Fastest On The Sand [Archive]

gregw338

12-12-2007, 02:37 PM

THIS PAST SUMMER I SPENT ALOT OF TIME AT LITTLE SAHARA IN OK. IT SEEMS EVERY TIME I WENT THERE WAS SOMEONE ON A YFZ450 WITH THE CAM MOD SMOKING EVERYBODY ON THE STRIP. NO ONE COULD EVEN GET CLOSE TO HIM UNLESS IT WAS ANOTHER YFZ WITH THE CAM MOD. IN 100 YDS THEY WOULD HAVE 10 - 15 BIKE LENGTHS ON EVERYBODY IT WAS UNBELIEVABLE, THEY WERE EVEN SMOKING THE ALCHOL BANSHEES. I TALKED TO A COUPLE GUYS ON THE YFZ & ALL THEY SAY THEY HAD DONE WAS CAM MOD & K&N FILTER WITH STOCK GEARRING, HECK THEY EVEN HAD FULL STOCK EXHAUST. SO THAT MADE ME HATE THE YFZ EVEN THAT MUCH MORE. ANYWAYS I CALLED AND TALKED WITH ALLEN AT CT RACING AND HE ASSURED ME THAT THE CT 453 KIT HE TALKED ME IN TO PURCHASING FOR MY Z400 WOULD TOTALLY RAIN ON THE YFZ RIDERS PARADE AT THE STRIP. LONG STORY SHORT I WAS ROBBED BY CT, THE YFZ PULLED MY BRITCHES DOWN, SPANKED MY A** & MADE ME LIKE IT. ABOUT 6 MOS AGO I PURCHASED AN 89' 250R JUST CAUSE I HAVE ALWAYS WANTED ONE SO I'VE TURNED TO THE OL 250R TO HELP REDEEM MYSELF. I AM AWAITING THE ARRIVAL OF AN ESR330 WITH 3MM CRANK, 2001 CR IGNITION & 38MM TMX CARB. HOW WELL DO YOU EXPERIENCED BIG BORE RIDERS THINK THIS WILL HOLD UP NEXT YEAR AT THE STRIP? HOPEFULLY I WILL BE DOING THE SPANKING IF NOT MY WIFE WILL PROBABLY BE SPANKING ME IN THE FACE WITH A BELT FOR WAISTING OVER 6K ON 2 DIFFERENT QUADS FOR NOTHING. WORSE YET, SHE MAY EVEN LEAVE ME FOR ONE OF THE GUYS RIDING THE YFZ. GOT MY FINGERS CROSSED

250r4life

12-12-2007, 04:06 PM

on my buddies z434 i can keep up with a lot of piped YFZs... i do think some of it is riding ability, but i was surprised how fast the z434 was... your 453 should have been pretty quick...

i dunno... whenever i hear stuff like this, it makes me wonder if its really the bike and not the rider (no offense). there are tons of shops around town that are always full of bikes getting work done, and im at the dunes all the time and cant ever seem to find these fast bikes that i saw getting work done in the city...

which leads me to think that people just dont know how to ride them...

ThePhantomRider

12-12-2007, 04:29 PM

Ok, so these YFZ riders claim they only have a cam-mod....well that seems real fishy since you also claim they had stock exhausts....

A cam alone may make a bit of power for you, but not a ton. Most of what a cam change is, is changing how the power is delivered, and where the peak will occur. You can dial in bottom end, top end, mellow spread over the entire power curve or a spikey hit in a particular location.

Now as far as I know, CT is reputable and I have ridden a LTZ 453 and it was easliy as fast as basic mod YFZ's, and I clock in at 220+ pounds....

Also, when you look at race motors the pro's run, the YFZ is typically underpowered compared to say Honda....I think that they typically run at a 4hp deficet at most motor builders.

TPR

gregw338

12-12-2007, 04:41 PM

No offense taken, I sat and watched these guys wax everybody all day long one day. Dont get me wrong that the z453 aint fast, it flat out gets it compared to stock. I guess overall it was worth the money. I have pissed alot of 450r, banshee & raptor riders off even alot of yfz's. Only thing that I could not compete with was a yfz with cam mod. The sad thing is that a couple of the guys I talked to have not even rode that much. One guy said that he lived locally and all his buddies rode so he went out and bought a new yfz did the cam mod & now its like he is king of the dunes. I dont know if you have ever seen the yfz run with the cam mod & high comp piston but it is unreal. Me and a couple of buddies were sitting down at the dyno machine and some guy from missouri riding a heavy modded banshee (cheetah big bore, custom drag pipes, extended swinger, etc) shows up talking sh** about how he is fixing to show everybody on the strip how to drag, especially the guys on the yfz's. Needless say after a few runs he loaded his banshee up and went home. I just cant see the yfz being so fast with just one small mod. After watching him chew the banshee up it made me a believer as much as I hate the yfz. Hopefully with the help of ESR and the trusty ol 250r I will be able to hand the yfz guys there a**

Dave83

12-12-2007, 05:11 PM

If they were puliing that many lengths in that short of distance,Im calling b.s. on just a cam mod.It would take a highly modded 450 of any brand to stay with a lightly modded banshee or midly modded 250R in a sand drag.Im thinking they may have been on nitrous or had a really big, big bore kit.Even on a slow day at Sahara,there are some fast banshees around.Maybe you need to get in good with those guys and see whats really going on.when you get your R up and running,you shouldnt have any trouble with a cam modded 450

250r4life

12-12-2007, 05:49 PM

well a cheetah cub banshee with drag pipes will beat your 330R, so sounds like you've went and wasted money again...

gregw338

12-12-2007, 06:12 PM

Thanks dave83 you sure made me feel better about my investment. I guess if it comes down to it we will just have to see how fast those yfz guys can ride with broken arms if you know what I mean. ha ha ha

criminalpoet

12-12-2007, 06:22 PM

Yea definitely sounds fishey to me! My 1 Dir Racing R spanks modded 450's all day long and it isnt even a big bore or aftermarket cylinder, just a properly built stock cylinder 89 long rod motor! You should be able to beat them with what you have coming, however keep in mind that ESR is fairly conservative when it comes to their port work. So you could easily send that cylinder out to a shop thats neck deep in drag racing and get a lot more out of it.

In 300-500' sand drags its not hard to take 450's, but if your trying to race one down a 10 mile long dirt road your going to need some really tall gearing. Because if those 4 pokes have 1 thing going for them its mph.

Dave83

12-12-2007, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by 250r4life
well a cheetah cub banshee with drag pipes will beat your 330R, so sounds like you've went and wasted money again...
Haha,not if cant even beat a basically stock 450:confused:
Thats the part of the original posts that casts the most doubt on what mods the YFZ guys were really running.And as for the 10 mile race,just keep pushing the fourstroke until it spits its valves out the exhaust;)

mineralgrey01gt

12-12-2007, 06:41 PM

dude, they have more than just the cam mod and high compression piston, sorry but its true, theres no way that a yfz should pull a highly modded banshee. Ive seen 310 250r's outrun cam modded yfz's. Hell my friend told me when I get my 310 motor on my 250r he will not race me because ill pull him hard and he has a cam modded yfz450

Scott-300ex

12-12-2007, 07:19 PM

Some guy told me he had a z400 and he was sick of the 450's beating him and he went to a shop. The guy said he'd make it a 499cc and it will put out 100hp, I'm like BS! Haha.

If a 330 don't beat them you could jump up to a 370, I know a guy who has one of those and it is fast. Yeh don't forget gearing and paddles.

And port work, I would recomend a full top end port, and keep her reved up and she'll pull. You could run alky too, but you gotta jet for that.

If your sick of loosing, get a drag frame and throw a built sled motor in there, that should stomp them.

My buddy that builds motors has a drag frame banshee and banshee motor and he's the fastest at the track with like a 3.90 in 300 ft. Get a guy that knows wut he's doing and get a top end port, I'd say.

250r4life

12-12-2007, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by Dave83
Haha,not if cant even beat a basically stock 450:confused:
Thats the part of the original posts that casts the most doubt on what mods the YFZ guys were really running.And as for the 10 mile race,just keep pushing the fourstroke until it spits its valves out the exhaust;)

are you dumb?

:huh

Dave83

12-12-2007, 07:43 PM

No are you.That was sarcasm,ever heard of it??????Geez,lighten up.

Dave83

12-12-2007, 07:47 PM

Besides,he never mentioned his R out running a trick shee.

danhung11

12-12-2007, 08:27 PM

I have personally witnessed a 70lbs 8th grader with a stock 400EX....with the baffle taken out and a smaller counter sprocket.... He was waxing YFZ's right when they came out...

Go figure...

In your example about....they might be fibbin...how can you see which pisotn, cam, flywheel, etc is in the bike???

These posts as such are freaking ridiculos...

Try this...go on the track and see who ends up winning the moto.:rolleyes:

machwon

12-12-2007, 09:48 PM

Gregw338, I've seen a couple of those 450's you're talking about and yes they all say there stock. They can be made killer but they have way more $$ invested than you think. The bottom line is a 450 done up right will look stock and make 40 ft-lbs of torque at a very low rpm and thus it is very fast out of the hole. Most R's out there will struggle to get that kind of torque, there usually in the mid/lower 30's at best. That type of 450 will also put up close to if no 60 hp, that also would be one ^#!! of a 250R.

As I've seen it at the dunes you will prety much need a more purpose built straight line R (ext. swingarm) on alky to hand it too this guy.

250r4life

12-12-2007, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by Dave83
Besides,he never mentioned his R out running a trick shee.

youre right he didnt...

however, he did ask if he would be able to hang with his 330R... and if the cheetah cub banshees cant, then the answer is NO

gregw338

12-13-2007, 05:51 AM

I appreciate all the info guys

cataway

12-13-2007, 07:49 AM

gregw338

i dont see what tire your using in your sig . the wrong tire can kill ya . i'm not going to say my Z is incredibly fast but i have beaten
some that i was not supposed to beat and i have to say its the tire i use over the tire their using that gave me the advantage.

gregw338

12-13-2007, 08:34 AM

At first I was racing with the Ams aerospeed and was getting waxed by everybody. I was being beat by everybody on the line, by the time I got off the line and really got going the race was already over. I did some research then bought some 21" 8 paddle haulers and after that the only ones that I could not beat were the cam modded yfz's. I would say the haulers made up about 5 - 6 bike lenghts in 75 - 100yd race. Will the 330 stroker be able to pull 21" 8 paddle haulers with stock gearing just fine. What is your input, should I stay with stock gearing, gear down or even gear up a little. Any info would help

ThePhantomRider

12-13-2007, 08:46 AM

Yeah, the guy with the Cheetah Banshee either couldn't ride or again, didn't have what he claimed because you're talking big HP numbers on those.

Like I said before, I think these guys are yankin your chain because full MX YFZ's are running mid 60's HP at best, this is Pro Level motors, given that fact, they should have no business beating a properly ridden Cheetah Shee'.

The torque thing could have some merit though. If they gear a bit taller and have the muscle to launch in 2nd gear they may be able to get enough of a holeshot to pull it off, but in my 25 years of sand experience, those well built Shee's should reel them in right quick.

I have to say though, you got me thinkin, while I plan on gettin a DS 450, I started to think about getting a project 250r and slap a 330 in it for fun....Could almost take a stock 250r for about $2200 and add all the go fast goodies, great suspension and lots of bling for the price of some of the newer 450's....

Now what if you could put a 370r with a properly ported head into the DS ALTEC chassis....that could be sweet....gotta change the chain drive side though.

TPR

cataway

12-13-2007, 08:48 AM

to be honest with you i feel 8 paddles are just to much tire . i run 20X10X8- 6 paddle , i start in 2nd gear and it just amazes me how often i get the hole shot. there's only one other tire i would have ,and that would be padle prats 6 paddle ,but a bit pricey for me

danhung11

12-13-2007, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
Yeah, the guy with the Cheetah Banshee either couldn't ride or again, didn't have what he claimed because you're talking big HP numbers on those.

Like I said before, I think these guys are yankin your chain because full MX YFZ's are running mid 60's HP at best, this is Pro Level motors, given that fact, they should have no business beating a properly ridden Cheetah Shee'.

The torque thing could have some merit though. If they gear a bit taller and have the muscle to launch in 2nd gear they may be able to get enough of a holeshot to pull it off, but in my 25 years of sand experience, those well built Shee's should reel them in right quick.

I have to say though, you got me thinkin, while I plan on gettin a DS 450, I started to think about getting a project 250r and slap a 330 in it for fun....Could almost take a stock 250r for about $2200 and add all the go fast goodies, great suspension and lots of bling for the price of some of the newer 450's....

Now what if you could put a 370r with a properly ported head into the DS ALTEC chassis....that could be sweet....gotta change the chain drive side though.

TPR

Or you could buy this 87 roller that I have and I also have a Pro-X 310 Cylinder that I will cut a deal on if you take it all...

The cylinder is an older style... I have matching piston, spacer, etc.etc...

It is ready to bolt on to a bottom end. The roller only needs a motor and air system, carb, etc...

Let me know if it interests you...

ThePhantomRider

12-13-2007, 03:25 PM

Thanks for the offer, won't be for a bit till I would get started.

The AMS Aerospeed tires would have surely killed you. I have read nothing positive about them....in a drad only scenario the Padla Brats are awesome but spendy....

I'm not much of a drag guy, I like a great all around bike that I can race at the hill and be competative...nothing more.

TPR

criminalpoet

12-13-2007, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by cataway
to be honest with you i feel 8 paddles are just to much tire . i run 20X10X8- 6 paddle , i start in 2nd gear and it just amazes me how often i get the hole shot. there's only one other tire i would have ,and that would be padle prats 6 paddle ,but a bit pricey for me

Ive ran 6 and 8 paddle skat tracs on mine and I prefer the 8's! Just depends on the power output of the motor and gearing.

cataway

12-13-2007, 08:11 PM

and of course how much swing arm ya have.

safe to say ya have to setup for conditions, were i ride the sand is all most all ways wet, even so from what i have seen if ya can go to a wider tire with 6 paddles, and keep the weight down, its a defiant advantage, of coarse parting with $450. for a pair of them is not some thing i'm willing to do

atvmxr

12-14-2007, 09:05 AM

or you could get an HRD. so long as you can hang on and/or not flip it over backwards, it should wax everything short of drag sleds ;)

Im hearing hp numbers anywhere from mid 70s to mid 80s. all I know is that this thing is BY FAR the fastest quad I have ever ridden, havent even been able to use 5th gear with it....

danhung11

12-14-2007, 09:38 AM

Take it on the track....

atvmxr

12-14-2007, 09:53 AM

you mean MX track? I need nerfs and to get more used to this thing first. its a handfull and then some... :macho

but ultimately thats my plan to MX it: get the holeshot and check out

ThePhantomRider

12-14-2007, 12:44 PM

Man I remember the days when my buddy and I were the original hill shooter jockies back in 1981.....We were 10 years old our dad's had to of the baddest 250r's on the sand....One was the 20th off the production line the other was 27. Both had extensive work including the famed 300 kit with some great porting, lightened flywheels the whole nine yards. Suspension was completely reworked and both ran hand fabricated extended aluminum swingarms. The bikes were custom and very light and when me and my buddy were on them there was no one that could touch us....

Of course the sand was smoother, and the hills much steeper than the whooped out anthills they are today...

TPR

Eddiesanders250

12-18-2007, 11:00 PM

Cancle your order with esr and get the sabertooth 500 kit. This will smoke almost anything on the sand. If you dont know about this kit check it out. Go to their web site and watch them smoke all banchees. and if this does not work you can always build a turbo bombusa (ds650 with suzuki hayabusa motor) capable of over 300 hp. Bombusa would be my dream ride.

atvmxr

12-19-2007, 08:15 AM

screw it, just put in one of those all aluminum 500ci V8 pro stock motors, those make about 2000hp.... :rolleyes:

:devil:

bubbag

12-22-2007, 02:30 PM

I have a 88R w/ wiseco piston,38mm keihin,cr ignition,fmf fatty system,air box eliminator. and I beat a yfz 450 two years ago until I was maxxed out in 6th then he passed me. both had new tires and he weighed less.. and he has exhaust and cam mod...

450rJam

12-22-2007, 03:16 PM

havent seen the yfz's your speaking of (I hit the ls ok 4-5 times per year)

there are usually a couple banshee's that pull everything, then a bunch of 450's and rappys, followed by some 250r's and built 400's

but............
as quick as the yfz is, its not going to be beating the built shee's
and its not any quicker than a simularly built 450

this was halloween weekend, yfz's 450r's usually so close that the rider skill is the diff in win or lose

im on the black R w/red jersey (@ 200 lbs) with just hrc/rossier

Scott-300ex

12-24-2007, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
Man I remember the days when my buddy and I were the original hill shooter jockies back in 1981.....We were 10 years old our dad's had to of the baddest 250r's on the sand....One was the 20th off the production line the other was 27. Both had extensive work including the famed 300 kit with some great porting, lightened flywheels the whole nine yards. Suspension was completely reworked and both ran hand fabricated extended aluminum swingarms. The bikes were custom and very light and when me and my buddy were on them there was no one that could touch us....

Of course the sand was smoother, and the hills much steeper than the whooped out anthills they are today...

TPR

Just sayin man, they didn't make 250r's in 1981.

k265r

12-24-2007, 12:55 PM

the atc250r was released in 1981

TheNewn

12-25-2007, 05:59 PM

Yep, back when they were still air cooled monsters. like blasters plus 50CC's and minus 1 wheel.

250r4life

12-26-2007, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by Scott-300ex
Just sayin man, they didn't make 250r's in 1981.

just add another to your tally...

:devil:

regg187

12-26-2007, 10:46 AM

Yeah, definetly strike 2.

The 82 was scarey fast, scarey cuz it was way too fast for its chassis and suspension.

Someone is tellin this guy a lie, cammed 450 beatin heavily modded Shee's, What do they smoke out there?LSD?

The thing probably has a huge piston and a fogger NOS kit too, if it's doin what he said... 10-15 bike lengths in 75-100 yds

SOOOOOOO it's pulling 60 feet ahead on a 300 foot track (using 4 ft as an avg.) nobody rides that poorly to lose like that, well OK some do but I am giving them the benefit of the doubt that they didn't ride that small yellow bus during their formative years.

Spend your money how you like, but did you ever meet a serious drag racer that told the WHOLE truth about what they had in their ride?
If you want to be one of the fastest on sand get one of those GSX-R motors add nitrious and a big Turbo. put it in a Shee frame, with a long swing arm and practice.
You will win eventually!