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View Full Version : The official "DS450 ride report thread"



scottwvu
12-13-2007, 07:13 PM
Sadly, I can't get mine until tax time. However, when you get yours, PLEASE post a DETAILED ride report for all of us to enjoy!!!

P.S. Punk'd I hope you get your DS sooner than later!!!!:D

Punk'd
12-13-2007, 07:28 PM
Haha

Well it shipped today so I was told it should be here Saturday or Tuesday since we are closed on Mondays!

Unless the truck driver plows off a bridge and into a river preventing me even further to get this darn thing.. Which will most likely happen, but I will for sure let you guys know all details!!

ThePhantomRider
12-14-2007, 09:39 AM
It will be a whole new riding experience for you....

The handling will be crisp and precise, more than you would expect with a light weight front end, you may be a bit fooled at first by it but once you get used to it, you won't want to go back.

Feedback to the handlebars is very subdued, add in the Flexx bars should be much easier on the hands and arms than what you are used to.

The suspension may feel a bit soft at first, that's ok...before you go and start to tweak with the settings, hit some moderate to big stuff and you'll realize that the shocks firm up real nice on the big hits. Better than any other stock machine.

Stock the power is deceiving...the motor feels more electric with a smooth delivery all the way to the top. When you add in a pipe, filter and programmer you will not only add to the peak HP numbers. but add a bunch to the mid and low end power, it truly wakes up more dramatically than any of the other 450's I've ridden.

Some have said it sits high, but that is not really true, the center of gravity is really low, once the rider is on the bike you are sitting as low as any other 450 and again, the progressive nature of the shocks allows for a fair amount of sag.

Finally, enjoy...you have waited for the revolution and look, it's just about Christmas time.....

TPR

12-27-2007, 11:04 AM
TPR do u have one because ur talking like ur an expert on this quad

ThePhantomRider
12-27-2007, 11:23 AM
No I don't have one but I do know most details on this bike, have spent some time with one and outside of certian spec-details can pretty much comment on any part of the quad. If not then I have resources to find the answers.

The information above is a culmination of comments I have heard from a variety of riders with time spent on the other 450's. Again, everyone has what they like and feel most comfortable on, but I do tell people that once you spend enough time getting used to the DS, you'll find going back to the other 450's quite wierd, especially how the front end works. I have ridden sport quads for over 15 years and can attest that their front end works better than any I have ridden before.

TPR

12-27-2007, 06:03 PM
SURE:rolleyes:

Vade
12-27-2007, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by ktm 525xc 696
SURE:rolleyes:

hows that ktm workin out for ya? i just finished reading my new quad magazine and they seem 2 be the real deal

Punk'd
12-27-2007, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by Vade
hows that ktm workin out for ya? i just finished reading my new quad magazine and they seem 2 be the real deal

He doesnt really own one. He is just some kid going around on this website starting trouble.

We all learned to kind of ignore him;)

12-28-2007, 07:52 AM
OK ill take pocs today and figure out how to post them



and the quad is FAST and light just needs to be rejetted its way too lean but mebe it will get better when im done breakin it in

ThePhantomRider
12-28-2007, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by ktm 525xc 696
SURE:rolleyes:

You really shouldn't comment on things you know nothing about.

I think that the KTM is an exceptional machine as well, I have said that numerous times.

What you fail to realize is that while KTM went back and utilized a 1985 Quadracer front end design, the DS 450's front end design and geometry is way beyond what every other quad today offers.

If you know anything about steering and suspension geometry, you'd know that the further away you place the centerline of the tire from the kingpin inclination (That's the imaginary line that connects the upper and lower balljoints through the spindle creating the pivot axis for the steering plane) you end up not only creating extra stress on the axle and bearings, but cause the tires to steer around the center axis as opposed to pivoting on the axis itself creating a more precise steering feel and geometry. You get a more true feedback through the handle bars and that allows the use of a shorter drag link for the tie rod to connect to. All this allows for easier steering with much less feedback to the rider.

Another effect of this is that as the suspension progresses through is complete stroke, the tires have less toe in/out change or bumpseer as it's improperly called which again, improves the precise nature of the whole system.....

This is why you read time and again experts advise against flipping the front rims, adding spacers or the bolt on "widening" kits that use stock arms but gain width by increasing the distance between the inboard a-arm pivot points. Just look at any race car and you'll see (Or not see is the point) that the spindle is tucked up inside the wheel as much as possible to make the steering work as it should.

The only reason no one to this point had done this was the simple fact that dirt is more forgiving and will allow for these inaccuracies to still be prevalant, but accepted. Bet your bottom dollar that at least one of the Japaneese companies will have a similar setup when they revamp their current models.

Just wait till you see someone use a DS for TT races, they will really feel the effects on their blue grooved courses where precision is paramount.

TPR

450raider
12-28-2007, 10:30 AM
wow TPR, i learn somethin new everytime i read a post of yours :macho

hasbeenttduner
12-28-2007, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
What you fail to realize is that while KTM went back and utilized a 1985 Quadracer front end design,

Just wait till you see someone use a DS for TT races, they will really feel the effects on their blue grooved courses where precision is paramount.

TPR

Come on TPR!
The ktm front end is 300 times better then that old quadracer p.o.x.
I agree with most if not all of the rest of your post.
I do agree that the ds kingpin location setup should shine on a tt/supermoto.You would have to have a top dog on it though because the best will still beat it with thier rides.From what has been posted about the ds power curve it may also run well on tt type tracks.They should hook up goodman,hitt,batista,or creech to run one on the tt's next year.

ThePhantomRider
12-28-2007, 10:52 AM
True it is better, but my point was that design has moved the pivot points closer together to improve steering through the suspension cycle, they moved it out and I'll tell you why. They gleaned some of their frame design off of Polaris. Polaris has been able to make this work to an extent using the PRO steering system which allows for a more constant steering feel because the tie rods follow a similar arc to the a-arms. It's a poor mans rack and pinion setup. The problem they have is that there are many moving parts to wear out.

KTM used a standard stem to spindle design and managed to keep the feel close to the other 450's to their credit, but I think they could have gone that extra step to really make the KTM shine.


I do love that 525 motor though, if I had to get the KTM, it would be the 525. Plus I happen to like the look of it....funny, if you look at the front fender design, it's similar to somthing....oh yeah a modern LT 250 Quadracer!!! :D


TPR

Punk'd
12-28-2007, 01:21 PM
Anyone who owns a DS (like myself) can tell you the front end design makes a worlds diffrence. Everything is so precise. Hitting a bump is no longer a huge deal. For example terrain I've known for years at my farm thats rocky and known to break the handle bars from my hand doesnt anymore because of the new front end design. If you think its all bull.. The ride says it all.

Vade
12-28-2007, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
True it is better, but my point was that design has moved the pivot points closer together to improve steering through the suspension cycle, they moved it out and I'll tell you why. They gleaned some of their frame design off of Polaris. Polaris has been able to make this work to an extent using the PRO steering system which allows for a more constant steering feel because the tie rods follow a similar arc to the a-arms. It's a poor mans rack and pinion setup. The problem they have is that there are many moving parts to wear out.

KTM used a standard stem to spindle design and managed to keep the feel close to the other 450's to their credit, but I think they could have gone that extra step to really make the KTM shine.


I do love that 525 motor though, if I had to get the KTM, it would be the 525. Plus I happen to like the look of it....funny, if you look at the front fender design, it's similar to somthing....oh yeah a modern LT 250 Quadracer!!! :D


TPR

looks like they went the extra step

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUXQYZpmjEk

joedirt
12-28-2007, 10:50 PM
Nice video of the KTM.

GE4x4
12-29-2007, 06:23 AM
Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
True it is better, but my point was that design has moved the pivot points closer together to improve steering through the suspension cycle, they moved it out and I'll tell you why. They gleaned some of their frame design off of Polaris. Polaris has been able to make this work to an extent using the PRO steering system which allows for a more constant steering feel because the tie rods follow a similar arc to the a-arms. It's a poor mans rack and pinion setup. The problem they have is that there are many moving parts to wear out.

KTM used a standard stem to spindle design and managed to keep the feel close to the other 450's to their credit, but I think they could have gone that extra step to really make the KTM shine.


I do love that 525 motor though, if I had to get the KTM, it would be the 525. Plus I happen to like the look of it....funny, if you look at the front fender design, it's similar to somthing....oh yeah a modern LT 250 Quadracer!!! :D


TPR

The very few extra parts in the Outlaw for the steerring is well worth it in my mind. Bump steer is near none existing. You race a Outlaw next to any 450 (have not rode the DS) and the bump steer is night and day difference between them. I had a guy who had a YFZ450 switch and I could not believe how bad the bump steer was. Every thing the front hit just yanked the bars. Didn't take long to get back on my ride. Then he could not believe how smooth the steering was and din't want to switch back.I've raced many XC races without even a dampner as it is that good. Plus you will notice there refined the pro steerring in the Outlaw compared to the Pred making it lighter and even less moving parts.

ThePhantomRider
12-29-2007, 11:09 AM
Again, the KTM is a nice machine, they went the extra steps with great shocks, chrome-moly a-arms, heim joints and magura 4 piston breaks...anyone can slap great parts onto a quad and make it better, but those parts simply help to overcome the less than optimal geometry.

I have ridden a Polaris with the original version of the PRO system and it did feel real good...if they had went ahead and made the spindles like the DS, it would only be better.

Just to shine a bit of light, the breaks on the DS are made by Willwood....one of the top names in high performance racing so while they are 2 piston, they are one the best systems available....

Again, between the DS and KTM, they have made the other companies really re-think their future advancements in the segment.

etccb
12-29-2007, 12:08 PM
canam ds salesman of the year=tpr

pred174
12-29-2007, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
[Just to shine a bit of light, the breaks on the DS are made by Willwood....one of the top names in high performance racing so while they are 2 piston, they are one the best systems available....

[/B]

polaris also runs the same breaking system

I guess i would just like to see a shoot out between both 450's my guess the ds would win but would beat the outlaw as bad as people would think

maconu
12-30-2007, 04:56 PM
Took my ds450 for its first ride today at ET mortorpark. I started racing last year on my LTZ400 with mucho mods...

I have the pink/black wire cut, lid off, and baffle out...

Had no problems starting when cold or hot..

Bumps were much easier on the arms / wrists. I didn't have any problems hitting anything at the track.

It certaily doens't like the lower RPMs like my ltz did, but once you get to just below mid RPM it really lites up and keeps on going to the end.

Steering was very crisp when you needed to change lanes in a straight. When in turns it wants to prop up on the outside wheels even with getting over the bike but this is a stock 46" bike. When I go 50" this won't be an issue.

Handling in the air was amazing. I could correct nearly anything that was happening. If you got on the gas to stop the nose diving it had an immediate effect. Even when I got off the gas it produced a reaction.

The stock shocks are also amazing. I was hitting a ~60 ft'er and came up short a couple of times and it was a soft landing. I even over shot it slightly once and had no problems.

I'm really happy with the bike and can't wait to get it to 50" for this race season.....

Dale512
12-30-2007, 10:48 PM
pred174, Polaris might use a Wilwood Braking system but its far from the same.

pred174
12-31-2007, 12:22 PM
they are both dual piston calipers and both run steel braided brake lines...as far as how they are setup they might be different

ThePhantomRider
01-02-2008, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by etccb
canam ds salesman of the year=tpr

Now if I only got paid for doing it.....

"Hey Can-Am, how bout throwin me a bone here....I'd settle for a DS 450x.....Not a bad wage to pay for over a year's public relation work we're only talkin about $4.00 per hour...."

LOL like that will happen.


I simply have believed in the product since I started to really follow it's progress. When the funds are available I will have one.


TPR

ScottB125
01-02-2008, 08:39 PM
I held off buying anything back in the summer..... I almost bought a Kawa. I'm going to give it a few more months and if they look good, I'll get one.


TPR...I always thought you worked for Can-Am...lol. Yeah, he deserves a free bike.

EvilEwok
01-05-2008, 05:51 PM
Looks like atvriders hasn't changed over the years. :scary:

rrguy
01-09-2008, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
You really shouldn't comment on things you know nothing about.

I think that the KTM is an exceptional machine as well, I have said that numerous times.

What you fail to realize is that while KTM went back and utilized a 1985 Quadracer front end design, the DS 450's front end design and geometry is way beyond what every other quad today offers.

If you know anything about steering and suspension geometry, you'd know that the further away you place the centerline of the tire from the kingpin inclination (That's the imaginary line that connects the upper and lower balljoints through the spindle creating the pivot axis for the steering plane) you end up not only creating extra stress on the axle and bearings, but cause the tires to steer around the center axis as opposed to pivoting on the axis itself creating a more precise steering feel and geometry. You get a more true feedback through the handle bars and that allows the use of a shorter drag link for the tie rod to connect to. All this allows for easier steering with much less feedback to the rider.

Another effect of this is that as the suspension progresses through is complete stroke, the tires have less toe in/out change or bumpseer as it's improperly called which again, improves the precise nature of the whole system.....

This is why you read time and again experts advise against flipping the front rims, adding spacers or the bolt on "widening" kits that use stock arms but gain width by increasing the distance between the inboard a-arm pivot points. Just look at any race car and you'll see (Or not see is the point) that the spindle is tucked up inside the wheel as much as possible to make the steering work as it should.

The only reason no one to this point had done this was the simple fact that dirt is more forgiving and will allow for these inaccuracies to still be prevalant, but accepted. Bet your bottom dollar that at least one of the Japaneese companies will have a similar setup when they revamp their current models.

Just wait till you see someone use a DS for TT races, they will really feel the effects on their blue grooved courses where precision is paramount.

TPR

BRP made several design changes that will probably prove to be good. Including steering to the DS450, but sounds like more than just the offset to me?

Even the little I know about suspension & steering involves much more. So there is actually a heck of allot more to steering geometry than that. lol There is allot of lose vs gain. Camber Caster Toe keeping this all ideal for the situation is effected by several things. There are several Design issues from the frame out plus another couple chapters. Not to mention the suspension effect the steering effort, response, feedback, bump-steer, stability. Thats why some Companies (Laeger Protrax) came up with a front end not just aarms. Maybe gave a reason for Elka to come up with the track system? Probably cause whats desired will also change on what type of operation the machine will be doing ( trail vs Mx racing ) not to mention just from dirt to asphalt. The steering on other oem machines is not always lacking it was designed that way for a reason ( to suit most buyers). There are a heck of allot more 450r's on the trail than on the track. I don't think the KFX450 has a narrow frame by accident? Old school? Compare some things on the 250r like spindles to a kfx400 & tell me what you prefer? If a rider wants to alter a machine for a specific kind of racing thats great for the racer. Yet most people don't understand what they are doing!! or the potential.

ThePhantomRider
01-09-2008, 05:31 PM
Yeah the geometry change is more than just offset because you are pushing the tires through an arc, vs pivoting on the axis so even if you make the offset equal to the DS setup then it will be similar but still not ideal and you still get the excess kickback to the bars.


TPR