f4istunna]

ya reverse gear in the tranny doesnt have anything to do w/ 1st-5th horsepower. Might be a tad heavier, but that doesnt affect the rotating mass of the crank.

[LBFD]

My jets are 152 main and 42 pilot and he weights about 20 pounds more than me.

[nick249420]

when you are drag racing its all about timing your shift and clutch work ( atleast it is with cars)
i dont drag quads so i wouldnt know

[LBFD]

Read first post, when I and my friend trade bikes, with me riding his bone stock 400 I will out run my bike. But if I ride my bike we run dead even after 34 drag races. Whats wrong with this?

[scruff_mcruff]

Originally posted by f4istunna
ya reverse gear in the tranny doesnt have anything to do w/ 1st-5th horsepower. Might be a tad heavier, but that doesnt affect the rotating mass of the crank.

how so? if you think about it it does effect rotational mass. its two extra gears being spun on the shafts at all times, and its one extra set of gears always touching so your gonna have extra friction. in the honda cars we would see 5-7 hp by removing 5th gear from the tranny. so id have to say that you will see 1-2 hp difference in the atvs because of it.

[<DRS>GPF]

Originally posted by scruff_mcruff
how so? if you think about it it does effect rotational mass. its two extra gears being spun on the shafts at all times, and its one extra set of gears always touching so your gonna have extra friction. in the honda cars we would see 5-7 hp by removing 5th gear from the tranny. so id have to say that you will see 1-2 hp difference in the atvs because of it.


agreed. thats makes sense..



also, dont forget that stock front sprocket changed, which makes the newer ones slower.(if all else is equal)

[boosted3g]

Something may be different with the heads also. I am in the process of doing a 450r carb install on my 07 and the peice between the carb and cylinder head (intake boot?) fits differently on my brothers 04 than on my 07. When i put my intake on the head port is larger than the opening on the intake. On his i can see about 1/16th of an inch all the way around on the inside of the intake. Both were bought new and are the stock parts. We have drag raced each other and the 07 is faster but its also 3 years newer. Either way either the castings on his 04 and my 07 are slightly different. Whether its a change at honda or simply just 2 different castings at the factory i dont know.

[07250ex]

Originally posted by AGPallstar109
well imo i believe that the 99-04 is fatser lighter and better looking, but in horsepower, 99-04 is about 32.6, well thats what it says on the title, and the 05 and up is about 29, plus the 99-04 weighs 372 dry weight, and the 05 and up is about 386

no stock aircooled 400 cc quad has 32 horspower the z400 is like 28 and its faster and more powerful than the 400ex

[LBFD]

Ya I think the stock 400ex has 25 hp.

[Ruby Soho]

the stock 400ex has 27hp. its been said and shown many times. search

[boosted3g]

I think what he is referring to is the emmissions sticker on the 05+ frames. They have "max engine power 34.2 bhp" which is taken at the engine before any driveline losses.

[GPracer2500]

The internal transmission ratios of the 05+ changed as well as the final drive gearing. Without looking at all of the actual ratios (anyone have service manual for 05+ ?), I couldn't say whether the 05+ has different overall gearing or not. It might be a little different but I'd be surprised if there's as much difference as a one tooth difference in countershaft size suggests. We have to take all the ratios into account to make a meaningful comparison.


About reverse robbing engine HP: The addition of reverse does add an additional gear to the countershaft. And then there's another little gear that connects the reverse gear to a mainshaft gear when reverse is engaged. I don't know if that secondary gear is always connected to the reverse gear though. Do you know that for sure, scruff_mcruff?

So there is additional rotational mass from the reverse gear. And if the secondary reverse gear is always engaged on one side then that too would add rotational mass plus some friction.

But I'd expect these to make tiny differences that would be difficult to measure. I can think all sorts of other sources of drag that could easily match and/or eclipse the reverse gear for robbing HP.

About the Honda car engine example: I'm suspicious that's an apples to oranges comparison. Surely 5th gear in a car is far more substantial than a 400EX's reverse gear. And are the trannys of a car and an EX even arranged the same? Perhaps on a front wheel drive car but I think many manual car tranny's use concentric input and output shafts. My point is that what produces a certain result on a Honda car might not mean the same thing (or to the same degree) regarding a 400EX's reverse.

But even if there was some kind of 1:1 comparison to be made, I'm guessing any Honda car that's had 5th removed is making some HP. So 5-7HP might be 2%? If the EX's reverse gear is costing 2%, that would be what--30hp vs. 30.5hp? Something like that? We could find that much difference between engines that rolled off the assembly line right next to each other.


My whole point here is that I don't believe the 05+'s reverse gear slows them down by any amount worth considering. I'd need to see some very persuasive evidence to convince me otherwise.

[boosted3g]

With straight cut gears there is nearly no loss in power. With the car engines the gears are helical cut to reduse noise and that will rob power. Also in a honda car tranny only the gear that is engaged will spin the rest will not except for 1st and 2nd which are part on the input and the main shafts, they will spin in every gear. The reverse will also disengage in the car trannys. My years of racing a pro fwd honda are finally paying off.

[03trx400]

a bone stock '05 vs. a stock '04 the '05 is quicker. It may be a few pounds heavier, but they changed around the internal gearing a little bit which makes it a little quicker and a little bit faster on the top end from what ive read...theres been tons of topics about this. ive got an '03 too...so its not like im biased towards the '05's...i like the older ones alot more..

[boosted3g]

heres actually a pic of one of old honda trannys with 5th gear removed. The red peice removes 5th gear and holds the 2 shafts together because the helical cut wants to push them apart. Hense why straight cut gears dont rob barely any power.

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee9/exriders/hondatranny.jpg


Heres my old racecar. Brings back memories. Sold it 2 years and 3 months ago. 844whp and 604 ft lbs or torque on a super conservative tune.

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee9/exriders/racecar.jpg

[LBFD]

I've out ran stock 05 and 06 and even a piped 06, But never raced and 99- 04 till last week. His 04 is bone stock and faster than mine with jets pipe an open air box. Thanks for the replies

dang whats that car run in the 1/4?

[GPracer2500]

Nice pics and info boosted3g.

[boosted3g]

quickest pass 8.71
fastest 171 mph out of gear on the limiter

dang thats a quick car! what motor is in it?

[Hondamaster5505]

Originally posted by boosted3g
quickest pass 8.71
fastest 171 mph out of gear on the limiter

:eek2:Holy Crap!:eek2:

I've always wanted to try and drive something like that:devil:

[boosted3g]

FoxHondaRider- Its a strange engine combo. ls/vtec long rod deckplate.

[scruff_mcruff]

Originally posted by boosted3g
[B]heres actually a pic of one of old honda trannys with 5th gear removed. The red peice removes 5th gear and holds the 2 shafts together because the helical cut wants to push them apart. Hense why straight cut gears dont rob barely any power.

straight cuts dont rob power because of less friction, they actually push apart worse than helical cuts. is it easier to pull your hands apart when your fingers and palms are touching or when your fingers are interlocked?

[scruff_mcruff]

Originally posted by GPracer2500

About reverse robbing engine HP: The addition of reverse does add an additional gear to the countershaft. And then there's another little gear that connects the reverse gear to a mainshaft gear when reverse is engaged. I don't know if that secondary gear is always connected to the reverse gear though. Do you know that for sure, scruff_mcruff?

[/B] i havent seen a 400ex w/ rev personally, but the schematics of the tranny show it to work the same as the tranny pic earlier. with the 2 gears on the shafts always mated then a third idler gear to engage the reverse.

and yes it is a small percentage on my setup, but i make HP and everything adds up in the end. you might pass up a 2% increase now , but with other mods you could see say a 4% increase. you pass up 2 or 3 of those small things in these motors and your leaving a good chunk of power on the table.

[scruff_mcruff]

Originally posted by boosted3g
With straight cut gears there is nearly no loss in power. With the car engines the gears are helical cut to reduse noise and that will rob power. Also in a honda car tranny only the gear that is engaged will spin the rest will not except for 1st and 2nd which are part on the input and the main shafts, they will spin in every gear. The reverse will also disengage in the car trannys. My years of racing a pro fwd honda are finally paying off.

actually all 10 or 12 gears are always spinning. the gear that is engaged is spinning all the others are freewheeling.

and i dont think you should say years of racing, as i dont remember ever seeing your car at any event, and ive been to a couple of them. both with my car then as a part time crew chief on a pretty big car in your class.

[boosted3g]

The car never made an event. It was finished, spent a few weekends making test passes and then sold. My dad runs a toyota service center and i wanted to make the switch into a supra but i never did. I had kids at that point and couldnt do it. A guy in Houston tx bought it and i havent heard anything of it.

Everything your saying your agreeing with me but saying it a different way. By the shafts getting pushed apart i was referring to the shafts moving parallel with each other. Im trying to remember exactly how that reverse gear engaged. On the pic its the only straight cut gear on the shafts. I thought the gear slid up but im not certain. I know that gear slide into place only when in reverse though.

What car did you drive or work for? My buddy that still races but his is for sale now. He owns the del sohn racing car. I think he has gone 9.0 at 168 on gas. The whole sport is taking a dive and its sad.

[scruff_mcruff]

Originally posted by boosted3g

What car did you drive or work for? My buddy that still races but his is for sale now. He owns the del sohn racing car. I think he has gone 9.0 at 168 on gas. The whole sport is taking a dive and its sad. I own the L&B crx and worked with the SSC hot rod civic. and Harry knows who i am since Im the one who worked with G-force to design the setup in his car.

[boosted3g]

I havent seen your CRX because ive been out of the game so long but if your tied in with G-force im sure it flies. Its a nice set up and i really like the shifter. I actually talked wtih you guys about the straight cut gear sets probably around 3 years ago. If you ever went with Harry down to Franks you probably saw me there. I was there nearly every night for 2 years trying to get the car finsished. He is the one who bult both our cars and at the same time. Ive known him for years but his days are numbered in racing, he just had a son right before thanksgiving.

[xc_251]

But I'd expect these to make tiny differences that would be difficult to measure. I can think all sorts of other sources of drag that could easily match and/or eclipse the reverse gear for robbing HP.

while true, and that could possibly solve the original posters question, i believe the discrepency was does the reverse gear rob hp, while i personally dont think it does on a real life level, i believe we are talking about two transmissions in good condition, nothing causing extra drag.



About the Honda car engine example: I'm suspicious that's an apples to oranges comparison. Surely 5th gear in a car is far more substantial than a 400EX's reverse gear. And are the trannys of a car and an EX even arranged the same? Perhaps on a front wheel drive car but I think many manual car tranny's use concentric input and output shafts. My point is that what produces a certain result on a Honda car might not mean the same thing (or to the same degree) regarding a 400EX's reverse.

i agree completely



But even if there was some kind of 1:1 comparison to be made, I'm guessing any Honda car that's had 5th removed is making some HP. So 5-7HP might be 2%? If the EX's reverse gear is costing 2%, that would be what--30hp vs. 30.5hp? Something like that? We could find that much difference between engines that rolled off the assembly line right next to each other.

while this is a decent example, this would be assuming this honda car had approximatly 300hp, correct me if im wrong but i was picturing a honda civic? i doubt these civics the poster was refering to are pushing 250 actually probably closer to 200. that would mean about 3 or 3.5% which, is a whopping 1 hp, which assuming these bikes are of equal weight and riders of equal skill could make a measurable difference. but, we are talking real world, these riders are of different skill levels and these bikes are of different weights, plus, i would be willing to bet the tires where not off equad tread, given all these factors 1 hp does not mean sh*t.

My whole point here is that I don't believe the 05+'s reverse gear slows them down by any amount worth considering. I'd need to see some very persuasive evidence to convince me otherwise.

i could not agree more

[scruff_mcruff]

Originally posted by xc_251
About the Honda car engine example: I'm suspicious that's an apples to oranges comparison. Surely 5th gear in a car is far more substantial than a 400EX's reverse gear. And are the trannys of a car and an EX even arranged the same? Perhaps on a front wheel drive car but I think many manual car tranny's use concentric input and output shafts. My point is that what produces a certain result on a Honda car might not mean the same thing (or to the same degree) regarding a 400EX's reverse.



while this is a decent example, this would be assuming this honda car had approximatly 300hp, correct me if im wrong but i was picturing a honda civic? i doubt these civics the poster was refering to are pushing 250 actually probably closer to 200. that would mean about 3 or 3.5% which, is a whopping 1 hp, which assuming these bikes are of equal weight and riders of equal skill could make a measurable difference. but, we are talking real world, these riders are of different skill levels and these bikes are of different weights, plus, i would be willing to bet the tires where not off equad tread, given all these factors 1 hp does not mean sh*t.

My whole point here is that I don't believe the 05+'s reverse gear slows them down by any amount worth considering. I'd need to see some very persuasive evidence to convince me otherwise.



the point is that its an extra 2 gears always spining and always creating extra drag. the car example just goes to show you what it can do.

no i was refering to my 318 N/A whp crx. so he was pretty close with his numbers. and yes im sure alot of the other parts on the 2 bikes where not equal and we all know the rider skill has a big part in it also, but in this sport people are paying big bucks for 1 and 2 hp gains, so i dont see how this wouldnt fall under the same line.

here's my last bit of evidence for you, Pastrana's SX 125 winning bikes were only 4 speeds, why do you think the factory would do that if it made no difference at all?

[xc_251]

Originally posted by scruff_mcruff
the point is that its an extra 2 gears always spining and always creating extra drag. the car example just goes to show you what it can do.

no i was refering to my 318 N/A whp crx. so he was pretty close with his numbers. and yes im sure alot of the other parts on the 2 bikes where not equal and we all know the rider skill has a big part in it also, but in this sport people are paying big bucks for 1 and 2 hp gains, so i dont see how this wouldnt fall under the same line.

here's my last bit of evidence for you, Pastrana's SX 125 winning bikes were only 4 speeds, why do you think the factory would do that if it made no difference at all?

actually your last point was not for weight savings or extra hp at all, actually they probably lowered the gear ratios and elimintated the 5th gear because it was just unnecesary, for sx you want a very torquey bike that gets up and goes quickly, the top speed dosnt matter really. some 450 dirt bikes came with 4 speeds but the 4 speed tranny severly limits the bikes offroad capabilities, so the bike was changed to a 5 speed to broaden the market it appealed to.


and 1-2 horsepower can make a difference when top pros are pushing bikes to limit, but for 2 kids messing around on some probably stock 400s, i dont think that little bit is going to make much difference

[scruff_mcruff]

Originally posted by xc_251
actually your last point was not for weight savings or extra hp at all, actually they probably lowered the gear ratios and elimintated the 5th gear because it was just unnecesary, for sx you want a very torquey bike that gets up and goes quickly, the top speed dosnt matter really. some 450 dirt bikes came with 4 speeds but the 4 speed tranny severly limits the bikes offroad capabilities, so the bike was changed to a 5 speed to broaden the market it appealed to.


and 1-2 horsepower can make a difference when top pros are pushing bikes to limit, but for 2 kids messing around on some probably stock 400s, i dont think that little bit is going to make much difference
5th and 6th were removed.

and yes it might not make a difference to the people in here, but the guy asked a question and i gave him the answer.

[AnDy7]

I dont think the reverse gear slows it down at all. i have a 07 400 and i dragged my buddy over and over again and he has a 02 and it was tie over and over again and i prolly weigh 50-60 pounds more then he weighs.. and they are both bone stock

[xc_251]

Originally posted by scruff_mcruff
5th and 6th were removed.

and yes it might not make a difference to the people in here, but the guy asked a question and i gave him the answer.

while 2 gears may have been removed the fact remains that if 5 gears are not necessary why would 6 gears be necessary. on a typical professional supercross track, they are in 4th gear into the first corner then 2nd and 3rd through the track until they get back to the strait. and yes i agree completely with your last statement, the guy asked a question he got an answer